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Re: [sca_moneyer] Digest Number 353

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  • rmhowe
    ... Galvanizing refers to zinc. The usual finish for cold rolled steel is something else. Not good for you but not going to bring on brass-founders ague. A
    Message 1 of 2 , Oct 4, 2004
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      > Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:38:52 -0700
      > From: "g.p.franck-weiby" <sfranckw@...>
      > Subject: Re: Digest Number 349
      > At 12:14 PM 9/24/2004 -0400, Magnus wrote:
      >> Message: 1
      >>> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:55:33 -0700
      >>> From: klessig <klessig@...>
      >>>Subject: Re: Digest Number 347
      >>>While like Ian, I prefer drill rod, you can use the plain galvanized steel
      >>>rod from Home Despot & etc.
      >>You know I hope not to heat galvanized rod and breathe the fumes.
      >>Gives you a terrible headache.

      Galvanizing refers to zinc. The usual finish for cold rolled
      steel is something else. Not good for you but not going to
      bring on brass-founders' ague. A zinc finish is rough and you
      can see "fans' in the formerly molten zinc which is deposited
      in a molten bath the metal is dipped in. Cold rolled steel
      apart from sheets and cyclone fences which are sometimes
      zinc coated is something else entirely if it is finished at
      all. The SCA blacksmith MajikBadger used to keep a lot of
      molten brass in his forge. He experienced ague first hand.
      Brass is zinc and copper.

      > good point - and I can't think of any useful relevance of galvanizing to
      > our application.
      >>I haven't seen these down south.
      >>I think ours have a light non-rusting coat of something else
      >>which name I cannot recall. Been a while since I read of it.
      >>Maybe like the Gritty' side of town it is a Yankee thing we don't
      >> need to understand. :)
      > I don't think of Oregonians (e.g. moi) as qualifying as 'Yankees' (to me
      > 'southerners' are Californians, and 'northerners' are Washingtonians - you
      > 'Old South' southerners and New England Yankees are all just 'easterners';-).

      Try growing up in a Southern Family in NC with ancestors who include
      the Washingtons and Lees of Virginia and the Episcopal Bishop of SC.
      There were weapons and pictures everywhere. My sister owns George's
      father's big dining room table. My aunt owns the Lee family bed I
      slept in as a child (1680). My uncle now owns the sword and gorget
      of the commanding colonel of the ancient and honorable artillery
      company of Boston (pre and during the Rev. War). My sisters' great
      great grandfather (of whom we all have a picture that looks like their
      old man at the same age in uniform) was in two Virginia infantry
      regiments, a cavalry outfit, and the Confederate Secret Service.
      A Captain by age 18 which is when the photograph was done.
      The old man married my mother after a divorce. My direct ancestors
      were unfortunately politically Yankees, at least when you grow
      up in the kind of atmosphere I did. So Yankees is more relevant
      to me. But I am not one. It is chagrinning to see pictures of
      some of them in yankee uniforms.

      > As for the 'gritty side of town', how that became my expectation of where
      > to look is this: my first set of steel dies was from 41-40 scrap that an
      > illustrious Duke had laying around. After we tried hardening it, we
      > realized that wasn't a good alloy to use. He recommended that I try drill
      > rod, and since he worked mundanely as a draughtsman in a machine shop, the
      > source that it made sense to him to seek out was the kind of place where
      > the machine shop got its steel; the place I found was SteelCo in a very
      > industrial part of Salem.
      > Since making a few purchases from them and similar businesses, for many
      > years now I've been successful in persuading other members of the An Tir
      > Guild to do the actual leg work of finding sources and getting the rod cut
      > up. Consequently, even being Minister of a Guild that occasionaly does
      > bulk purchases for the members, I'm not the best source of information on
      > the most convenient places for people to find the stuff. However, my
      > 'gritty' recommendations provoked people on the list to offer more
      > practical alternatives, so 'mission accomplished'.
      >>>You can also cut the heads off of Grade 5 or Grade 8 bolts, or just grind
      >>>the heads flat.
      >>I sure am glad you are using Your muscles and not mine.
      > It might help for people not familiar with him in person to know that
      > Viscount Sir Chandra is <big> - towers over me any way - with muscles to
      > spare.

      King Kong? :) We had a nice guy named King Kane but he
      unfortunately died with his queen on the way back from an
      event in an auto accident. Like Duke Jafar he had many
      admirers. In this case he was a huge Polynesian, Hawaiian
      I think. An outstanding example of what Kings should be.
      A bit long winded during courts though. We miss him.

      >>We just cut mild steel rod to about 4" lengths and I dress
      >>the faces square and smooth on a belt grinder here. The
      >>boys use a metal sleeve for alignment.
      > Some detailed description of the sleeves would be welcome here.

      Hollow steel shaft slightly larger than the upper and lower
      dies. I buy them whenever I see them. Usually three to four
      inches long. [But I imagnine a sintered bronze bushing might
      do for one for a while.] Walls are usually at least a 1/4" thick.

      >>I have a drawer full
      >>of those myself. Beats being like Duke Anton and having someone
      >>hammer your coins when your first joint is between the dies.
      >>I hope he wanted those coins cause they cost him.
      > sounds like he didn't pass the Guild's test for 'smart enough to be a moneyer'

      Honestly, when he first joined he was a very nice guy.
      Later he turned into a very unpleasant Duke which was
      thoroughly disappointing to all of us in his immediate
      area. I was shocked at how bad his behavior was in a
      Laurel meeting. I'm told the same act was repeated 3 times
      in the north and south of the kingdom for the Pelicans
      as well as the Laurels. All of us were grievously insulted.
      So I can agree on "Not smart Enough" in general.

      Unfortunately we have had three of these guys here in
      this kingdom and not enough Peers stand up to them in general.
      Which is why I don't identify with this kingdom now but the
      SCA and other organizations in general. My barony I am quite
      proud of. Huge, 500 people in five cantons with an incipient
      new one. Very gregarious, non separatist. We pull off great
      things when we try. We are capable of greater things still.

      The SCA really should set limits on how many times
      someone can serve as King, Queen, or BoD members. It would
      be better for the society. My kingdom has had some real
      "Jewels" for princes. So have others. Right now he may
      have quit. Which is a positive thing unless he comes back
      the same kind of guy he left.

      But what happened is there were three of them coining and
      someone wasn't paying attention.

      >>>>>Message: 2
      >>>>> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:47:25 -0700
      >>>>> From: "g.p.franck-weiby" <sfranckw@...>
      >>>>>Subject: Re: East Kingdom steel?
      >>If you want engraving burins look under chisels.
      >>They have, or had, sets of die sinkers chisels too.
      > "Chisels" sounds like the tools used by gun engravers, where the tool is
      > driven by tapping with a light hammer.

      Right. I doubt if all impressions in dies were done by punches
      alone, especially the later you get. Iron and metal chiselling
      (Eisenhower (iron hewer) for example) was a very developed skill
      by the Renaissance right up to the early 1900's. Examples locks
      and armors amongst others.

      > I honestly don't know if that
      > technique was used for coining dies in period, but one of the moneyers from
      > Calontir who was briefly involved in the An Tir Guild (before deciding to
      > specialize in being a girdler) learned that technique from a gun engraver
      > and used it successfully on a number of coining dies. The type of
      > engraving I do (which gun engravers call 'push engraving') uses a different
      > form of the tools, which should be available from just about any supplier
      > of jewelers tools.

      I have somewhere around sixty to eighty engraving tools from
      the last couple of centuries. Many of mine are modified to
      carve items other than hard metals, like bone and antler or
      ivory. I have used them to carve jewelry metals and horn too.

      I picked up a set of probably trench art tools at an
      http://www.mwtca.org/ meeting a few years back and added
      the punches and chisels to my other embossing and chasing tools.
      These now number around 150.

      I have a number of books on engraving, including on guns, and
      for jewelry, but generally there is a lack of good books on
      Chasing and Repousse (one I have bought is highly overrated).

      I have done silver cloisonne and have all the equipment for it.
      I have yet to do the Limoges style of chiseled cells and painted
      enamels but I do have a lot of books and articles on medieval
      and earlier cloissone.

      >>I have made the dies and punching tools for the local coiners
      >>but don't usually strike any my self. A few years back we tried
      >>an experiment of roll empressing asiatic coins by etching the
      >>designs in metal plates and then putting planchets between those
      >>plates and a 3/8 inch by 4" x 6" steel plate and running it through
      >>a geared metal roller of the type used to squeeze sheets thinner.
      >>It worked but it also deformed the steel plate. I bought the
      >>roller press from the School of Engineering and it is generally
      >>larger and much higher geared than the models jewelers use.
      > The type of 'roller die' mill used for striking coins in late period was
      > like a rolling mill with the die faces sunk on the cylindrical rollers of
      > the mill (resulting in coins that were slightly curved and oblong). Such a
      > 'walzenwerk' mill could be made by adapting a rolling mill, but you'd need
      > to be minting a very large number of coins of the same type for the work of
      > tooling up to be worth it.

      I have two metal lathes. The mill is considerably more powerful,
      and slower, than the usual jeweler's rolling mills. It is geared
      tremendously. Still, I am thinking of buying a combination mill
      that can roll different patterns or engraving patterns on rollers
      I could make for say - leather belts. The individual rollers
      wouldn't cost that much for materials. When I might get around
      to being able to do this is another matter. My disability is pretty
      bad most of the time.

      >>When I get around to welding again one day I might like to make
      >>a drop press like I have seen used to strike medals at RennFaire.
      >>The one I saw, and analog photographed seemed to work quite well.
      > At An Tir/West War this year I spent a long time talking shop with the
      > operator of one of the Renfaire drop-hammers (it turns out this individual
      > is also their die-cutter - it's all done with computer milling).

      Damn, that is nice, but beyond my finances.
      I have seen steel dies cut for the hammered aluminum plates and
      platters. There is a forge that does that by hand in central PA.
      Have seen it and photographed it. They hinge a transparency over
      a 1" steel plate and lift/engrave it with die sinkers chisels
      available from Brownells.com .

      > These
      > drop hammers were developed by an individual in northern California who now
      > franchises other people to work different regional RenFaire circuits
      > nation-wide. (The individual I talked to was planning to do more SCA
      > events because he found he was making more money at SCA events than at the
      > RenFaires he'd been doing.) Although the concept of these machines is very
      > simple, in fact they must be very precisely assembled, including precisely
      > machined critical parts, and very precisely set up on site; I was shocked
      > to learn that it costs $12,000 to build one that works right.
      > There is documentation that drop hammers were used to strike some of the
      > largest coins from the 1480's to as late as the early 18th century.
      > However, there is no documentation regarding the actual form of those drop
      > hammers. The closest thing to documentation I've seen is a design by
      > Leonardo da Vinci (of which one or more replicas have been built), but
      > according to Dennis Cooper (in Art & Craft of Coinmaking) it was probably
      > actually a design for a punch press for cutting blanks out of sheet - and
      > there's no documentation that anybody actually built a machine based on
      > that design in period.
      > Modern (i.e. 19th and early 20th century) industrial drop hammers are very
      > efficient and extremely powerful, but they work in a different way from the
      > RenFaire drop hammers. I'm inclined to suspect that the period drop
      > hammers used for coining were also different in key details from the
      > RenFaire drop hammers. The latter are very effective for what they're
      > designed to do, i.e. make a dramatic demo out of minting custom souvenir
      > medals one at a time, but they're not particularly efficient for bulk
      > production, including even the scale of what most SCA moneyers do.
      >>Then again I am seriously considering buying both a powered
      >>Bonny Doon hydraulic press...
      > Presumably that's something better made that the Chinese made Harbor
      > Freight hydraulic presses.

      Yes, consideably, Bonnie Doon 20 or 50 ton units actually.
      They can be ordered with electric pumps for the hydraulics
      which is something I am considering myself.

      >>...and an Ngraver system...

      > I'm guessing that's a pneumatic chisel type engraving machine?

      Yes it is, and I am planning on dumping a couple thousand US dollars
      on one. My upper back muscles have a tendency to cause referred pain
      from the spinal nerve exits (trigger points) into my trunk and legs
      now. The last time I did much with my hands it took six months almost
      for the referred pain to drop in my chest. It gets a bit more
      distressing when it is in your abdomen I can tell you. That tends
      to pop up from time to time. I was a full time professional craftsman.
      Short of blindness, or a Christopher Reeve imitation, this is not
      the ideal state for a craftsman to develop. Next month I see the
      top pain specialist in the state at Duke U. Hospital.

      It is the only way I can see continuing to carve, which I like a
      lot. I was working on a booklet on bone and antler carving projects
      but only got half of them done before I got too bad to continue
      by hand without the assistance of rotary tools. Being as how I
      also contracted near deadly pneumonia (105° and growing) I want
      a much better dust extraction system before I continue. It is
      amazing how quick they can cure you these days. I spent two days
      in the emergency room ward and ICU on massive IV antibiotics.
      This was much shorter than the four times I had asthma (now outgrown
      thank God) with pneumonia or pleurisy as a child that took weeks.

      Right now, and probably for about the next year, I am waiting for
      one house to sell so we can take our portion of it and build on
      a massive addition to this one or move to a much larger home.

      > Ian
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > Message: 2
      > Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:39:00 -0700
      > From: "g.p.franck-weiby" <sfranckw@...>
      > Subject: Re: Digest Number 350
      > At 10:21 AM 9/24/2004 -0400, Magnus wrote:
      >>>If the question of how to keep the dies 'lined up' by some means that could
      >>>get 'stuck' is an indirect way of asking how to do hand hammering without
      >>>holding the dies by hand, then that's a different issue altogether.
      >>Why not line them up with the inside angle of a piece of Angle Iron?
      >>If you get something trapped that way, well that is plainly pathetic.
      >>Should be easy in, easy out. At an angle with a welded on bottom
      >>everything could be naturally self-aligning.
      >>I realize this is far too easy a solution.
      > Given the shapes of the pieces of metal involved, it sounds like it might
      > actually be similar to what was done in period (hoping for a little more
      > detail on this from Grunal).

      Thank you, I thought it made sense.
      But I cannot document it.
      I do recall rings being found in things like the Mastermyr Chest.
      I had presumed they were for punching holes as support like a
      pritchel hole in an anvil however. Still, I could see similar
      things used for aligning dies.

      >>My 1804 engish Cartwheel Tuppend.
      I see my brain mistyped that Tuppence.
      It is gradually calcifying chronically.
      Sometimes I transpose whole words in sentences.

      > Just to be picky,

      I can take most legitimate criticism calmly....

      > the 'Cartwheel' tuppence pieces were a one-year type
      > dated 1797 and probably actually all struck that year (on steam powered
      > screw presses), although the companion piece 1797 one penny pieces were
      > probably struck for several years (as late as 1805) with the frozen date
      > 1797.

      I still have it, but I haven't drug it out in years. I thought the date
      was 1804 however, but I could be wrong. Massive thing though.

      > As for the thought, 'my two <cents> worth' was the early American
      > analog for the English '<penny> for your thoughts' because the British
      > penny of the late 18th century was worth about two U.S. cents (to be more
      > precise, it was 54 pence sterling to the Spanish 'milled dollar' that was
      > the basis of the U.S. silver dollar). Calling 'cents' 'pennies' is a
      > purely modern American careless use of language that Americans couldn't
      > afford shortly after independence. Of course it should sound absurd to us
      > mediaeval moneyers because we know that a penny is a silver coin - and
      > cents never were.
      > Ian
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