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Re: [SCA Newcomers] dating kilts (was: Fabric Patterns)

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  • Elizabeth Cember
    And didn t plaid mean fold back when? Elspeth ... From: Coblaith Mhuimhneach To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July
    Message 1 of 3 , Jul 2, 2007
      And didn't "plaid" mean "fold" back when?

      Elspeth


      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith@...>
      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, July 2, 2007 2:56:02 AM
      Subject: [SCA Newcomers] dating kilts (was: Fabric Patterns)

      Krezye Padreyk wrote:
      > The earliest mention of Scottish Kilts was in 1594 so kilts are in
      > fashion with in the SCA time frame though only in the very late period
      > and only the earliest of kilts.

      Maria
      > Isnt' that the formed kilt though. The great kilt was found much
      > earlier wasn't it? I always thought it was.

      The garment typically called a "kilt"--the skirt-like article sometimes
      known as "the small kilt"--didn' t exist until at least the end of the
      17th century, according to all the evidence I've ever seen
      <http://www.reconstr uctinghistory. com/index. php?c=8&d= 117&a=130& w=2>.

      The garment sometimes called "the great kilt" is more properly known as
      "the belted plaid". It's not at all skirt-like, but a cloak/blanket
      with a belt worn over it, the bottom part of which hangs down around
      the legs. Everything I've seen indicates it was first worn in the late
      16th century
      <http://www.reconstr uctinghistory. com/index. php?
      c=8&d=117&e= &f=&g=&a= 132&w=2>. The description of Scots in belted
      plaids in "The Life of Red Hugh O'Donnell", published in 1594, might be
      the "mention of Scottish Kilts" to which Krezye Padreyk referred.

      So, if it only becomes a garment when you put a belt on over it, it's
      appropriate to the tail-end of the S.C.A.'s period. If it's got a
      waistband, it's not appropriate to any of it.

      Coblaith Mhuimhneach
      Barony of Bryn Gwlad
      Kingdom of Ansteorra
      <mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>






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    • Larry
      When this was thread was fabric patterns I lost intrest altogether. But the acceptability of men wearing skirts on dates concerns me a bit so I will step
      Message 2 of 3 , Jul 2, 2007
        When this was "thread" was fabric patterns I lost
        intrest altogether. But the acceptability of men
        wearing skirts on dates concerns me a bit so I will
        step back into the "fray".

        Ahnuld is neither Scottish, nor wears a skirt, but an
        earlier topic on Scottish names led me to research and
        whatknot. On one of the pages about ancient Scotland,
        I went tracking and as oft happens, got lost in the
        underbrush, and found a reference to kilts. I thought
        it mentioned something to the effect that kilts as wee
        know them weren't worn until the late 18th or 19th
        century. I'll have to go back and look into them
        again (ACK!)

        I have some very good friends who are from Scotland
        and in discussions about Scotland, Highland games, and
        Irish dancing were often casual conversation topics.
        I once asked the cliche, "What DOES a Scotsman wear
        under his kilt", and was told "Ask Tommy, he'll SHOW
        you, and I doan think you'll ask any more..." so I
        didn't ask, left it alone from then on.

        Another discussion on kilts was how they were made.
        There is a kilt, and a competition kilt. The
        competition kilt had to be a certain density of
        fabric, and a minimum number of pleats. I always
        assumed the criteria for a competition kilt was
        because it had to have a certain authenticity to it.
        As I understand it, the mens and womens kilts are both
        very heavy because of thread counts, and the number of
        folds/pleats in the material.

        This probably adds nothing to the conversation, but
        there may be twisted folk out there, like me, who are
        interested in such arcanum.

        Ahnuld the Woodsman
        San Jose, CA, Mundania

        --- Elizabeth Cember <sapphire_chan@...> wrote:

        > And didn't "plaid" mean "fold" back when?
        >
        > Elspeth
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message ----
        > From: Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith@...>
        > To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, July 2, 2007 2:56:02 AM
        > Subject: [SCA Newcomers] dating kilts (was: Fabric
        > Patterns)
        >
        > Krezye Padreyk wrote:
        > > The earliest mention of Scottish Kilts was in 1594
        > so kilts are in
        > > fashion with in the SCA time frame though only in
        > the very late period
        > > and only the earliest of kilts.
        >
        > Maria
        > > Isnt' that the formed kilt though. The great kilt
        > was found much
        > > earlier wasn't it? I always thought it was.
        >
        > The garment typically called a "kilt"--the
        > skirt-like article sometimes
        > known as "the small kilt"--didn' t exist until at
        > least the end of the
        > 17th century, according to all the evidence I've
        > ever seen
        > <http://www.reconstr uctinghistory. com/index.
        > php?c=8&d= 117&a=130& w=2>.
        >
        > The garment sometimes called "the great kilt" is
        > more properly known as
        > "the belted plaid". It's not at all skirt-like, but
        > a cloak/blanket
        > with a belt worn over it, the bottom part of which
        > hangs down around
        > the legs. Everything I've seen indicates it was
        > first worn in the late
        > 16th century
        > <http://www.reconstr uctinghistory. com/index. php?
        > c=8&d=117&e= &f=&g=&a= 132&w=2>. The description of
        > Scots in belted
        > plaids in "The Life of Red Hugh O'Donnell",
        > published in 1594, might be
        > the "mention of Scottish Kilts" to which Krezye
        > Padreyk referred.
        >
        > So, if it only becomes a garment when you put a belt
        > on over it, it's
        > appropriate to the tail-end of the S.C.A.'s period.
        > If it's got a
        > waistband, it's not appropriate to any of it.
        >
        > Coblaith Mhuimhneach
        > Barony of Bryn Gwlad
        > Kingdom of Ansteorra
        > <mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        ____________________________________________________________________________________
        > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
        > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.
        >
        http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]
        >
        >
      • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
        ... Plaid originally meant something between cloak and blanket . Around the middle of the 17th century, some began to use plaid to refer to the patterns
        Message 3 of 3 , Jul 2, 2007
          I wrote:
          > The garment sometimes called "the great kilt" is more properly known
          > as "the belted plaid". It's not at all skirt-like, but a
          > cloak/blanket with a belt worn over it, the bottom part of which hangs
          > down around the legs. Everything I've seen indicates it was first
          > worn in the late 16th century <http://www.reconstr uctinghistory.
          > com/index. php?c=8&d=117&e= &f=&g=&a= 132&w=2>.

          Elspeth wrote:
          > And didn't "plaid" mean "fold" back when?

          "Plaid" originally meant something between "cloak" and "blanket".
          Around the middle of the 17th century, some began to use "plaid" to
          refer to the patterns woven into the fabric, which 'til then were (and
          today are, in some places) called "tartan". (See the site mentioned
          above for citations.)


          Coblaith Mhuimhneach
          Barony of Bryn Gwlad
          Kingdom of Ansteorra
          <mailto:Coblaith@...>
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