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Re: [SCA Newcomers] Re: Period names

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  • Kristine Elliott
    ... The example of this I love to drag out is the French heroine Joan of Arc. Obviously of is Modern English, and possibly less obviously, Joan is an English
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 26, 2007
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      On 7/26/07, Sara L Uckelman <liana@...> wrote:
      > Quoth Pardus:
      > > If there is documentation, such as an excerpt from a historical book or
      > > record that gives conceivable proof of a period name, is that usually
      > > acceptable as registerable?
      >
      > It depends on the type of book.
      >
      > History text books in general are unfortunately not very useful.
      > This is because most authors, for modern audiences, convert all
      > of the names to their standard modern forms. So history books
      > can tell you that *some* form of a name was in use at a certain
      > time in a certain place, but not *what* form of the name was.
      > Often, this can be an excellent place to start your research,
      > but a poor place to end your research.

      The example of this I love to drag out is the French heroine Joan of
      Arc. Obviously "of" is Modern English, and possibly less obviously,
      Joan is an English given name. Modern French books refer to her as
      Jeanne d'Arc. That's at least a French name. However, a look at a
      biography of her that included photos of documents referring to her in
      period show that she signed things as "Jehanne" (or perhaps her
      secretary signed them on her behalf) and that the written records of
      her trial referred to her as "Jehanne la Pucelle". So, at the very
      least, modern French histories tend to modernize Jehanne to Jeanne.
      They also appear to have chosen to use assign to her her father's
      epithet, which she may or may not have actually used in her lifetime.

      Such are some of the pitfalls of depending on history books for name
      documentation.

      Scolastica
      --
      http://www.geocities.com/souriete/

      If you can't get rid of them ugly old skeletons in the closet, at least teach
      'em how to dance funny. Billy C. Wirtz
    • Pardus
      My sources, or rather the sources for the name Pardus, all came from Google Book. 1. The Memoirs of James, Marquis of Montrose, 1639-1650
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 27, 2007
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        My sources, or rather the sources for the name Pardus, all came from
        Google Book.

        1. "The Memoirs of James, Marquis of Montrose, 1639-1650"
        http://books.google.com/books?id=BlkJAAAAIAAJ

        2. "The Spottiswoode Miscellany: A Collection Of Original Papers and
        Tracts, Illustrative Chiefly of the Civil and Ecclesiastical History of
        Scotland"
        http://books.google.com/books?id=1FgJAAAAIAAJ

        3. "Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain
        and Ireland: Papal Letters Vol IV A.D. 1362-1404
        http://books.google.com/books?id=iwAcVavkDuAC

        I believe that books one and two are referring to the same person,
        however the surname has been spelled differently. (Which is exactly the
        sort of thing you said happens)

        - Pardus

        Sara L Uckelman wrote:
        >
        > It depends on the type of book.
        >
        > History text books in general are unfortunately not very useful.
        > This is because most authors, for modern audiences, convert all
        > of the names to their standard modern forms. So history books
        > can tell you that *some* form of a name was in use at a certain
        > time in a certain place, but not *what* form of the name was.
        > Often, this can be an excellent place to start your research,
        > but a poor place to end your research.
        >
        > The types of books and sources that are useful are ones which
        > provide editions of period documents and records with little or
        > no changes. For example, research libraries often have books
        > with marriage registers or taxation lists, and usually the
        > editors are good and tell you what modification to the names
        > they've done. (Look for an "editorial note" or "editorial
        > conventions" section of the introductory material.) If the
        > names haven't been altered from the form they were found in
        > in the original text, then you've got a stellar source.
        >
        > -Aryanhwy
        >
        > --
        > vita sine literis mors est
        > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/ <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/>
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • Sara L Uckelman
        ... Googlebooks are currently only available to people in the US. Can you list the authors and publication info of these books? They look interesting and I d
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 27, 2007
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          Quoth Pardus:
          > 1. "The Memoirs of James, Marquis of Montrose, 1639-1650"
          > 2. "The Spottiswoode Miscellany: A Collection Of Original Papers and
          > Tracts, Illustrative Chiefly of the Civil and Ecclesiastical History of
          > Scotland"
          > 3. "Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain
          > and Ireland: Papal Letters Vol IV A.D. 1362-1404

          Googlebooks are currently only available to people in the US. Can
          you list the authors and publication info of these books? They
          look interesting and I'd like to see if I can get them via my
          library.

          > I believe that books one and two are referring to the same person,
          > however the surname has been spelled differently. (Which is exactly the
          > sort of thing you said happens)

          Yup. It sounds like you've definitely stumbled upon some useful
          material here.

          -Aryanhwy (in Drachenwald)


          --
          vita sine literis mors est
          http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
        • Pardus
          ... T would be my pleasure! 1. The Memoirs of James, Marquis of Montrose, 1639-1650 By George Wishart Published 1893 Longmans, Green and Co 2. The
          Message 4 of 17 , Jul 27, 2007
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            Sara L Uckelman wrote:
            >
            >
            > Quoth Pardus:
            > > 1. "The Memoirs of James, Marquis of Montrose, 1639-1650"
            > > 2. "The Spottiswoode Miscellany: A Collection Of Original Papers and
            > > Tracts, Illustrative Chiefly of the Civil and Ecclesiastical History of
            > > Scotland"
            > > 3. "Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain
            > > and Ireland: Papal Letters Vol IV A.D. 1362-1404
            >
            > Googlebooks are currently only available to people in the US. Can
            > you list the authors and publication info of these books? They
            > look interesting and I'd like to see if I can get them via my
            > library.
            >
            T'would be my pleasure!
            1. "The Memoirs of James, Marquis of Montrose, 1639-1650"
            By George Wishart
            Published 1893
            Longmans, Green and Co

            2. "The Spottiswoode Miscellany: . . .
            By James Maidment
            Published 1844
            The Spottiswoode society

            3. "Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers . . .
            By Great Britain Public
            Records Office, Irish
            Manuscripts Commission
            , Archivio vaticano
            Published 1902
            Printed for H. M
            . Stationery Off., by
            Eyre and Spottiswoode



            > > I believe that books one and two are referring to the same person,
            > > however the surname has been spelled differently. (Which is exactly the
            > > sort of thing you said happens)
            >
            > Yup. It sounds like you've definitely stumbled upon some useful
            > material here.

            Wonderful. Thank you!
            - Pardus.
          • Sara L Uckelman
            ... Thank you much, my lord! -Aryanhwy -- vita sine literis mors est http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
            Message 5 of 17 , Jul 27, 2007
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              Quoth Pardus:
              > > Googlebooks are currently only available to people in the US. Can
              > > you list the authors and publication info of these books? They
              > > look interesting and I'd like to see if I can get them via my
              > > library.
              > >
              > T'would be my pleasure!

              Thank you much, my lord!

              -Aryanhwy



              --
              vita sine literis mors est
              http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
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