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RE: [SCA_Brew] Newbie question

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  • Jeff Sandison
    Really, because that is at odds with everything I ve ever read, I ve always been told to vigorously agitate for the at least one minute every day (preferably
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 1, 2009
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      Really, because that is at odds with everything I've ever read, I've always been told to vigorously agitate for the at least one minute every day (preferably twice/day) during the primary fermentation.

      Jeff "If there is anything the nonconformist hates worse than a conformist, it's another nonconformist who doesn't conform to the prevailing standard of nonconformity." --Bill Vaughan


       

      To: sca_brew@yahoogroups.com
      From: Ludwig@...
      Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 13:42:29 -0400
      Subject: Re: [SCA_Brew] Newbie question

       

      Oxygen is necessary for the initial reproduction of the yeast. But reproduction happend very quickly then yeast cycle go to eating sugar and producing alcool. Reproduction phase:  About 6h to 24h from pitchin a dry pack, less if you have already make a starter .
      This is the only phase where yeast need / should have oxygene. After that, avoid introducing oxygen in the fermenting wort, since the alcool production need to be done 'without oxygen' or problem may/will occur.
      In short to 'when should I stir/agitate' : usually at pitching time and possibly anytime in the next 12h.
      By the time you read this answer, that means don't stir this batch ;-)
      Ludwig




      On Fri 10/30/09 16:51 , "ozmodiusnc" ozmodiusnc@yahoo. com sent:

      Greetings all,

      Ive been lurking here for a bit, so I guess I should introduce myself...
      Michelangelo Giacomo Mastrogiovanni here from Barony Hawkwood in Atlantia. I am new to vinting, and just started my first batch of mead yesterday. I made and used a yeast starter that was similar in sg as my must, so after only an hour or so, it started fermenting like gangbusters. This is my question: Do I need to, and if so, how often, stir/agitate the must during the primary fermentation?

      Thanks in advance,

      YIS
      Michelangelo



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    • Master Barat FitzWalter Reynolds
      Aggitation is needed to get a fermentation going well. If it s already vigerious agitation serves no useful purpose. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 1, 2009, at
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 1, 2009
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        Aggitation is needed to get a fermentation going well. If it's already vigerious agitation serves no useful purpose. 

        Sent from my iPhone

        On Nov 1, 2009, at 7:06 PM, Jeff Sandison <puppeteer_@...> wrote:

         

        Really, because that is at odds with everything I've ever read, I've always been told to vigorously agitate for the at least one minute every day (preferably twice/day) during the primary fermentation.

        Jeff "If there is anything the nonconformist hates worse than a conformist, it's another nonconformist who doesn't conform to the prevailing standard of nonconformity. " --Bill Vaughan


         


        To: sca_brew@yahoogroups.com
        From: Ludwig@megaquebec. net
        Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 13:42:29 -0400
        Subject: Re: [SCA_Brew] Newbie question

         

        Oxygen is necessary for the initial reproduction of the yeast. But reproduction happend very quickly then yeast cycle go to eating sugar and producing alcool. Reproduction phase:  About 6h to 24h from pitchin a dry pack, less if you have already make a starter .
        This is the only phase where yeast need / should have oxygene. After that, avoid introducing oxygen in the fermenting wort, since the alcool production need to be done 'without oxygen' or problem may/will occur.
        In short to 'when should I stir/agitate' : usually at pitching time and possibly anytime in the next 12h.
        By the time you read this answer, that means don't stir this batch ;-)
        Ludwig




        On Fri 10/30/09 16:51 , "ozmodiusnc" ozmodiusnc@yahoo. com sent:

        Greetings all,

        Ive been lurking here for a bit, so I guess I should introduce myself...
        Michelangelo Giacomo Mastrogiovanni here from Barony Hawkwood in Atlantia. I am new to vinting, and just started my first batch of mead yesterday. I made and used a yeast starter that was similar in sg as my must, so after only an hour or so, it started fermenting like gangbusters. This is my question: Do I need to, and if so, how often, stir/agitate the must during the primary fermentation?

        Thanks in advance,

        YIS
        Michelangelo



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      • Cranium@san.rr.com
        Jeff, I am interested in what sources your information is from; is it from Brewing or Vinting books? The reason I ask is not to be argumentative, but my
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 1, 2009
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          Jeff,

          I am interested in what sources your information is from; is it from Brewing or Vinting books? The reason I ask is not to be argumentative, but my background is almost exclusively brewing and all my books and education say the opposite (once the wort has been oxigeonated and fermentation is started, leave it alone until you rack). My understanding of Vinting (with hardly any education, just from talking with vinters and comparing methods) is that there are reasons to agitate the must; to rouse the yeast, as it likes to flocculate out and can stall fermentation, and for reds to maximize contact with the skins.

          Now I also note you said you agitate which in a carboy with an airlock or blow off tube would likely not introduce more O2 as the fermentation process will create a CO2 blanket pushing other gasses up and out, but just bring the yeast and any trub up off the bottom and back into suspension. looking at it this way I think we may be talking about different things.

          Here is a pretty good document I found that looks to be a BJCP training presentation.
          http://www.keystonehomebrew.com/bjcpclass/Yeast%20and%20Fermentation.pdf
          The section on yeast starts on page 30.

          My understanding from training and personal experience is that the yeast should only have O2 at the start of the fermentation. I actually use an inline O2 injection setup like pro systems have, and notice that I have a longer lag than when I used a drop in stone (with pure O2). I have talked to a number of people, including Dr. Chris White from Whit Labs, and I believe that what is going on for me is a slightly longer lag/respiration phase as the yeast use the O2 and start reproduction.

          Dr White has done some personal research about dissolved O2 and homebrewing, as there has been controversy about too much O2 damaging the yeast (which it definitely can), and found that anything short of dissolving the O2 into the wort under pressure cant generate those levels. IIRC using air through a filter and stone will take 30 min to generate "good" saturation levels. Sorry but I can find the documentation for this at the moment. (I thought it was on the web site, but I could be wrong)

          Here is a discussion thread I found on yeast and O2:
          http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/crabtree-effect-over-aeration-128187/
          A lot of it is getting in to somewhat heavy microbiology, and as the discussion shows there is contradictory information out there.

          Cheers!
          Jason The Mad Brewer


          ---- Jeff Sandison <puppeteer_@...> wrote:
          >
          > Really, because that is at odds with everything I've ever read, I've always been told to vigorously agitate for the at least one minute every day (preferably twice/day) during the primary fermentation.
          >
          > Jeff "If there is anything the nonconformist hates worse than a conformist, it's another nonconformist who doesn't conform to the prevailing standard of nonconformity." --Bill Vaughan
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To: sca_brew@yahoogroups.com
          > From: Ludwig@...
          > Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 13:42:29 -0400
          > Subject: Re: [SCA_Brew] Newbie question
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Oxygen is necessary for the initial reproduction of the yeast. But reproduction happend very quickly then yeast cycle go to eating sugar and producing alcool. Reproduction phase: About 6h to 24h from pitchin a dry pack, less if you have already make a starter .
          >
          > This is the only phase where yeast need / should have oxygene. After that, avoid introducing oxygen in the fermenting wort, since the alcool production need to be done 'without oxygen' or problem may/will occur.
          >
          > In short to 'when should I stir/agitate' : usually at pitching time and possibly anytime in the next 12h.
          >
          > By the time you read this answer, that means don't stir this batch ;-)
          >
          > Ludwig
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > On Fri 10/30/09 16:51 , "ozmodiusnc" ozmodiusnc@... sent:
          >
          >
          > Greetings all,
          >
          > Ive been lurking here for a bit, so I guess I should introduce myself...
          > Michelangelo Giacomo Mastrogiovanni here from Barony Hawkwood in Atlantia. I am new to vinting, and just started my first batch of mead yesterday. I made and used a yeast starter that was similar in sg as my must, so after only an hour or so, it started fermenting like gangbusters. This is my question: Do I need to, and if so, how often, stir/agitate the must during the primary fermentation?
          >
          > Thanks in advance,
          >
          > YIS
          > Michelangelo
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
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          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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          >
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          >
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        • Bob Davis
          ... Let me state from the outset I don t know beans about wine. But I flatter myself I know a thing or two about brewing. Leave it alone is a good rule of
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 2, 2009
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            Cranium@... wrote:
            > Jeff,
            >
            > I am interested in what sources your information is from; is it from
            > Brewing or Vinting books? The reason I ask is not to be
            > argumentative, but my background is almost exclusively brewing and
            > all my books and education say the opposite (once the wort has been
            > oxigeonated and fermentation is started, leave it alone until you
            > rack). My understanding of Vinting (with hardly any education, just
            > from talking with vinters and comparing methods) is that there are
            > reasons to agitate the must; to rouse the yeast, as it likes to
            > flocculate out and can stall fermentation, and for reds to maximize
            > contact with the skins.

            Let me state from the outset I don't know beans about wine. But I
            flatter myself I know a thing or two about brewing.

            "Leave it alone" is a good rule of thumb. However, like all rules,
            there are exceptions. Most beer-yeast strains are perfectly happy to be
            pitched and left to do their thing. Some are not so simple to work
            with; some exceptionally flocculent strains often need to be coaxed to
            completion through rousing. Ringwood springs to mind.

            There are many methods of rousing. Since I deal primarily with
            traditional English "open" fermentation, a sanitized paddle gently
            swirling the beer (being careful to gently scrape the flocculate from
            the floor of the vessel) is standard. Rousing can also be accomplished
            in a conical, through the introduction of CO2 through the valve at the
            apex of the cone. Gently rocking a carboy back and forth will also suffice.

            > My understanding from training and personal experience is that the
            > yeast should only have O2 at the start of the fermentation.
            > Dr White has done some personal research about dissolved O2 and
            > homebrewing, as there has been controversy about too much O2 damaging
            > the yeast (which it definitely can), and found that anything short of
            > dissolving the O2 into the wort under pressure cant generate those
            > levels.

            Yeast should only be exposed to O2 at the start, yes. As Dr White
            notes, it's almost impossible to introduce enough oxygen to damage
            brewer's yeast - recent research has shown introducing more than 9-10ppm
            is highly unlikely using standard brewery equipment - and it's really,
            really hard to introduce damaging levels of O2 thereafter using standard
            brewing methodology.

            If you dribble your green beer from one vessel to another, or pump it
            under pressure so it shoots out like a garden hose, you can introduce
            excess O2, which will set up the development of staling-flavor
            precursors. Even then, given sufficient time - and a fresh dosing of
            bottle-conditioning yeast - those precursors can be reduced during
            conditioning.

            Nevertheless, gentle rousing will not develop staling precursors,
            especially if the wort/must is still under krauesen.

            That said, rousing need not be a standard part of brewery procedure.
            Careful note of gravity over time should be kept and the beer should be
            roused at appropriate times. Once the yeast has reached what looks like
            terminal gravity, ain't no amount of rousing gonna help; you have to
            rouse when the ferment starts to prematurely slow, but *before* it
            stops. Use your hydrometer to plot the ferment. If it looks like it's
            going to stop short of where you think it will end, rouse it. If it
            stops short, if you fail to catch it in time, rouse it anyway. You
            never know if it'll tick off another few degrees Plato.

            Yeast is a living organism which speaks in a language we don't
            understand. Brewing science only goes so far. =)

            Regards,

            Bob

            SCA: Robert Fairfax (East)
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