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Re: Medieval Coin Lot Being Sold

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  • klessig
    Ian, Have your ever seen any thing like 102 at all. None of the Alfred coins I could find look even remotely similar.Its flip side is at coin102, rather than
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 1, 2006
      Ian,


      Have your ever seen any thing like 102 at all.
      None of the Alfred coins I could find look
      even remotely similar.Its flip side is at coin102,
      rather than Coin102.

      I do notice, all of the ones I find suspect, are
      very round, tend to have a bur around the edge,
      and a number of them especially in the later part
      of the coins) have the same symbol, sort of like
      a "rams head" on it somewhere (or perhaps it is
      a "kilroy").

      All of the suspect ones, where punches were used
      have evidence of the "bright" burr that the punch
      leaves surrounding the punch mark, but larger than
      I would expect. Almost like the dies were done in
      some soft metal.
    • Greg Franck-Weiby
      Coin 102 is a poor copy of an extremely rare offering penny , described under Seaby #1072, but not illustrated. It is illustrated in English Coins, by George
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 7, 2006
        Coin 102 is a poor copy of an extremely rare 'offering penny', described under Seaby #1072, but not illustrated.  It is illustrated in English Coins, by George C. Brooke (Plate XIII, #13), where it's described as a piefort weighing over six pennyweight (Seaby describes it as being "very large and heavy", accounting for the flan being so much larger than the beaded border).  I'd guessed that "ELI/MO" was a moneyer named Eli (short for Eligius?), but it's actually an abbreviation of "Elimosina" (= 'alms').   
         
        Probably most of these fakes are of more or less rare types, which would suggest that whoever made them either had ambitions of get-rich-quick fraud far exceeding his abilities, or else he was innocently making acknowledged copies of rare coins for the benefit of collectors who'd never be able to afford the originals, but still wanted examples to show, much like the Gallery Mint Museum's copies of early U.S. coins of the 1790's (although, in contrast, GMM's die work and technical specifications are excellent - and, having been minted since 1973, they are marked "COPY").
         
        The "ram's head" or "kilroy" is a round M with an abbreviation bar over it.  I forget what it stands for, but it does appear on genuine coins.   A lot of these fakes are in fact less round than the genuine pieces, which are usually relatively neatly made.  That the edge burr is visible on pieces that aren't very round argues against the burr having been produced by an annular punch of some kind.  Assuming that 'bright burr' refers to the dip in the fields around design elements caused by bulges in the die face displaced by the process of the punch work, that's quite noticeable on a lot of the originals, although perhaps not quite as extreme.  It could indeed be a result of using softer metal for the dies. 
         
        The characteristics of the die work that identifies these as fakes are primarily that the border beads are too small, rough, and loosely spaced, while letter strokes are generally too thin.   Also, the die work is just plain sloppy compared to the photos of originals in Seaby and Brooke (although, I suppose those illustrated, having been chosen from the best available specimens, might not be representative of most coins of that period, although the multitudinous illustrations in Brooke suggest that neatly made specimens are plenty common.
         
        Ian
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: klessig
        Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 5:08 PM
        Subject: [sca_moneyer] Re: Medieval Coin Lot Being Sold

        Ian,

        Have your ever seen any thing like 102 at all.
        None of the Alfred coins I could find look
        even remotely similar.Its flip side is at coin102,
        rather than Coin102.

        I do notice, all of the ones I find suspect, are
        very round, tend to have a bur around the edge,
        and a number of them especially in the later part
        of the coins) have the same symbol, sort of like
        a "rams head" on it somewhere (or perhaps it is
        a "kilroy").

        All of the suspect ones, where punches were used
        have evidence of the "bright" burr that the punch
        leaves surrounding the punch mark, but larger than
        I would expect. Almost like the dies were done in
        some soft metal.

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