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Re: My Mon, can it get passed?

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  • Jason Silver
    Greetings again Sir Koredono ... local ... process ... months, ... I thank you for this.. I can only hope that the process goes smoothly.. ... pass ... former
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 8, 2003
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      Greetings again Sir Koredono

      > Well, when I got around to submitting, I was assured (by said
      local
      > heralds who became our kingdom submissions heralds) that the
      process
      > had gotten better, and more streamlined, and should take 6 - 9
      months,
      > barring any problem with my submission. I don't know what (if
      > anything) you may have been told in that regard, so I thought you
      > should be informed as to the *real* processing time range.

      I thank you for this.. I can only hope that the process goes
      smoothly..

      > Yeah, I'd been using my mon for about 10 years, and told it should
      pass
      > with no problems from heralds at all levels of the society (a
      former
      > Laurel Queen of Arms is in my local group); it was only the
      > documentation of my name which caused the delay, and I got badgered
      to
      > finally submit about 2 years after I'd gotten all of my name
      > information taken care of.

      Isn't it funny how that goes? In talking to a friend of mine from
      another Kingdom, he was telling me that one of the local fighters
      became king, it was interesting to watch he said because as he did
      become king, those around him scrambled and before the end of his
      term they had the device and his name registered.. Funny how that
      goes! LOL Hmm, Wonder what it would be like to be in that seat...
      Naa, I have enough to deal with my young daughter :)

      > Well, Solveig's in this list, maybe she can help you; I have a copy
      of
      > her book, but I know she understands such things much better than I.
      >
      > > Maybe we can do a quick run down, Persona, 4th son of the family,
      born
      > > in 1432 and sent abroad to learn and become a great leader.
      > > Name : Takeda Imakawa Shirou Yoshitaka, now in recent chats with
      a
      > > friend he told me that I would not formally announce that I am
      apart
      > > of the Takeda Clan, and as such it should be Imakawa Shirou
      Yoshitaka,
      > > but he believed it should be Imakawa Shirou no Yoshitaka..
      >
      > Well, that *sounds* pretty good to me, but I'm sure that Solveig
      (and
      > Effingham) will have a far more informed opinion than I, and will
      > probably will share it with you.

      I do hope, but if not, that is ok, I am working on getting all my
      books together to make a good stab at it and get it done..

      > What an excellent motivation! I was lucky, having been originally
      > squired to a European knight who already had a Japanese squire,
      and
      > then transferred to the head of the largest Japanese household in
      the
      > SCA (Sir Ogami Akira, of Clan Yama Kaminari), as well as
      apprenticed to
      > a Laurel, who, while primarily interested in Italian Renaissance
      > costuming, had done a good bit of research and interest in
      Japanese
      > costuming as well.

      I think I must ask, are you apart of Clan Yama Kaminari? If you are I
      have looked at your web site many times and dearly love it! I have a
      real love for the encampment you have all built, if I could ask,
      maybe you could post some pictures of that encampment here as a
      inspiration for the rest of us to make bigger and better
      encampments..

      Also, if you are apart of the group, I need to ask, the hats that I
      see many of the guys wearing, what are those called and where do you
      get them? I have your basic conical style but don't really feel that
      it fits me or my look so well.. In truth I would love another style
      of hat (don't know the correct name for it), but it is the style that
      goes completely over your head only leaving a small window in front
      that looks like a bunch of bamboo bars (in theory, hiding the face)..
      Just seems more my style LOL.. (better to hide me then see me I think
      LOL)

      > I know that in many areas, Japanese (or even all non-mainline
      Western
      > European) personae are given trouble - I've heard many a story of
      > people who wanted Japanese personae, but were told by the
      > 'knowledgeable old-timers' in their group that such was 'not
      allowed'
      > in the SCA. So, the best answer really is to just be a good
      example,
      > an informed source of information, and role model for other new
      people.

      I know when I first joined the SCA and started talking to people and
      they asked about my persona and I mentioned Japanese, I really got a
      lot of negative feed back.. After a year a found that a lot of those
      who had given me that feed back had left the SCA for it was not what
      they wanted, and those that had supported me in it where still
      around.. To this day, those that DID support the idea are still
      around and I am very happy to see that..

      Jason
      Imakawa Shirou no Yoshitaka
    • Donald J. Luby
      ... Well, if your mon is well-designed, and has no conflicts, it shouldn t have any bumps along the road. ... I wondered how they managed that - from what I d
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 8, 2003
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        On Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 12:28 AM, Jason Silver wrote:

        > Greetings again Sir Koredono
        >
        >> Well, when I got around to submitting, I was assured (by said local
        >> heralds who became our kingdom submissions heralds) that the process
        >> had gotten better, and more streamlined, and should take 6 - 9 months,
        >> barring any problem with my submission. I don't know what (if
        >> anything) you may have been told in that regard, so I thought you
        >> should be informed as to the *real* processing time range.
        >
        > I thank you for this.. I can only hope that the process goes smoothly..

        Well, if your mon is well-designed, and has no conflicts, it shouldn't
        have any bumps along the road.

        >> Yeah, I'd been using my mon for about 10 years, and told it should
        >> pass
        >> with no problems from heralds at all levels of the society (a former
        >> Laurel Queen of Arms is in my local group); it was only the
        >> documentation of my name which caused the delay, and I got badgered to
        >> finally submit about 2 years after I'd gotten all of my name
        >> information taken care of.
        >
        > Isn't it funny how that goes? In talking to a friend of mine from
        > another Kingdom, he was telling me that one of the local fighters
        > became king, it was interesting to watch he said because as he did
        > become king, those around him scrambled and before the end of his
        > term they had the device and his name registered..

        I wondered how they managed that - from what I'd been told, the biggest
        hold up recently (past two years or so) has been at the Laurel level;
        as an example, they sat on the results of the meeting where my mon and
        name were decided on for 4 months before telling *anyone* the results
        of that meeting, and I have no idea whether that's gotten any better.
        So while they may have rushed to get it through *internally*, the
        external process they have little to no control over.

        > Funny how that goes! LOL Hmm, Wonder what it would be like to be in
        > that seat...
        > Naa, I have enough to deal with my young daughter :)

        Wise decision, IMO.

        >> Well, Solveig's in this list, maybe she can help you; I have a copy of
        >> her book, but I know she understands such things much better than I.
        >>
        >>> Maybe we can do a quick run down, Persona, 4th son of the family,
        >>> born
        >>> in 1432 and sent abroad to learn and become a great leader.
        >>> Name : Takeda Imakawa Shirou Yoshitaka, now in recent chats with a
        >>> friend he told me that I would not formally announce that I am apart
        >>> of the Takeda Clan, and as such it should be Imakawa Shirou
        >>> Yoshitaka,
        >>> but he believed it should be Imakawa Shirou no Yoshitaka..
        >>
        >> Well, that *sounds* pretty good to me, but I'm sure that Solveig (and
        >> Effingham) will have a far more informed opinion than I, and will
        >> probably will share it with you.
        >
        > I do hope, but if not, that is ok, I am working on getting all my
        > books together to make a good stab at it and get it done..

        Good luck.

        >> What an excellent motivation! I was lucky, having been originally
        >> squired to a European knight who already had a Japanese squire, and
        >> then transferred to the head of the largest Japanese household in the
        >> SCA (Sir Ogami Akira, of Clan Yama Kaminari), as well as apprenticed
        >> to
        >> a Laurel, who, while primarily interested in Italian Renaissance
        >> costuming, had done a good bit of research and interest in Japanese
        >> costuming as well.
        >
        > I think I must ask, are you apart of Clan Yama Kaminari?

        Yes, I am (it even says so in my .sig), and have been for many (11?
        12?) years, ever since my first knight left the SCA and transferred me
        to a more active knight before he was gone for good.

        > If you are I have looked at your web site many times and dearly love
        > it!

        I will pass that along to our hatamoto - she maintains the site, as
        well as does all of our clan paperwork and bookkeeping (including being
        our Pennsic land agent). We all chip in with submissions of various
        sorts to the site, as fits our own knowledge and interest, but she
        rides herd on all of us!

        > I have a real love for the encampment you have all built, if I could
        > ask,
        > maybe you could post some pictures of that encampment here as a
        > inspiration for the rest of us to make bigger and better
        > encampments..

        Well, we have pics of it on the site (www.nb.net/~kmeg/kaminari), will
        probably have more after Pennsic; I wouldn't want to suck up bandwidth
        by posting images to the group, though.

        > Also, if you are apart of the group, I need to ask, the hats that I
        > see many of the guys wearing, what are those called and where do you
        > get them?

        If you mean the rounded ones, that look like an inverted fruit bowl,
        I'm afraid I can't really help you. One of my former squire brothers,
        when he was stationed in Japan in the Navy, went to a specialty store
        to acquire them. He has since, some years ago, been transferred back
        to the states, so our source is gone.

        > I have your basic conical style but don't really feel that
        > it fits me or my look so well.. In truth I would love another style
        > of hat (don't know the correct name for it), but it is the style that
        > goes completely over your head only leaving a small window in front
        > that looks like a bunch of bamboo bars (in theory, hiding the face)..
        > Just seems more my style LOL.. (better to hide me then see me I think
        > LOL)

        I would enjoy one of those myself, but I suspect that'd be even harder
        to find than we ones we got.

        >> I know that in many areas, Japanese (or even all non-mainline Western
        >> European) personae are given trouble - I've heard many a story of
        >> people who wanted Japanese personae, but were told by the
        >> 'knowledgeable old-timers' in their group that such was 'not allowed'
        >> in the SCA. So, the best answer really is to just be a good example,
        >> an informed source of information, and role model for other new
        >> people.
        >
        > I know when I first joined the SCA and started talking to people and
        > they asked about my persona and I mentioned Japanese, I really got a
        > lot of negative feed back.. After a year a found that a lot of those
        > who had given me that feed back had left the SCA for it was not what
        > they wanted, and those that had supported me in it where still
        > around.. To this day, those that DID support the idea are still
        > around and I am very happy to see that..

        Well, that is very lucky for you; believe me, not everyone is so
        fortunate. I know that no-one local to me when I was joining really
        had any issues (that they brought up to me) about my persona choice,
        but I live in a pretty mellow and liberal group; there's a lot of
        serious research and authenticity that goes on here, but by and large
        we don't rain on each others' parades if it just happens to not suit
        our personal preferences (so long as it's not *completely* ridiculous,
        like elves, vampires, and other fantasy creatures).

        > Jason
        > Imakawa Shirou no Yoshitaka
        >


        Sir Koredono

        ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        -------
        Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
        Koredono, KSCA
        djl@...
        Yama-kaminari-ryu
        Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands,
        AEthelmearc
      • Steve Gill
        ... You can get them from Japan - http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/warring5.htm - not cheap but very nice. The hat you re describing sounds like the
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 9, 2003
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          Donald J. Luby wrote:
          >
          > On Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 12:28 AM, Jason Silver wrote:
          >
          > > Greetings again Sir Koredono
          > >
          ... snip ...
          >
          > > Also, if you are apart of the group, I need to ask, the hats that I
          > > see many of the guys wearing, what are those called and where do you
          > > get them?
          >
          > If you mean the rounded ones, that look like an inverted fruit bowl,
          > I'm afraid I can't really help you. One of my former squire brothers,
          > when he was stationed in Japan in the Navy, went to a specialty store
          > to acquire them. He has since, some years ago, been transferred back
          > to the states, so our source is gone.
          >
          > > I have your basic conical style but don't really feel that
          > > it fits me or my look so well.. In truth I would love another style
          > > of hat (don't know the correct name for it), but it is the style that
          > > goes completely over your head only leaving a small window in front
          > > that looks like a bunch of bamboo bars (in theory, hiding the face)..
          > > Just seems more my style LOL.. (better to hide me then see me I think
          > > LOL)
          >
          > I would enjoy one of those myself, but I suspect that'd be even harder
          > to find than we ones we got.
          >

          You can get them from Japan -
          http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/warring5.htm - not cheap but very
          nice. The hat you're describing sounds like the 'Ronin gasa'. I haven't seen
          one of these yet, but have the 'Takuhatsu gasa' and the quality is pretty
          good. The cheaper hats don't have quite the same build quality.

          And yes, the 'Takuhatsu gasa' constantly gets referred to as 'the fruit
          bowl'.

          ... snip again ...


          ---
          Steve Gill
          Steve@...
          http://www.caws.demon.co.uk/
          http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lion_azure/

          This message has been checked for all known viruses by Norton AntiVirus
          2002.
        • Donald J. Luby
          ... Actually, it looks like we have Sando gasa , but the shape isn t all that different. Thanks for the info, BTW; now I know where we could get more. OTOH,
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 9, 2003
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            On Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 05:42 AM, Steve Gill wrote:

            > You can get them from Japan -
            > http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/warring5.htm - not cheap but
            > very
            > nice. The hat you're describing sounds like the 'Ronin gasa'. I
            > haven't seen
            > one of these yet, but have the 'Takuhatsu gasa' and the quality is
            > pretty
            > good. The cheaper hats don't have quite the same build quality.
            >
            > And yes, the 'Takuhatsu gasa' constantly gets referred to as 'the fruit
            > bowl'.

            Actually, it looks like we have "Sando gasa", but the shape isn't all
            that different. Thanks for the info, BTW; now I know where we could
            get more. OTOH, the seem to be charging about triple what we got them
            from in Japan; I guess everyone has whatever markup they think they cna
            get away with.

            > ---
            > Steve Gill
            > Steve@...
            > http://www.caws.demon.co.uk/
            > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lion_azure/

            Koredono
          • Solveig
            Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... As i recall, holding names are only created at laurel level. This means that your name has to make it past kingdom
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 11, 2003
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              Noble Cousins!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              >Also, you cannot submit a device without submitting a name (though you
              >can submit a name, and if it passes, you can later submit a device for
              >it), so unless you've got your name documentation all good to go, you
              >should probably take care of that soon too; if the name bounces and the
              >mon passes, they'll assign you a 'holding name' (usually something like
              >"[your mundane or SCA first name] of [the name of the SCA group you
              >live in]", which is what your mon will be registered to, until you
              >submit a name which passes.

              As i recall, "holding names" are only created at laurel level. This means
              that your name has to make it past kingdom level, or everything gets sent
              back to you.
              --

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
              | the trash by my email filters. |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            • Solveig
              Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! We should understand that the late sixteenth century military groups were distinct from the uji which did persist in at
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 12, 2003
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                Noble Cousins!

                Greetings from Solveig! We should understand that the late sixteenth
                century military groups were distinct from the uji which did persist
                in at least some circles until after the Meiji Restoration in the
                nineteenth century. In terms of name formation, these uji are imporant,
                but the military groups of the sixteenth century generally are not.
                This is because the mlitary groups were, according to Mass, territory
                based rather than kinship based.

                Regardless, the uji as distinct from the family does show up in
                documents. Since the uji often carry the kabane titles you are
                not so likely to pass over them when you are getting into high
                gear about announcing yourself and your impressive lineage.
                However, actual practice can only be deduced from reading Monogatari
                dating from about the time period that you are interested in.

                So for example, Takeda Shingen claimed descent from the Seiwa Genji
                and therefor from Seiwa Ten'nou. What you should expect is for the
                Genji to posess the cadet branch which in turn might posess a
                specific family and then on to a specific individual who first is
                mentioned by their structural relationship and then by their
                individual name. Here is an example taken from a more or less
                contemporaneous illustration:

                Takeda Daizen no Daibu Harunobu Nyuudou Shingen

                In this case we are not seeing the Genji being mentioned although
                we do see them being mentioned in 19th century documents with
                notations such as Minamoto no Asomi. Here is a specific example
                from Heike Monogatari.

                Daijou Daijin Taira no Asson Kiyomori Kou

                GOOD GRIEF IT IS A TYPO! GRUMBLE! GRUMBLE! GRUMBLE! That is supposed
                to be Ason not Asson. GRUMBLE! And, I just got to the point where
                fixing things costs money.

                Daijou Daijin is a an office, Taira is an Uji, ... <I think that
                I will quitely go off somewhere and cry or something.>


                The wandering -no- is at best a bit elusive. This is especially true
                as they generally only appear as glosses and not in the main text.
                However, at least some of the names in Heike Monogatari follow the
                form of <uji> no <tsuushou> <nanori> which puts the -no- in a rather
                differnt place than you are putting it. The placemet which I am
                suggesting makes a bit more sense if you think about the function
                of the name elementand their possible origin. I currently believe
                that -<suffix> names are generally associated with <uji> and are
                "posessed" by the <uji> and that <nanori> originated as an imitation
                of Chinese given names begining around 645 CE.

                Incidentally, I just sent NCMJ to the printer a couple of hours ago.
                I should be receiving a proof early next week, and if the printer
                smiles kindly upon us, it will be available at Pennsic. This will
                be a "Revised" editition rather than a "Second" edition. There are
                a number of specific reasons for this, but I am too tired at the
                moment to go over them in detail.


                >Well, that *sounds* pretty good to me, but I'm sure that Solveig
                >(and Effingham) will have a far more informed opinion than I, and
                >will probably will share it with you.
                >
                >> At present I am using the last.. I do plan on reordering the book
                >>that done by Solveig Throndardottir as I believe that as one of
                >>the few japanese persona's in our area I need to try to help
                >>others who come along after me,
                >
                >What an excellent motivation! I was lucky, having been originally
                >squired to a European knight who already had a Japanese squire, and
                >then transferred to the head of the largest Japanese household in
                >the SCA (Sir Ogami Akira, of Clan Yama Kaminari), as well as
                >apprenticed to a Laurel, who, while primarily interested in Italian
                >Rennaisance costuming, had done a good bit of research and interest
                >in Japanese costuming as well.
                >I know that in many areas, Japanese (or even all non-mainline
                >Western European) personae are given trouble - I've heard many a
                >story of people who wanted Japanese personae, but were told by the
                >'knowledgeable old-timers' in their group that such was 'not
                >allowed' in the SCA. So, the best answer really is to just be a
                >good example, an informed source of information, and role model for
                >other new people.
                >
                >> that and I loved some of the information contained with in the book.
                >>
                >> Well, thats about it for now, need to go to work..
                >> Jason
                >> SCA : Imakawa Shirou no Yoshitaka
                >
                >
                >
                > Sir Koredono
                >
                >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >-------
                >Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
                >Koredono, KSCA
                >djl@...
                >Yama-kaminari-ryu
                >Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands,
                >AEthelmearc
                >
                >
                >
                >UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


                --
                +----------------------------------+-----------------------------------+
                | Dr. Barbara Nostrand | Department of Computer Science |
                | Assistant Professor | SUNY College at Potsdam |
                | (315) 267-2216 | Potsdam, New York 13676 |
                +----------------------------------+-----------------------------------+
                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                | the trash by my email filters. |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                --

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                | the trash by my email filters. |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              • Dean Wayland
                Dear Donald, Further to Steve Gill s reply regarding Kasa (hats) from shop-japan at: http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/warring5.htm - not cheap When we
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 19, 2003
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                  Dear Donald,

                  Further to Steve Gill's reply regarding Kasa (hats) from shop-japan at:
                  http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/warring5.htm - not cheap

                  When we got our first order from them last month we found that some of
                  the cheaper hats have a plastic frame as part of their construction,
                  which gives them a flat apex, and can be seen at the centre on the
                  inside only. Steve's "Takuhatsu gasa" was the only one without this
                  feature. I have the Sando-gasa which has a flattish top to it, and so it
                  doesn't look too bad, and once I have covered the plastic with Washi
                  (Japanese paper), installed the Atamadai (a ring with loops for wearing
                  the Kasa), and finally putting in the cloth pad normally worn, you'll
                  never know its there.

                  As we try to avoid modern materials in kit construction, I wrote to
                  shop-japan and asked which other models don't have plastic frames. I
                  have just received their reply and I thought you might find it useful.
                  Apart from the Takuhatsu gasa the only one devoid of plastic is the
                  Ronin gasa, so that's what we're getting next, along with some more
                  Waraji (straw sandals).

                  If you manage to find anyone out there doing them cheaper let us know.

                  Yours

                  Dean
                  Dean Wayland
                  Head Of The Fight School
                  http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk
                • Anthony J. Bryant
                  ... Thanks, this is good to know! Effingham PS: Tell herself I said hi!
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 19, 2003
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                    Dean Wayland wrote:

                    >
                    > As we try to avoid modern materials in kit construction, I wrote to
                    > shop-japan and asked which other models don't have plastic frames. I
                    > have just received their reply and I thought you might find it useful.
                    > Apart from the Takuhatsu gasa the only one devoid of plastic is the
                    > Ronin gasa, so that's what we're getting next, along with some more
                    > Waraji (straw sandals).

                    Thanks, this is good to know!

                    Effingham

                    PS: Tell herself I said "hi!"
                  • Dean Wayland
                    ... No problem ... Willco:-) Dean Wayland Head Of The Fight School http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 22, 2003
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                      > Thanks, this is good to know!

                      No problem

                      > Effingham
                      >
                      > PS: Tell herself I said "hi!"

                      Willco:-)
                      Dean Wayland
                      Head Of The Fight School
                      http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk
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