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  • Anna
    I was thinking about an alternate, Ainu persona (especially for colder events!) Are there some good books or other resources on the subject, aside from
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 11 6:43 PM
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      I was thinking about an alternate, Ainu persona (especially for
      colder events!)
      Are there some good books or other resources on the subject, aside
      from "Unbeaten Tracks in Japan" by Isabella Bird? I was hoping to
      find some more in-period descriptions and/or images, especially of
      women and tatooing.
      Thanks!
      -Anna
    • Solveig
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! I recommend: Batchelor, John. The Ainu and their Folk-Lore. London, The Religious Tract Society, 1901. The problem with
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 12 7:59 AM
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        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        I recommend:

        Batchelor, John. The Ainu and their Folk-Lore. London, The Religious
        Tract Society, 1901.

        The problem with studying Ainu is that they did not develop writing and
        Hokkaido was being overun during the nineteenth century. After securing
        Hokkaido, the Japnaese government generally practiced a policy of
        assimiliation.

        You really do not need to recreate the Ainu in order to be warm at events.
        I cam assure you from direct personal experience that a great deal of
        Honshu gets quite cold. Americans continue to believe this nonsense about
        Japan being tropical. I think that it stems from fighting the Japanese
        in the South Pacific where the Japanese were just as uncomfortable as the
        Americans. However, I do think that the Japanese uniform was a bit better
        adapted. American uniforms (at least as portrayed) are ill adapted for
        the tropics. The British and French do better.
        --

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
        | the trash by my email filters. |
        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ii Saburou
        ... Agreed. I was in Oertha (AK) for a while. Layers are fine for keeping you warm. In fact, I m occassionally TOO warm here in Atlantia (although it
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 12 9:05 AM
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          On Sat, 12 Jul 2003, Solveig wrote:

          > You really do not need to recreate the Ainu in order to be warm at events.

          Agreed. I was in Oertha (AK) for a while. Layers are fine for keeping
          you warm. In fact, I'm occassionally TOO warm here in Atlantia (although
          it usually isn't much of a problem.

          > I cam assure you from direct personal experience that a great deal of
          > Honshu gets quite cold. Americans continue to believe this nonsense about
          > Japan being tropical. I think that it stems from fighting the Japanese
          > in the South Pacific where the Japanese were just as uncomfortable as the
          > Americans. However, I do think that the Japanese uniform was a bit better
          > adapted. American uniforms (at least as portrayed) are ill adapted for
          > the tropics. The British and French do better.

          I think the warm currents flowing north probably have a lot to do with
          that too, as well, probably, as the lack of a major landmass to stop
          incoming storms (like similar places on the East Coast of the US have to
          dampen the hurricanes that instead hit Florida, Louisiana, etc.)

          Also, I must say that when I was there the summer got oppressively hot and
          humid at times. The high levels of precipitation and high temperatures
          perhaps combined with just an island climate may all help fix in people's
          minds the concept that it is 'tropical' (because most people have an
          image rather than an experience and, well, most of us should realize how
          woefully inadequate our sense of geography is these days. Do they still
          teach geography in school?).

          On the other hand, you don't get
          THAT much snow--but I'm biased ;-)

          -Ii
        • Solveig
          Ii Dono! Having beein to Paradise more than a few times, I too know what snow looks like. (Guide to the Perplexed. Paradise has an avaerage annual accumulation
          Message 4 of 17 , Jul 12 10:11 AM
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            Ii Dono!

            Having beein to Paradise more than a few times, I too know what snow
            looks like. (Guide to the Perplexed. Paradise has an avaerage annual
            accumulation of 20 meters.) Parts of Japan get significant snow, if not
            20 meters.
            --

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
            | the trash by my email filters. |
            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          • fitzrichard
            ... I haven t read it yet, but I recently picked up a copy of the following book: Harukor: An Ainu Woman s Tale by Honda Katsuichi, University of California
            Message 5 of 17 , Jul 12 12:16 PM
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              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Anna" <andrivete@k...> wrote:
              > I was thinking about an alternate, Ainu persona (especially for
              > colder events!)
              > Are there some good books or other resources on the subject, aside
              > from "Unbeaten Tracks in Japan" by Isabella Bird? I was hoping to
              > find some more in-period descriptions and/or images, especially of
              > women and tatooing.

              I haven't read it yet, but I recently picked up a copy of the
              following book:

              Harukor: An Ainu Woman's Tale by Honda Katsuichi, University of
              California Press, Berkeley, CA, ISBN 0-520-21020-4

              According to the back cover:
              "In this engging tale, Honda Katsuichi reconstructs the life of an
              Ainu woman living on the northern Island of Japan over five hundred
              years ago. Harukor's story, created from surviving oral accounts of
              Ainu life and culture as well as extensive research in the
              schlarship, takes place in the centuries before the mainland Japanese
              nearly destroyed the way of life depicted here.
              In the first person, the fictional Harukor tells us f her childhood,
              her adolescence, and her motherhood, drawing on tales and songs
              performed by her grandmother and other bards. She describes
              festivals, weddings, childbirth and midwifery, traditional healing
              methods, battles, and funerals in detail. Her story is followed by
              thr adventures of her oldest son, Pasekur, which end by foreshoawing
              an early Ainu rebellion against Japanese encroachment.
              Amply illustrated and prefaced by an extensive introduction to Ainu
              history, the natural surroundings, and the sources used to construct
              Harukor and her world, this volume is a unique portrait of Ainu gods
              and humans, of matters sacred and mundanes, and of the distinctive
              Ainu respect for nature's bounty."

              Well, back to lurking,
              Stephan
            • Anna
              Thank you very much! Oh, yes, I know it can get quite cold in Japan - I m actually looking for an excuse to do Ainu. ^_^* -Anna ... Religious ... and ...
              Message 6 of 17 , Jul 12 6:36 PM
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                Thank you very much!
                Oh, yes, I know it can get quite cold in Japan - I'm actually looking
                for an excuse to do Ainu. ^_^*
                -Anna

                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                > Noble Cousin!
                >
                > Greetings from Solveig!
                >
                > I recommend:
                >
                > Batchelor, John. The Ainu and their Folk-Lore. London, The
                Religious
                > Tract Society, 1901.
                >
                > The problem with studying Ainu is that they did not develop writing
                and
                > Hokkaido was being overun during the nineteenth century. After
                securing
                > Hokkaido, the Japnaese government generally practiced a policy of
                > assimiliation.
                >
                > You really do not need to recreate the Ainu in order to be warm at
                events.
                > I cam assure you from direct personal experience that a great deal
                of
                > Honshu gets quite cold. Americans continue to believe this nonsense
                about
                > Japan being tropical. I think that it stems from fighting the
                Japanese
                > in the South Pacific where the Japanese were just as uncomfortable
                as the
                > Americans. However, I do think that the Japanese uniform was a bit
                better
                > adapted. American uniforms (at least as portrayed) are ill adapted
                for
                > the tropics. The British and French do better.
                > --
                >
                > Your Humble Servant
                > Solveig Throndardottir
                > Amateur Scholar
                >
                > +-------------------------------------------------------------------
                ---+
                > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM,
                CoS |
                > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis
                Est |
                > | mailto:nostrand@a... | mailto:bnostran@l... |
                > +-------------------------------------------------------------------
                ---+
                > | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed
                to |
                > | the trash by my email
                filters. |
                > +-------------------------------------------------------------------
                ---+
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Solveig
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Why do you need an excuse to do Ainu? The real problem is doing good enough research to recreate pre-1600 Ainu. The Ainu
                Message 7 of 17 , Jul 13 4:05 PM
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                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig! Why do you need an excuse to do Ainu? The
                  real problem is doing good enough research to recreate pre-1600
                  Ainu. The Ainu do not have a written language. This means that you
                  will need to depend on archeology and traveler's records.

                  --

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                • Deborah K. Strub
                  I ve done an alternate Ainu persona that turned out reasonably well. I did it because I blundered across some Ainu information while looking for applique
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jul 13 6:11 PM
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                    I've done an alternate Ainu persona that turned out reasonably well. I did
                    it because I blundered across some Ainu information while looking for
                    applique information and was very taken with the designs. The problem is
                    they have no written history. They passed down everything in their epic
                    poem, the Yukar, which is entirely verbal.
                    Also, there is information out there but not much of it is in English.
                    I've had to use Victorian era missionary works to start with (John
                    Batchelor, etc.) and extrapolate backwards from there. There are period
                    Japanese references on the subject but these are colored by their prejudice
                    against the Ainu so you'll have to use caution.
                    I could send you my Ainu bibliography or I could post it to the entire list
                    if there is sufficient interest.

                    Tsuruko

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Anna [mailto:andrivete@...]
                    Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 5:44 PM
                    To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [SCA-JML] More questions!


                    I was thinking about an alternate, Ainu persona (especially for
                    colder events!)
                    Are there some good books or other resources on the subject, aside
                    from "Unbeaten Tracks in Japan" by Isabella Bird? I was hoping to
                    find some more in-period descriptions and/or images, especially of
                    women and tatooing.
                    Thanks!
                    -Anna



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                  • Ii Saburou
                    I believe there are also links between the Ainu and some of the prehistoric Japanese, including the Jomon period Japanese, aren t there? Hopefully Hikari-dono
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jul 13 6:24 PM
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                      I believe there are also links between the Ainu and some of the
                      prehistoric Japanese, including the Jomon period Japanese, aren't there?

                      Hopefully Hikari-dono can speak up as she knows more on that than I.

                      -Ii

                      On Sun, 13 Jul 2003, Deborah K. Strub wrote:

                      > I've done an alternate Ainu persona that turned out reasonably well. I did
                      > it because I blundered across some Ainu information while looking for
                      > applique information and was very taken with the designs. The problem is
                      > they have no written history. They passed down everything in their epic
                      > poem, the Yukar, which is entirely verbal.
                      > Also, there is information out there but not much of it is in English.
                      > I've had to use Victorian era missionary works to start with (John
                      > Batchelor, etc.) and extrapolate backwards from there. There are period
                      > Japanese references on the subject but these are colored by their prejudice
                      > against the Ainu so you'll have to use caution.
                      > I could send you my Ainu bibliography or I could post it to the entire list
                      > if there is sufficient interest.
                      >
                      > Tsuruko
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Anna [mailto:andrivete@...]
                      > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 5:44 PM
                      > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [SCA-JML] More questions!
                      >
                      >
                      > I was thinking about an alternate, Ainu persona (especially for
                      > colder events!)
                      > Are there some good books or other resources on the subject, aside
                      > from "Unbeaten Tracks in Japan" by Isabella Bird? I was hoping to
                      > find some more in-period descriptions and/or images, especially of
                      > women and tatooing.
                      > Thanks!
                      > -Anna
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                    • Anna
                      Please post it if you could! I would appreciate it very much. -Anna ... reasonably well. I did ... for ... problem is ... epic ... English. ... period ...
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jul 13 8:41 PM
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                        Please post it if you could! I would appreciate it very much.
                        -Anna
                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Deborah K. Strub" <tsuruko@r...>
                        wrote:
                        > I've done an alternate Ainu persona that turned out
                        reasonably well. I did
                        > it because I blundered across some Ainu information while looking
                        for
                        > applique information and was very taken with the designs. The
                        problem is
                        > they have no written history. They passed down everything in their
                        epic
                        > poem, the Yukar, which is entirely verbal.
                        > Also, there is information out there but not much of it is in
                        English.
                        > I've had to use Victorian era missionary works to start with (John
                        > Batchelor, etc.) and extrapolate backwards from there. There are
                        period
                        > Japanese references on the subject but these are colored by their
                        prejudice
                        > against the Ainu so you'll have to use caution.
                        > I could send you my Ainu bibliography or I could post it to
                        the entire list
                        > if there is sufficient interest.
                        >
                        > Tsuruko
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Anna [mailto:andrivete@k...]
                        > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 5:44 PM
                        > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [SCA-JML] More questions!
                        >
                        >
                        > I was thinking about an alternate, Ainu persona (especially for
                        > colder events!)
                        > Are there some good books or other resources on the subject, aside
                        > from "Unbeaten Tracks in Japan" by Isabella Bird? I was hoping to
                        > find some more in-period descriptions and/or images, especially of
                        > women and tatooing.
                        > Thanks!
                        > -Anna
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • Solveig
                        Ii Dono! Greetings from Solveig! ... That gets into some nasty Japanese identity politics. About all that we can safely say is that the imperial government was
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jul 15 10:41 PM
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                          Ii Dono!

                          Greetings from Solveig!
                          >I believe there are also links between the Ainu and some of the
                          >prehistoric Japanese, including the Jomon period Japanese, aren't there?

                          That gets into some nasty Japanese identity politics. About all that we
                          can safely say is that the imperial government was dispatchign armies
                          to fight the Ainu for quite some time.

                          The Ainu language appears to be pretty much unrelated to the Japanese.
                          Further, there is no really good reason to presuppose that the Ainu
                          are the cultural ancestors of the Japanese. One nasty question is who
                          arrived first. I think that the Ainu arrived first, but there are
                          people who believe that the Ainu invaded Japan after the Japanese
                          were well established. I suppose it all depends on how you want
                          to interpret shell mounds.
                          --

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar

                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                          | the trash by my email filters. |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        • Ii Saburou
                          ... Well, there appears to be an indigenous population early on (Jomon) that gets displaced by a later culture similar to contemporaries on the Korean
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jul 16 3:39 PM
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                            On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, Solveig wrote:

                            > Ii Dono!
                            >
                            > Greetings from Solveig!
                            > >I believe there are also links between the Ainu and some of the
                            > >prehistoric Japanese, including the Jomon period Japanese, aren't there?
                            >
                            > That gets into some nasty Japanese identity politics. About all that we
                            > can safely say is that the imperial government was dispatchign armies
                            > to fight the Ainu for quite some time.
                            >
                            > The Ainu language appears to be pretty much unrelated to the Japanese.
                            > Further, there is no really good reason to presuppose that the Ainu
                            > are the cultural ancestors of the Japanese. One nasty question is who
                            > arrived first. I think that the Ainu arrived first, but there are
                            > people who believe that the Ainu invaded Japan after the Japanese
                            > were well established. I suppose it all depends on how you want
                            > to interpret shell mounds.

                            Well, there appears to be an indigenous population early on (Jomon) that
                            gets displaced by a later culture similar to contemporaries on the Korean
                            Penninsula (Yayoi) and the Jomon culture appears to extend from Hokkaido
                            to the main island of Okinawa (1). Imamura charts the history of Hokkaido
                            as continuing the Jomon culture (identified by its rope-marked pottery)
                            into the 'Yayoi Period' as the Epi-Jomon culture. In the 7th century
                            (CE?) Imamura writes that the Epi-Jomon evolved into the Satsumon, or
                            burshed pattern, culture (made by scraping the surface with a wooden
                            board). They go through a 'kofun' period that appears to be the tail end
                            of the kofun period on Honshu.

                            Meanwhile, between the 7th and 10th centuries, on the northeast side, you
                            apparently have the Okhotsk culture spreading with iron, bone, stone, and
                            antler tools, with sites on the coast--this culture probably came from
                            Skhalin.

                            A mix of Okhotsk and Satsumon appears to have created a hybrid culture
                            called the Tobinitai, which fades out around the 13th C. Imamura believes
                            that, "although the Okhotsk cannot have been the major progenitor of Ainu
                            culture, it is possible that the prominent worship of the bear in Okhotsk
                            culture passed down to the Ainu (Wanatabe 1974)."

                            Satsumon culture also appears to have drifted southwards, back to the
                            Tohoku region somewhat.

                            Things then seem to get sticky--Satsumon is an archaeological definition,
                            but the culture appears to have raised up their pit houses above ground,
                            leaving fewer traces, and pottery changed into ceramic pans. Ainu
                            culture, rather than being archaeological, is an ethnological definition.
                            The best archaeological evidence appears to actually come from elaborately
                            carved harpoons.

                            Not sure if any of that helps.

                            -Ii

                            1. Prehistoric Japan; Keiji Imamura.
                          • Solveig
                            Ii Dono! I am very much in the camp that believes in early Ainu arrival. However, this whole business about the identify of Jomon man is highly political. This
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jul 17 8:36 AM
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                              Ii Dono!

                              I am very much in the camp that believes in early Ainu arrival. However,
                              this whole business about the identify of Jomon man is highly political.
                              This is one of the reasons that the Ainu are ethnographically defined.
                              The really political question is who has continuity to Jomon man? The
                              Japanese governmen has in recent times been politically involved with
                              this issue and has come out in favour of indigenous origin of the
                              Japanese. In particular, Nakasone tended to do this back in the 80's.
                              I rather suspect that what really happened is an indigenous population
                              of proto-Ainu being invaded by two immigrant groups one continental in
                              origin and the other Polynesian in origin with the Polynesians arriving
                              before the continentals. The Polynesians contribute the C-V sound
                              system of old Japanese and some fishing technology while the continentals
                              contribute syntax, government, and agrarian technology. Of all of this,
                              the only immigrant group which is actually documented is the continental
                              immigrants. Continental immigration continued into the historical epoc.
                              --

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar

                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                              | the trash by my email filters. |
                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            • Deborah K. Strub
                              And to add more confusion to the topic, I read an article in the newspaper a year or two ago that stated that the Richland man was believed to be of Ainu
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jul 17 5:35 PM
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                                And to add more confusion to the topic, I read an article in the newspaper
                                a year or two ago that stated that the Richland man was believed to be of
                                Ainu stock. If memory serves me correctly this was a 6,000 year old
                                mummy/remains that was found in the Richland area of Washington State.
                                I've always thought the Pacific NW Indian design motifs look a lot like
                                many Ainu motifs I've seen.

                                Considering the Japanese attitude towards the Ainu for so many hundreds of
                                years I'm not surprised they found evidence supporting their view of the
                                Japanese (and not the Ainu) were there first.

                                YIS,

                                Tsuruko

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Solveig [mailto:nostrand@...]
                                Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 7:37 AM
                                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [SCA-JML] More questions!


                                Ii Dono!

                                I am very much in the camp that believes in early Ainu arrival. However,
                                this whole business about the identify of Jomon man is highly political.
                                This is one of the reasons that the Ainu are ethnographically defined.
                                The really political question is who has continuity to Jomon man? The
                                Japanese governmen has in recent times been politically involved with
                                this issue and has come out in favour of indigenous origin of the
                                Japanese. In particular, Nakasone tended to do this back in the 80's.
                                I rather suspect that what really happened is an indigenous population
                                of proto-Ainu being invaded by two immigrant groups one continental in
                                origin and the other Polynesian in origin with the Polynesians arriving
                                before the continentals. The Polynesians contribute the C-V sound
                                system of old Japanese and some fishing technology while the continentals
                                contribute syntax, government, and agrarian technology. Of all of this,
                                the only immigrant group which is actually documented is the continental
                                immigrants. Continental immigration continued into the historical epoc.
                                --

                                Your Humble Servant
                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                Amateur Scholar

                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                | the trash by my email filters. |
                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


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                              • Solveig
                                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! That was Kennewick man. Being from Richland myself, I am happy to take credit for Richland, but I am pretty sure that the
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jul 17 6:21 PM
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                                  Noble Cousin!

                                  Greetings from Solveig! That was Kennewick man. Being from Richland myself,
                                  I am happy to take credit for Richland, but I am pretty sure that the
                                  skeleton was found while watching the hydroplane races from Columbia
                                  Park. Columbia Park is a county park, but I am pretty sure that it is
                                  in Kennewick's city limits and not in Richland's city limits as it is
                                  downhill from the Kennewick highlands. As for the Umatilla claims on
                                  Kennewick man. Stuff and nonsense. Bodies do not float fifty miles
                                  up-river. Especially if the river is the Columbia river which routinely
                                  clears its throat each Spring.
                                  --

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar

                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                • Alcyoneus
                                  I was looking at this book at B&N today ( http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2TKKCMDJ07&isbn=0060199237&itm=1 ), No Bone
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jul 18 3:58 PM
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                                    I was looking at this book at B&N today (
                                    http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2TKKCMDJ07&isbn=0060199237&itm=1
                                    ), No Bone Unturned: The Adventures of the Smithsonian's Top Forensic
                                    Scientist and the Legal Battle for America's Oldest Skeletons
                                    Jeff Benedict . This discusses Kennewick man and the legal games about
                                    him. It is a very good section of the book. He very definitely identifies
                                    it with Ainu or perhaps Polynesian rather than NA. The Department of the
                                    Interior's statement in court that they would forgoe further testing if the
                                    right answer was arrived at the first time was quite amusing. (Jeff also
                                    positively ID'd David Koresh).

                                    I'm not sure that I understand part of your statement. Are you saying that
                                    the Umatilla couldn't have moved 50 miles it 10k years?

                                    Alcyoneus

                                    At 09:21 PM 7/17/2003 -0400, you wrote:
                                    >Noble Cousin!
                                    >
                                    >Greetings from Solveig! That was Kennewick man. Being from Richland myself,
                                    >I am happy to take credit for Richland, but I am pretty sure that the
                                    >skeleton was found while watching the hydroplane races from Columbia
                                    >Park. Columbia Park is a county park, but I am pretty sure that it is
                                    >in Kennewick's city limits and not in Richland's city limits as it is
                                    >downhill from the Kennewick highlands. As for the Umatilla claims on
                                    >Kennewick Man. Stuff and nonsense. Bodies do not float fifty miles
                                    >up-river. Especially if the river is the Columbia river which routinely
                                    >clears its throat each Spring.
                                    >--
                                    >
                                    > Your Humble Servant
                                    > Solveig Throndardottir
                                    > Amateur Scholar
                                    >
                                    >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    >| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                    >| deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Solveig
                                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! As I recall, the Umatillas claim to have always been where they currently are, which is downstream from Kennewick Man.
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jul 18 9:44 PM
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                                      Noble Cousin!

                                      Greetings from Solveig! As I recall, the Umatillas claim to have always been
                                      where they currently are, which is downstream from Kennewick Man. So their
                                      claim is poppycock. Of course, in real life the Umatillas moved around like
                                      everyone else. Linguistic distribution charts suggest that they arrived much
                                      more recently than Kennewick man. The point is, the Umatillas do not have a
                                      good claim on Kennewick man. The Wannapums are at least upriver from the
                                      site.
                                      --

                                      Your Humble Servant
                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Amateur Scholar

                                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                      | the trash by my email filters. |
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