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My Mon

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  • Jason Silver
    Greetings all Well I just posted a picture of my mon.. Please note that the email that said the file was posted has the wrong file name. If you look under
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 15, 2003
      Greetings all

      Well I just posted a picture of my mon.. Please note that the email
      that said the file was posted has the wrong file name. If you look
      under files, look for the folder for Mon's and then it is in there as
      TISYmon.bmp

      For those that understand hearldry and such, can you please take a
      look at it and let me know if I am going to have a hard time getting
      it passed or do I need to do more work on it..

      Also I would love some feed back on how people feel it looks for
      being a period style mon..

      Domo
      Takeda Imakawa Shirou Yoshitaka (removed the no until I understand
      Solviegs email about names LOL)
    • Donald J. Luby
      ... I asked my kingdom submissions heralds to take a look it, and the opinion of they and their staff is they are unsure whether it would pass; given their
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 15, 2003
        On Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 04:11 PM, Jason Silver wrote:

        > Greetings all
        >
        > Well I just posted a picture of my mon.. Please note that the email
        > that said the file was posted has the wrong file name. If you look
        > under files, look for the folder for Mon's and then it is in there as
        > TISYmon.bmp
        >
        > For those that understand hearldry and such, can you please take a
        > look at it and let me know if I am going to have a hard time getting
        > it passed or do I need to do more work on it..

        I asked my kingdom submissions heralds to take a look it, and the
        opinion of they and their staff is they are unsure whether it would
        pass; given their general experience, plus their past experience with
        mon, I would probably classify its chances as "possible, but doubtful",
        and given that it takes on the order of a year to get a final "yes",
        you're probably better served, in the end, submitting something with a
        better chance. The blazon they came up with (which even among their
        staff they couldn't agree on) was "Sable, in pale a fan Or charged with
        a torteau and three roundels in chevron inverted all within a orle Or";
        FYI, a torteau is a specifically *red* roundel.

        > Also I would love some feed back on how people feel it looks for being
        > a period style mon..

        While both roundels (dots) and fans, even fans with simple charges on
        them, as are having either within a orle, are perfectly fine, I cannot
        find any instance of having two completely disparate charges like those
        on a given mon. I also cannot find any instances of sets of three
        charges being "two and one" (herald-ese for "two on top, one on
        bottom") - they all seem to be "one and two", except for "tall" charges
        which can be three horizontal ("in fess") and "short/squat" which can
        be three vertical ("in pale"). And, given that mon tend to be, in
        general, light on dark / dark on light, and restrict themselves to two
        tinctures, having a red dot on an otherwise black & gold mon strikes me
        as odd also.

        So, given all that, there are several sets of suggestions I would make
        to you, for both increased chances of it passing, and making it a more
        period style:

        1. drop either the roundels or the fan

        2. if you keep the fan, either change it to having a red background, or
        the roundel on the fan black - either way, have the roundel match the
        background. Also, since the charge of 'a red roundel on a gold fan' is
        fairly well-known historically, you may want to have multiple of them
        in some configuration (three "one and two", three "in annulo" (forming
        a circle, with either all the 'heads' or all the 'tails' in the
        center), two on top of each other "in pale", &c)

        3. if you keep the roundels, you should either 'flip' it to "one and
        two" and/or add more of them, always maintaining bilateral vertical
        symmetry (i.e. left/right mirror image), and no fewer on the top half
        than on the bottom.

        > Domo
        > Takeda Imakawa Shirou Yoshitaka (removed the no until I understand
        > Solviegs email about names LOL)




        Sir Koredono

        ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        -------
        Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
        Koredono, KSCA
        djl@...
        Yama-kaminari-ryu
        Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands,
        AEthelmearc
      • Solveig
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solvieg! What is the URL? I read the blazon quoted by Koredono Busho. What kind of fan are you using: a solid fan or a folding
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 17, 2003
          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solvieg! What is the URL? I read the blazon quoted by
          Koredono Busho. What kind of fan are you using: a solid fan or a
          folding fan?

          Of the folding variety. The decoration which is clearly Japanese
          is a single roundel. For the non-folding war fan, there is a kamon
          with two columns of three pine trees. In blazon, that would probably
          just be a seme of pine trees.

          I do not recommend making the roundels different colours. This
          breaks up the unity of the design.

          If you like reoundels, then you can put them in a number of interesteing
          arrangments as long as they present a unified design. For example, you can
          arrange roundels in a square, a rectangle, or in a circle surrounding a
          central roundel. As fordecorated fans. The only fan decoration which I am
          familiar with is slogans written in kanji. The CoA will have a fit
          if you submit a fan with kanji on it. Even if they do not throw a fit,
          they will not count difference based on the content of the slogan.

          Now then. There are fans which are used in battle that have a single
          roundel on them. Those are another matter.

          Ref. Kamon Kakei Jiten by Yoshida Taiyou (1979).
          --

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
          | the trash by my email filters. |
          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
        • Jason Silver
          Greetings Solvieg! Here is the address to the file, then just click on the mon in the folder.. It is a folding style fan.. One thing, if I remember correctly,
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 17, 2003
            Greetings Solvieg!

            Here is the address to the file, then just click on the mon in the
            folder.. It is a folding style fan..

            One thing, if I remember correctly, some time ago when talking to a
            friend of mine who at that time was a local hearld, he said that if I
            submit the mon I should submit it in black and white, as such I can
            say " artists creativity " for the colors if it ever comes up.. But
            as long as the general design is there..

            Now, does colors fit into Japanese styled Mon is the big question? I
            think so.. I am sure that I have seen a picture of a mon very similar
            ( gold circle, gold fan with red rondel on the fan on a black back
            ground ), I am sure if I do some diging I should be able to find it..

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/files/Mon/

            Takeda Imakawa Shirou Yoshitaka

            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
            > Noble Cousin!
            >
            > Greetings from Solvieg! What is the URL? I read the blazon quoted by
            > Koredono Busho. What kind of fan are you using: a solid fan or a
            > folding fan?
            >
            > Of the folding variety. The decoration which is clearly Japanese
            > is a single roundel. For the non-folding war fan, there is a kamon
            > with two columns of three pine trees. In blazon, that would probably
            > just be a seme of pine trees.
            >
            > I do not recommend making the roundels different colours. This
            > breaks up the unity of the design.
            >
            > If you like reoundels, then you can put them in a number of
            interesteing
            > arrangments as long as they present a unified design. For example,
            you can
            > arrange roundels in a square, a rectangle, or in a circle
            surrounding a
            > central roundel. As fordecorated fans. The only fan decoration
            which I am
            > familiar with is slogans written in kanji. The CoA will have a fit
            > if you submit a fan with kanji on it. Even if they do not throw a
            fit,
            > they will not count difference based on the content of the slogan.
            >
            > Now then. There are fans which are used in battle that have a single
            > roundel on them. Those are another matter.
            >
            > Ref. Kamon Kakei Jiten by Yoshida Taiyou (1979).
            > --
            >
            > Your Humble Servant
            > Solveig Throndardottir
            > Amateur Scholar
            >
            > +-------------------------------------------------------------------
            ---+
            > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM,
            CoS |
            > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis
            Est |
            > | mailto:nostrand@a... | mailto:bnostran@l... |
            > +-------------------------------------------------------------------
            ---+
            > | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed
            to |
            > | the trash by my email
            filters. |
            > +-------------------------------------------------------------------
            ---+
          • Solveig
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Times have changed. The CoA does not currently register tinctureless badges. The field (background) can be
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 17, 2003
              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              >One thing, if I remember correctly, some time ago when talking to a
              >friend of mine who at that time was a local hearld, he said that if I
              >submit the mon I should submit it in black and white, as such I can
              >say " artists creativity " for the colors if it ever comes up.. But
              >as long as the general design is there..

              Times have changed. The CoA does not currently register tinctureless
              badges. The field (background) can be tinctureless for a badge. This
              allows you to put the badge on anything that you want to, but the
              badge design itself needs to have a tincture. If you make it white
              on the form, then that is what you get, not any other colour.

              >Now, does colors fit into Japanese styled Mon is the big question? I
              >think so.. I am sure that I have seen a picture of a mon very similar
              >( gold circle, gold fan with red rondel on the fan on a black back
              >ground ), I am sure if I do some diging I should be able to find it..

              Putting circles around kamon is pretty modern. There are very few
              examples of this convention before 1600. In 1900, putting circles
              around the outside was common as dirt, but in 1600 they were rare.
              it is much better style to leave the circle off.

              >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/files/Mon/
              >

              Now that I see your proposal I can point out other problems. You
              are having two different kinds of charges: a fan and three roundels.
              That breaks a Japanese style concept of having a single unified
              design. You can for example have an oxcart wheel or a chrysanthemum
              emerge from water or a mountain emerge from clouds as in these cases
              you have a unified design. Another unified design associates a particular
              kind of bird with bamboo as they are conceptually linked. Another thing
              that you can do is repeat the same object multiple times. There are
              several ways of doing this.

              Now for a technical CoA point. I did not understand that your roundels
              were detached from your fan. This makes fieldless impossible. Last I
              heard, the CoA was only allowing fieldless for badges which have a
              single connected charge.

              --

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
              | the trash by my email filters. |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            • Donald J. Luby
              ... No, you don t need to do that; my mon is blazoned white on red, and it went through just fine. I think you d be best off submitting it in the color scheme
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 17, 2003
                On Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 08:02 PM, Jason Silver wrote:

                > Greetings Solvieg!
                >
                > Here is the address to the file, then just click on the mon in the
                > folder.. It is a folding style fan..
                >
                > One thing, if I remember correctly, some time ago when talking to a
                > friend of mine who at that time was a local hearld, he said that if I
                > submit the mon I should submit it in black and white, as such I can
                > say " artists creativity " for the colors if it ever comes up.. But
                > as long as the general design is there..

                No, you don't need to do that; my mon is blazoned white on red, and it
                went through just fine. I think you'd be best off submitting it in the
                color scheme you plan on using most, to avoid conflict issues if you
                submit it black-and-white, and later decide you want to use, say,
                blue-and-gold (yellow) - if that new color scheme causes a conflict
                with someone else's registered heraldry, then you would be in the wrong.

                > Now, does colors fit into Japanese styled Mon is the big question? I
                > think so.. I am sure that I have seen a picture of a mon very similar
                > ( gold circle, gold fan with red rondel on the fan on a black back
                > ground ), I am sure if I do some diging I should be able to find it..

                Ah, that's the period style issue, with several relevant pieces of
                information:

                1. In period, the Japanese did not have what the Europeans would
                consider a 'College of Arms', whose purpose was to design and register
                armory (mon), and avoid heraldic conflicts; from what I've been led to
                believe, you could use pretty much whatever you liked (there are lots
                of instances of daimyo just up and deciding to use some different mon
                than the one their family had carried for generations before), though
                use of some were quite frowned upon (like anything 'reserved' for the
                Imperial family), and using others implied some sort of relationship
                with a major house (Fuji, Hojo, &c). In fact, IIRC, there are quite a
                few instances of multiple daimyo, sometimes cadet branches of the same
                family, sometimes not, using the same, or very similar, mon, at the
                same time.

                2. I have never seen or heard of any mon using anything other than (in
                SCA heraldic terms) two tinctures of one metal (white or yellow /
                silver or gold) and one color (blue, green, purple, red, or black), and
                since tincture was not 'locked in' for mon, it was just thought of as
                color-on-metal or metal-on-color, and for identification purposes,
                thought of as black-on-white or white-on-black; many mon were displayed
                with a certain color combinaion preference, but were not limited by it,
                except in a very few, very rare instances. AFAIK, there are no period
                instances of mon having three tinctures (black, red, and yellow), and
                while there were (was ?) mon of the form "color, a metal fan charged
                with a color roundel, all within a orle metal" (to use European, and
                thus, SCA, heraldic terminology), there would be only one value for
                'metal' and one value for 'color' for a given display of the mon.

                Now, all that said, if you *really* want to have a gold fan charged
                with a red roundel within a gold orle, and really dislike the prospect
                of always having the background be red (which is what you would need to
                do if you wanted to submit a device in the SCA, to be used as a mon
                with proper mon heraldic aesthetics and considerations), there is a
                potential workaround that *might* pass, and be of vaguely period style,
                though I think of it as something of am inelegant solution: submit the
                mon as a badge (rather than a device), fieldless - that means that the
                background could be *any* color, for whatever it was presented upon.
                However, even if you were to do this, I would urge you to not regularly
                display it on a black field (reasonable exceptions would be most any
                lacquerware, including the front of armor), but perhaps on white - gold
                on white is against European heraldic rules, but is perfectly fine in
                Japanese, *and* you would not have the "more than one each of color and
                metal" issue, since white as a field can often be considered 'neutral'.

                > Takeda Imakawa Shirou Yoshitaka


                Sir Koredono

                ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                -------
                Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
                Koredono, KSCA
                djl@...
                Yama-kaminari-ryu
                Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands,
                AEthelmearc
              • Donald J. Luby
                ... Exactly. ... I was unaware of that period (or lack thereof) practice, and will bow to Solveig s superior knowledge on this issue. ... I like the term
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 17, 2003
                  On Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 08:27 PM, Solveig wrote:

                  > Noble Cousin!
                  >
                  > Greetings from Solveig!
                  >
                  >> One thing, if I remember correctly, some time ago when talking to a
                  >> friend of mine who at that time was a local hearld, he said that if I
                  >> submit the mon I should submit it in black and white, as such I can
                  >> say " artists creativity " for the colors if it ever comes up.. But
                  >> as long as the general design is there..
                  >
                  > Times have changed. The CoA does not currently register tinctureless
                  > badges. The field (background) can be tinctureless for a badge. This
                  > allows you to put the badge on anything that you want to, but the
                  > badge design itself needs to have a tincture. If you make it white
                  > on the form, then that is what you get, not any other colour.

                  Exactly.

                  >> Now, does colors fit into Japanese styled Mon is the big question? I
                  >> think so.. I am sure that I have seen a picture of a mon very similar
                  >> ( gold circle, gold fan with red rondel on the fan on a black back
                  >> ground ), I am sure if I do some diging I should be able to find it..
                  >
                  > Putting circles around kamon is pretty modern. There are very few
                  > examples of this convention before 1600. In 1900, putting circles
                  > around the outside was common as dirt, but in 1600 they were rare.
                  > it is much better style to leave the circle off.

                  I was unaware of that period (or lack thereof) practice, and will bow
                  to Solveig's superior knowledge on this issue.

                  >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/files/Mon/
                  >
                  > Now that I see your proposal I can point out other problems. You
                  > are having two different kinds of charges: a fan and three roundels.
                  > That breaks a Japanese style concept of having a single unified
                  > design. You can for example have an oxcart wheel or a chrysanthemum
                  > emerge from water or a mountain emerge from clouds as in these cases
                  > you have a unified design. Another unified design associates a
                  > particular
                  > kind of bird with bamboo as they are conceptually linked. Another thing
                  > that you can do is repeat the same object multiple times. There are
                  > several ways of doing this.

                  I like the term 'unified design' - it really does get across what I
                  tried to previously in my commentary regarding how two (or more)
                  completely different charges would not have been put on the same mon.
                  A much more elegant and compact way of referring to that concept.

                  > Now for a technical CoA point. I did not understand that your roundels
                  > were detached from your fan. This makes fieldless impossible. Last I
                  > heard, the CoA was only allowing fieldless for badges which have a
                  > single connected charge.

                  I'm uncertain about that, but will look into it with my connections in
                  the CoA device submissions chain; I just submitted a fieldless badge,
                  with two charges, but as they are conjoined, this issue never even came
                  up.

                  > --
                  >
                  > Your Humble Servant
                  > Solveig Throndardottir
                  > Amateur Scholar
                  >
                  > +----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > +
                  > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS
                  > |
                  > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est
                  > |
                  > | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@...
                  > |
                  > +----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > +





                  Sir Koredono

                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  -------
                  Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
                  Koredono, KSCA
                  djl@...
                  Yama-kaminari-ryu
                  Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands,
                  AEthelmearc
                • Solveig
                  Koredono Busho! Greetings from Solveig! ... I believe this to be false. There are examples of polychrome kamon on the sides of buildings &c. The actual
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 18, 2003
                    Koredono Busho!

                    Greetings from Solveig!
                    >except in a very few, very rare instances. AFAIK, there are no period
                    >instances of mon having three tinctures

                    I believe this to be false. There are examples of polychrome kamon on
                    the sides of buildings &c. The actual tincture limit appears to be
                    three if you count the background. If you do not count the background,
                    then the limit is two.

                    You should definitely register your kamon as a badge. If you want to
                    register it as arms as well, then pick a field that you like and put
                    in a second registration for it as arms.
                    --

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                    | the trash by my email filters. |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  • ELAINE KOOGLER
                    I am not Solveig, but I have been a Kingdom Principal Herald...many years back, but nevertheless. I have fought the mon battle many times over. I have to
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 18, 2003
                      I am not Solveig, but I have been a Kingdom Principal Herald...many
                      years back, but nevertheless. I have fought the "mon" battle many
                      times over. I have to admit that I would have problems passing this
                      mon. I agree with others that I've never see a Japanese mon designed
                      in quite this manner. My suggestion is that you get rid of the 3
                      roundels and go with just the one on the fan. Make the fan fill the
                      entire space within the annulet (the ring part), and make the roundel
                      on the fan the same color as the other "color" part, i.e., black. It
                      will be much more handsome design...and probably will pass a lot easier.

                      Kiri



                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Jason Silver <BATTLEWEAR@...>
                      Date: Thursday, July 17, 2003 8:02 pm
                      Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: My Mon

                      > <span><p><span><p>
                      >
                      >
                      > <tt>
                      > Greetings Solvieg!
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Here is the address to the file, then just click on the mon in the
                      >
                      > folder.. It is a folding style fan..
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > One thing, if I remember correctly, some time ago when talking to
                      > a
                      >
                      > friend of mine who at that time was a local hearld, he said that
                      > if I
                      >
                      > submit the mon I should submit it in black and white, as such I
                      > can
                      >
                      > say " artists creativity " for the colors if it ever
                      > comes up.. But
                      >
                      > as long as the general design is there..
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Now, does colors fit into Japanese styled Mon is the big question?
                      > I
                      >
                      > think so.. I am sure that I have seen a picture of a mon very
                      > similar
                      >
                      > ( gold circle, gold fan with red rondel on the fan on a black back
                      >
                      > ground ), I am sure if I do some diging I should be able to find it..
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/files/Mon/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Takeda Imakawa Shirou Yoshitaka
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > Noble Cousin!
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Greetings from Solvieg! What is the URL? I read the blazon
                      > quoted by
                      >
                      > > Koredono Busho. What kind of fan are you using: a solid fan
                      > or a
                      >
                      > > folding fan?
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Of the folding variety. The decoration which is clearly Japanese
                      >
                      > > is a single roundel. For the non-folding war fan, there is a
                      > kamon
                      > > with two columns of three pine trees. In blazon, that would
                      > probably
                      > > just be a seme of pine trees.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > I do not recommend making the roundels different colours. This
                      >
                      > > breaks up the unity of the design.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > If you like reoundels, then you can put them in a number of
                      >
                      > interesteing
                      >
                      > > arrangments as long as they present a unified design. For
                      > example,
                      >
                      > you can
                      >
                      > > arrange roundels in a square, a rectangle, or in a circle
                      >
                      > surrounding a
                      >
                      > > central roundel. As fordecorated fans. The only fan
                      > decoration
                      >
                      > which I am
                      >
                      > > familiar with is slogans written in kanji. The CoA will have
                      > a fit
                      >
                      > > if you submit a fan with kanji on it. Even if they do not
                      > throw a
                      >
                      > fit,
                      >
                      > > they will not count difference based on the content of the
                      > slogan.
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Now then. There are fans which are used in battle that have a
                      > single
                      > > roundel on them. Those are another matter.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Ref. Kamon Kakei Jiten by Yoshida Taiyou (1979).
                      >
                      > > --
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Your Humble Servant
                      >
                      > > Solveig Throndardottir
                      >
                      > > Amateur Scholar
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > +-------------------------------------------------------------
                      > ------
                      >
                      > ---+
                      >
                      > > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir,
                      > CoM,
                      >
                      > CoS |
                      >
                      > > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis
                      >
                      > Est |
                      >
                      > > | mailto:nostrand@a... | mailto:bnostran@l... |
                      >
                      > > +-------------------------------------------------------------
                      > ------
                      >
                      > ---+
                      >
                      > > | Note. Many popular "free" email services are
                      > automatically routed
                      >
                      > to |
                      >
                      > > | the trash by my email
                      >
                      > filters. |
                      >
                      > > +-------------------------------------------------------------
                      > ------
                      >
                      > ---+
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > </tt>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
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                    • Solveig
                      Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... Except loose the ring part. There is only a handful of instances of these rings before 1600. Also, you may be better
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 18, 2003
                        Noble Cousins!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        >in quite this manner. My suggestion is that you get rid of the 3
                        >roundels and go with just the one on the fan. Make the fan fill the
                        >entire space within the annulet (the ring part), and make the roundel
                        >on the fan the same color as the other "color" part, i.e., black. It
                        >will be much more handsome design...and probably will pass a lot easier.

                        Except loose the ring part. There is only a handful of instances of
                        these rings before 1600. Also, you may be better off picking something
                        other than a red roundel to put on the fan.
                        --

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                        | the trash by my email filters. |
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      • Jason Silver
                        Greetings all Well being that it looks like I need to do a redesign of my mon :) I have a question that will hopefully help me.. Does any one have access to or
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 18, 2003
                          Greetings all

                          Well being that it looks like I need to do a redesign of my mon :) I
                          have a question that will hopefully help me..
                          Does any one have access to or know of the following book?

                          Mon the Japanese Family Crest
                          ASIN: 0910704678

                          I currently have an order in for it from the University here so that
                          I can sit and check it out for a long while. What I am wondering is,
                          how well will this help me?

                          Takeda Imakawa Shirou Yoshitaka


                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                          > Noble Cousins!
                          >
                          > Greetings from Solveig!
                          >
                          > >in quite this manner. My suggestion is that you get rid of the 3
                          > >roundels and go with just the one on the fan. Make the fan fill
                          the
                          > >entire space within the annulet (the ring part), and make the
                          roundel
                          > >on the fan the same color as the other "color" part, i.e., black.
                          It
                          > >will be much more handsome design...and probably will pass a lot
                          easier.
                          >
                          > Except loose the ring part. There is only a handful of instances of
                          > these rings before 1600. Also, you may be better off picking
                          something
                          > other than a red roundel to put on the fan.
                          > --
                          >
                          > Your Humble Servant
                          > Solveig Throndardottir
                          > Amateur Scholar
                          >
                          > +-------------------------------------------------------------------
                          ---+
                          > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM,
                          CoS |
                          > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis
                          Est |
                          > | mailto:nostrand@a... | mailto:bnostran@l... |
                          > +-------------------------------------------------------------------
                          ---+
                          > | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed
                          to |
                          > | the trash by my email
                          filters. |
                          > +-------------------------------------------------------------------
                          ---+
                        • Solveig
                          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Please do not bother with that book. If you have access to a research library you should look for the following book:
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jul 18, 2003
                            Noble Cousin!

                            Greetings from Solveig! Please do not bother with that book. If you have
                            access to a research library you should look for the following book:

                            Hashimoto, Hiroshi. Daibukan Vol 1.

                            Everything up to page 209 is period.
                            --

                            Your Humble Servant
                            Solveig Throndardottir
                            Amateur Scholar

                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                            | the trash by my email filters. |
                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          • ELAINE KOOGLER
                            I have a couple of books on Japanese mon, and this may be one of them. Let me check and I ll get back to you. Kiri ... From: Jason Silver
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jul 21, 2003
                              I have a couple of books on Japanese mon, and this may be one of them.
                              Let me check and I'll get back to you.

                              Kiri



                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Jason Silver <BATTLEWEAR@...>
                              Date: Friday, July 18, 2003 6:51 pm
                              Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: My Mon

                              > <span><p><span><p>
                              >
                              >
                              > <tt>
                              > Greetings all
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Well being that it looks like I need to do a redesign of my mon :)
                              > I
                              >
                              > have a question that will hopefully help me..
                              >
                              > Does any one have access to or know of the following book?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Mon the Japanese Family Crest
                              >
                              > ASIN: 0910704678
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I currently have an order in for it from the University here so
                              > that
                              >
                              > I can sit and check it out for a long while. What I am wondering
                              > is,
                              >
                              > how well will this help me?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Takeda Imakawa Shirou Yoshitaka
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > Noble Cousins!
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Greetings from Solveig!
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >in quite this manner. My suggestion is that you get rid
                              > of the 3
                              >
                              > > >roundels and go with just the one on the fan. Make the
                              > fan fill
                              >
                              > the
                              >
                              > > >entire space within the annulet (the ring part), and make
                              > the
                              >
                              > roundel
                              >
                              > > >on the fan the same color as the other "color"
                              > part, i.e., black.
                              >
                              > It
                              >
                              > > >will be much more handsome design...and probably will
                              > pass a lot
                              >
                              > easier.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Except loose the ring part. There is only a handful of
                              > instances of
                              >
                              > > these rings before 1600. Also, you may be better off picking
                              >
                              > something
                              >
                              > > other than a red roundel to put on the fan.
                              >
                              > > --
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Your Humble Servant
                              >
                              > > Solveig Throndardottir
                              >
                              > > Amateur Scholar
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > +-------------------------------------------------------------
                              > ------
                              >
                              > ---+
                              >
                              > > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir,
                              > CoM,
                              >
                              > CoS |
                              >
                              > > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis
                              >
                              > Est |
                              >
                              > > | mailto:nostrand@a... | mailto:bnostran@l... |
                              >
                              > > +-------------------------------------------------------------
                              > ------
                              >
                              > ---+
                              >
                              > > | Note. Many popular "free" email services are
                              > automatically routed
                              >
                              > to |
                              >
                              > > | the trash by my email
                              >
                              > filters. |
                              >
                              > > +-------------------------------------------------------------
                              > ------
                              >
                              > ---+
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > </tt>
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                            • Jason Silver
                              Greetings all I had a idea this morning and quickly whipped it out in paint.. I have posted it and would like some feed back on it.. I am guessing that it is
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jul 31, 2003
                                Greetings all

                                I had a idea this morning and quickly whipped it out in paint.. I
                                have posted it and would like some feed back on it..

                                I am guessing that it is better then my first attempt :) It is also a
                                good representation of me.. I saw some pictures of diamonds linked
                                and when I saw them it reminded me of chain maille, which I have been
                                making for over 13 years..

                                So? what do you all think :) Is it period? Would this pass a little
                                easier? any comments? concerns? :)

                                Takeda Imakawa Shirou Yoshitaka


                                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                                > Noble Cousin!
                                >
                                > Greetings from Solveig! Please do not bother with that book. If you
                                have
                                > access to a research library you should look for the following book:
                                >
                                > Hashimoto, Hiroshi. Daibukan Vol 1.
                                >
                                > Everything up to page 209 is period.
                                > --
                                >
                                > Your Humble Servant
                                > Solveig Throndardottir
                                > Amateur Scholar
                                >
                                > +-------------------------------------------------------------------
                                ---+
                                > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM,
                                CoS |
                                > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis
                                Est |
                                > | mailto:nostrand@a... | mailto:bnostran@l... |
                                > +-------------------------------------------------------------------
                                ---+
                                > | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed
                                to |
                                > | the trash by my email
                                filters. |
                                > +-------------------------------------------------------------------
                                ---+
                              • Donald J. Luby
                                ... Aesthetically, I like it, personally (but then, I do have a preference for mascles (voided lozenges)). The four mascles are reminiscent of the Takeda mon
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jul 31, 2003
                                  On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 07:45 AM, Jason Silver wrote:

                                  >
                                  > Greetings all
                                  >
                                  > I had a idea this morning and quickly whipped it out in paint.. I
                                  > have posted it and would like some feed back on it..
                                  >
                                  > I am guessing that it is better then my first attempt :) It is also a
                                  > good representation of me.. I saw some pictures of diamonds linked
                                  > and when I saw them it reminded me of chain maille, which I have been
                                  > making for over 13 years..
                                  >
                                  > So? what do you all think :) Is it period? Would this pass a little
                                  > easier? any comments? concerns? :)

                                  Aesthetically, I like it, personally (but then, I do have a preference
                                  for mascles (voided lozenges)).
                                  The four mascles are reminiscent of the Takeda mon (which is four
                                  lozenges), and the 'four lozenges together, with one centered on top'
                                  is a pretty good period design.
                                  I can find references to two mascles 'linked' together (in most every
                                  position), but not more; there are also cirlce linked together (of two
                                  and more), and I can find references to 'woven' arms (fret / fretty in
                                  European), but only with straight lines. So, I see no reason why having
                                  the one on top linked through the four beneath wouldn't be okay.
                                  I know some feel that having charges like that within a circle is rare
                                  in period, but I kinda like it, and there seems to be some precedent,
                                  especially for lozenges within a circle.

                                  The only nit I would pick is one of artistic license - IMO you should
                                  make the mascles look less like squares titled at 45 degrees, and more
                                  like lozenges, either short and wide, or tall and skinny, but they
                                  should all look the same (i.e. don't have the bottom four one way and
                                  the top one the other).

                                  Not speaking enough herald-ese, I have no idea what the blzaon would
                                  be, but if you're going to be at Pennsic, stop by Herald's Point, and
                                  they may be able to help (esp. some of 'my' local heralds, who I've
                                  been working with a bit), and maybe even start the registration
                                  process. They could do the conflict checking for you, and tell you
                                  whether it should pass. Also, Yama Kaminari is just a block away from
                                  Herald's Point ...

                                  > Takeda Imakawa Shirou Yoshitaka



                                  Sir Koredono

                                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  -------
                                  Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
                                  Koredono, KSCA
                                  djl@...
                                  Yama-kaminari-ryu
                                  Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands,
                                  AEthelmearc
                                • Anthony J. Bryant
                                  ... In terms of basic design, not bad. I like it. It s both distinctive, and has a very real Japanese feel to it. You really don t need the ring, though, as
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jul 31, 2003
                                    Jason Silver wrote:

                                    > Greetings all
                                    >
                                    > I had a idea this morning and quickly whipped it out in paint.. I
                                    > have posted it and would like some feed back on it..
                                    >
                                    > I am guessing that it is better then my first attempt :) It is also a
                                    > good representation of me.. I saw some pictures of diamonds linked
                                    > and when I saw them it reminded me of chain maille, which I have been
                                    > making for over 13 years..
                                    >
                                    > So? what do you all think :) Is it period? Would this pass a little
                                    > easier? any comments? concerns? :)
                                    >

                                    In terms of basic design, not bad. I like it. It's both distinctive, and has a very real Japanese feel to it.

                                    You really don't need the ring, though, as most designs with rings are post period (though, admittedly, not all).

                                    The actual problem is with the interlacing. I recognize the mail pattern immediately, but there are two problems:

                                    (1) This isn't a heraldically recognized method of interlacing figures. Either a direct over-under lacing all through
                                    the piece, or a simple overlay are appropriate.

                                    (2) Four-in-one mail isn't a native Japanese mode of mail. It is an import, and they did use it, but very, very few
                                    foreign things (I can't even think of one other than hats) made it into Japanese heraldry.

                                    My suggestion would be to drop the circle and fully interlace the mascles.


                                    Effingham
                                  • Solveig
                                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! I is an improvement over the earlier one. Sorry to say, it still doesn t feel quite right. There is a basket weave
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jul 31, 2003
                                      Noble Cousin!

                                      Greetings from Solveig! I is an improvement over the earlier one.
                                      Sorry to say, it still doesn't feel quite right. There is a basket
                                      weave pattern in Japanese armory, but it looks just like a star of
                                      david. The other important interlaced pattern is the well-frame.
                                      Also, while the annular ring is common as dirt in current
                                      pattern books, it really is quite rare before 1600. Honest.

                                      Why not start out by loosing the circle? If you loose the circle,
                                      then you can do really nice Kamakura period style stuff with the
                                      thing like print it all over the fabric used to make your clothes.

                                      Looking up Takeda Shingen in my handy dandy pocket guide to kamon
                                      aka. Kamon Kakei Jiten by Yoshida Taiyou (1979), we see that he
                                      used four "hishi" (diamonds) which are not voided or decorated.

                                      About European hats. The only one that I can think of that made
                                      it into Japanese heraldry is the cardinal's hat. That one only
                                      made it in because the Iberians gave one to Oda Nobunaga who
                                      decided to use it as his standard.
                                      --

                                      Your Humble Servant
                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Amateur Scholar

                                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                      | the trash by my email filters. |
                                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                                      ... That s the one. The only reason I mentioned it is that if I said nothing European made it, someone would ve said what about the cardinal s hat? BTW,
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jul 31, 2003
                                        Solveig wrote:

                                        >
                                        > About European hats. The only one that I can think of that made
                                        > it into Japanese heraldry is the cardinal's hat. That one only
                                        > made it in because the Iberians gave one to Oda Nobunaga who
                                        > decided to use it as his standard.
                                        >

                                        That's the one. The only reason I mentioned it is that if I said nothing European made it, someone would've said "what about the cardinal's hat?" <G>

                                        BTW, when are you arriving at Pennsic?


                                        Effingham
                                      • Jason Silver
                                        Greetings ... preference ... top ... every ... two ... in ... having ... rare ... precedent, ... The inspiration for the design came from the Takeda kamon.. I
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jul 31, 2003
                                          Greetings

                                          > Aesthetically, I like it, personally (but then, I do have a
                                          preference
                                          > for mascles (voided lozenges)).
                                          > The four mascles are reminiscent of the Takeda mon (which is four
                                          > lozenges), and the 'four lozenges together, with one centered on
                                          top'
                                          > is a pretty good period design.
                                          > I can find references to two mascles 'linked' together (in most
                                          every
                                          > position), but not more; there are also cirlce linked together (of
                                          two
                                          > and more), and I can find references to 'woven' arms (fret / fretty
                                          in
                                          > European), but only with straight lines. So, I see no reason why
                                          having
                                          > the one on top linked through the four beneath wouldn't be okay.
                                          > I know some feel that having charges like that within a circle is
                                          rare
                                          > in period, but I kinda like it, and there seems to be some
                                          precedent,
                                          > especially for lozenges within a circle.

                                          The inspiration for the design came from the Takeda kamon.. I thought
                                          about using it as my persona is from the Takeda clan (at present, but
                                          this might change yet!).. While looking at the Takeda Shingen kamon I
                                          saw a Hishi-gata kamon.. I thought it was really cool.. It was then I
                                          started having the idea of the changes I would like to do.. The
                                          Yonekura family used the hishi-gata kamon (I really hope I am saying
                                          this all correctly as I am trying to read this and it is not really
                                          clear to me).. On top of that I came across the Sasakawa family crest
                                          which is similar except it is thicker and on it's side comparitivly.
                                          What finally did it was seeing the Soshi and Fushiki kamon's. The
                                          Soshi and Fushiki kamon appear to be interlaced rings. The Fushiki is
                                          3 rings..

                                          From these influences I designed the current kamon.. What I felt was
                                          that Yes it did look like European 4 in 1 chain maille, but it also
                                          reminded me of Japanese 4 in 1 (which I have made lots of).. I
                                          thought that as such it might be easier to pass.. If there is some
                                          conflict in the appearence if it would make it better I will move the
                                          squares out to each of the center ring's points and that should give
                                          it a much greater appearence of Japanese chain maille.


                                          > The only nit I would pick is one of artistic license - IMO you
                                          should
                                          > make the mascles look less like squares titled at 45 degrees, and
                                          more
                                          > like lozenges, either short and wide, or tall and skinny, but they
                                          > should all look the same (i.e. don't have the bottom four one way
                                          and
                                          > the top one the other).

                                          I thought about making the mascles more wide and slim but I only had
                                          15 minutes before I had to leave for work and just whipped it
                                          together :)

                                          > Not speaking enough herald-ese, I have no idea what the blzaon
                                          would
                                          > be, but if you're going to be at Pennsic, stop by Herald's Point,
                                          and
                                          > they may be able to help (esp. some of 'my' local heralds, who
                                          I've
                                          > been working with a bit), and maybe even start the registration
                                          > process. They could do the conflict checking for you, and tell
                                          you
                                          > whether it should pass. Also, Yama Kaminari is just a block away
                                          from
                                          > Herald's Point ...

                                          As much as I wish I could, I am stuck here in An Tir and will not be
                                          going to Pennsic.. It is a dream of mine that I make it one day and
                                          would be SO HONORED to meet so many from the list and to meet the
                                          clans! Some times being so far North is not such a good thing, we
                                          (Japanese persona's) are few and far between, and I know my self,
                                          envy those that are close enough to be apart of something so special
                                          as the Clan Yama Kaminari or the Clan of Matsuyama.

                                          Being that said, I hope that at an upcomming Crown tourney there
                                          might be some heralds that I can sit and talk with..

                                          Solveig - First, thank you, yes I think it is a great improvement
                                          too. I am excited about this design, it seems more me and more
                                          Japanese.. Due to the number of people saying that the outer ring is
                                          not fully period (yes some examples, but rare), I will drop that..

                                          I am going to play with it a little more and see what comes of it,
                                          but so far I like it :)

                                          Takeda Imakawa Shirou Yoshitaka


                                          > > Takeda Imakawa Shirou Yoshitaka
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Sir Koredono
                                          >
                                          > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                          ----
                                          > -------
                                          > Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
                                          > Koredono, KSCA
                                          > djl@t...
                                          > Yama-kaminari-ryu
                                          > Pittsburgh, PA Debatable
                                          Lands,
                                          > AEthelmearc
                                        • Solveig
                                          Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! Currently, I am planning on going to Pennsic Wednesday of next week. -- Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jul 31, 2003
                                            Baron Edward!

                                            Greetings from Solveig! Currently, I am planning on going to Pennsic
                                            Wednesday of next week.
                                            --

                                            Your Humble Servant
                                            Solveig Throndardottir
                                            Amateur Scholar

                                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                            | the trash by my email filters. |
                                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                          • Donald J. Luby
                                            ... I know; that s why I mentioned it :) Actually, my persona is a Takeda vassal as well, which is why my mon has three lozenges within a mascle. ... Right; I
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jul 31, 2003
                                              On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 07:25 PM, Jason Silver wrote:

                                              >
                                              > Greetings
                                              >
                                              >> Aesthetically, I like it, personally (but then, I do have a preference
                                              >> for mascles (voided lozenges)).
                                              >> The four mascles are reminiscent of the Takeda mon (which is four
                                              >> lozenges), and the 'four lozenges together, with one centered on top'
                                              >> is a pretty good period design.
                                              >> I can find references to two mascles 'linked' together (in most every
                                              >> position), but not more; there are also cirlce linked together (of two
                                              >> and more), and I can find references to 'woven' arms (fret / fretty in
                                              >> European), but only with straight lines. So, I see no reason why
                                              >> having
                                              >> the one on top linked through the four beneath wouldn't be okay.
                                              >> I know some feel that having charges like that within a circle is rare
                                              >> in period, but I kinda like it, and there seems to be some precedent,
                                              >> especially for lozenges within a circle.
                                              >
                                              > The inspiration for the design came from the Takeda kamon.. I thought
                                              > about using it as my persona is from the Takeda clan (at present, but
                                              > this might change yet!)..

                                              I know; that's why I mentioned it :)

                                              Actually, my persona is a Takeda vassal as well, which is why my mon
                                              has three lozenges within a mascle.

                                              > While looking at the Takeda Shingen kamon I saw a Hishi-gata kamon.. I
                                              > thought it was really cool.. It was then I started having the idea of
                                              > the changes I would like to do.. The Yonekura family used the
                                              > hishi-gata kamon (I really hope I am saying this all correctly as I am
                                              > trying to read this and it is not really clear to me).. On top of that
                                              > I came across the Sasakawa family crest which is similar except it is
                                              > thicker and on it's side comparitivly. What finally did it was seeing
                                              > the Soshi and Fushiki kamon's. The Soshi and Fushiki kamon appear to
                                              > be interlaced rings. The Fushiki is 3 rings..

                                              Right; I came across the linked rings.

                                              > From these influences I designed the current kamon.. What I felt was
                                              > that Yes it did look like European 4 in 1 chain maille, but it also
                                              > reminded me of Japanese 4 in 1 (which I have made lots of).. I thought
                                              > that as such it might be easier to pass.. If there is some conflict in
                                              > the appearence if it would make it better I will move the squares out
                                              > to each of the center ring's points and that should give it a much
                                              > greater appearence of Japanese chain maille.

                                              I think that's a mostly artistic license thing, but I'd double-check
                                              with the heralds. Personally, I like it close like it is.

                                              >> The only nit I would pick is one of artistic license - IMO you should
                                              >> make the mascles look less like squares titled at 45 degrees, and more
                                              >> like lozenges, either short and wide, or tall and skinny, but they
                                              >> should all look the same (i.e. don't have the bottom four one way and
                                              >> the top one the other).
                                              >
                                              > I thought about making the mascles more wide and slim but I only had
                                              > 15 minutes before I had to leave for work and just whipped it
                                              > together :)

                                              Okay :)

                                              >> Not speaking enough herald-ese, I have no idea what the blzaon would
                                              >> be, but if you're going to be at Pennsic, stop by Herald's Point, and
                                              >> they may be able to help (esp. some of 'my' local heralds, who I've
                                              >> been working with a bit), and maybe even start the registration
                                              >> process. They could do the conflict checking for you, and tell you
                                              >> whether it should pass. Also, Yama Kaminari is just a block away from
                                              >> Herald's Point ...
                                              >
                                              > As much as I wish I could, I am stuck here in An Tir and will not be
                                              > going to Pennsic.. It is a dream of mine that I make it one day and
                                              > would be SO HONORED to meet so many from the list and to meet the
                                              > clans! Some times being so far North is not such a good thing, we
                                              > (Japanese persona's) are few and far between, and I know my self,
                                              > envy those that are close enough to be apart of something so special
                                              > as the Clan Yama Kaminari or the Clan of Matsuyama.
                                              >
                                              > Being that said, I hope that at an upcomming Crown tourney there
                                              > might be some heralds that I can sit and talk with..

                                              Well, I'll still bring it up to our local heralds (who also happen to
                                              be our kingdom submission heralds), if they can come up with a decent
                                              blazon, I'll send it along to you.

                                              > Solveig - First, thank you, yes I think it is a great improvement
                                              > too. I am excited about this design, it seems more me and more
                                              > Japanese.. Due to the number of people saying that the outer ring is
                                              > not fully period (yes some examples, but rare), I will drop that..
                                              >
                                              > I am going to play with it a little more and see what comes of it,
                                              > but so far I like it :)
                                              >
                                              > Takeda Imakawa Shirou Yoshitaka

                                              Koredono
                                            • Jason Silver
                                              Greetings! Solveig, I have gotten my hands on the book you suggested not to look at, it has helped some what.. But I have been attempting to get my hands on
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Aug 1, 2003
                                                Greetings!

                                                Solveig, I have gotten my hands on the book you suggested not to look
                                                at, it has helped some what.. But I have been attempting to get my
                                                hands on the book you DO suggest but I am having some trouble..

                                                Would you happen to have a ISBN number for the book? It might help me
                                                locate it.

                                                Imakawa Shirou Yoshitaka


                                                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                                                > Noble Cousin!
                                                >
                                                > Greetings from Solveig! Please do not bother with that book. If you
                                                have
                                                > access to a research library you should look for the following book:
                                                >
                                                > Hashimoto, Hiroshi. Daibukan Vol 1.
                                                >
                                                > Everything up to page 209 is period.
                                                > --
                                                >
                                                > Your Humble Servant
                                                > Solveig Throndardottir
                                                > Amateur Scholar
                                                >
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                                              • Solveig
                                                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig. Daibukan by Hashimoto is too old to have an ISBN. Copies are held by the following libraries: NY COLUMBIA UNIV, E ASIAN
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Aug 1, 2003
                                                  Noble Cousin!

                                                  Greetings from Solveig. Daibukan by Hashimoto is too old to have an ISBN.
                                                  Copies are held by the following libraries:

                                                  NY COLUMBIA UNIV, E ASIAN ZCA
                                                  NY CORNELL UNIV COO
                                                  CA HOOVER INST ON WAR, REVOLUTION & PEACE HIN
                                                  CA UNIV OF CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY CUY
                                                  CA UNIV OF CALIFORNIA, DAVIS, SHIELDS LIBR CUV
                                                  CA UNIV OF CALIFORNIA, SANTA BARBARA CUT
                                                  CT YALE UNIV LIBR YUS
                                                  IL NORTHWESTERN UNIV INU
                                                  IL UNIV OF CHICAGO CGU
                                                  IN INDIANA UNIV IUL
                                                  MA AMHERST COL AMH
                                                  MA HARVARD UNIV, YENCHING LIBR HMY
                                                  MA UNIV OF MASSACHUSETTS AMHERST AUM
                                                  MN UNIV OF MINNESOTA, MINNEAPOLIS MNU
                                                  NC DUKE UNIV LIBR NDD
                                                  NJ PRINCETON UNIV PUL
                                                  PA UNIV OF PENNSYLVANIA PAU
                                                  PA UNIV OF PITTSBURGH PIT
                                                  WI UNIV OF WISCONSIN, MADISON, GEN LIBR SYS GZM
                                                  AS UNIV OF AUCKLAND LIBR UV0
                                                  AS WASEDA UNIV LIBR LWU

                                                  Title: Daibukan /
                                                  Author(s): Hashimoto, Hiroshi.
                                                  Publication: Tokyo : Meicho Kankokai,
                                                  Edition: Kaitei zoho.
                                                  Year: 1965
                                                  Description: 3 v. : ill., facsims., geneal. tables, maps, ports. ; 27 cm.
                                                  Language: Japanese (Show vernacular)
                                                  SUBJECT(S)
                                                  Descriptor: Heraldry -- Japan.
                                                  Feudalism -- Japan -- History -- Sources.
                                                  Geographic: Japan -- Genealogy.
                                                  Note(s): Includes index.
                                                  Class Descriptors: LC: CS1304
                                                  Other Titles: Kaitei zoho Daibukan
                                                  Responsibility: [hensha Hashimoto Hiroshi ; Tokutomi Soho jo]
                                                  Document Type: Book
                                                  Entry: 19880427
                                                  Update: 20010824
                                                  Accession No: OCLC: 24981845
                                                  Database: WorldCat
                                                  --

                                                  Your Humble Servant
                                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                                  Amateur Scholar

                                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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                                                • Solveig
                                                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solvieg! I do have a suggestion. 1) Japanese did not generally use colour in the way that you are using in their designs.
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Aug 5, 2003
                                                    Noble Cousin!

                                                    Greetings from Solvieg!

                                                    I do have a suggestion.

                                                    1) Japanese did not generally use colour in the way that you are using
                                                    in their designs. Enclosing circles are unusual before 1600. The
                                                    combination of dots and the fan is also unusual. In herald speak,
                                                    you have three "weirdnesses". Generally speaking, the CoA tries
                                                    to discourage "weirdness" and limits people to at most one. However,
                                                    the CoA will judge the thing based on Anglo-Norman heraldry and
                                                    those things which are "weird" by Japanese standards, but normative
                                                    by Anglo-Norman standards will pass under their radar. The CoA will
                                                    probably just grumble slightly about how you are using the four balls.
                                                    Incidentally, Japanese fans are more typically shown fully open rather
                                                    than half open.

                                                    Important CoA Note. You will have to pick a background colour in
                                                    order to register this design with the College of Arms. The College
                                                    of Arms has taken it into their heads that badges are supposed to
                                                    be solid pieces of metal. Consequently, they are not registering
                                                    badges which are both disconnected and lack a background. This is
                                                    why it is best to pick a single Japanese charge. Doing so allows
                                                    you to print it all over any kind of background you want.
                                                    --

                                                    Your Humble Servant
                                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                                    Amateur Scholar

                                                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                                    | the trash by my email filters. |
                                                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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