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[SCA-JML] Re: Post period

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  • Jordan Malokofsky
    ... Makes sense to me. The SCA recreates the European middle ages and happens to define that as pre-1600 (which fits). Seeing as how several groups of people
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 5, 1999
      shubnigurath@... wrote:
      > To that end I would say that, anathema though it may be to many
      > good gentles (yeah, yeah- I know how you feel about this one, Baron
      > Master Edward-tono), that the 1600 doesn't apply as well to Japan as it
      > does to European cultures, since the Japanese fuedal period ended only
      > in 1860ish. I would propose a more fluid standard in keeping with the
      > purpose of the SCA, rather than trying to impose hard-and-fast rules.
      > In other words, cut off Japan just before the Meiji restoration, but
      > cut off Europe at 1600, and apply other dates to other cultures as
      > appropriate. Oh, and ixnay on the american colonist thing.

      Makes sense to me. The SCA recreates the European middle ages and
      happens to define that as pre-1600 (which fits). Seeing as how
      several groups of people within the SCA do non-European personae,
      different time periods should be acceptable. We don't do European, so
      why should we limit our time period according to it?
      I am, unfortunately, not that familiar with the history of the Edo
      period, but from all I've heard it could be considered within period
      for Japanese personae. However, I don't think you'll get any kind of
      official acknowledgement for this idea. It would be too complicated
      to have to keep track of for all the different cultures. I'd just
      quitely do things "post-period" that were still relevant to medieval
      recreation and not use any of it in documentation cases (such as A&S
      competitions).
      There may be some people who will draw the line at 1600 reguardless,
      but I agree that, going with the spirit of medieval recreation, it
      should be OK to use pre-Meiji history as "period" for Japanese
      personae.


      ****************************************
      Subete no kisoku ni reigai ari.
      <There is an exception to every rule.>
      ****************************************

      Jordan Malokofsky - Mundane
      Tatsuki Akira - SCA
      Sir Pip - Cyberspace Avatar
      http://www.malokofsky.ann-arbor.mi.us
    • Joshua Badgley
      The problem with moving the SCA cut-off date for non-European personae(?) is that, according to SCA guidelines, any non-European is said to be visiting, and
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 5, 1999
        The problem with moving the SCA cut-off date for non-European
        personae(?) is that, according to SCA guidelines, any non-European is said
        to be 'visiting,' and so must still conform to the 1600 date.

        If, however, a subset of people from the SCA decide that they also want to
        recreate a period outside the strict guidelines, there is nothing to
        prevent that. If you and your friends want to recreate Edo Japan, go
        right ahead. However, they would not have been visiting European courts,
        and so are not appropriate for a strict SCA event.

        As to Edo: The Edo period started with the Tokugawa Shogunate, when
        Hideyoshi Toyotomi died and Ieyasu Tokugawa became Shogun, which all
        happened at the turn of the century. As such, all of the Edo period is
        post-1600 (and then ends in 1868, with the Meiji, or 'Enlightened' Era).

        Please correct any mistakes I have made; it is late and I fear my mind
        might be slipping.


        -Godric Logan
      • akimoya
        ... Personally, I ve never really agreed with the 1600 cut off date - I ve always thought that it should be *earlier*, not later. It has always been my
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 5, 1999
          On Thu, 4 Nov 1999 shubnigurath@... wrote:

          > To that end I would say that, anathema though it may be to many
          > good gentles (yeah, yeah- I know how you feel about this one, Baron
          > Master Edward-tono), that the 1600 doesn't apply as well to Japan as it
          > does to European cultures, since the Japanese fuedal period ended only
          > in 1860ish. I would propose a more fluid standard in keeping with the
          > purpose of the SCA, rather than trying to impose hard-and-fast rules.
          > In other words, cut off Japan just before the Meiji restoration, but
          > cut off Europe at 1600, and apply other dates to other cultures as
          > appropriate. Oh, and ixnay on the american colonist thing.

          Personally, I've never really agreed with the 1600 cut off date - I've
          always thought that it should be *earlier*, not later. It has always been
          my opinion that the SCA should be recreating the Middle Ages only, not the
          Renaissance as well. This might mean different cut off dates for
          different countries, as the rationale for the 1600 cut off is that the
          Renassaince took over a hundred years to spread from Italy to England.

          As for the extending the time frime to encompass the Edo period, I'd
          hardly call it "feudal" or "medieval". It was essentially a dictatorship,
          with almost every action carved in stone. No medieval European King that
          I can think of had so much control over his subjects, or any dynasty that
          lasted so long, with so much power. I would say 1600 is the perfect time
          to cut off Japanese personae - if they would be allowed to play in the SCA
          at all.

          Akimoya
          Ealdormere
        • Anthony J. Bryant
          ... The SCA is, by her charter, an organization geared towards the Western Middle Ages. By all acounts, by 1600, the Middle Ages were over. As was a big chunk
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 5, 1999
            shubnigurath@... wrote:

            > What, exactly, is the purpose of the 1600 cut off date in the SCA?

            The SCA is, by her charter, an organization geared towards the Western
            Middle Ages. By all acounts, by 1600, the Middle Ages were over. As was a
            big chunk even of the renaissance. If you want to do the middle ages, a
            1450s cutoff would make more sense.

            >
            > I would submit that 1600 is roughly the end of the age of chivalry (if
            > you could call it that...). Since there had to be a cut off somewhere,
            > that was as good as any. The careful observer will note that the
            > americas had been colonized by this time, yet it is generally not
            > accepted to go as a very early American colonist, because that falls
            > somewhat out of the scope of what the SCA is trying to do, which is, in
            > effect, to recreate a fuedal (rather than colonial) period.
            > To that end I would say that, anathema though it may be to many
            > good gentles (yeah, yeah- I know how you feel about this one, Baron
            > Master Edward-tono), that the 1600 doesn't apply as well to Japan as it
            > does to European cultures, since the Japanese fuedal period ended only
            > in 1860ish. I would propose a more fluid standard in keeping with the
            > purpose of the SCA, rather than trying to impose hard-and-fast rules.
            > In other words, cut off Japan just before the Meiji restoration, but
            > cut off Europe at 1600, and apply other dates to other cultures as
            > appropriate. Oh, and ixnay on the american colonist thing.

            Actually, the 1600 date makes more sense with us that the Europeans. THere
            is a solid reason, a single event, for a 1600 cutoff, while there is
            nothing in Europe beyond 1600 being a nice, fat, round number.

            In Japan, we have the Battle of Sekigahara in October, in which the old
            regime is ousted and the Tokugawa hegemony secured. The Tokugawa government
            created a japan that had very little in common with the Japan of only a few
            decades earlier. They created a solid, centralized federal state. One
            professor described it rather oxymoronically as a "centralized, feudal
            state."

            Just because the Edo Period was not "modernized" in the western sense, it
            wasn't medieval. Even the Japanese historians refer to it as the "Recent
            Period" (kinsei) -- they count the medieval period (chuusei) as 1181-1600.

            > I'm sure that this will arouse the ire of many of the members of
            > this group. I welcome any discourse on this topic. If you feel the
            > need to flame me, my e-mail is shubnigurath@....

            Nah, no need for flame. I'll just make your armour so that it pinches in a
            bad place when you sit. <G>

            Effingham
          • Anthony J. Bryant
            ... Because that s not the SCA game. If you want to recreate Edo Japan, we can always start a new group, but the SCA is geared at Medieval Europe. We re
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 5, 1999
              Jordan Malokofsky wrote:

              > Makes sense to me. The SCA recreates the European middle ages and
              > happens to define that as pre-1600 (which fits). Seeing as how
              > several groups of people within the SCA do non-European personae,
              > different time periods should be acceptable. We don't do European, so
              > why should we limit our time period according to it?

              Because that's not the SCA game. If you want to recreate Edo Japan, we can
              always start a new group, but the SCA is geared at Medieval Europe. We're
              visitors, we don't control the game. It's the height of rudeness to be a
              guest in someone's house and then tell them how they should behave.

              > I am, unfortunately, not that familiar with the history of the Edo
              > period, but from all I've heard it could be considered within period
              > for Japanese personae.

              Depends on how you define period for Jp personae. Period for the SCA is a
              definite cutoff at 1600, so that makes it academic. If, OTOH, you mean
              feudal, yes, it's feudal, but the Japanese society and government of 1500
              and 1700 were very different. The clothing was different, the mores were
              different, the economy was different, the social scene was different, the
              military was different..

              No, Japan after 1600 was a different world. Don't confuse "not
              westerized/democratized" with "medieval."

              > However, I don't think you'll get any kind of
              > official acknowledgement for this idea. It would be too complicated
              > to have to keep track of for all the different cultures. I'd just
              > quitely do things "post-period" that were still relevant to medieval
              > recreation and not use any of it in documentation cases (such as A&S
              > competitions).

              Sorry, to my mind, that's cheating. You're going behind the back of the
              rules. I do not do post period whenever I can help it, and I don't suborn
              it, either.

              > There may be some people who will draw the line at 1600 reguardless,
              > but I agree that, going with the spirit of medieval recreation, it
              > should be OK to use pre-Meiji history as "period" for Japanese
              > personae.

              Not in the SCA it isn't.


              Effingham
            • Barbara Nostrand
              Noble Cousins! ... Which Japanese history books have you been reading? Most Japanese history books have the Japanese middle ages ending either with Hideyoshi
              Message 6 of 7 , Nov 5, 1999
                Noble Cousins!

                >> To that end I would say that, anathema though it may be to many
                >> good gentles (yeah, yeah- I know how you feel about this one, Baron
                >> Master Edward-tono), that the 1600 doesn't apply as well to Japan as it
                >> does to European cultures, since the Japanese fuedal period ended only
                >> in 1860ish.

                Which Japanese history books have you been reading? Most Japanese
                history books have the Japanese middle ages ending either with
                Hideyoshi unifying Japan or in GASP at about 1600. The battle
                of Sekigahara occured in 1600 and there were the two battles of
                Osaka Castle. The Genroku period (if I recall my era names
                correctly) is generally considered to be post medieval.

                >>I would propose a more fluid standard in keeping with the
                >> purpose of the SCA, rather than trying to impose hard-and-fast rules.
                >> In other words, cut off Japan just before the Meiji restoration, but
                >> cut off Europe at 1600, and apply other dates to other cultures as
                >> appropriate. Oh, and ixnay on the american colonist thing.

                Why? This distinction does not make sense for EUROPE! The Spanish
                practiced patronage with gold mined from placer mines in the New
                World. The Spanish remained arguably medieval for quite some time
                and (as I recall) the Russians only freed their serfs in the
                19th century. Some argue that Spanish redistribution of American
                gold brought about the enclosure act and the forced urbanization
                of England and the conversion of the English economy to an
                industrial economy. This sort of thing was not at all universal
                throughout Europe.

                In short. We can make a BETTER case for the middle ages ending in
                Japan at 1600 than can for Europe.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

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