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Moneyers Moot

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  • emmrikus
    Greetings Thumbsmashers, Has anyone noticed that our numbers have jumped again-I find that that is amazing how the Craft is spreading. All you newbies should
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 13, 2003
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      Greetings Thumbsmashers,


      Has anyone noticed that our numbers have jumped again-I find
      that that is amazing how the Craft is spreading. All you newbies
      should chime in and let us know where you are and what your doing.
      Also lets do a message check and see who's reading this week-
      everyone send in a post-even if its just to say hi and your out
      there.
      News from the world...Purg gave us a chance to host Ian down
      from An Tir for a Westie event and gave us a little window to the
      Kingdom and a fun bit of display.It was the First time we showed off
      the Traveling Museum.Plus we made some really cool punches for an
      upcoming Edward I penny.
      October Crown just past and Moneyers Guild got a great spot
      on the corner of the Eric. It was helpful to get more traffic flow
      and we got a few old Cynaguan Moneyers to come back in.
      Coming up will be a detailed workshop and Moneyers Moot set
      for Baroney of Rivenoak's Yule Feast this year.I invite any would be
      and old Moneyers to come to this event and that old time Guild
      feeling again.

      Lets hear from the masses,

      Emmerich
    • Brad
      ... Hey, A newbie here, I m from the shire of Iron Ox, the principality of Gleann Abhann in Meridies. I found the meridies moneyer s guild website last week,
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 13, 2003
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        --- In sca_moneyer@yahoogroups.com, "emmrikus" <emrik@p...> wrote:
        >
        > Greetings Thumbsmashers,
        >
        >
        > Has anyone noticed that our numbers have jumped again-I find
        > that that is amazing how the Craft is spreading. All you newbies
        > should chime in and let us know where you are and what your doing.
        > Also lets do a message check and see who's reading this week-
        > everyone send in a post-even if its just to say hi and your out
        > there.

        Hey, A newbie here,
        I'm from the shire of Iron Ox, the principality of Gleann Abhann in
        Meridies.
        I found the meridies moneyer's guild website last week, made some
        punches and cast my first coin today.

        I used some scrap aluminum signs from when I made my armor, stamped
        some stuff on one side and etched a ram on the other.

        I got decent results but the pewter cools too fast so I'm going to
        put some pieces of wood between the mold and the vise and see if that
        will keep the mold hotter. I started with the aluminum mainly as
        practice since it's easy to punch/etch.

        I've got another project I have to finish up but I expect in a about
        a month I will start working on a die.

        My device is gules three staples or, so I'm using a staple as my
        maker's mark. It looks like a three sided square with pointed teeth.
        Is that ok to use for my mark?

        I'm really enjoying this,
        -Valgarðr
      • g.p.franck-weiby
        ... I read all of my e-mail (fortunately I don t get too much, and my server has a particularly aggressive spam filter). Ian
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 13, 2003
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          At 01:51 AM 10/14/2003 -0000, Emmricus wrote:
          >
          > Also lets do a message check and see who's reading this week-
          > everyone send in a post-even if its just to say hi and your out
          > there.

          I read all of my e-mail (fortunately I don't get too much, and my server
          has a particularly aggressive spam filter).

          Ian
        • Brian Kwan
          Greetings everyone, A couple of months ago I did my first portraits of the K&Q on a penny, instead of the Kingdom device that I normally put on them. The King
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 15, 2003
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            Greetings everyone,

            A couple of months ago I did my first portraits of the K&Q on a penny,
            instead of the Kingdom device that I normally put on them. The King looked
            good, but I think the Queen could have looked a bit nicer. The facial
            features used fewer new punches than I initially expected though.

            I noticed the little dent in the middle of a halfgroat that I have, as
            somebody on this list once pointed out, so I got a compass and replaced the
            lead with a sharpened drill bit. I intend to use it to scratch out nice
            round circles as a guide for punching dots around the dies. Hope it neatens
            up my coins a bit.

            I would like to know if there is anyone else planning to produce coins here
            in Lochac.

            Regards Brian
          • g.p.franck-weiby
            ... Have you sent specimens to the Master Emmerich for the Guild Museum? ... I ve seen evidence of this technique used on coins ranging from an Ummayyad dirhem
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 16, 2003
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              At 08:14 PM 10/15/2003 +1300, Brian wrote:
              > Greetings everyone,
              >
              > A couple of months ago I did my first portraits of the K&Q on a penny,
              > instead of the Kingdom device that I normally put on them. The King looked
              > good, but I think the Queen could have looked a bit nicer. The facial
              > features used fewer new punches than I initially expected though.
              >
              Have you sent specimens to the Master Emmerich for the Guild Museum?

              > I noticed the little dent in the middle of a halfgroat that I have, as
              > somebody on this list once pointed out, so I got a compass and replaced the
              > lead with a sharpened drill bit. I intend to use it to scratch out nice
              > round circles as a guide for punching dots around the dies. Hope it neatens
              > up my coins a bit.

              I've seen evidence of this technique used on coins ranging from an Ummayyad
              dirhem dated AH93 (I think that would be CE712) to a French 1/3 ecu dated
              1720. Some scribe tools have replaceable points - one of which might fit in
              a compass better.
              >
              > I would like to know if there is anyone else planning to produce coins here
              > in Lochac.
              >
              Are you in touch with Gabriel "Thanatos" Kalothetos (mka Andrew
              Donaldson-Hollis) in Wodonga, Victoria?

              I.N.S.Eligius & S. Dunstanus -

              Ian
            • Nikolaus von Stahlburg
              Greetings one and all, Yes, I ve been lurking on the list for a couple months now. I haven t struck any coins as of yet, but I m looking to produce something
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 16, 2003
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                Greetings one and all,

                Yes, I've been lurking on the list for a couple months
                now. I haven't struck any coins as of yet, but I'm
                looking to produce something in the near future. My
                knight and his lady are looking to step up as Baron
                and Baroness in the near future. And I'm contemplating
                creating a "commemorative coin set" in their honor
                should that occur.

                The process I'm looking at, is using galvanic etching
                to create the dies, and simple "pewter" made from 95/5
                solder for the blanks.

                More pertinant information. I'm in the Citadel of the
                Southern Pass Barony in the Kingdom of the Outlands.

                Nikos

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              • John Kratochvil
                Hailsa, thumbsmashers! Unfortunately, I have progressed slowly with my novice work on moneying. Real World and a bunch of really fun wars intruded into my
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 18, 2003
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                  Hailsa, thumbsmashers!

                  Unfortunately, I have progressed slowly with my novice work on moneying. Real World
                  and a bunch of really fun wars intruded into my plans to be striking by now. However,
                  the fall is here, and I am about to finish up my outside obligations. I'm very much
                  looking forward to getting started on moneying again.

                  I've been spending some time securing a workspace, as here in the Barony of Borealis,
                  Principality of Avacal, An Tir the weather's already turning cold and no fun to work
                  outdoors in. This is almost finished- though I'm going to have to investigate a bit more
                  ventilation for when I'm running the torch...

                  After that, the next priority is finishing my set of punches. I've got help with that at
                  least- Sir Vik Vikingson resides here in Borealis now, and is a gifted metalworker. He
                  does detailed puchwork, and agrees that moneying has much in common with the metal
                  work he has been doing.

                  One question though- in the Moneyers Handbook, Master Emmerich lists the basic set of
                  punches. For working on 3/4" pennies, roughly what size are these punches? I've formed
                  some well shaped punches and then realized that they were far off scale to use
                  practically for lettering on the perimiter... When I'm learning a new craft, I'm very much
                  an absolutes kind of guy- learn to do it precisely, then interpret and mess around with it.

                  Hope everyone else is enjoying success with their projects,
                  YIS
                  Lord Lars of the Broken Wheel
                • g.p.franck-weiby
                  ... these ... The beading punch I use for borders of all period styles is about .5mm in diameter (it can be sunk more shallowly to make smaller beads). For
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 19, 2003
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                    At 04:30 PM 10/18/2003 -0000, Lars wrote:
                    > Hailsa, thumbsmashers!
                    >
                    > ... the next priority is finishing my set of punches. I've got
                    >help with that at
                    > least- Sir Vik Vikingson resides here in Borealis now, and is a gifted
                    >metalworker. He
                    > does detailed puchwork, and agrees that moneying has much in common with
                    >the metal
                    > work he has been doing.
                    >
                    > One question though- in the Moneyers Handbook, Master Emmerich lists the
                    >basic set of punches. For working on 3/4" pennies, roughly what size are
                    these
                    > punches? I've formed
                    > some well shaped punches and then realized that they were far off scale to
                    >use
                    > practically for lettering on the perimiter...

                    The beading punch I use for borders of all period styles is about .5mm in
                    diameter (it can be sunk more shallowly to make smaller beads). For late
                    Anglo-Saxon style letters, I've used a chisel shaped punch for letter stems
                    2.5mm long and ~1mm across the base of the 'shoulders'. For heads and feet
                    of letter strokes, I used an equilateral triangle ~1mm on a side, although
                    a slightly larger one would be good. Crescents for the 'bows' of letters
                    are one the same height as the stem and one half that size. For 13th
                    century style (e.g. penny of Henry III) I've used letter punches 3mm tall.
                    For late period style (late 13th - early 16th centuries) my 'Lombardic
                    Versal' style letter punch sets are 2.5mm tall for the fancier one and 2mm
                    tall for the plainer one. In the later styles, the letters are all as wide
                    as they are tall, while earlier styles can be more variable.

                    A good general rule for getting the most accurate look stylistically is to
                    base your coin on a specific period coin, and then carefully measure all of
                    the proportions of the design elements, as well as the positions and
                    proportions of relationships of the elements (e.g. on border beads, how big
                    are they? how close are they? - within their radius of each other? touching
                    each other? overlapping?, what's the letter spacing? what's the size of the
                    inner circle?, &c.). Once you can reproduce all of those proportions
                    accurately, then you can freely adapt a period design for SCA designs, and
                    the result will still have a period look to it.

                    In nomine Scs. Eligius & Scs. Dunstanus, bona fortuna,

                    Ian
                  • g.p.franck-weiby
                    ... Welcome! ... Such a stepping up is a good occasion to mint presentation pieces in their names, although a commemorative set is a rather modern concept.
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 19, 2003
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                      At 03:11 PM 10/16/2003 -0700, Nikos wrote:
                      > Greetings one and all,
                      >
                      > Yes, I've been lurking on the list for a couple months now.

                      Welcome!

                      >I haven't struck any coins as of yet, but I'm
                      > looking to produce something in the near future. My
                      > knight and his lady are looking to step up as Baron
                      > and Baroness in the near future. And I'm contemplating
                      >"commemorative coin set" in their honor
                      > should that occur.

                      Such a stepping up is a good occasion to mint presentation pieces in their
                      names, although a 'commemorative set' is a rather modern concept.
                      >
                      > The process I'm looking at, is using galvanic etching to create the dies,
                      and >simple "pewter" made from 95/5 solder for the blanks.

                      Leadless solder is good, galvanic etching - well, my brow is wrinkled (not
                      quite frowning). It should be needless to say that it's not a period
                      technology. We SCA moneyers make whatever compromises with period
                      technology that we need to, which is many. In this case, the result is
                      going to be coins that 1. don't look period, and 2. look funky. That's not
                      redundant, as a lot of period coins looked really funky - but funky in a
                      distinctly period way that these won't.

                      Nobody's going to beat you with a stick thicker than their thumb for
                      etching dies - if you have a good reason to use that technology. A good
                      reason could be that Their Excellencies need the coins soon, and there's no
                      other way to get them done in time for Court. That you have the technology
                      available and have experience with it from doing other kinds of things
                      wouldn't be such a good reason.

                      SCA moneyers have two distinct functions. One is to produce coins, medals,
                      and tokens to enhance various re-enactment activities. The other is to
                      educate the populace about 'this is what period money looked like, and it
                      looked that way because this is how it was made'. A lot of times we have
                      to sacrifice the second function to the first, e.g. when His Majesty says,
                      "Where're my coins?". Making people with pointy hats happy is a good
                      thing. However, if you can make an effort toward the second function, then
                      why not?

                      If you're already going to be hand hammering the coins, and you have some
                      kind of steel rod for the dies (i.e. presumably what you'd be doing the
                      etching on), then it's only a couple more of hours of work to punch in a
                      simple design and thus start getting experience with the technique. If you
                      don't have the punch tools yet, that's only a couple more hours of work to
                      make them; you could do beaded border, inscriptions, and a little cross
                      with half a dozen simple punches that you only need a mill bastard file to
                      shape.

                      If your Knight is expecting coins with a Renaissance portrait that you
                      think you could etch, but know you can't punch without a lot more practice,
                      then you're in a position to fulfill the second function of educating
                      people. Show them a photo (e.g. from Seaby's Coins of England) of a 9th
                      century Anglo Saxon penny with nothing but short inscriptions and a little
                      bitty cross (four impressions of a triangle punch) and explain, "that's
                      what's really period". You're studying this craft, so that makes you the
                      expert on what's period. I expect that it's the experience of most SCA
                      moneyers that most people are delighted to get a hand made coin with their
                      name on it, no matter how periodly funky (or even non-periodly funky) it
                      looks. So, if you can, give it a try before falling back on the expedient
                      of etching.

                      i.n.s.e.&s.d.,

                      Ian
                    • minstrel_11
                      I realize that casting coins is not really period at least not for Western Europe. But there are times when all one needs are a few pieces (say for a really
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 22, 2003
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                        I realize that casting coins is not really period at least not for
                        Western Europe. But there are times when all one needs are a few
                        pieces (say for a really large coin) and so casting is, I understand,
                        sometimes used by SCA moneyers.

                        Question is: do you ever cast coins or feast tokens, etc and if so,
                        which methodologies do you use? I am currently experimenting with
                        the Delft Clay method which is similar in some ways to sand casting.

                        Alfred
                      • g.p.franck-weiby
                        ... Yes, in fact, Master Emmerich started out casting pewter medals in, I believe, plaster molds (maybe he can jump in here with some technical info).
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 26, 2003
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                          At 03:04 AM 10/23/2003 -0000, Alfred wrote:
                          >
                          > I realize that casting coins is not really period at least not for Western
                          > Europe. But there are times when all one needs are a few
                          > pieces (say for a really large coin) and so casting is, I understand,
                          > sometimes used by SCA moneyers.
                          >
                          Yes, in fact, Master Emmerich started out casting pewter medals in, I
                          believe, plaster molds (maybe he can jump in here with some technical
                          info). Although it's not something the Guild teaches formally, it is
                          certainly the most practical method for making things like award medals
                          where too few pieces are needed to justify making steel dies (also large
                          medals are often desired, although in period they're primarily a
                          Renaissance phenomenon). If you're up for trying casting bronze or silver,
                          that's a period method used for making seal matrices (even the early ones
                          were sometimes quite large) - a related type of work that SCA moneyers are
                          sometimes called upon to do.

                          > Question is: do you ever cast coins or feast tokens, etc and if so,
                          > which methodologies do you use. I am currently experimenting with
                          > the Delft Clay method which is similar in some ways to sand casting.
                          >
                          In An Tir several years ago, one Guild member produced over a thousand cast
                          pewter site tokens for 12th Night/Coronation in the style of medieval
                          Chinese 'cash' coins (a type that was cast in period) using a soft stone
                          mold (a type of stone available at jewelers' supply stores specificallly
                          for that purpose). Such stone molds were used in the 13th and 14th
                          centuries in England to cast pewter pilgrim/tavern tokens that filled the
                          need for the smallest small change.

                          Stone and ceramic molds were widely used throughout period in Western
                          Europe for jewelry manufacturing. I have cast pewter blanks for
                          die-striking a late Roman coin type using a wooden mold (the melting
                          temperature of pewter is low enough that it doesn't burn the wood). If
                          you're not concerned about sticking to period materials, I am told that a
                          very convenient material for fine casting is 'TVG' (I think it's called), a
                          type of rubber designed to withstand high temperatures. If nobody on the
                          list can provide more information about it (or casting in general), then
                          the thing to do is to buttonhole a jeweler and pick his brains.

                          Ian
                        • Bren Mayhugh
                          ... Hello, I am Jared Phelp of Canterbury (mka Bren Mayhugh) and a newbie to the group and the art. In a search to make my SCA experience more dimensional, I
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 31, 2003
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                            > Has anyone noticed that our numbers have jumped again-I find
                            > that that is amazing how the Craft is spreading. All you newbies
                            > should chime in and let us know where you are and what your doing.
                            > Also lets do a message check and see who's reading this week-
                            > everyone send in a post-even if its just to say hi and your out
                            > there.

                            Hello, I am Jared Phelp of Canterbury (mka Bren Mayhugh) and a newbie
                            to the group and the art. In a search to make my SCA experience more
                            dimensional, I came upon this noble art. Basically lurking at the
                            moment since I really don't have the funds to start a new A&S
                            project, but I am definately interested in this kind of stuff.

                            I'm going to do a little searching in the files section once I get
                            home, but be on the lookout for questions soon!

                            As always,
                            -Jared
                          • J Coffman
                            Greetings Thumbsmashers, As Summer comes on, I want you all to know that The Moot for Aug 13-14 is still on-the site however is still NOT pinned down despite
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jul 12 11:44 AM
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                              Greetings Thumbsmashers,

                              As Summer comes on, I want you all to know that The Moot
                              for Aug 13-14 is still on-the site however is still NOT pinned down
                              despite my efforts. I have made a last great effort to email just
                              about
                              anyone in the Cheyenne area today. So I hope for replys tonight and
                              tomorrow. If all else fails we WILL meet at Curt Gowdy park near
                              Cheyenne,as the sites are first come first served-we will try to get
                              a
                              camp site Friday early to assure one for the weekend.
                              Do not despair my brethern this will work..if you any
                              ideals feel free to let me know.

                              Emmerich
                            • J Coffman
                              Greetings Thumbsmashers, IT S ON--so be there,SUNDAY,SUNDAY,SUNDAY! The First InterKingdom Moneyers Moot will be held in Loveland Colorado Sunday Aug 14th. at
                              Message 14 of 17 , Aug 1, 2005
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                                Greetings Thumbsmashers,

                                IT'S ON--so be there,SUNDAY,SUNDAY,SUNDAY!

                                The First InterKingdom Moneyers Moot will be held in Loveland
                                Colorado Sunday Aug 14th. at the home of Master Thorfin Graybeard.

                                Who: Approximate number of people- *I think 2 from the West and 3
                                from Northshield for sure will be there.*
                                When: 9am to 9pm, Sunday, August 14th, 2005
                                What: Regional Meeting of the SCA InterKingdom Moneyers Guild
                                Fees: *Will kick in as required*-*request to contribute!*

                                Proposed Agenda:
                                9..10 am: Introductions, discussion and promotion of
                                InterKingdom Moneyers Guild
                                10..12 am: Basic training by Master Emmerich

                                Lunch Break: Soup and Salad, or order out, etc.

                                1...3 pm: How the blind old man does it by Master Thorfinn
                                4...6 pm: Make things
                                6...9 pm: Potluck, grill burgers, revel, more discussion

                                Contact information:
                                Master Thorfinn Graybeard, a.k.a. Perry Wells
                                Email: pwells@...
                                Phone: 970-667-1284
                                Address: 3601 El Caminito, Loveland CO, 80537

                                Directions: Take I-25 to exit 255 (CO 402)in Colorado. Go West on CO
                                402
                                about 4 miles to US 287, then continue West one more mile to the
                                traffic
                                light at Taft Ave in Loveland.
                                Go South (left) on Taft Ave about 1.5 miles to Del Sol, which Tees
                                into Taft
                                from the West (right side of Taft). Del Sol goes 1 block West then
                                Tees
                                into El Caminito. Go South (left) on El Caminito to 3601 which is
                                the 5th
                                house on the West side (right) of the road. Park in the drive or on
                                the
                                East side of the road. There will be an SCA sign at the head of our
                                drive.

                                And for those that want to link up earlier I will be camping at Curt
                                Gowdy park outside Cheyenne on Saturday the 13th-and can pick up folks
                                that make it to Cheyenne. This is your chance to study and play a part
                                in the Interkingdom Guild. There will be some materials for sale that
                                I am bringing with me and Handbooks. Plus all who gather will get a
                                dandy Medallion denoting Guild rank and affiliation. Contact me asap.

                                Master Emmerich of Vakkerfjell
                                James M Coffman
                                3410 F St
                                Eureka ,CA 95003
                                707-441-1724
                                emrik@...

                                In Service, Master Emmerich
                              • bartelfitzneel
                                Hello! I want to thank Master Emmerich and Master Thorfinn for their instructions on how to use a rolling mill. Last night I final got mine to work properly
                                Message 15 of 17 , Aug 19, 2005
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                                  Hello!

                                  I want to thank Master Emmerich and Master Thorfinn for their
                                  instructions on how to use a rolling mill. Last night I final got mine
                                  to work properly and rolled three silver ounce coins down to .032.
                                  Thanks a heap. I've been grumpy with myself for buying an expensive
                                  tool and not being able to make it work.

                                  BTW I had a strange experience while annealing the silver. Not that
                                  I'm sure I was doing that right either. I heated the coins up til they
                                  glowed slightly and then quenched them in the nearby horse water tank.
                                  When the coins went in they let out a big hiss. And then after a pause
                                  of couple of seconds there was a second hiss. And you could see the
                                  bubbles for on the coin. First at the edge that went in first and then
                                  racing accross the surface of the coin. Any idea what was going with that?


                                  Bart
                                • Greg Franck-Weiby
                                  ... From: bartelfitzneel To: sca_moneyer@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 6:18 AM Subject: [sca_moneyer] Re: Moneyers Moot Hello! I want to thank
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Aug 19, 2005
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                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 6:18 AM
                                    Subject: [sca_moneyer] Re: Moneyers Moot

                                    Hello!

                                    I want to thank Master Emmerich and Master Thorfinn for their
                                    instructions on how to use a rolling mill. Last night I final got mine
                                    to work properly and rolled three silver ounce coins down to .032.
                                    Thanks a heap. I've been grumpy with myself for buying an expensive
                                    tool and not being able to make it work.

                                    BTW I had a strange experience while annealing the silver. Not that
                                    I'm sure I was doing that right either. I heated the coins up til they
                                    glowed slightly and then quenched them in the nearby horse water tank.
                                    When the coins went in they let out a big hiss. And then after a pause
                                    of couple of seconds there was a second hiss. And you could see the
                                    bubbles for on the coin. First at the edge that went in first and then
                                    racing accross the surface of the coin. Any idea what was going with that?


                                    Bart

                                    I don't know what the physics involved is (something about the water flashing into steam creating a momentary pocket of vacuum around the silver), but it's normal.  You weren't doing anything wrong. 
                                     
                                    Ian 


                                  • bartelfitzneel
                                    Is there going to be a secend Moneyer s Moot this year?
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Mar 29, 2006
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                                      Is there going to be a secend Moneyer's Moot this year?
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