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WKM, Beltane

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  • geoffroibonfils
    Sorry to take SCA wide bandwidth for Kingdom stuff, will there be a meeting at Beltane and if so where/when? Geoffroi
    Message 1 of 12 , May 1, 2007
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      Sorry to take SCA wide bandwidth for Kingdom stuff, will there be a
      meeting at Beltane and if so where/when?

      Geoffroi
    • Dubhgall Monetarius
      Yes, Geoffroi, there will be a meeting, or Moot , as Emmerich likes to call them. I imagine that it will be on Saturday likely in the afternoon. The WKMG will
      Message 2 of 12 , May 1, 2007
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        Yes, Geoffroi, there will be a meeting, or "Moot", as Emmerich likes to
        call them. I imagine that it will be on Saturday likely in the
        afternoon. The WKMG will have a pavilion setup just off the Eric a pace
        or two. You can recognize it by the sign out front and the noise on the
        inside. You and any other moneyers attending Beltene are welcome and
        encouraged to stop by to hang out or lend a hand, bring examples of
        your work, and all of your questions. Heck I am even planning to cut
        another die on site that day. Come early and come by often.

        See you soon,

        Dubhgall

        PS For anyone who is interested there is a West specific moneyers list
        that where all are welcome. You can find it at
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/west_moneyer/?yguid=177139618 (its
        called: west_moneyer)


        On May 1, 2007, at 9:05 AM, geoffroibonfils wrote:

        > Sorry to take SCA wide bandwidth for Kingdom stuff, will there be a
        > meeting at Beltane and if so where/when?
        >
        > Geoffroi
        >
        >
        >
      • Yrsa Hrolfsdottir
        That is awesome, I am looking forward to watching and learning more about the craft. See you there. YIS Yrsa Hrolfsdottir
        Message 3 of 12 , May 2, 2007
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          That is awesome, I am looking forward to watching and learning more
          about the craft.
          See you there.

          YIS
          Yrsa Hrolfsdottir
        • Katherine T.
          What a lovely presentation you all made at Beltane and what beautiful photos! I was privileged enough to have sat close and thus able to catch some of the many
          Message 4 of 12 , May 7, 2007
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            What a lovely presentation you all made at Beltane and what beautiful photos!
            I was privileged enough to have sat close and thus able to catch some of the many coins with
            which you "darkened the skies!" Very nice, indeed!

            I shared a couple of coins with some in my shire that had not caught any. One woman asked
            "How can you tell the true silver coins from the others?" I had no answer for her. Can you tell
            me how does one tell the difference, so that I can share that information with her. I made a
            guess and told her perhaps it was by weight. Just a guess, mind you.

            Anyway, it was wonderful to see the Guild so well represented at King Uther's and Queen
            Kara's last court. A "striking" ensemblage to be sure!

            YIS
            Yrsa
          • J Coffman
            And why didn t you come by and chat? Emmerich ... beautiful photos! ... some of the many coins with ... any. One woman asked ... answer for her. Can you tell
            Message 5 of 12 , May 7, 2007
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              And why didn't you come by and chat?


              Emmerich

              --- In sca_moneyer@yahoogroups.com, "Katherine T."
              <Yrsa.Hrolfsdottir@...> wrote:
              >
              > What a lovely presentation you all made at Beltane and what
              beautiful photos!
              > I was privileged enough to have sat close and thus able to catch
              some of the many coins with
              > which you "darkened the skies!" Very nice, indeed!
              >
              > I shared a couple of coins with some in my shire that had not caught
              any. One woman asked
              > "How can you tell the true silver coins from the others?" I had no
              answer for her. Can you tell
              > me how does one tell the difference, so that I can share that
              information with her. I made a
              > guess and told her perhaps it was by weight. Just a guess, mind you.
              >
              > Anyway, it was wonderful to see the Guild so well represented at
              King Uther's and Queen
              > Kara's last court. A "striking" ensemblage to be sure!
              >
              > YIS
              > Yrsa
              >
            • Kristin Johnsen
              Unto Lady Yrsa, Greetings from Raymond von dem Lowengrab. My Lady, In answer to your question on determining whether a coin is silver or not, here are some
              Message 6 of 12 , May 8, 2007
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                Unto Lady Yrsa, Greetings from Raymond von dem Lowengrab.
                My Lady,
                 In answer to your question on determining whether a coin is silver or not, here are some general methods used, both in period, and today, to determine if that piece of metal in your hand is pure, Stirling [92.5%], coin [90%], bullion [50-90%], billion [5-49%], potin [about 1-5%] silver, or if it is tin....
                1) EXPERIENCE: I know this seems trite, but for an initial test as to whether a coin is silver, having some familiarity with it's properties- namely color and sound, can give you your first clue that you might have a piece of silver in your hand
                COLOR: Most people have the conception that silver is, well, "silver" in color. If you look closely at a silver coin at "coin" grade [any US minted pieces] or higher [without oxidation on it] you will notice that it is a "White" color which will turn more "Grayish" as the purity drops. If you use an ingot, make sure that you use one that is made for bullion [such as one stamped with "Engelhard"] instead of an "Art bar" [with a "pretty picture" on it]. the art bars are sometimes made with a coating of palladium plating them to give them a "Shine" that is totally deceptive. Oxidation, especially on older coins, can change this- sometimes in stunning ways when the patena turns into a rainbow of color. [BTW: if you ever get an old coin that has a good, even, patina, do not clean it off. This layer of oxidation actually preserves the coin from further damage. [Simular to the blueing of firearms- oxidizing the steel to prevent damaging rust]
                SOUND: A piece of pure silver [what most SCA silver coinage is made from] has a distinctive "chime" sound when droped onto a hard surface like an anvil or steel plate. As the silver becomes more alloyed, the chime becomes more "dull" in sound. This "chime", or "ring" is a property that makes silver valued for musical instuments. [I myself have a harp that I'm stringing with silver wire for just that reason.] This is another "Rule of thumb" method that requires experience. Take a pair of SCA coins that you know to be silver and tin/antimony, drop them on a surface and listen. Do it several times, then for a test, put the silver penny into a group of of tin pennie, close your eyes and dropp them one by one and try and pick out the silver- it's not as hard as you might think.
                 I occasionally use silver bearing solder for limited and special runs. It has about 1.5% silver content which gives it just enough "whiteness" to make it look "silver" and when dropped, it gives a nice ring that is a step above the tin.
                But, if you want a more accurate determination of your coin, here is two methods that go back to the ancient Greeks; touchstone and cupellation.
                TOUCHSTONE: The touchstone is a black, igneous rock that a silver, or gold, sample is rubbed against to leave a mark. with this you use a "touch needle" made of a known alloy of the metal tested which is rubbed next to it an compared visually. Experienced jewlers and assayers can tell right off, with reasonable accuracy, if the metal matches the known alloy. not only by the color, but by the feel and observation of samples during the rubbing.
                 Should a further test be needed, acid is applied [for silver a mix of 3 parts nitric acid, 1 part HCL]. Good silver creates a "cheesy" foam consisting of silver chloride. If copper is present, it will turn greenish. Lower quality alloys will dissolve more rapidly than higher.
                CUPELLATION: Uses lead [oxide] in a special crucible [cupel] that is placed in a furnace. First a sample is weighed and recorded, then it is wrapped in a specific quantity of lead foil in ratio to the estimated percentage of precious metal [silver and/or gold].
                 The lead, when melted and exposed to an air-blast turns into lead oxide that oxidizes tin and copper [two most common alloying metals] allowing them to flow away from the precious metals [which resist oxidation better] and are absorbed by the "cupel".
                 The oxide, if everything goes to plan, forms a glassy coat that prevents the precious metals from passing into the cupel where they are removed when cool and weighed, and possibly refined with acids [to remove silver from gold] in a further step.
                 The end weight is compared with the beginning weight to determine the percentage of precious metals in the material tested.
                Hope this brief, and not very technical, reply helps. Any further questions, I am at your service.
                Raymond von dem Lowengrab.
                "Katherine T." <Yrsa.Hrolfsdottir@...> wrote:
                What a lovely presentation you all made at Beltane and what beautiful photos!
                I was privileged enough to have sat close and thus able to catch some of the many coins with
                which you "darkened the skies!" Very nice, indeed!

                I shared a couple of coins with some in my shire that had not caught any. One woman asked
                "How can you tell the true silver coins from the others?" I had no answer for her. Can you tell
                me how does one tell the difference, so that I can share that information with her. I made a
                guess and told her perhaps it was by weight. Just a guess, mind you.

                Anyway, it was wonderful to see the Guild so well represented at King Uther's and Queen
                Kara's last court. A "striking" ensemblage to be sure!

                YIS
                Yrsa


              • klessig
                Yrsa asked, I shared a couple of coins with some in my shire that had not caught any. One woman asked How can you tell the true silver coins from the
                Message 7 of 12 , May 8, 2007
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                  Yrsa asked,
                  "I shared a couple of coins with some in my shire that had not caught
                  any. One woman asked
                  "How can you tell the true silver coins from the others?" I had no
                  answer for her. Can you tell
                  me how does one tell the difference, so that I can share that
                  information with her. I made a
                  guess and told her perhaps it was by weight. Just a guess, mind you.

                  The easy way, to supplement Raymond's information, is by sound.
                  To give a comparison a silver coin rings like a little bell (which I
                  guess is why there are "silver bells")
                  especially when you drop it on an anvil, or shake a bunch.
                  The pewter coins sound more like dry leaves rustling. It is easy to
                  tell when you have both to hand.
                  {The silver has a crisper, brighter sound with more high frequency content.}

                  By pouring a handful of mixed coins on the anvil, you can count the silver.


                  There is also a distinct color difference, When both are new, by themselves
                  they both look white, or silvery.
                  Placed side by side however, there is a difference. To my eye, silver is
                  slightly Yellow and some times slightly green, AS COMPARED TO
                  PEWTER/TIN, while the pewter is slightly blue to my eye, similar to
                  aluminum.



                  The chance that more than one of the coins you caught is silver is slim.
                • Alexander
                  You can always use the tissue paper test- silver appears white through a piece of tissue paper laid on top of the coin in question, other silver-colored alloys
                  Message 8 of 12 , May 10, 2007
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                    You can always use the tissue paper test- silver appears white
                    through a piece of tissue paper laid on top of the coin in question,
                    other silver-colored alloys appear darker. This really works.

                    AvM

                    --- In sca_moneyer@yahoogroups.com, klessig <klessig@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Yrsa asked,
                    > "I shared a couple of coins with some in my shire that had not
                    caught
                    > any. One woman asked
                    > "How can you tell the true silver coins from the others?" I had no
                    > answer for her. Can you tell
                    > me how does one tell the difference, so that I can share that
                    > information with her. I made a
                    > guess and told her perhaps it was by weight. Just a guess, mind you.
                    >
                    > The easy way, to supplement Raymond's information, is by sound.
                    > To give a comparison a silver coin rings like a little bell (which
                    I
                    > guess is why there are "silver bells")
                    > especially when you drop it on an anvil, or shake a bunch.
                    > The pewter coins sound more like dry leaves rustling. It is easy to
                    > tell when you have both to hand.
                    > {The silver has a crisper, brighter sound with more high frequency
                    content.}
                    >
                    > By pouring a handful of mixed coins on the anvil, you can count the
                    silver.
                    >
                    >
                    > There is also a distinct color difference, When both are new, by
                    themselves
                    > they both look white, or silvery.
                    > Placed side by side however, there is a difference. To my eye,
                    silver is
                    > slightly Yellow and some times slightly green, AS COMPARED TO
                    > PEWTER/TIN, while the pewter is slightly blue to my eye, similar to
                    > aluminum.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The chance that more than one of the coins you caught is silver is
                    slim.
                    >
                  • Jeff Benefiel
                    Hmm, what kind of tissue ? I wrap finished jewelry in watch papers which are sold under the name of anti tarnish tissue . I can tell you that through watch
                    Message 9 of 12 , May 11, 2007
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                      Hmm, what kind of "tissue"? I wrap finished jewelry in 'watch papers'
                      which are sold under the name of 'anti tarnish tissue'. I can tell you
                      that through watch papers any mistakes I've made (fire scale from
                      soldering) become rather obvious but I haven't noticed an overall color
                      change. I'll bring some tin coins into work and see if I can see a change.

                      Another method, admittedly trite, is take to a pawn shop and see how
                      much they'll offer for it.

                      The best method is simply to weigh it with a jewelers scale. I know that
                      all of my silver pennies are in the 2.1 to 2.4 gram range, pewter
                      pennies should be much much lighter.

                      Geoffroi

                      Alexander wrote:

                      > You can always use the tissue paper test- silver appears white
                      > through a piece of tissue paper laid on top of the coin in question,
                      > other silver-colored alloys appear darker. This really works.
                      >
                      > AvM
                      >
                      > --- In sca_moneyer@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:sca_moneyer%40yahoogroups.com>, klessig <klessig@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Yrsa asked,
                      > > "I shared a couple of coins with some in my shire that had not
                      > caught
                      > > any. One woman asked
                      > > "How can you tell the true silver coins from the others?" I had no
                      > > answer for her. Can you tell
                      > > me how does one tell the difference, so that I can share that
                      > > information with her. I made a
                      > > guess and told her perhaps it was by weight. Just a guess, mind you.
                      > >
                      > > The easy way, to supplement Raymond's information, is by sound.
                      > > To give a comparison a silver coin rings like a little bell (which
                      > I
                      > > guess is why there are "silver bells")
                      > > especially when you drop it on an anvil, or shake a bunch.
                      > > The pewter coins sound more like dry leaves rustling. It is easy to
                      > > tell when you have both to hand.
                      > > {The silver has a crisper, brighter sound with more high frequency
                      > content.}
                      > >
                      > > By pouring a handful of mixed coins on the anvil, you can count the
                      > silver.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > There is also a distinct color difference, When both are new, by
                      > themselves
                      > > they both look white, or silvery.
                      > > Placed side by side however, there is a difference. To my eye,
                      > silver is
                      > > slightly Yellow and some times slightly green, AS COMPARED TO
                      > > PEWTER/TIN, while the pewter is slightly blue to my eye, similar to
                      > > aluminum.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > The chance that more than one of the coins you caught is silver is
                      > slim.
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                    • David T. Helmers
                      That gave me an idea - see if it transfers to white paper. Just tried it: traditional lead/tin pewter: transfers a distinct deep gray line. 98% tin, 2%
                      Message 10 of 12 , May 11, 2007
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                        That gave me an idea - see if it transfers to white paper. Just tried
                        it: traditional lead/tin pewter: transfers a distinct deep gray line.
                        98% tin, 2% antimony (lead-free solder): light hazy gray line.
                        Sterling siver: no transfer. I'll try nickle silver when I get home.
                        Tristan


                        --- In sca_moneyer@yahoogroups.com, "Alexander" <jinxmedic@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > You can always use the tissue paper test- silver appears white
                        > through a piece of tissue paper laid on top of the coin in
                        question,
                        > other silver-colored alloys appear darker. This really works.
                        >
                        > AvM
                        >
                        > --- In sca_moneyer@yahoogroups.com, klessig <klessig@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Yrsa asked,
                        > > "I shared a couple of coins with some in my shire that had not
                        > caught
                        > > any. One woman asked
                        > > "How can you tell the true silver coins from the others?" I had
                        no
                        > > answer for her. Can you tell
                        > > me how does one tell the difference, so that I can share that
                        > > information with her. I made a
                        > > guess and told her perhaps it was by weight. Just a guess, mind
                        you.
                        > >
                        > > The easy way, to supplement Raymond's information, is by sound.
                        > > To give a comparison a silver coin rings like a little bell
                        (which
                        > I
                        > > guess is why there are "silver bells")
                        > > especially when you drop it on an anvil, or shake a bunch.
                        > > The pewter coins sound more like dry leaves rustling. It is easy
                        to
                        > > tell when you have both to hand.
                        > > {The silver has a crisper, brighter sound with more high
                        frequency
                        > content.}
                        > >
                        > > By pouring a handful of mixed coins on the anvil, you can count
                        the
                        > silver.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > There is also a distinct color difference, When both are new, by
                        > themselves
                        > > they both look white, or silvery.
                        > > Placed side by side however, there is a difference. To my eye,
                        > silver is
                        > > slightly Yellow and some times slightly green, AS COMPARED TO
                        > > PEWTER/TIN, while the pewter is slightly blue to my eye, similar
                        to
                        > > aluminum.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > The chance that more than one of the coins you caught is silver
                        is
                        > slim.
                        > >
                        >
                      • Yrsa Hrolfsdottir
                        Forgive me, Excellency! I have had a crash of confidence of late which has damaged my courage to overcome a painfully shy and introverted nature. I walked by,
                        Message 11 of 12 , May 11, 2007
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                          Forgive me, Excellency!
                          I have had a crash of confidence of late which has damaged my courage
                          to overcome a painfully shy and introverted nature. I walked by, after
                          court, intending to stop in, but in seeing the pavilion full and busy
                          I continued to walk on.

                          Plus, I had arrived at camp at 3am that morning, having driven through
                          the night. But not wanting to wake and disturb the whole encampment, I
                          tried sleeping in my cramped little car in the parking lot, waiting
                          until after sunrise to set up my little camp. After court, after I
                          passed the Moneyers' Guild by, I returned to camp and fell asleep.
                          Sadly, I missed all the rest of the afternoon's events, Coronation
                          included, until I woke in time for the Bard of the West Competition.
                          Next time, I just leave early in the morning. I fear I have grown to
                          old to travel through the night and still have the energy to revel all
                          day.
                          Please forgive me for being weak. I will try to fortify myself for any
                          future opportunities to meet you all.

                          Speaking of opportunity, is anyone able and intending to come to
                          Spring Collegium? I still have two 90 minutes slots for Dr Richard
                          Cowen, Professor Emeritus from UC Davis, with his presentation taking
                          only 45 minutes of each, on the History of Gold and Silver. He will
                          be speaking about treasure hoards as well. I mentioned in previous
                          posts perhaps a moneyer's demonstration and a coinage exhibit would
                          blend nicely with his presentation and fill the extra time before and
                          after lunch.

                          I apologize for the lag in response time of this reply. I was sans PC
                          for a several days since my return from Beltane. My son added upgrades
                          to OS X my ISP did not want to deal with so I had no internet until
                          today.

                          Well, anyway, I am sorry that I did not stop by and introduce myself.
                          I did enjoy seeing you all at work and enjoying yourselves. As soon as
                          I can muster my resources, I will need to invest in some of the
                          essentials of the craft. I hope you will be patient with me.

                          with grave humility,

                          Yrsa









                          On 5/7/07, J Coffman <emmrikus@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > And why didn't you come by and chat?
                          >
                          > Emmerich
                          >
                          > --- In sca_moneyer@yahoogroups.com, "Katherine T."
                          >
                          > <Yrsa.Hrolfsdottir@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > What a lovely presentation you all made at Beltane and what
                          > beautiful photos!
                          > > I was privileged enough to have sat close and thus able to catch
                          > some of the many coins with
                          > > which you "darkened the skies!" Very nice, indeed!
                          > >
                          > > I shared a couple of coins with some in my shire that had not caught
                          > any. One woman asked
                          > > "How can you tell the true silver coins from the others?" I had no
                          > answer for her. Can you tell
                          > > me how does one tell the difference, so that I can share that
                          > information with her. I made a
                          > > guess and told her perhaps it was by weight. Just a guess, mind you.
                          > >
                          > > Anyway, it was wonderful to see the Guild so well represented at
                          > King Uther's and Queen
                          > > Kara's last court. A "striking" ensemblage to be sure!
                          > >
                          > > YIS
                          > > Yrsa
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Yrsa Hrolfsdottir
                          Thank you, all, for the wonderful advice and sound instruction in address to my question. You are a great resource! Gratefully yours, Yrsa
                          Message 12 of 12 , May 11, 2007
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                            Thank you, all, for the wonderful advice and sound instruction in
                            address to my question. You are a great resource!

                            Gratefully yours,

                            Yrsa
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