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Re: [SCA Newcomers] beginners' garb

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  • bronwynmgn@aol.com
    In a message dated 6/1/2007 7:36:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Coblaith@sbcglobal.net writes: Also, sewing the full square gusset onto the sleeve and
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 2, 2007
      In a message dated 6/1/2007 7:36:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      Coblaith@... writes:

      <<> Also, sewing the full square gusset onto the sleeve and then setting
      > in the sleeve and sewing around it is far more difficult than doing
      > the gusset as two triangles.

      Actually, that's the one step I don't do the way Stockton does. >>
      and
      <<I'm not aware of any extant medieval tunics with seams in the middle of
      their underarm gussets. Can you point me to information on any?
      Having one would undoubtedly change the way the gusset drapes, and
      might alter the way the sleeve hangs, so I wouldn't want to use them if
      they're a modern invention.>>

      Making the gussets as two triangles with a seam up the diagonal totally
      defeats the purpose of the gusset in any case. Inserting the gusset with the
      bias (the diagonal line) of the fabric where it is gives the garment stretch to
      allow easier movement of the arm. If you have a seam where that bias line
      is, you have removed most if not all of the stretch.

      I have never inset a sleeve on a tunic - it's just not how they are made, as
      far as I can tell. I shape my sleeve piece, sew the complete square gusset
      onto one side where the sleeve will attach to the tunic (so I have a sleeve
      with a little jutting our square on one side), then lay the tunic out flat (no
      side seams sewn at this point), attach the sleeve and gusset as one, and
      then do my side and sleeve seams at the same times. Since it's all geometric,
      if I could do ASCII art I could draw it for you, but I can't.


      Brangwayna Morgan
      Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
      Lancaster, PA



      ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Justinos Tekton called Justin
      ... I believe I have a program that turns an image into ASCII art. If you send me a drawing off-list, I can convert it and post it. Alternatively, you could
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 2, 2007
        On Saturday 02 June 2007 08:21, bronwynmgn@... wrote:
        > Since it's all  geometric,
        > if I could do ASCII art I could draw it for you, but I can't.

        I believe I have a program that turns an image into ASCII art. If you send me
        a drawing off-list, I can convert it and post it. Alternatively, you could
        upload a sketch to the files section for this group.

        Kind regards,

        Justin

        --
        ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
        Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
        Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
        keys fesswise reversed sable.

        Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
        justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
      • Bulgarelli Maria
        Where exactly are you? Didn t you say Gleann Abhann? Give me an idea. I can get in touch with them. I have lots of friends who know people over there. I m
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 2, 2007
          Where exactly are you? Didn't you say Gleann Abhann?
          Give me an idea. I can get in touch with them. I
          have lots of friends who know people over there. I'm
          in Houston so I'm pretty close.

          Maria
          --- emrys_clearwater <emrys_clearwater@...>
          wrote:

          > > First, to address the original question, don't
          > worry about garb at
          > all, email/call the chatelaine of your local group
          > and/or of the group
          > that's holding the event and explain that it's going
          > to be your first
          > event and you have no garb--also mention how many of
          > you there are.
          > My apologies for getting so caught up in the
          > question of making garb
          > that I forgot the best way of getting garb.
          >
          > The website for my area does not list a Chatelaine.
          > I e-mail the
          > Seneschal, but she hasn't gotten back to me. If I
          > don't hear from her
          > soon, is there someone I should contact? Should I
          > try the
          > Principality officers? (Not so much about garb, but
          > about getting
          > ready in general, and all the questions entailed
          > therein)?
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Elizabeth Cember
          http://www.forest.gen.nz/Medieval/articles/Tunics/TUNICS.HTML This version doesn t call for set-in sleeves. For when you ve got time and need the fullness
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 2, 2007
            http://www.forest.gen.nz/Medieval/articles/Tunics/TUNICS.HTML
            This version doesn't call for set-in sleeves. For when you've got time and need the fullness that the period pattern gives.

            When I do the two final side seams (cuff to hem) I pin starting at the under arm gores and let the cuffs and hem deal with any mistakes I made in cutting.

            Elspeth


            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Bulgarelli Maria <scarlettmb@...>
            And as for the

            sleeves, I like the pattern specifically because I

            don't have to play with set in sleeves. I use this

            when I want garb quick.



            Maria












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          • Elizabeth Cember
            I haven t tried to make a really fitted tunic so the the extra fabric from the gusset has been enough to allow free arm movement and I m not relying on any
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 2, 2007
              I haven't tried to make a really fitted tunic so the the extra fabric from the gusset has been enough to allow free arm movement and I'm not relying on any bias stretching.

              I'm with you through "attach the sleeve and gusset as one", but I can't quite picture how you're manipulating the fabric for the last seam on a side. I think it's something I'd be able to do by hand, but not by machine. Do you sort of switch from
              1. Putting the sides of the sleeve together to
              2. sewing the gusset to the side of the sleeve that isn't already sewn to the gusset to
              3. sewing the gusset to the side of the body that isn't already sewn to the gusset to
              4. sewing the sides of the body together ?

              http://www.forest.gen.nz/Medieval/articles/garments/bocksten/bocksten.html
              Is one extant tunic with the underarm gussets done as two triangles.

              Elspeth

              "I slept and dreamt that life was joy,
              I woke and saw that life was duty,
              I acted and behold, duty was joy"
              -- Rabinranath Tagore

              ----- Original Message ----
              From: "bronwynmgn@..." <bronwynmgn@...>
              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2007 8:21:03 AM
              Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] beginners' garb













              In a message dated 6/1/2007 7:36:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

              Coblaith@sbcglobal. net writes:



              <<> Also, sewing the full square gusset onto the sleeve and then setting

              > in the sleeve and sewing around it is far more difficult than doing

              > the gusset as two triangles.



              Actually, that's the one step I don't do the way Stockton does. >>

              and

              <<I'm not aware of any extant medieval tunics with seams in the middle of

              their underarm gussets. Can you point me to information on any?

              Having one would undoubtedly change the way the gusset drapes, and

              might alter the way the sleeve hangs, so I wouldn't want to use them if

              they're a modern invention.>>



              Making the gussets as two triangles with a seam up the diagonal totally

              defeats the purpose of the gusset in any case. Inserting the gusset with the

              bias (the diagonal line) of the fabric where it is gives the garment stretch to

              allow easier movement of the arm. If you have a seam where that bias line

              is, you have removed most if not all of the stretch.



              I have never inset a sleeve on a tunic - it's just not how they are made, as

              far as I can tell. I shape my sleeve piece, sew the complete square gusset

              onto one side where the sleeve will attach to the tunic (so I have a sleeve

              with a little jutting our square on one side), then lay the tunic out flat (no

              side seams sewn at this point), attach the sleeve and gusset as one, and

              then do my side and sleeve seams at the same times. Since it's all geometric,

              if I could do ASCII art I could draw it for you, but I can't.





              Brangwayna Morgan

              Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom

              Lancaster, PA



              ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's free at http://www.aol com.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]














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            • Emrys Clearwater
              Unfortunately, I believe that was someone else. I am personally from Wolfscairn Shire, and my sister and her friends are from Montaigne du Roi in the Barony of
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 2, 2007
                Unfortunately, I believe that was someone else.
                I am personally from Wolfscairn Shire, and my sister and her friends are from Montaigne du Roi in the Barony of Darkwood, both in the Principality of The Mists, Kingdom of the west.

                Bulgarelli Maria <scarlettmb@...> wrote: Where exactly are you? Didn't you say Gleann Abhann?
                Give me an idea. I can get in touch with them. I
                have lots of friends who know people over there. I'm
                in Houston so I'm pretty close.

                Maria






                Emrys of Clearwater (Unregistered)
                Wolfscairn, Province of The Mists
                Kingdom of the West

                ---------------------------------
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              • Bulgarelli Maria
                Ok. I looked up all of the groups. The shire at least has an up to date web site. mistsgoldkey@westkingdom.org - is the Principality s Gold Key
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 2, 2007
                  Ok. I looked up all of the groups. The shire at
                  least has an up to date web site.

                  mistsgoldkey@... - is the Principality's
                  Gold Key

                  anneofmdr@... - is the Gold key for the
                  Barony of Darkwood, of which the canton of Montaigne
                  du Roi is a part

                  ramsheart@... - is the Chatelaine for the
                  Barony of Darkwood.


                  --- Emrys Clearwater <emrys_clearwater@...>
                  wrote:

                  > Unfortunately, I believe that was someone else.
                  > I am personally from Wolfscairn Shire, and my sister
                  > and her friends are from Montaigne du Roi in the
                  > Barony of Darkwood, both in the Principality of The
                  > Mists, Kingdom of the west.
                  >
                  > Bulgarelli Maria <scarlettmb@...> wrote:
                  > Where exactly are
                  > you? Didn't you say Gleann Abhann?
                  > Give me an idea. I can get in touch with them. I
                  > have lots of friends who know people over there.
                  > I'm
                  > in Houston so I'm pretty close.
                  >
                  > Maria
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Emrys of Clearwater (Unregistered)
                  > Wolfscairn, Province of The Mists
                  > Kingdom of the West
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with
                  > the added security of spyware protection.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >
                • Bulgarelli Maria
                  OOPS. Hit the wrong button there. Ok I m going to start from the beginning. Ok. I looked up all of the groups. The shire at least has an up to date web
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 2, 2007
                    OOPS. Hit the wrong button there.

                    Ok I'm going to start from the beginning.

                    Ok. I looked up all of the groups. The shire at
                    least has an up to date web site.

                    mistsgoldkey@... - is the Principality's
                    Gold Key

                    anneofmdr@... - is the Gold key for the
                    Barony of Darkwood, of which the canton of Montaigne
                    du Roi is a part

                    ramsheart@... - is the Chatelaine for the
                    Barony of Darkwood.

                    catherine@... - is the Seneschal of Barony of
                    Darkwood.

                    Ok on to the Shire's officers. The Canton's web site
                    has no information on it.

                    wolfscairn_seneschal@... is the Seneschal
                    Lady Anne of Whaleshaven

                    The A&S Minister has a phone number listed. It's the
                    only one with a phone number listed. If you wanted to
                    call someone I'd say all her first. I'm not going to
                    post her number here, but you know how to get to the
                    site so get it there. I don't post other people's
                    phone numbers without their permission.

                    Here's something I found on the Darkwood web site.

                    Montaigne du Roi
                    (North and West Monterey County - including Seaside)
                    Web site: None, but visit them at their Yahoo! Group
                    Seneschal: Christophe d'Avignon (his email address is
                    christophe@... )
                    ** Informational and officers meetings on the 2nd
                    Wednesday of the month, 7:00pm, email Christophe for
                    info.
                    ** Arts & Sciences workshops - 4th Thursday of the
                    month, at 7:00pm. Contact Hraefn fram Lindune for
                    details.
                    ** Fighter practice - Thursdays at 7:00pm, contact
                    Badger for information.
                    ** Rapier practice - Monday evenings at 7:00pm.
                    Contact David Falcone for information.

                    Apparently there's a reason the web site wasn't
                    complete for the canton.

                    Anyway. Hope this information helps you. If you have
                    any more needs please feel free to call me or email
                    me. My phone number is 281-433-0347.

                    Maria
                    --- Emrys Clearwater <emrys_clearwater@...>
                    wrote:

                    > Unfortunately, I believe that was someone else.
                    > I am personally from Wolfscairn Shire, and my sister
                    > and her friends are from Montaigne du Roi in the
                    > Barony of Darkwood, both in the Principality of The
                    > Mists, Kingdom of the west.
                    >
                    > Bulgarelli Maria <scarlettmb@...> wrote:
                    > Where exactly are
                    > you? Didn't you say Gleann Abhann?
                    > Give me an idea. I can get in touch with them. I
                    > have lots of friends who know people over there.
                    > I'm
                    > in Houston so I'm pretty close.
                    >
                    > Maria
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Emrys of Clearwater (Unregistered)
                    > Wolfscairn, Province of The Mists
                    > Kingdom of the West
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with
                    > the added security of spyware protection.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > removed]
                    >
                    >
                  • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                    In a message dated 6/2/2007 11:32:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sapphire_chan@yahoo.com writes:
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 3, 2007
                      In a message dated 6/2/2007 11:32:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                      sapphire_chan@... writes:

                      <<I'm with you through "attach the sleeve and gusset as one", but I can't
                      quite picture how you're manipulating the fabric for the last seam on a side. I
                      think it's something I'd be able to do by hand, but not by machine. Do you
                      sort of switch from
                      1. Putting the sides of the sleeve together to
                      2. sewing the gusset to the side of the sleeve that isn't already sewn to
                      the gusset to
                      3. sewing the gusset to the side of the body that isn't already sewn to the
                      gusset to
                      4. sewing the sides of the body together ?>>

                      No.

                      If I am using separate pieces for the front and the back, then I sew the
                      shoulder seams together first. Then I take each sleeve (open, not sewn
                      together) and attach the gusset that goes with it. I then lay out the tunic as a
                      single long strip of fabric, not folded over or anything, pin the still open
                      sleeves where they need to go, and sew them on. So if you lay the whole thing
                      out flat at this point, you have, effectively, a cross with two long arms (the
                      front and back) and two short arms (the sleeves). At this point I fold it
                      at the shoulder line and close the side seams in one long strip. Starting at
                      the gusset and working out to the end of the arm and the end of the skirts
                      does work well, that way if you are a little off you just trim the extra before
                      hemming. Depending on how big your wrist openings are, it might be a bit
                      tricky to do that bit on the sewing machine, but the rest should be fine. I do
                      all my sewing by hand (I hate sewing machines, I can't sew a straight line
                      with one to save my life), so I don't have a problem with it.
                      Does that make any more sense?

                      Brangwayna Morgan
                      Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                      Lancaster, PA




                      ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Elizabeth Cember
                      My mental image of the process below has only two sides of the gusset attached. When and how do you attach the other sides of the square? Elspeth I slept and
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jun 3, 2007
                        My mental image of the process below has only two sides of the gusset attached. When and how do you attach the other sides of the square?

                        Elspeth

                        "I slept and dreamt that life was joy,
                        I woke and saw that life was duty,
                        I acted and behold, duty was joy"
                        -- Rabinranath Tagore

                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: "bronwynmgn@..." <bronwynmgn@...>

                        If I am using separate pieces for the front and the back, then I sew the

                        shoulder seams together first. Then I take each sleeve (open, not sewn

                        together) and attach the gusset that goes with it. I then lay out the tunic as a

                        single long strip of fabric, not folded over or anything, pin the still open

                        sleeves where they need to go, and sew them on. So if you lay the whole thing

                        out flat at this point, you have, effectively, a cross with two long arms (the

                        front and back) and two short arms (the sleeves). At this point I fold it

                        at the shoulder line and close the side seams in one long strip. Starting at

                        the gusset and working out to the end of the arm and the end of the skirts

                        does work well, that way if you are a little off you just trim the extra before

                        hemming. Depending on how big your wrist openings are, it might be a bit

                        tricky to do that bit on the sewing machine, but the rest should be fine. I do

                        all my sewing by hand (I hate sewing machines, I can't sew a straight line

                        with one to save my life), so I don't have a problem with it.

                        Does that make any more sense?



                        Brangwayna Morgan

                        Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom

                        Lancaster, PA



                        ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's free at http://www.aol com.



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]














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                      • Signora Beatrice
                        ... I can t speak for anyone else, but here s my order of doing things: 1) Sew front to back 2) Cut out and face neck (being sure to *not* center the neck on
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jun 4, 2007
                          --- Elizabeth Cember <sapphire_chan@...> wrote:

                          > My mental image of the process below has only two sides of the gusset
                          > attached. When and how do you attach the other sides of the square?
                          >
                          > Elspeth


                          I can't speak for anyone else, but here's my order of doing things:

                          1) Sew front to back
                          2) Cut out and face neck (being sure to *not* center the neck on the
                          shoulder seam, but put it 1/3 to the back and 2/3 to the front for
                          comfort)
                          3) Attach gussets to end of sleeve (forming a little dangle bit on one
                          edge, which continues and elongates the edge that will attach to the body)
                          4) Sew one seam to attach the sleeve and gusset to the body (making sure
                          to center the sleeve, not the whole sleeve-gusset piece, on the shoulder
                          seam)
                          5) Sew triangular gores (2-6, depending on size) together into one big
                          fan shape. To control stretch, I sew the bias of each triangle to the
                          straight grain of the next triangle.
                          6) Sew the two fans of gores (left and right sides) to opposite sides of
                          the body pieces (this winds up one left-back and one front-right (or maybe
                          vice-versa), because of the way I control the fabric). I sew this from
                          the hem up, using the straight edge of one side of the triangles in the
                          fan and matching it up to the straight edge of the bottom of the body of
                          the gown. This way, I don't have to worry about where the top of the gore
                          is going to hit on the body, and my hems come out even every time.
                          **Nota Bene: The advantage to doing this is that, if you use a very
                          consistant seam allowance, you wind up with a very neat point where all
                          the gores come together at a single spot.**
                          7) Sew one really long seam, from cuff to hem, sewing first the sleeve
                          bits together, then the body end of the sleeve to one side of the gusset,
                          then the other side of the gusset to the body of the garment, then down
                          the side of the garment, sewing gores to body parts and finishing at the
                          hem.
                          8) If the cuff end wasn't cut as a selvedge (which I often try to do),
                          fold over and hem the cuff
                          9) Cut off stray triangle points and hem bottom edge.


                          Any questions? I could do some sketches and scan them, if that would help.

                          In Service to Lioncourt Manor and An Tir,
                          Signora Beatrice Domenici della Campana



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                        • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                          In a message dated 6/3/2007 11:11:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sapphire_chan@yahoo.com writes:
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jun 4, 2007
                            In a message dated 6/3/2007 11:11:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                            sapphire_chan@... writes:

                            <<My mental image of the process below has only two sides of the gusset
                            attached. When and how do you attach the other sides of the square?>>

                            The first side is attached when you sew it to the sleeve. The second side
                            is attached when you sew the sleeve-and-gusset to the body of the tunic. The
                            third and fourth sides form parts of the underarm seam and side seam and are
                            done when you close these seams.


                            Brangwayna Morgan
                            Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                            Lancaster, PA



                            ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Elizabeth Cember
                            Sorry. Looked back at the post just now and realized that starting from the gusset can include sewing the gusset. I had originally read it as starting the
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jun 4, 2007
                              Sorry. Looked back at the post just now and realized that "starting from the gusset" can include sewing the gusset. I had originally read it as starting the side seam just under where the gusset was attached to the body.

                              All clear now, and it is just as I thought you were doing.

                              Elspeth

                              "I slept and dreamt that life was joy,
                              I woke and saw that life was duty,
                              I acted and behold, duty was joy"
                              -- Rabinranath Tagore



                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: "bronwynmgn@..." <bronwynmgn@...>
                              To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, June 4, 2007 5:12:07 PM
                              Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] beginners' garb

                              In a message dated 6/3/2007 11:11:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                              sapphire_chan@ yahoo.com writes:

                              <<My mental image of the process below has only two sides of the gusset
                              attached. When and how do you attach the other sides of the square?>>

                              The first side is attached when you sew it to the sleeve. The second side
                              is attached when you sew the sleeve-and-gusset to the body of the tunic. The
                              third and fourth sides form parts of the underarm seam and side seam and are
                              done when you close these seams.


                              Brangwayna Morgan
                              Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                              Lancaster, PA

                              ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's free at http://www.aol com.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                              In response to a number of recent posts to this list, I d like to make a general observation: It s a very bad idea to send someone else s e-mail address to a
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jun 5, 2007
                                In response to a number of recent posts to this list, I'd like to make
                                a general observation:

                                It's a very bad idea to send someone else's e-mail address to a Yahoo!
                                Group. Spiders harvest from archives, and those whose addresses are so
                                posted may soon be inundated with spam. . .on the order of hundreds of
                                pieces per day. (You may have noticed I include mine in my signature;
                                I received over 3000 pieces of junk today.) Even if they're using an
                                officer address, rather than their personal one, that can completely
                                overwhelm.

                                If you've seen a particular individual's address on a website, it's
                                much better to simply pass on the URL. It is likely protected there,
                                by one piece of careful programming or another, from harvest. And if
                                it's not, you can at least be sure it isn't being exposed in any way to
                                which the individual to whom it belongs has not consented.


                                Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                                Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                                Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                              • Wolfy
                                I m using Gmail... I haven t had a single spam mail for the past... 3-4 month Up to 20 in the past 2 years. If you really have to put in an email use
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jun 5, 2007
                                  I'm using Gmail...
                                  I haven't had a single spam mail for the past... 3-4 month
                                  Up to 20 in the past 2 years.
                                  If you really have to put in an email use thisisanemail [ATs] address [DOTs] com
                                  I am sure people can read through the square brackets. Bots can't though.

                                  And if there is mail on a web page, rest assured that it will get
                                  picked up by crawlers.

                                  ~Wolfy

                                  --
                                  The heart has reasons which reason does not know. (Blaise Pascal)

                                  On 6/5/07, Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith@...> wrote:
                                  > In response to a number of recent posts to this list, I'd like to make
                                  > a general observation:
                                  >
                                  > It's a very bad idea to send someone else's e-mail address to a Yahoo!
                                  > Group. Spiders harvest from archives, and those whose addresses are so
                                  > posted may soon be inundated with spam. . .on the order of hundreds of
                                  > pieces per day. (You may have noticed I include mine in my signature;
                                  > I received over 3000 pieces of junk today.) Even if they're using an
                                  > officer address, rather than their personal one, that can completely
                                  > overwhelm.
                                  >
                                  > If you've seen a particular individual's address on a website, it's
                                  > much better to simply pass on the URL. It is likely protected there,
                                  > by one piece of careful programming or another, from harvest. And if
                                  > it's not, you can at least be sure it isn't being exposed in any way to
                                  > which the individual to whom it belongs has not consented.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                                  > Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                                  > Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                  > <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                                  >
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