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Re: [SCA Newcomers] beginners' garb

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  • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
    ... I didn t recommend it as a guide to garb . I recommended it as an excellent place to find out how tunics are put together, using period construction
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 1, 2007
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      Elspeth wrote:
      > Sorry, I really don't think Janet's article works as a beginner's
      > guide to garb.

      I didn't recommend it as a "guide to garb". I recommended it as an
      excellent place to find out how tunics are put together, using period
      construction techniques.

      > There needs to be a lot more information on "if you don't have any way
      > of getting linen or wool, here are ideas of what will still work".

      It's not a shopping guide. It's information on what tunics are and how
      they're constructed.

      If someone doesn't want to use authentic fibers and doesn't understand
      other fabrics well enough to choose one, there are plenty of sites they
      can visit, and books they can borrow from the library, that will tell
      them what they need to know. Sites that tell you how to put together a
      tunic, and don't punk out and say, "Or you could just trace around a
      button-up shirt," are a rarity.

      > Also, sewing the full square gusset onto the sleeve and then setting
      > in the sleeve and sewing around it is far more difficult than doing
      > the gusset as two triangles.

      Actually, that's the one step I don't do the way Stockton does. I use
      the approach in Reconstructing History's "Your First Garb"
      <http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/index.php?c=8&d=141&a=126&w=2>.
      It's a breeze, and leaves you with the same (documentable) seams. That
      used to be my go-to article for beginners, but it's not as fully
      illustrated, isn't printer-friendly, and doesn't include that nifty
      chart of period-dyed colors, and the Reconstructing History site's been
      undergoing major renovations lately, so I knew its URL would be
      changing.

      I'm not aware of any extant medieval tunics with seams in the middle of
      their underarm gussets. Can you point me to information on any?
      Having one would undoubtedly change the way the gusset drapes, and
      might alter the way the sleeve hangs, so I wouldn't want to use them if
      they're a modern invention.

      > For someone who's an experienced sewer, the instructions might be
      > great, for someone who's just starting, there's a lot of detail
      > missing.

      It's not sewing instruction. It's information on what tunics are and
      how they're constructed. If someone doesn't know how to sew, there are
      plenty of sites they can visit, and books they can borrow from the
      library, that will tell them what they need to know. Sites that tell
      you how to put together a tunic, and don't punk out and say, "Or you
      could just trace around a button-up shirt," are a rarity.

      > Of course, it isn't only Stockton who fails in that last category,
      > I've yet to see a description of tunic making that didn't just flake
      > out at the end with "now finish your neckline and add trim".

      There are many ways to finish a neckline, many types of trim that can
      be used on tunics, and many ways to add each type of trim. Anybody who
      knows how to sew is going to have her or his favorites. I'm not sure
      it's even possible to write an article that covers them all. And since
      neckline shapes and treatments and trim type and placement are among
      the details that distinguish tunics of one place and time from those of
      others, instructions that specify any one approach to either wouldn't
      be "general tunic" articles. They'd be instructions on how to make
      tunics from a specific setting.

      > It's just that other patterns are far, far, far, easier to muddle
      > through to get to the point where you're staring at an unfinished
      > neckline wondering "now what?"

      Please, send me their URLs. If they don't use undocumented techniques
      (other than machine sewing on internal seams) and are complete and
      well-illustrated, I'll be happy to change my recommendation.

      > They also all completely fail to discuss lining sleeves.

      That might well be because the artifact garments on which they're based
      don't have lined sleeves. I don't know of any Nockert Type 1 tunics
      <http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/cloth/type1.html> that
      do. The three pieces most often referenced in instructions like
      these--the Bocksten Tunic
      <http://www.forest.gen.nz/Medieval/articles/garments/bocksten/
      bocksten.html>, the Skjoldeham Tunic
      <http://www.forest.gen.nz/Medieval/articles/garments/Skjoldehamn/
      Skjoldehamn.html>, and St. Louis' shirt
      <http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/cloth/stlouis.html>--are
      all unlined.

      > I really need to get my digital camera and hunt down a decent sewer
      > who's making one of these tunics and take about 100 pictures and then
      > outline the steps in a website.

      I've toyed with the idea of taking step-by-step photos the next time I
      knock one out, since good, clear pictures make figuring anything out
      easier for most folk. Unfortunately, while the tunics don't take long,
      I always seem to put off making one until five minutes before I
      absolutely, positively have to have it, so I can never afford to stop
      and use the camera.

      > All the theory and research and such is nice, but it doesn't get the
      > garb sewn in time to go to the event.

      The "theory and research and such" is what allows us to _have_ clothing
      that would look at home in the Middle Ages or Renaissance. It's not
      just "nice". It's necessary.

      Stockton's article isn't all that scholarly in tone. (It's a handout
      for a beginners' class, after all.) There's a very concise and
      readable introduction, with enough information to allow someone
      completely new to medieval clothing to understand what the author based
      her pattern on (more than a little relevant, if you're at all
      interested in knowing that what you're wearing is realistic), and then
      straightforward construction diagrams and assembly instructions, with
      an occasional note clarifying the basis of certain choices and the
      utility of certain elements. For somebody who knows how to sew and
      just wants to know what (s)he should be sewing, it's plenty of info.
      For somebody who doesn't know how to sew, it covers what you need to
      make a tunic that the "how to sew" sites and books don't.

      > Anyway, for good looking, authentic, easy to make garb, I highly
      > recommend going Norse.

      The reason I recommend tunics for newcomers who haven't made up their
      minds what personae they want is that they're the closest thing there
      is to a "universal" medieval outfit. If you make one, wear it to a
      couple of events, and then decide you want to be a 13th-century
      Bavarian or a 15th-century Irish Gael or a 10th-century Dane, you can
      go right on wearing it. Add a little trim to make it more specific to
      the period, maybe, or layer it under or over something else, but you
      don't end up shoving it to the back of your closet. If you make a
      hangerok and then decide not to be a Viking Age Nord, you've put your
      time and effort into something you'll never wear again. (Of course, if
      you're male and "go Norse", you'll still just be making the tunic. . .)


      Coblaith Mhuimhneach
      Barony of Bryn Gwlad
      Kingdom of Ansteorra
      <mailto:Coblaith@...>



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Elizabeth Cember
      First, to address the original question, don t worry about garb at all, email/call the chatelaine of your local group and/or of the group that s holding the
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 1, 2007
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        First, to address the original question, don't worry about garb at all, email/call the chatelaine of your local group and/or of the group that's holding the event and explain that it's going to be your first event and you have no garb--also mention how many of you there are. My apologies for getting so caught up in the question of making garb that I forgot the best way of getting garb.

        Now, to address the message I'm actually replying to:

        To quote Coblaith's original message:
        "
        If you want authentic, easy-to-make clothing for your first event, I

        recommend you start with some simple tunics, made using period

        construction like that outlined in Jane Stockton's "Getting Started

        with Tunics""

        From this I took it to mean that you felt that the article in question was a good place to go to learn how to make "simple tunics"

        Who ever said anything about never using authentic fabrics? I'm talking about having any garb. See, the great thing about the SCA as opposed to things like the Civil War reenactors is that we don't have to start off perfect. We don't have to have a tunic of linen ($7/yard+ unless you're buying 20 yards, and have time for shipping) and one of summerweight wool ($10/yard+), we can have just one layer that's just $2-3 a yard cotton broadcloth. And then we can actually go to events.

        Look, if I missed the part where the event they wanted to go to was in 3 weeks not in a couple of weekends, I'm sorry. I just missed too many events through not having any garb whatsoever because I spent so much time worrying about things being exactly right. And worrying about not having the right fabric. And fighting through article after article that talked about everything about garb except how to actually get some made. And, and this is a *BIG* one, worrying that I was wasting my time making garb because I didn't know exactly what I wanted my persona to be and there was "no point" in making garb if I wouldn't be able to wear it later. I would have spent all that time for "nothing."

        Sure, I could decide that I'm going to stick with a 15th century Italian persona from now on. Yep, that'd mean that pretty much everything I've got is unusable. But it doesn't matter. I can still do stuff with old garb. I can save it for wearing when it's mucky. I can donate it to Gold Key. I can loan/give it to a friend of mine who's considering joining the SCA and who has no garb yet. I can find a person who's decided they want to start doing some earlier period stuff and offer them the garb and some money in trade for one of their 15th century Italian dresses. I can donate the garb to a charity auction for a kingdom travel fund. I can even throw it away and as long as I was able to go to one event and have fun, it was worth it.

        Elspeth

        "I slept and dreamt that life was joy,
        I woke and saw that life was duty,
        I acted and behold, duty was joy"
        -- Rabinranath Tagore

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith@...>
        To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, June 1, 2007 7:33:18 PM
        Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] beginners' garb













        Elspeth wrote:

        > Sorry, I really don't think Janet's article works as a beginner's

        > guide to garb.



        I didn't recommend it as a "guide to garb". I recommended it as an

        excellent place to find out how tunics are put together, using period

        construction techniques.



        > There needs to be a lot more information on "if you don't have any way

        > of getting linen or wool, here are ideas of what will still work".



        It's not a shopping guide. It's information on what tunics are and how

        they're constructed.



        If someone doesn't want to use authentic fibers and doesn't understand

        other fabrics well enough to choose one, there are plenty of sites they

        can visit, and books they can borrow from the library, that will tell

        them what they need to know. Sites that tell you how to put together a

        tunic, and don't punk out and say, "Or you could just trace around a

        button-up shirt," are a rarity.



        > Also, sewing the full square gusset onto the sleeve and then setting

        > in the sleeve and sewing around it is far more difficult than doing

        > the gusset as two triangles.



        Actually, that's the one step I don't do the way Stockton does. I use

        the approach in Reconstructing History's "Your First Garb"

        <http://www.reconstr uctinghistory. com/index. php?c=8&d= 141&a=126& w=2>.

        It's a breeze, and leaves you with the same (documentable) seams. That

        used to be my go-to article for beginners, but it's not as fully

        illustrated, isn't printer-friendly, and doesn't include that nifty

        chart of period-dyed colors, and the Reconstructing History site's been

        undergoing major renovations lately, so I knew its URL would be

        changing.



        I'm not aware of any extant medieval tunics with seams in the middle of

        their underarm gussets. Can you point me to information on any?

        Having one would undoubtedly change the way the gusset drapes, and

        might alter the way the sleeve hangs, so I wouldn't want to use them if

        they're a modern invention.



        > For someone who's an experienced sewer, the instructions might be

        > great, for someone who's just starting, there's a lot of detail

        > missing.



        It's not sewing instruction. It's information on what tunics are and

        how they're constructed. If someone doesn't know how to sew, there are

        plenty of sites they can visit, and books they can borrow from the

        library, that will tell them what they need to know. Sites that tell

        you how to put together a tunic, and don't punk out and say, "Or you

        could just trace around a button-up shirt," are a rarity.



        > Of course, it isn't only Stockton who fails in that last category,

        > I've yet to see a description of tunic making that didn't just flake

        > out at the end with "now finish your neckline and add trim".



        There are many ways to finish a neckline, many types of trim that can

        be used on tunics, and many ways to add each type of trim. Anybody who

        knows how to sew is going to have her or his favorites. I'm not sure

        it's even possible to write an article that covers them all. And since

        neckline shapes and treatments and trim type and placement are among

        the details that distinguish tunics of one place and time from those of

        others, instructions that specify any one approach to either wouldn't

        be "general tunic" articles. They'd be instructions on how to make

        tunics from a specific setting.



        > It's just that other patterns are far, far, far, easier to muddle

        > through to get to the point where you're staring at an unfinished

        > neckline wondering "now what?"



        Please, send me their URLs. If they don't use undocumented techniques

        (other than machine sewing on internal seams) and are complete and

        well-illustrated, I'll be happy to change my recommendation.



        > They also all completely fail to discuss lining sleeves.



        That might well be because the artifact garments on which they're based

        don't have lined sleeves. I don't know of any Nockert Type 1 tunics

        <http://www.personal .utulsa.edu/ ~marc-carlson/ cloth/type1. html> that

        do. The three pieces most often referenced in instructions like

        these--the Bocksten Tunic

        <http://www.forest gen.nz/Medieval/ articles/ garments/ bocksten/

        bocksten.html> , the Skjoldeham Tunic

        <http://www.forest gen.nz/Medieval/ articles/ garments/ Skjoldehamn/

        Skjoldehamn. html>, and St. Louis' shirt

        <http://www.personal .utulsa.edu/ ~marc-carlson/ cloth/stlouis. html>--are

        all unlined.



        > I really need to get my digital camera and hunt down a decent sewer

        > who's making one of these tunics and take about 100 pictures and then

        > outline the steps in a website.



        I've toyed with the idea of taking step-by-step photos the next time I

        knock one out, since good, clear pictures make figuring anything out

        easier for most folk. Unfortunately, while the tunics don't take long,

        I always seem to put off making one until five minutes before I

        absolutely, positively have to have it, so I can never afford to stop

        and use the camera.



        > All the theory and research and such is nice, but it doesn't get the

        > garb sewn in time to go to the event.



        The "theory and research and such" is what allows us to _have_ clothing

        that would look at home in the Middle Ages or Renaissance. It's not

        just "nice". It's necessary.



        Stockton's article isn't all that scholarly in tone. (It's a handout

        for a beginners' class, after all.) There's a very concise and

        readable introduction, with enough information to allow someone

        completely new to medieval clothing to understand what the author based

        her pattern on (more than a little relevant, if you're at all

        interested in knowing that what you're wearing is realistic), and then

        straightforward construction diagrams and assembly instructions, with

        an occasional note clarifying the basis of certain choices and the

        utility of certain elements. For somebody who knows how to sew and

        just wants to know what (s)he should be sewing, it's plenty of info.

        For somebody who doesn't know how to sew, it covers what you need to

        make a tunic that the "how to sew" sites and books don't.



        > Anyway, for good looking, authentic, easy to make garb, I highly

        > recommend going Norse.



        The reason I recommend tunics for newcomers who haven't made up their

        minds what personae they want is that they're the closest thing there

        is to a "universal" medieval outfit. If you make one, wear it to a

        couple of events, and then decide you want to be a 13th-century

        Bavarian or a 15th-century Irish Gael or a 10th-century Dane, you can

        go right on wearing it. Add a little trim to make it more specific to

        the period, maybe, or layer it under or over something else, but you

        don't end up shoving it to the back of your closet. If you make a

        hangerok and then decide not to be a Viking Age Nord, you've put your

        time and effort into something you'll never wear again. (Of course, if

        you're male and "go Norse", you'll still just be making the tunic. . .)



        Coblaith Mhuimhneach

        Barony of Bryn Gwlad

        Kingdom of Ansteorra

        <mailto:Coblaith@sbcglobal. net>



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]














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      • emrys_clearwater
        ... all, email/call the chatelaine of your local group and/or of the group that s holding the event and explain that it s going to be your first event and you
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 1, 2007
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          > First, to address the original question, don't worry about garb at
          all, email/call the chatelaine of your local group and/or of the group
          that's holding the event and explain that it's going to be your first
          event and you have no garb--also mention how many of you there are.
          My apologies for getting so caught up in the question of making garb
          that I forgot the best way of getting garb.

          The website for my area does not list a Chatelaine. I e-mail the
          Seneschal, but she hasn't gotten back to me. If I don't hear from her
          soon, is there someone I should contact? Should I try the
          Principality officers? (Not so much about garb, but about getting
          ready in general, and all the questions entailed therein)?
        • Signora Beatrice
          Greetings from Beatrice. Hello and welcome! As you ve seen, the people here are friendly and helpful, and we re glad to have you join! ... You might try
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 2, 2007
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            Greetings from Beatrice.

            Hello and welcome! As you've seen, the people here are friendly and
            helpful, and we're glad to have you join!

            --- emrys_clearwater <emrys_clearwater@...> wrote:

            > The website for my area does not list a Chatelaine. I e-mail the
            > Seneschal, but she hasn't gotten back to me. If I don't hear from her
            > soon, is there someone I should contact? Should I try the
            > Principality officers? (Not so much about garb, but about getting
            > ready in general, and all the questions entailed therein)?

            You might try calling the Seneschal (or, for that matter, any officer who
            has a phone number listed). Phone calls are more personal, and quicker,
            especially if you're concerned about the time to get a reply. In general,
            though, don't call after 9p local time, or before 10a on the weekends.

            Yes, if you're not getting the help you need locally, contact the
            principality officers. You can also generally contact _any_ of the local
            branch officers. Even the ones that aren't directly involved in what you
            need have some knowledge, and may be able to get you more details quicker.
            If the Principality has a Chatelaine (which they should), that person
            should be able to help you with answering questions about local customs
            and such.


            Now I'm going to toss in my two cents on the whole garb issue.

            1) The most important thing is to go to the event and have fun.
            2) More authentic, if it isn't much more work, is better.

            The first thing I _ever_ sewed was a cotehardie out of velvet, using only
            the small diagram from the Known World Handbook as a pattern (pause here
            for all the costumers to wince). These days, I make all my own patterns,
            and to generally period construction, though I sew everything by machine
            (my tendonitis won't allow me to hand sew anything for longer than it
            takes to attach a button).

            As for T-tunics, I'm a HUGE fan of rectangular construction. I use a
            pattern similar to the one that was recommended by another gentle on this
            list, with a few exceptions, tips, and tricks:

            1) I do not use front or back gores, I hate setting them, and even with
            my rather curvateous figure, I can get enough fit with just side gores

            2) I always "face" the neck line (no matter what shape) to give it a
            smooth line. This step is always the FIRST thing I sew after cutting out
            the pieces (the only exception is if I've cut a seperate front and back,
            in which case the shoulder seam is first, then the neck). If you want
            detailed instructions for facing a neck, let me know, I'd be happy to
            provide them (privately or on list).

            3) When sewing the gussets into place under the arms, I do not sew ANY
            seams in the 5/8 inch border of the square. This makes turning the
            corners into their places WAY easier. I stop the needle of my machine 5/8
            of an inch from the end of the piece, leaving the needle in the fabric,
            and rotate everything around till the next segment is lined up.

            4) I sew everything onto the front and back of the tunic, and the last
            seams (other than hem and cuffs) I sew are the side seams, from cuff to
            hem, going around the gusset in the arm and the gores at the sides. This
            eliminates the icky setting into points part that is the whole reason I
            dislike doing front and back gores (these days I _can_ do them, but
            they're still a pain, and I still don't _like_ doing them).


            I was fortunate in that I got a GREAT handout (single sheet) on
            rectangular construction from a Laurel in An Tir (Mistress Fjorlief in
            Haga). I'm willing to share it with individuals (once it's unpacked from
            my move from Oregon to Chicago), but since it's not mine, I will not post
            it to the list.

            Ever since I discovered the joys of rectangular construction, I will NEVER
            go back to the "trace around a button up shirt and jeans" method of making
            tunics.


            In Service to the Dream (and, until recently, to An Tir),
            Signora Beatrice Domenici della Campana, AoA
            Argent, a lion rampant to sinister sable and in chief two roses azure each
            charged with a rose argent
            (fieldless) A rose per pale argent and azure



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          • bronwynmgn@aol.com
            In a message dated 6/1/2007 7:36:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Coblaith@sbcglobal.net writes: Also, sewing the full square gusset onto the sleeve and
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 2, 2007
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              In a message dated 6/1/2007 7:36:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              Coblaith@... writes:

              <<> Also, sewing the full square gusset onto the sleeve and then setting
              > in the sleeve and sewing around it is far more difficult than doing
              > the gusset as two triangles.

              Actually, that's the one step I don't do the way Stockton does. >>
              and
              <<I'm not aware of any extant medieval tunics with seams in the middle of
              their underarm gussets. Can you point me to information on any?
              Having one would undoubtedly change the way the gusset drapes, and
              might alter the way the sleeve hangs, so I wouldn't want to use them if
              they're a modern invention.>>

              Making the gussets as two triangles with a seam up the diagonal totally
              defeats the purpose of the gusset in any case. Inserting the gusset with the
              bias (the diagonal line) of the fabric where it is gives the garment stretch to
              allow easier movement of the arm. If you have a seam where that bias line
              is, you have removed most if not all of the stretch.

              I have never inset a sleeve on a tunic - it's just not how they are made, as
              far as I can tell. I shape my sleeve piece, sew the complete square gusset
              onto one side where the sleeve will attach to the tunic (so I have a sleeve
              with a little jutting our square on one side), then lay the tunic out flat (no
              side seams sewn at this point), attach the sleeve and gusset as one, and
              then do my side and sleeve seams at the same times. Since it's all geometric,
              if I could do ASCII art I could draw it for you, but I can't.


              Brangwayna Morgan
              Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
              Lancaster, PA



              ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Justinos Tekton called Justin
              ... I believe I have a program that turns an image into ASCII art. If you send me a drawing off-list, I can convert it and post it. Alternatively, you could
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 2, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                On Saturday 02 June 2007 08:21, bronwynmgn@... wrote:
                > Since it's all  geometric,
                > if I could do ASCII art I could draw it for you, but I can't.

                I believe I have a program that turns an image into ASCII art. If you send me
                a drawing off-list, I can convert it and post it. Alternatively, you could
                upload a sketch to the files section for this group.

                Kind regards,

                Justin

                --
                ()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
                Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
                Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
                keys fesswise reversed sable.

                Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
                justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey
              • Bulgarelli Maria
                Where exactly are you? Didn t you say Gleann Abhann? Give me an idea. I can get in touch with them. I have lots of friends who know people over there. I m
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 2, 2007
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                  Where exactly are you? Didn't you say Gleann Abhann?
                  Give me an idea. I can get in touch with them. I
                  have lots of friends who know people over there. I'm
                  in Houston so I'm pretty close.

                  Maria
                  --- emrys_clearwater <emrys_clearwater@...>
                  wrote:

                  > > First, to address the original question, don't
                  > worry about garb at
                  > all, email/call the chatelaine of your local group
                  > and/or of the group
                  > that's holding the event and explain that it's going
                  > to be your first
                  > event and you have no garb--also mention how many of
                  > you there are.
                  > My apologies for getting so caught up in the
                  > question of making garb
                  > that I forgot the best way of getting garb.
                  >
                  > The website for my area does not list a Chatelaine.
                  > I e-mail the
                  > Seneschal, but she hasn't gotten back to me. If I
                  > don't hear from her
                  > soon, is there someone I should contact? Should I
                  > try the
                  > Principality officers? (Not so much about garb, but
                  > about getting
                  > ready in general, and all the questions entailed
                  > therein)?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Elizabeth Cember
                  http://www.forest.gen.nz/Medieval/articles/Tunics/TUNICS.HTML This version doesn t call for set-in sleeves. For when you ve got time and need the fullness
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 2, 2007
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                    http://www.forest.gen.nz/Medieval/articles/Tunics/TUNICS.HTML
                    This version doesn't call for set-in sleeves. For when you've got time and need the fullness that the period pattern gives.

                    When I do the two final side seams (cuff to hem) I pin starting at the under arm gores and let the cuffs and hem deal with any mistakes I made in cutting.

                    Elspeth


                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Bulgarelli Maria <scarlettmb@...>
                    And as for the

                    sleeves, I like the pattern specifically because I

                    don't have to play with set in sleeves. I use this

                    when I want garb quick.



                    Maria












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                  • Elizabeth Cember
                    I haven t tried to make a really fitted tunic so the the extra fabric from the gusset has been enough to allow free arm movement and I m not relying on any
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 2, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I haven't tried to make a really fitted tunic so the the extra fabric from the gusset has been enough to allow free arm movement and I'm not relying on any bias stretching.

                      I'm with you through "attach the sleeve and gusset as one", but I can't quite picture how you're manipulating the fabric for the last seam on a side. I think it's something I'd be able to do by hand, but not by machine. Do you sort of switch from
                      1. Putting the sides of the sleeve together to
                      2. sewing the gusset to the side of the sleeve that isn't already sewn to the gusset to
                      3. sewing the gusset to the side of the body that isn't already sewn to the gusset to
                      4. sewing the sides of the body together ?

                      http://www.forest.gen.nz/Medieval/articles/garments/bocksten/bocksten.html
                      Is one extant tunic with the underarm gussets done as two triangles.

                      Elspeth

                      "I slept and dreamt that life was joy,
                      I woke and saw that life was duty,
                      I acted and behold, duty was joy"
                      -- Rabinranath Tagore

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: "bronwynmgn@..." <bronwynmgn@...>
                      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2007 8:21:03 AM
                      Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] beginners' garb













                      In a message dated 6/1/2007 7:36:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

                      Coblaith@sbcglobal. net writes:



                      <<> Also, sewing the full square gusset onto the sleeve and then setting

                      > in the sleeve and sewing around it is far more difficult than doing

                      > the gusset as two triangles.



                      Actually, that's the one step I don't do the way Stockton does. >>

                      and

                      <<I'm not aware of any extant medieval tunics with seams in the middle of

                      their underarm gussets. Can you point me to information on any?

                      Having one would undoubtedly change the way the gusset drapes, and

                      might alter the way the sleeve hangs, so I wouldn't want to use them if

                      they're a modern invention.>>



                      Making the gussets as two triangles with a seam up the diagonal totally

                      defeats the purpose of the gusset in any case. Inserting the gusset with the

                      bias (the diagonal line) of the fabric where it is gives the garment stretch to

                      allow easier movement of the arm. If you have a seam where that bias line

                      is, you have removed most if not all of the stretch.



                      I have never inset a sleeve on a tunic - it's just not how they are made, as

                      far as I can tell. I shape my sleeve piece, sew the complete square gusset

                      onto one side where the sleeve will attach to the tunic (so I have a sleeve

                      with a little jutting our square on one side), then lay the tunic out flat (no

                      side seams sewn at this point), attach the sleeve and gusset as one, and

                      then do my side and sleeve seams at the same times. Since it's all geometric,

                      if I could do ASCII art I could draw it for you, but I can't.





                      Brangwayna Morgan

                      Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom

                      Lancaster, PA



                      ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's free at http://www.aol com.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]














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                    • Emrys Clearwater
                      Unfortunately, I believe that was someone else. I am personally from Wolfscairn Shire, and my sister and her friends are from Montaigne du Roi in the Barony of
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jun 2, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Unfortunately, I believe that was someone else.
                        I am personally from Wolfscairn Shire, and my sister and her friends are from Montaigne du Roi in the Barony of Darkwood, both in the Principality of The Mists, Kingdom of the west.

                        Bulgarelli Maria <scarlettmb@...> wrote: Where exactly are you? Didn't you say Gleann Abhann?
                        Give me an idea. I can get in touch with them. I
                        have lots of friends who know people over there. I'm
                        in Houston so I'm pretty close.

                        Maria






                        Emrys of Clearwater (Unregistered)
                        Wolfscairn, Province of The Mists
                        Kingdom of the West

                        ---------------------------------
                        Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Bulgarelli Maria
                        Ok. I looked up all of the groups. The shire at least has an up to date web site. mistsgoldkey@westkingdom.org - is the Principality s Gold Key
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jun 2, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Ok. I looked up all of the groups. The shire at
                          least has an up to date web site.

                          mistsgoldkey@... - is the Principality's
                          Gold Key

                          anneofmdr@... - is the Gold key for the
                          Barony of Darkwood, of which the canton of Montaigne
                          du Roi is a part

                          ramsheart@... - is the Chatelaine for the
                          Barony of Darkwood.


                          --- Emrys Clearwater <emrys_clearwater@...>
                          wrote:

                          > Unfortunately, I believe that was someone else.
                          > I am personally from Wolfscairn Shire, and my sister
                          > and her friends are from Montaigne du Roi in the
                          > Barony of Darkwood, both in the Principality of The
                          > Mists, Kingdom of the west.
                          >
                          > Bulgarelli Maria <scarlettmb@...> wrote:
                          > Where exactly are
                          > you? Didn't you say Gleann Abhann?
                          > Give me an idea. I can get in touch with them. I
                          > have lots of friends who know people over there.
                          > I'm
                          > in Houston so I'm pretty close.
                          >
                          > Maria
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Emrys of Clearwater (Unregistered)
                          > Wolfscairn, Province of The Mists
                          > Kingdom of the West
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with
                          > the added security of spyware protection.
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                          > removed]
                          >
                          >
                        • Bulgarelli Maria
                          OOPS. Hit the wrong button there. Ok I m going to start from the beginning. Ok. I looked up all of the groups. The shire at least has an up to date web
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jun 2, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            OOPS. Hit the wrong button there.

                            Ok I'm going to start from the beginning.

                            Ok. I looked up all of the groups. The shire at
                            least has an up to date web site.

                            mistsgoldkey@... - is the Principality's
                            Gold Key

                            anneofmdr@... - is the Gold key for the
                            Barony of Darkwood, of which the canton of Montaigne
                            du Roi is a part

                            ramsheart@... - is the Chatelaine for the
                            Barony of Darkwood.

                            catherine@... - is the Seneschal of Barony of
                            Darkwood.

                            Ok on to the Shire's officers. The Canton's web site
                            has no information on it.

                            wolfscairn_seneschal@... is the Seneschal
                            Lady Anne of Whaleshaven

                            The A&S Minister has a phone number listed. It's the
                            only one with a phone number listed. If you wanted to
                            call someone I'd say all her first. I'm not going to
                            post her number here, but you know how to get to the
                            site so get it there. I don't post other people's
                            phone numbers without their permission.

                            Here's something I found on the Darkwood web site.

                            Montaigne du Roi
                            (North and West Monterey County - including Seaside)
                            Web site: None, but visit them at their Yahoo! Group
                            Seneschal: Christophe d'Avignon (his email address is
                            christophe@... )
                            ** Informational and officers meetings on the 2nd
                            Wednesday of the month, 7:00pm, email Christophe for
                            info.
                            ** Arts & Sciences workshops - 4th Thursday of the
                            month, at 7:00pm. Contact Hraefn fram Lindune for
                            details.
                            ** Fighter practice - Thursdays at 7:00pm, contact
                            Badger for information.
                            ** Rapier practice - Monday evenings at 7:00pm.
                            Contact David Falcone for information.

                            Apparently there's a reason the web site wasn't
                            complete for the canton.

                            Anyway. Hope this information helps you. If you have
                            any more needs please feel free to call me or email
                            me. My phone number is 281-433-0347.

                            Maria
                            --- Emrys Clearwater <emrys_clearwater@...>
                            wrote:

                            > Unfortunately, I believe that was someone else.
                            > I am personally from Wolfscairn Shire, and my sister
                            > and her friends are from Montaigne du Roi in the
                            > Barony of Darkwood, both in the Principality of The
                            > Mists, Kingdom of the west.
                            >
                            > Bulgarelli Maria <scarlettmb@...> wrote:
                            > Where exactly are
                            > you? Didn't you say Gleann Abhann?
                            > Give me an idea. I can get in touch with them. I
                            > have lots of friends who know people over there.
                            > I'm
                            > in Houston so I'm pretty close.
                            >
                            > Maria
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Emrys of Clearwater (Unregistered)
                            > Wolfscairn, Province of The Mists
                            > Kingdom of the West
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with
                            > the added security of spyware protection.
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            > removed]
                            >
                            >
                          • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                            In a message dated 6/2/2007 11:32:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sapphire_chan@yahoo.com writes:
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jun 3, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              In a message dated 6/2/2007 11:32:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                              sapphire_chan@... writes:

                              <<I'm with you through "attach the sleeve and gusset as one", but I can't
                              quite picture how you're manipulating the fabric for the last seam on a side. I
                              think it's something I'd be able to do by hand, but not by machine. Do you
                              sort of switch from
                              1. Putting the sides of the sleeve together to
                              2. sewing the gusset to the side of the sleeve that isn't already sewn to
                              the gusset to
                              3. sewing the gusset to the side of the body that isn't already sewn to the
                              gusset to
                              4. sewing the sides of the body together ?>>

                              No.

                              If I am using separate pieces for the front and the back, then I sew the
                              shoulder seams together first. Then I take each sleeve (open, not sewn
                              together) and attach the gusset that goes with it. I then lay out the tunic as a
                              single long strip of fabric, not folded over or anything, pin the still open
                              sleeves where they need to go, and sew them on. So if you lay the whole thing
                              out flat at this point, you have, effectively, a cross with two long arms (the
                              front and back) and two short arms (the sleeves). At this point I fold it
                              at the shoulder line and close the side seams in one long strip. Starting at
                              the gusset and working out to the end of the arm and the end of the skirts
                              does work well, that way if you are a little off you just trim the extra before
                              hemming. Depending on how big your wrist openings are, it might be a bit
                              tricky to do that bit on the sewing machine, but the rest should be fine. I do
                              all my sewing by hand (I hate sewing machines, I can't sew a straight line
                              with one to save my life), so I don't have a problem with it.
                              Does that make any more sense?

                              Brangwayna Morgan
                              Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                              Lancaster, PA




                              ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Elizabeth Cember
                              My mental image of the process below has only two sides of the gusset attached. When and how do you attach the other sides of the square? Elspeth I slept and
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jun 3, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                My mental image of the process below has only two sides of the gusset attached. When and how do you attach the other sides of the square?

                                Elspeth

                                "I slept and dreamt that life was joy,
                                I woke and saw that life was duty,
                                I acted and behold, duty was joy"
                                -- Rabinranath Tagore

                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: "bronwynmgn@..." <bronwynmgn@...>

                                If I am using separate pieces for the front and the back, then I sew the

                                shoulder seams together first. Then I take each sleeve (open, not sewn

                                together) and attach the gusset that goes with it. I then lay out the tunic as a

                                single long strip of fabric, not folded over or anything, pin the still open

                                sleeves where they need to go, and sew them on. So if you lay the whole thing

                                out flat at this point, you have, effectively, a cross with two long arms (the

                                front and back) and two short arms (the sleeves). At this point I fold it

                                at the shoulder line and close the side seams in one long strip. Starting at

                                the gusset and working out to the end of the arm and the end of the skirts

                                does work well, that way if you are a little off you just trim the extra before

                                hemming. Depending on how big your wrist openings are, it might be a bit

                                tricky to do that bit on the sewing machine, but the rest should be fine. I do

                                all my sewing by hand (I hate sewing machines, I can't sew a straight line

                                with one to save my life), so I don't have a problem with it.

                                Does that make any more sense?



                                Brangwayna Morgan

                                Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom

                                Lancaster, PA



                                ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's free at http://www.aol com.



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]














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                              • Signora Beatrice
                                ... I can t speak for anyone else, but here s my order of doing things: 1) Sew front to back 2) Cut out and face neck (being sure to *not* center the neck on
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jun 4, 2007
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                                  --- Elizabeth Cember <sapphire_chan@...> wrote:

                                  > My mental image of the process below has only two sides of the gusset
                                  > attached. When and how do you attach the other sides of the square?
                                  >
                                  > Elspeth


                                  I can't speak for anyone else, but here's my order of doing things:

                                  1) Sew front to back
                                  2) Cut out and face neck (being sure to *not* center the neck on the
                                  shoulder seam, but put it 1/3 to the back and 2/3 to the front for
                                  comfort)
                                  3) Attach gussets to end of sleeve (forming a little dangle bit on one
                                  edge, which continues and elongates the edge that will attach to the body)
                                  4) Sew one seam to attach the sleeve and gusset to the body (making sure
                                  to center the sleeve, not the whole sleeve-gusset piece, on the shoulder
                                  seam)
                                  5) Sew triangular gores (2-6, depending on size) together into one big
                                  fan shape. To control stretch, I sew the bias of each triangle to the
                                  straight grain of the next triangle.
                                  6) Sew the two fans of gores (left and right sides) to opposite sides of
                                  the body pieces (this winds up one left-back and one front-right (or maybe
                                  vice-versa), because of the way I control the fabric). I sew this from
                                  the hem up, using the straight edge of one side of the triangles in the
                                  fan and matching it up to the straight edge of the bottom of the body of
                                  the gown. This way, I don't have to worry about where the top of the gore
                                  is going to hit on the body, and my hems come out even every time.
                                  **Nota Bene: The advantage to doing this is that, if you use a very
                                  consistant seam allowance, you wind up with a very neat point where all
                                  the gores come together at a single spot.**
                                  7) Sew one really long seam, from cuff to hem, sewing first the sleeve
                                  bits together, then the body end of the sleeve to one side of the gusset,
                                  then the other side of the gusset to the body of the garment, then down
                                  the side of the garment, sewing gores to body parts and finishing at the
                                  hem.
                                  8) If the cuff end wasn't cut as a selvedge (which I often try to do),
                                  fold over and hem the cuff
                                  9) Cut off stray triangle points and hem bottom edge.


                                  Any questions? I could do some sketches and scan them, if that would help.

                                  In Service to Lioncourt Manor and An Tir,
                                  Signora Beatrice Domenici della Campana



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                                • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                                  In a message dated 6/3/2007 11:11:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sapphire_chan@yahoo.com writes:
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jun 4, 2007
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                                    In a message dated 6/3/2007 11:11:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                    sapphire_chan@... writes:

                                    <<My mental image of the process below has only two sides of the gusset
                                    attached. When and how do you attach the other sides of the square?>>

                                    The first side is attached when you sew it to the sleeve. The second side
                                    is attached when you sew the sleeve-and-gusset to the body of the tunic. The
                                    third and fourth sides form parts of the underarm seam and side seam and are
                                    done when you close these seams.


                                    Brangwayna Morgan
                                    Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                                    Lancaster, PA



                                    ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Elizabeth Cember
                                    Sorry. Looked back at the post just now and realized that starting from the gusset can include sewing the gusset. I had originally read it as starting the
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jun 4, 2007
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                                      Sorry. Looked back at the post just now and realized that "starting from the gusset" can include sewing the gusset. I had originally read it as starting the side seam just under where the gusset was attached to the body.

                                      All clear now, and it is just as I thought you were doing.

                                      Elspeth

                                      "I slept and dreamt that life was joy,
                                      I woke and saw that life was duty,
                                      I acted and behold, duty was joy"
                                      -- Rabinranath Tagore



                                      ----- Original Message ----
                                      From: "bronwynmgn@..." <bronwynmgn@...>
                                      To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Monday, June 4, 2007 5:12:07 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] beginners' garb

                                      In a message dated 6/3/2007 11:11:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                      sapphire_chan@ yahoo.com writes:

                                      <<My mental image of the process below has only two sides of the gusset
                                      attached. When and how do you attach the other sides of the square?>>

                                      The first side is attached when you sew it to the sleeve. The second side
                                      is attached when you sew the sleeve-and-gusset to the body of the tunic. The
                                      third and fourth sides form parts of the underarm seam and side seam and are
                                      done when you close these seams.


                                      Brangwayna Morgan
                                      Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                                      Lancaster, PA

                                      ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's free at http://www.aol com.

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                                    • Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                                      In response to a number of recent posts to this list, I d like to make a general observation: It s a very bad idea to send someone else s e-mail address to a
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jun 5, 2007
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                                        In response to a number of recent posts to this list, I'd like to make
                                        a general observation:

                                        It's a very bad idea to send someone else's e-mail address to a Yahoo!
                                        Group. Spiders harvest from archives, and those whose addresses are so
                                        posted may soon be inundated with spam. . .on the order of hundreds of
                                        pieces per day. (You may have noticed I include mine in my signature;
                                        I received over 3000 pieces of junk today.) Even if they're using an
                                        officer address, rather than their personal one, that can completely
                                        overwhelm.

                                        If you've seen a particular individual's address on a website, it's
                                        much better to simply pass on the URL. It is likely protected there,
                                        by one piece of careful programming or another, from harvest. And if
                                        it's not, you can at least be sure it isn't being exposed in any way to
                                        which the individual to whom it belongs has not consented.


                                        Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                                        Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                                        Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                        <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                                      • Wolfy
                                        I m using Gmail... I haven t had a single spam mail for the past... 3-4 month Up to 20 in the past 2 years. If you really have to put in an email use
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Jun 5, 2007
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                                          I'm using Gmail...
                                          I haven't had a single spam mail for the past... 3-4 month
                                          Up to 20 in the past 2 years.
                                          If you really have to put in an email use thisisanemail [ATs] address [DOTs] com
                                          I am sure people can read through the square brackets. Bots can't though.

                                          And if there is mail on a web page, rest assured that it will get
                                          picked up by crawlers.

                                          ~Wolfy

                                          --
                                          The heart has reasons which reason does not know. (Blaise Pascal)

                                          On 6/5/07, Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith@...> wrote:
                                          > In response to a number of recent posts to this list, I'd like to make
                                          > a general observation:
                                          >
                                          > It's a very bad idea to send someone else's e-mail address to a Yahoo!
                                          > Group. Spiders harvest from archives, and those whose addresses are so
                                          > posted may soon be inundated with spam. . .on the order of hundreds of
                                          > pieces per day. (You may have noticed I include mine in my signature;
                                          > I received over 3000 pieces of junk today.) Even if they're using an
                                          > officer address, rather than their personal one, that can completely
                                          > overwhelm.
                                          >
                                          > If you've seen a particular individual's address on a website, it's
                                          > much better to simply pass on the URL. It is likely protected there,
                                          > by one piece of careful programming or another, from harvest. And if
                                          > it's not, you can at least be sure it isn't being exposed in any way to
                                          > which the individual to whom it belongs has not consented.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Coblaith Mhuimhneach
                                          > Barony of Bryn Gwlad
                                          > Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                          > <mailto:Coblaith@...>
                                          >
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