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need to ask a stupid question

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  • Leah Thornton
    Is it better to use juice concentrate or not My Lord and I want to use blackberries and June berries for a wine and were just wondering if it would be better
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 3, 2009
      Is it better to use juice concentrate or not
      My Lord and I want to use blackberries and June berries for a wine and
      were just wondering if it would be better not use a concentrate or to
      use a contrate
      Lady Magdalen verch Madoch
      Kingdom of Northshield
      Shire of Schattentor
    • leaking pen
      a concentrate is going to have perservatives and such, most likely, as well as a different ph. I prefer to use straight juice when I can, but you can
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 3, 2009
        a concentrate is going to have perservatives and such, most likely, as
        well as a different ph. I prefer to use straight juice when I can,
        but you can certainly use concentrate, just make sure of extras
        involved with it.

        On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Leah Thornton <magdelen69@...> wrote:
        > Is it better to use juice concentrate or not
        > My Lord and I want to use blackberries and June berries for a wine and
        > were just wondering if it would be better not use a concentrate or to
        > use a contrate
        > Lady Magdalen verch Madoch
        > Kingdom of Northshield
        > Shire of Schattentor
        >
        >
      • bill rizzo
        Just use caution, look to see if it has 1. preservatives 2. added sugar. In service, Angino I dont do what I do to try to change the world. I do what I do so
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 3, 2009
          Just use caution, look to see if it has 1. preservatives 2. added sugar.

          In service,
          Angino

          I dont do what I do to try to change the world. I do what I do so the world won't change me.

          --- On Sat, 1/3/09, Leah Thornton <magdelen69@...> wrote:

          From: Leah Thornton <magdelen69@...>
          Subject: [SCA_Brew] need to ask a stupid question
          To: sca_brew@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 12:10 PM

          Is it better to use juice concentrate or not
          My Lord and I want to use blackberries and June berries for a wine and
          were just wondering if it would be better not use a concentrate or to
          use a contrate
          Lady Magdalen verch Madoch
          Kingdom of Northshield
          Shire of Schattentor


        • Leah Thornton
          what we want to do is not use a concentrate or a juice but to do it like from scratch the berries and sugar and other stuff Lady Magdalen verch Madoch
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 3, 2009
            what we want to do is not use a concentrate or a juice but to do it
            like from scratch the berries and sugar and other stuff
            Lady Magdalen verch Madoch
          • leaking pen
            if you can, its generally better to make from scratch.
            Message 5 of 15 , Jan 3, 2009
              if you can, its generally better to make from scratch.

              On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 1:44 PM, Leah Thornton <magdelen69@...> wrote:
              > what we want to do is not use a concentrate or a juice but to do it
              > like from scratch the berries and sugar and other stuff
              > Lady Magdalen verch Madoch
              >
              >
            • Leah Clark
              is there a good recipe for it or can I use any  and modify it for the berries   ________________________________ From: leaking pen To:
              Message 6 of 15 , Jan 3, 2009
                is there a good recipe for it or can I use any  and modify it for the berries

                 


                From: leaking pen <itsatrap@...>
                To: sca_brew@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, January 3, 2009 2:14:46 PM
                Subject: Re: [SCA_Brew] Re: need to ask a stupid question

                if you can, its generally better to make from scratch.

                On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 1:44 PM, Leah Thornton <magdelen69@yahoo. com> wrote:
                > what we want to do is not use a concentrate or a juice but to do it
                > like from scratch the berries and sugar and other stuff
                > Lady Magdalen verch Madoch
                >
                >


              • Cranium@san.rr.com
                the one thing you need to keep in mind going from scratch is the natural yeasts and bacteria on the fruit. The juice will most lilkely (and concentrate
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 3, 2009
                  the one thing you need to keep in mind going from scratch is the natural yeasts and bacteria on the fruit. The juice will most lilkely (and concentrate definately) be pasturized to kill the naturaly ocuring bugs.

                  ---- Leah Thornton <magdelen69@...> wrote:
                  > what we want to do is not use a concentrate or a juice but to do it
                  > like from scratch the berries and sugar and other stuff
                  > Lady Magdalen verch Madoch
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • THL Isaac MacDaniel
                  Greetings, I vint straight from berries all the time, never have a problem. Berries frozen until I have enough for a batch(grow my own). Boil water to
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jan 4, 2009
                    Greetings,
                    I vint straight from berries all the time, never have a problem.  Berries frozen until I have enough for a batch(grow my own).  Boil water to dissolve sugar and pour over berries, usually kills anything untoward. Start yeast a day or two earlier in oj to give it a good start.  Just be sure about your ph, some berries are more acid than others.
                     
                    For example black berries are very acid and take awhile to vint into something drinkable.  Blue berries on the other hand are much more bland and without acid added make a bland wine.  BUT the two together make something great and fast.
                     
                    Ya'll come to Gulf Wars.  The Inter-Kingdom Brewers Guild will be hosting a competition there again this year.
                     
                     
                    Happy brewing,
                    Jane Beaumont
                    Gleann Abhann
                  • sorchaprechan
                    I ve had reasonable results using frozen fruit. The freezing seems to reduce the number of wild yeasts (can anyone confirm that?), and you can get organic
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jan 4, 2009
                      I've had reasonable results using frozen fruit. The freezing seems to
                      reduce the number of wild yeasts (can anyone confirm that?), and you
                      can get organic fruit if you want to. That's assuming it's out of
                      season like it is here and you can't get your hands on fresh...

                      Cheers,
                      Sorcha Prechan

                      > what we want to do is not use a concentrate or a juice but to do it
                      > like from scratch the berries and sugar and other stuff
                      > Lady Magdalen verch Madoch
                      >
                    • chirurgeondouglas
                      Greetings to a Southern Nieghbour from the frozen marches of the Kingdom! Will this be a grape wine with berries added, or a straight berry wine? Several
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jan 4, 2009
                        Greetings to a Southern Nieghbour from the frozen marches of the Kingdom!

                        Will this be a grape wine with berries added, or a straight berry wine?

                        Several things about about using fresh berries in a wine or mead
                        (melomel);

                        It takes A LOT of fresh berries to get a gallon of juice, and the
                        sugar content of fresh/frozen berries (5-6% by wieght) is low enough
                        that you will need to add sugar to get a viable alcohol content,
                        unless you are adding them to grape or other juice that has sufficient
                        sugars.

                        Blackberries & raspberries are a low ph (very acidic) and are
                        generally fairly inhospitable to wild yeasts. If you're going to use
                        frozen berries then I wouldnt worry about wild yeasts much. If you
                        are going to use fresh berries (and I wish I had that much money this
                        time of years to afford fresh!!!) it's a good idea to soak-n-sulfite
                        fresh berries overnight before using.

                        Commercial juice is ok as long as there is no Sodium Benozate,
                        Potassium Sorbate ("Sorbic Acid" or "Contains Sorbates"). Ascorbic
                        acid (an anti-oxident), and Citric acid (controls tartness) in the
                        ingrediants are OK as they wont inhibit fermentation.

                        If Potassium Sulfite/Metabisulfite or "Contains Sulfites" are in the
                        ingrediants it may be a rough start to fermentation unless the juice
                        is left out overnight after mixing vigourously.

                        "Organic" labelled juices/concentrates are the best bet as they have
                        no preservatives added.

                        Here is one receipe I was given (not my own!) for Blackberry wine.
                        You can replace Blackberries w Raspeberries without any changes.

                        =========================
                        BLACKBERRY WINE (6 US Gal) [Medium Bodied Dry]

                        * 20lb. blackberries (fully ripe, best quality berries if avail)
                        * 10lb. granulated sugar
                        * 3 tsp. pectic enzyme
                        * 2 tsp. acid blend
                        * 5 crushed Campden tablets, or equiv in Potasium Metabisulfate.
                        * 4.25 US gallons water
                        * 1 pkg wine yeast (Lavlin 71B recommended)
                        * 5 tsp yeast nutrient (DAP- Diammonium Phospahate)

                        - Boil 4.25 US gallons of water (Do NOT use Distilled water!!!!)
                        - Pour water into primary fermenter with sugar, and stir vigourously
                        until completely dissolved.
                        - If using fresh berries wash thoroughly and place in nylon brewers
                        strainer-bag.
                        - If using frozen berries (Costco?), then thaw first, and add to the
                        strainer-bag.
                        - Mash and squeeze out all juice into primary fermentation vessel.
                        - Add crushed Capmden tablets (or equiv amt of Potassium
                        Metabiusufite) to the must, and stir vigourously for 1 minute.
                        - Add 5 tsp Yeast Nutrient (DAP)
                        - Tie strainer-bag and place in primary fermentation vessel with all
                        ingredients except yeast. Give a good stir, cover fermentor, and set
                        aside overnight in a warm (75 F.) area.

                        The next day place the strainer bag in a colander, and squeeze well,
                        but dont add back to the bucket yet...

                        Stir vigourously for 2-3 minutes to aerate the must, place the
                        strainer-bag of berries back in the fermentor, and dunk it well.

                        Follow the directions on the wine yeast pakage to rehydrate the yeast,
                        and the pour into the fermentor, giving it a gentle stir, cover, and
                        begin two weeks primary fermentation.

                        Leave it alone for 24hrs (overnight) after pitching the yeast, and
                        then stir vigourously for 1 min. twice a day for the next three days,
                        and on days 4-6 stirring gently for 15 seconds twice a day, making
                        sure to dunk the strainer-bag well.

                        For the next week just dunk the strainer-bag of berries gently under
                        the surface without stirring the must.

                        14 days after pitching the yeast, gently remove the strainer-bag from
                        the fermentor and strain juice from the bag. After this siphon the
                        wine off the sediment into your secondary fermentation vessel adding
                        enough water to bring the level to shoulder, and fit with an airlock.

                        Place in cool (65 degrees F.) dark place for three weeks. Rack off
                        sediment, allow another two months to finish, then rack again.

                        Add 1 tsp Potasium Metabisulfate (or equiv in crushed campden tablets)
                        let sit overnight, and then and bottle in dark glass. Allow 6 months
                        to a year ageing to mature.
                        ===========================

                        I'm going to try this recipe in the spring!
                        For now I have grape wine going and some mead...

                        Yours in Service,

                        Ld. Douglas of Yorke
                        Kingdom of Northshield
                        Barony of Castel Rouge


                        --- In sca_brew@yahoogroups.com, "Leah Thornton" <magdelen69@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Is it better to use juice concentrate or not
                        > My Lord and I want to use blackberries and June berries for a wine and
                        > were just wondering if it would be better not use a concentrate or to
                        > use a contrate
                        > Lady Magdalen verch Madoch
                        > Kingdom of Northshield
                        > Shire of Schattentor
                        >
                      • Leah Thornton
                        What we want to do is a blackberry and June berry wine strickly berries? I was wondering if there is a recipe out there for that or can I substute berries for
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jan 4, 2009
                          What we want to do is a blackberry and June berry wine strickly berries?
                          I was wondering if there is a recipe out there for that or can I
                          substute berries for something else but I am going to check web for
                          some recipes if anyone knows of any let me know
                          Lady Magdalen verch Madoch
                          Shire of Schattentor
                          Kingdom of Norhtshield
                        • leaking pen
                          freezing should definately reduce the wild yeast. Also, i seem to recall that most frost proof yeasts are going to be top fermenters, like sherry yeasts. As
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jan 4, 2009
                            freezing should definately reduce the wild yeast. Also, i seem to
                            recall that most frost proof yeasts are going to be top fermenters,
                            like sherry yeasts.

                            As for organic, wash it well, becuase A. you're going to have more
                            wild yeasts and other bugs, and B. the antimold agents commonly used
                            that qualify as organic (especially copper acetate and its relatives)
                            will play HAVOC with your domesticated yeasts.

                            On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 4:15 PM, sorchaprechan <ebpayne@...> wrote:
                            > I've had reasonable results using frozen fruit. The freezing seems to
                            > reduce the number of wild yeasts (can anyone confirm that?), and you
                            > can get organic fruit if you want to. That's assuming it's out of
                            > season like it is here and you can't get your hands on fresh...
                            >
                            > Cheers,
                            > Sorcha Prechan
                            >
                            >> what we want to do is not use a concentrate or a juice but to do it
                            >> like from scratch the berries and sugar and other stuff
                            >> Lady Magdalen verch Madoch
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                          • Eadric Anstapa
                            Freezing will slow there wild yeast and other bugs down but it wont kill em all. Enough will make it through a freeze thaw process that if just left on their
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jan 4, 2009
                              Freezing will slow there wild yeast and other bugs down but it wont kill em all.  Enough will make it through a freeze thaw process that if just left on their own for long enough in a favorable must they would ferment.  However I don't ever worry about wild yeasts.  Heck, some the best ciders I have ever had have been fermented entirely with the  wild yeasts on the fruit.  I just press all the fruit, or pulp it and get it into the fermenter and pitch a big healthy starter of the yeast that I want.  The healthy active starter that I want quickly overcomes the wild yeast and I have never had a problem with wild yeast.

                              I never try to boil to pasteurize or pour boiling water over my fruit.  I don't want to make jelly.  The heat can cause the pectins in the fruit to set and can cause the wine to be slow to clear or never really clear at all and retain a pectin haze to it.  Additionally boiling drives off subtle aromatics.  Again, such pasteurization isn't needed.  Just rinse the fresh fruit to get dirt and dust off and pitch a healthy active starter.

                              I have found that freezing seems to be beneficial.  It breaks down the the cells in the fruit, makes em mushy and they pulp easier and seem to release more fruit character.

                              I never add granulated sugar to fruit wines as it simply adds alcohol or sweetness without contributing any other flavor or aroma.  If I add sugars I usually find a local raw honey that complements the fruit and I wind up with what I would call a Melomel (but you can call it a Fruit Wine if ya want). 

                              Alternately,  I might add an Extra Pale Malt Extract or a Wheat Malt Extract and make a fruit beer (if I don't want tot take the time to do an all grain batch).   For you folks out there who are primarily Vintners (or meadmakers) remember that working with a Malt extract  is no different than working with a honey or other sugar or other sugar or syrup and you don't need any special equipment other than a bolts to dissolve it in.

                              When working with honey's and fruit/juices with a low pH remember it can be beneficial  to buffer your water.

                              Also remember that just because you are fermenting fruit that doesn't mean you have to shoot for a product 8%+ alcohol.  Lither, less alcoholic drinks can be very nice.  In fact I find that many fruits and honeys have their subtle tastes and aromas overwhelmed in higher alcohol beverages and if I want something with subtle aromatics and slightly sweet I will often use an Ale yeast.

                              Finally, to the original question... Don't be afraid to use concentrates is thats what ya can get.  As others have said be careful of the ones that have preservatives and lots of added sugars.  Those added sugars are just going to add sweet and alcohol without contributing anything to the actual taste or aroma of the product.  Concentrates are kinda nice in that you can use then to boost the sugar content of your wine.  Just don't cut them with as much water as you would if you were going to drink them.  Get out the mixing bowl, test jar, and hydrometer and mix in measured water a little at a time until ya have the starting gravity ya want.

                              Remember you can buy fruit purees, concentrates, and wine bases from good homebrew suppliers so you don't have to simply rely on what you can get at the local grocer.
                              http://www.austinhomebrew.com/index.php?cPath=178_24_22

                              Remember also that for many fruits the addition of pectic enzyme can help you get more fruitiness out of the fruit as it helps to break down the cell walls and increases juice yield and serves to prevent pectin haze.

                              Regards,

                              -EA

                              sorchaprechan wrote:
                              I've had reasonable results using frozen fruit.  The freezing seems to 
                              reduce the number of wild yeasts (can anyone confirm that?), and you 
                              can get organic fruit if you want to.  That's assuming it's out of 
                              season like it is here and you can't get your hands on fresh...
                              
                              Cheers,
                              Sorcha Prechan
                              
                                
                              what we want to do is not use a concentrate or a juice but to do it 
                              like from scratch the berries and sugar and other stuff
                              Lady Magdalen verch Madoch
                              
                                  
                                

                            • Carraig Mac Cosgraigh
                              I am primarily a meadmaker, and I have used fresh fruit, frozen fruit, fruit wine base from brew shops, and plain old fruit juice from the store (there s lots
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jan 5, 2009
                                I am primarily a meadmaker, and I have used fresh fruit, frozen fruit, fruit wine base from brew shops, and plain old fruit juice from the store (there's lots of stuff with no added preservatives).  You can get some really high quality juice by going to a health food store or the health food section of some grocery stores (like Hy Vee in Iowa).
                                 
                                Most berries (fresh or frozen), yield about half their weight in juice.  So 16 lbs of berries gives about 8 lbs of juice which is roughly 1 gallon.  You can get 4 quarts of Knudsens Just Juice 100% blueberry juice for about $8 a quart ($32 per gallon).  Fresh berries in season are well over $32 for 16 lbs, and frozen berries are about $2 a pound ($32 for 16 lbs of berries).
                                 
                                Overall, it's cheaper and more convenient to use juices to make mead/wine.  However, you get far more nuance in the product when you use whole berries.  There is room enough in the world for both approaches.  Depends upon what your goal is for any given batch of product.
                                 
                                Best Regards,
                                Carraig
                                 


                                --- On Sat, 1/3/09, Leah Thornton <magdelen69@...> wrote:
                                From: Leah Thornton <magdelen69@...>
                                Subject: [SCA_Brew] need to ask a stupid question
                                To: sca_brew@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 2:10 PM

                                Is it better to use juice concentrate or not
                                My Lord and I want to use blackberries and June berries for a wine and
                                were just wondering if it would be better not use a concentrate or to
                                use a contrate
                                Lady Magdalen verch Madoch
                                Kingdom of Northshield
                                Shire of Schattentor


                              • caleb@buffnet.net
                                I have used frozen, concentrated fruit juices in my brews. Just make sure that whatever brand you use contains only fruit juice: you don t want preservatives,
                                Message 15 of 15 , Jan 5, 2009
                                  I have used frozen, concentrated fruit juices in my brews. Just make sure
                                  that whatever brand you use contains only fruit juice: you don't want
                                  preservatives, artificial flavors or high fructose corn syrup. When I make
                                  orange mead for myself (and I'm lazy), I throw in one can of frozen orange
                                  juice concentrate for every two gallons of water. This give me a pleasant
                                  orange flavor without having to adjust the water content.

                                  My Mom also got me hooked on pure cherry juice. You can find it in heath
                                  food stores. It's 100% cherry juice with nothing added to the bottle. It
                                  is $1.50 or $1.75 for a half of a pint, but it doesn't taste like cherry
                                  flavored candy.

                                  If you are in doubt as to what would taste good, make some small batches
                                  and use different concentrates and see what works.

                                  Caleb Reynolds
                                  9th Baron of the Rhydderich Hael
                                  from Work Land

                                  Carraig Mac Cosgraigh said:
                                  > I am primarily a meadmaker, and I have used fresh fruit, frozen fruit,
                                  > fruit wine base from brew shops, and plain old fruit juice from the
                                  > store (there's lots of stuff with no added preservatives).  You can get
                                  > some really high quality juice by going to a health food store or the
                                  > health food section of some grocery stores (like Hy Vee in Iowa).  
                                  > Most berries (fresh or frozen), yield about half their weight in juice. 
                                  > So 16 lbs of berries gives about 8 lbs of juice which is roughly 1
                                  > gallon.  You can get 4 quarts of Knudsens Just Juice 100% blueberry
                                  > juice for about $8 a quart ($32 per gallon).  Fresh berries in season
                                  > are well over $32 for 16 lbs, and frozen berries are about $2 a pound
                                  > ($32 for 16 lbs of berries).  
                                  > Overall, it's cheaper and more convenient to use juices to make
                                  > mead/wine.  However, you get far more nuance in the product when you use
                                  > whole berries.  There is room enough in the world for both approaches. 
                                  > Depends upon what your goal is for any given batch of product.  
                                  > Best Regards,
                                  > Carraig
                                  >  
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- On Sat, 1/3/09, Leah Thornton <magdelen69@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > From: Leah Thornton <magdelen69@...>
                                  > Subject: [SCA_Brew] need to ask a stupid question
                                  > To: sca_brew@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 2:10 PM
                                  >
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                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Is it better to use juice concentrate or not
                                  > My Lord and I want to use blackberries and June berries for a wine and
                                  > were just wondering if it would be better not use a concentrate or to
                                  > use a contrate
                                  > Lady Magdalen verch Madoch
                                  > Kingdom of Northshield
                                  > Shire of Schattentor
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