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Re: [sca_moneyer] Re: Tempering Music Wire

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  • Elie Martel
    Blah, Blah, Blah . . . . Consider that gravers and punches face forces that are drastically different and will need separate treatment. Many of us can temper
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 1, 2012
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      Blah, Blah, Blah . . . .

      Consider that gravers and punches face forces that are drastically different and will need separate treatment.  Many of us can temper punches but have ZERO experience with gravers.

      But, let's get to the nutmeat.

      Greg,

      While it would be an adventure learning to make gravers out of "music wire" (a stupid name, why can't we address the metals we use by standard nomenclature?) a far more satisfactory method would be to purchase a selection of commercially available gravers.

      They will be cheaper when you consider lost labor and time of developing your own.  They will also be very much more reliable and predictable. Oh, did I mention SAFER!

      And to those of you who are about to complain about using something modern and commercial rather than scratch-made, complain to me when you've bloomed that iron and forged your own working dies in production quantities.

      But, if you would still like to try: a little bird tells me that a box of pole barn nails is a good start for the project.

      Elie


      On 2/29/2012 3:34 PM, henrikofhavn wrote:
       

      I just joined this list, so my comments may be behind the current discussion.

      It sounds like there is a mixed run of comments that I can perhaps help clarify.

      The term "Tempering" as applied to high carbon steel heat treatment is actually a "softening" process, not a hardening process, by itself. This is done after the steel has been hardened and is accomplished by heating the hardened steel to about the 350 to 550 degree F range. This heat causes the surface of the hard steel to react with the air and turn collor from a shiny white color to first pale yellow in the 390 degree F range to darker shades up to dark purple/blue in the 550 degree F range. See the following link for more information and a color vs. temperature chart. Go to: http://www.threeplanes.net/toolsteel.html

      The hardening of steel is done by heating the metal until it reaches what is called it's "critical" temperature which is about 1450 to 1500 degrees F. At this temperature the metal is heated to a glowing to bright red color. The atomic structure of the iron atoms changes at this temperature and the metal looses it's magnetic quality ( An easy test for this can be done with a cheap magnet being applied to a red hot bar of steel to see if it has reached this critical temperature and is no longer magnetic. Just stick it on a thin springy wire and see if it bends toward the steel due to it's attraction at colder temperatures and then looses this attraction at the critical temperature)

      Hardening in the steel occurs by way of "freezing" as it were, part of the atomic structure of the hi carbon steel atoms in this altered atomic pattern that it had at the high critical temperature. This happens by way of rapid cooling which "froze" some of the atoms in the metal's crystaline structure before they had a chance to move back to their normal orientation that they had when the steel was colder than at the critical temperature ( of about 1450 degrees F).

      Remember, all atoms in the universe, vibrate at any temperature above absolute zero temperature, (which is minus 459.67° on the Fahrenheit scale) and the hotter they are the more vigorous their vibration. It is this movement of the atoms that becomes big enough for them to hop out of their normal allignment when they reach critical temperature. As the metal heats the space between atoms grows ( heat expansion) and the room to move from one allignment pattern to another grows as the metal gets hotter It takes a small amount if time for all the atoms to move in and out of their different allignment pattterns and it is the rapid quenching and cooling of the metal which makes it shrink back to a smaller space between the atoms and interferes with this movement and makes hardening of steel possible.

      Quenching in oil or water will both make the steel hard! The difference between the two methods is the relatrive time it takes to cool the redhot steel. The thin water conducts the heat away from the steel faster than the thicker oil, by vaporiusiing at the surface and turning into micro steam particles which recondense in the adjacent colder water around it. Oil on the other hand is burned and forms a now organic compound and other combustion byproducts including some smoke and is slower to react and so draw heat away from the steel. Semisolids like crisco react even slower and so leave the steel slightly softer in the process.

      The tempering of hardened steel is the step that determines how brittle or tough the end product will be. This is properly done as a seperate process after the first quenching of the steel has been done and can be done several times if desired. It is necessary to clean the surface of a part of the steel so it's surface color can be seen as it is heated - if that is the method of heat control being used. On the other hand if an accurate thermometer in an oven is used, then it can be the method of temperature determnation instead.

      For thin wire tools it may be difficult to see accurately what color the metal is changing to and so the heat treatment may end up being off and so the tool may be too hard and break, as has been reported. When the heat is reach the cooling rate is immaterial and there is no difference in resulte between cooling in water, oil or air cooling.

      So saying to "temper" the steel in oil or water is not important, it is the "hardening" which is somewhat important, especially if no tempering is done afterward. But if tempering is done after hardening, then the hardening can be done in either oil or water since the following heat treatment of tempering will even out the result - if done correctly.

      The best results is to use an oven to temper in and set the temperature to about 44o degrees F and let the metal soak at that temperature for 15 minutes than cool at any rate in water , or oil or air. If this is too britle then heat the tool behind the tip so it grades in hardness from a softer blue spring steel color up to the pale yellow at the tip, as originally instructed.

      Henrik


    • James C
      That is what I like about you Elie...direct... I like the Pole nails idea...will have to investigate. I hope everyone can forgive my outburst...Good gravy my
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 1, 2012
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        That is what I like about you Elie...direct...

        I like the Pole nails idea...will have to investigate.

        I hope everyone can forgive my outburst...Good gravy my Lenten diet is starving out my brain...did I just say gravy?

        --- In sca_moneyer@yahoogroups.com, Elie Martel wrote:
        >
        > Blah, Blah, Blah . . . .
        >
        > Consider that gravers and punches face forces that are drastically
        > different and will need separate treatment. Many of us can temper
        > punches but have ZERO experience with gravers.
        >
        > But, let's get to the nutmeat.
        >
        > Greg,
        >
        > While it would be an adventure learning to make gravers out of "music
        > wire" (a stupid name, why can't we address the metals we use by standard
        > nomenclature?) a far more satisfactory method would be to purchase a
        > selection of commercially available gravers.
        >
        > They will be cheaper when you consider lost labor and time of developing
        > your own. They will also be very much more reliable and predictable.
        > Oh, did I mention SAFER!
        >
        > And to those of you who are about to complain about using something
        > modern and commercial rather than scratch-made, complain to me when
        > you've bloomed that iron and forged your own working dies in production
        > quantities.
        >
        > But, if you would still like to try: a little bird tells me that a box
        > of pole barn nails is a good start for the project.
        >
        > Elie
      • Greg Less
        I m certainly not dead set on making my own anything! When I have done searches for gravers online I keep coming up with pneumatic and/or electric ones a la
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 1, 2012
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          I'm certainly not dead set on making my own anything! 

          When I have done searches for gravers online I keep coming up with pneumatic and/or electric ones a la Dremel. Is there a good store to start looking at?

          Also, to everyone here, my sincere appreciation of your efforts to teach what you know. Often times, particularly online, we forget to say thank you. I don't want to be that guy, so..... Thanks!

          Cheers,
          -Greg.

          On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 4:21 AM, James C <emmrikus@...> wrote:
           


          That is what I like about you Elie...direct...

          I like the Pole nails idea...will have to investigate.

          I hope everyone can forgive my outburst...Good gravy my Lenten diet is starving out my brain...did I just say gravy?



          --- In sca_moneyer@yahoogroups.com, Elie Martel wrote:
          >
          > Blah, Blah, Blah . . . .
          >
          > Consider that gravers and punches face forces that are drastically
          > different and will need separate treatment. Many of us can temper
          > punches but have ZERO experience with gravers.
          >
          > But, let's get to the nutmeat.
          >
          > Greg,
          >
          > While it would be an adventure learning to make gravers out of "music
          > wire" (a stupid name, why can't we address the metals we use by standard
          > nomenclature?) a far more satisfactory method would be to purchase a
          > selection of commercially available gravers.
          >
          > They will be cheaper when you consider lost labor and time of developing
          > your own. They will also be very much more reliable and predictable.
          > Oh, did I mention SAFER!
          >
          > And to those of you who are about to complain about using something
          > modern and commercial rather than scratch-made, complain to me when
          > you've bloomed that iron and forged your own working dies in production
          > quantities.
          >
          > But, if you would still like to try: a little bird tells me that a box
          > of pole barn nails is a good start for the project.
          >
          > Elie


        • Brian Ferguson
          Some possibilities found with google: http://www.imcclains.com/catalog/engravingtools/index.html http://www.findingking.com/c-275-gravers.aspx
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 1, 2012
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            Some possibilities found with google:

            http://www.imcclains.com/catalog/engravingtools/index.html
            http://www.findingking.com/c-275-gravers.aspx
            http://www.stewmac.com/shopby/product/1676

            -Derian.

            On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 6:35 AM, Greg Less <greg.less@...> wrote:
             

            I'm certainly not dead set on making my own anything! 


            When I have done searches for gravers online I keep coming up with pneumatic and/or electric ones a la Dremel. Is there a good store to start looking at?

            Also, to everyone here, my sincere appreciation of your efforts to teach what you know. Often times, particularly online, we forget to say thank you. I don't want to be that guy, so..... Thanks!

            Cheers,
            -Greg.


            On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 4:21 AM, James C <emmrikus@...> wrote:
             


            That is what I like about you Elie...direct...

            I like the Pole nails idea...will have to investigate.

            I hope everyone can forgive my outburst...Good gravy my Lenten diet is starving out my brain...did I just say gravy?



            --- In sca_moneyer@yahoogroups.com, Elie Martel wrote:
            >
            > Blah, Blah, Blah . . . .
            >
            > Consider that gravers and punches face forces that are drastically
            > different and will need separate treatment. Many of us can temper
            > punches but have ZERO experience with gravers.
            >
            > But, let's get to the nutmeat.
            >
            > Greg,
            >
            > While it would be an adventure learning to make gravers out of "music
            > wire" (a stupid name, why can't we address the metals we use by standard
            > nomenclature?) a far more satisfactory method would be to purchase a
            > selection of commercially available gravers.
            >
            > They will be cheaper when you consider lost labor and time of developing
            > your own. They will also be very much more reliable and predictable.
            > Oh, did I mention SAFER!
            >
            > And to those of you who are about to complain about using something
            > modern and commercial rather than scratch-made, complain to me when
            > you've bloomed that iron and forged your own working dies in production
            > quantities.
            >
            > But, if you would still like to try: a little bird tells me that a box
            > of pole barn nails is a good start for the project.
            >
            > Elie



          • James C
            Keep on keeping on Greg, you will find that most folks here really are trying hard to share with you. I just had a bad day...and unfortunately this old Moneyer
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 1, 2012
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              Keep on keeping on Greg, you will find that most folks here really are trying hard to share with you. I just had a bad day...and unfortunately this old Moneyer let loose. Should have slept on it before engaging the angry fingers.

              Emmerich

              --- In sca_moneyer@yahoogroups.com, Greg Less <greg.less@...> wrote:
              >
              > I'm certainly not dead set on making my own anything!
              >
              > When I have done searches for gravers online I keep coming up with
              > pneumatic and/or electric ones a la Dremel. Is there a good store to start
              > looking at?
              >
              > Also, to everyone here, my sincere appreciation of your efforts to teach
              > what you know. Often times, particularly online, we forget to say thank
              > you. I don't want to be that guy, so..... Thanks!
              >
              > Cheers,
              > -Greg.
              >
              > On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 4:21 AM, James C <emmrikus@...> wrote:
              >
              > > **
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > That is what I like about you Elie...direct...
              > >
              > > I like the Pole nails idea...will have to investigate.
              > >
              > > I hope everyone can forgive my outburst...Good gravy my Lenten diet is
              > > starving out my brain...did I just say gravy?
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In sca_moneyer@yahoogroups.com, Elie Martel wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Blah, Blah, Blah . . . .
              > > >
              > > > Consider that gravers and punches face forces that are drastically
              > > > different and will need separate treatment. Many of us can temper
              > > > punches but have ZERO experience with gravers.
              > > >
              > > > But, let's get to the nutmeat.
              > > >
              > > > Greg,
              > > >
              > > > While it would be an adventure learning to make gravers out of "music
              > > > wire" (a stupid name, why can't we address the metals we use by standard
              > > > nomenclature?) a far more satisfactory method would be to purchase a
              > > > selection of commercially available gravers.
              > > >
              > > > They will be cheaper when you consider lost labor and time of developing
              > > > your own. They will also be very much more reliable and predictable.
              > > > Oh, did I mention SAFER!
              > > >
              > > > And to those of you who are about to complain about using something
              > > > modern and commercial rather than scratch-made, complain to me when
              > > > you've bloomed that iron and forged your own working dies in production
              > > > quantities.
              > > >
              > > > But, if you would still like to try: a little bird tells me that a box
              > > > of pole barn nails is a good start for the project.
              > > >
              > > > Elie
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • klessig
              Ellie wrote Blah, Blah, Blah . . . . ... And then ... What the heck are pole barn nails. (a stupid name, why can t we address the metals we use by standard
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 1, 2012
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                Ellie wrote
                Blah, Blah, Blah . . . .

                >While it would be an adventure learning to make gravers out of
                "music
                >wire" (a stupid name, why can't we address the metals we use
                by standard
                >nomenclature?) a far more satisfactory method would be to
                purchase a
                >selection of commercially available gravers.
                And then

                >But, if you would still like to try: a little bird tells me that
                a box
                >of pole barn nails is a good start for the project.
                What the heck are pole barn nails.
                (a stupid name, why can't we address the metals we use by standard
                nomenclature?)  Couldn't resist :)
                But seriously, I agree that good gravers are readily available.
                And I also agree that they make life easier (to the extent that  hand graving can be called easy.)
                OTOH, I also understand the occasional wish to "do it myself".
                It sounds to me like Greg  is using a LOT of force if he is snapping his graver at the point he describes, unless perhaps he is hammer engraving???
                My response in either case would be to anneal the WHOLE graver before starting, and then to harden just the tip, and then to draw the temper on the graver starting from the "non working" end.
                It is also possible, that his gravers are so thin, that when attempting to temper them, he is actually hardening them.  It is NOT the media you use to quench that determines how hard the steel gets, it is (among other things) how fast you go from above the transition temp, to well below it.
                 It is possible his gravers are cooling so fast that they are hardening when he removes the tempering flame.
                In that case I would recommend an oven or kiln tempering, or using a hot metal plate that you lay the graver on to temper. Just dump it in the water when you reach the temper color you want. If your piece of metal is below the transition point, that should prevent the graver from accidentally hardening.  You can use your torch to add heat to that chunk of metal. Just don't let it get red any where near the graver.




              • bart@bsaxton.com
                Pole barn nails are large (or at least long) ring shank high carbon nails. 20d and bigger. Pole barns are a common feature of the midwest, and so are the
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 1, 2012
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                  Pole barn nails are large (or at least long) ring shank high carbon
                  nails. 20d and bigger. Pole barns are a common feature of the midwest,
                  and so are the nails.
                  http://www.hardwareandtools.com/LBM-Bulk-Nails-00090202-50-Pound-20D-Oil-Qnch-Pole-Barn-Nl-6888713.html

                  I've made gravers out of them. They work. kinda. Store bought gravers
                  are better and not much more expensive. Pole barn nails are hard.
                  Harder than "nails" usually are. And I had some laying around.

                  bart
                • henrikofhavn
                  They sound similar to masonry nails which I first encountered in Pennsylvania in an Amish country hardware store, and later found in my local Home Depot store.
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 1, 2012
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                    They sound similar to masonry nails which I first encountered in Pennsylvania in an Amish country hardware store, and later found in my local Home Depot store. Those nails come in various sizes (about 4 inches long in Pennsylvania and some 3 inches long in Home Depot)and taper along their length from a wide squarish head to a smaller blunt point and are rectangular in cross section, not round, with no rings on the shank. They are high carbon steel - to not deform when hammered into masonry cracks and green concrete - and can be heat treated for metal cutting purposes. I've not done it myself, but have heard them recommended for it.

                    Henrik

                    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                    --- In sca_moneyer@yahoogroups.com, bart@... wrote:
                    >
                    > Pole barn nails are large (or at least long) ring shank high carbon
                    > nails. 20d and bigger. Pole barns are a common feature of the midwest,
                    > and so are the nails.
                    > http://www.hardwareandtools.com/LBM-Bulk-Nails-00090202-50-Pound-20D-Oil-Qnch-Pole-Barn-Nl-6888713.html
                    >
                    > I've made gravers out of them. They work. kinda. Store bought gravers
                    > are better and not much more expensive. Pole barn nails are hard.
                    > Harder than "nails" usually are. And I had some laying around.
                    >
                    > bart
                    >
                  • Elie Martel
                    ... Other people here, who are not interested simply hearing themselves, understand my love of irony. Elie
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 1, 2012
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                      On 3/1/2012 1:49 PM, klessig wrote:  

                      Ellie wrote
                      Blah, Blah, Blah . . . .

                      >While it would be an adventure learning to make gravers out of "music
                      >wire" (a stupid name, why can't we address the metals we use by standard
                      >nomenclature?) a far more satisfactory method would be to purchase a
                      >selection of commercially available gravers.
                      And then

                      >But, if you would still like to try: a little bird tells me that a box
                      >of pole barn nails is a good start for the project.
                      What the heck are pole barn nails.
                      (a stupid name, why can't we address the metals we use by standard
                      nomenclature?)  Couldn't resist :)
                      Other people here, who are not interested simply hearing themselves, understand my love of irony.

                      Elie


                      But seriously, I agree that good gravers are readily available.
                      And I also agree that they make life easier (to the extent that  hand graving can be called easy.)
                      OTOH, I also understand the occasional wish to "do it myself".
                      It sounds to me like Greg  is using a LOT of force if he is snapping his graver at the point he describes, unless perhaps he is hammer engraving???
                      My response in either case would be to anneal the WHOLE graver before starting, and then to harden just the tip, and then to draw the temper on the graver starting from the "non working" end.
                      It is also possible, that his gravers are so thin, that when attempting to temper them, he is actually hardening them.  It is NOT the media you use to quench that determines how hard the steel gets, it is (among other things) how fast you go from above the transition temp, to well below it.
                       It is possible his gravers are cooling so fast that they are hardening when he removes the tempering flame.
                      In that case I would recommend an oven or kiln tempering, or using a hot metal plate that you lay the graver on to temper. Just dump it in the water when you reach the temper color you want. If your piece of metal is below the transition point, that should prevent the graver from accidentally hardening.  You can use your torch to add heat to that chunk of metal. Just don't let it get red any where near the graver._,_._,___

                    • Elie Martel
                      ... Sounds that way, but aren t. Elie
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 1, 2012
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                        On 3/1/2012 4:24 PM, henrikofhavn wrote:
                         

                        They sound similar to masonry nails which I first encountered in Pennsylvania in an Amish country hardware store, and later found in my local Home Depot store. Those nails come in various sizes (about 4 inches long in Pennsylvania and some 3 inches long in Home Depot)and taper along their length from a wide squarish head to a smaller blunt point and are rectangular in cross section, not round, with no rings on the shank. They are high carbon steel - to not deform when hammered into masonry cracks and green concrete - and can be heat treated for metal cutting purposes. I've not done it myself, but have heard them recommended for it.

                        Henrik,_._,___

                        Sounds that way, but aren't.

                        Elie

                      • klessig
                        Well, in that case www.ottofrei.com in particular, http://www.ottofrei.com/store/product.php?productid=5106&page=1 (if that doesn t work search their page for
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 3, 2012
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                          Well, in that case
                          www.ottofrei.com
                          in particular,
                          http://www.ottofrei.com/store/product.php?productid=5106&page=1
                          (if that doesn't work search their page for
                          "

                          Grobet Graver Carbon Steel Lozenge 3

                          "

                          They also have sets
                          http://www.ottofrei.com/store/product.php?productid=5267&page=1
                          THe individual gravers require that you also get/make handles.

                          I use shapelock to make my handles, to fit my hands perfectly.
                          http://shapelock.com/page4.html  but Wooden handles work fine too.


                          I use FreiBorell / Otto Frei  for many of my purchases that are metalworking related.

                          I find them quite friendly.  I also use Rio Grande.

                          But any place  that sells jewelry supplies ought to have gravers.
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