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My Mon, can it get passed?

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  • Jason Silver
    Greetings.. Another lurker steps from the shadows.. I am wondering if there is any here that might be able to help me.. I am getting things ready to get back
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 7, 2003
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      Greetings..

      Another lurker steps from the shadows..

      I am wondering if there is any here that might be able to help me.. I
      am getting things ready to get back to playing the SCA and would like
      to register my mon so that when I enter the crown tourny it will be
      ok..

      I am working on getting it scaned in and colored. I could post it to
      the web site or email it to some one if they could help.. I really
      dont know much about the heraldry thing, just give me a sword and I
      shall take the blows for you, ask me about heraldy and I'll hide
      behind you :)

      Jason
    • Donald J. Luby
      ... Well, assuming that you can get it on the web (maybe in a spot on the JML Yahoo page, either in the Files or Photos folders), I m sure you ll get many
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 7, 2003
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        On Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 12:14 AM, Jason Silver wrote:

        > Greetings..
        >
        > Another lurker steps from the shadows..
        >
        > I am wondering if there is any here that might be able to help me.. I
        > am getting things ready to get back to playing the SCA and would like
        > to register my mon so that when I enter the crown tourny it will be
        > ok..
        >
        > I am working on getting it scaned in and colored. I could post it to
        > the web site or email it to some one if they could help.. I really
        > dont know much about the heraldry thing, just give me a sword and I
        > shall take the blows for you, ask me about heraldy and I'll hide
        > behind you :)

        Well, assuming that you can get it on the web (maybe in a spot on the
        JML Yahoo page, either in the Files or Photos folders), I'm sure you'll
        get many people willing to lend their opinions.
        The biggest issue with getting mon registered these days is that you
        have to make it acceptable under the European rules of heraldry; this
        means that a number of traditional Japanese mon design styles and
        charges are not allowed. But, there are ways to submit things that
        'sound' European but can *look* Japanese, which is what's important,
        really. For example, you could submit a mon with a helmet on it, and
        while the European heralds might assume you meant a bascinet, or a
        great helm, or some such, you could just as easily choose to display it
        as a kabuto. Likewise, my mon has lozenges on it, which in European
        heraldry are usually tall and thin, but mine are short and wide, as
        befits the Japanese style.

        Just one more caveat - I hope you're not expecting a very quick
        turnaround time on getting your mon registered. Mine was considered a
        model of what a device submission should be, with no rejections or
        'unusual' delays, and it took 14 months from when I submitted it to a
        local herald (my retainer, who shortly thereafter became our kingdom's
        submissions herald) to when I received notification that it had passed
        (which was only a few hours after our kingdom heralds were told). So,
        barring any problems with it, expect it to take a year (or more);
        things have gotten a little faster (or so I'm told), but even at their
        absolute theoretical best, it can't take any less than 9 months, I
        believe.
        Also, you cannot submit a device without submitting a name (though you
        can submit a name, and if it passes, you can later submit a device for
        it), so unless you've got your name documentation all good to go, you
        should probably take care of that soon too; if the name bounces and the
        mon passes, they'll assign you a 'holding name' (usually something like
        "[your mundane or SCA first name] of [the name of the SCA group you
        live in]", which is what your mon will be registered to, until you
        submit a name which passes.

        > Jason



        Sir Koredono

        ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        -------
        Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
        Koredono, KSCA
        djl@...
        Yama-kaminari-ryu
        Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands,
        AEthelmearc
      • Tim McShane
        Take a look at; http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/mons/ To see a complete copy of the College of Arms Rules for Submissions mentioned in the text, see;
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 7, 2003
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          Take a look at;
          http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/mons/

          To see a complete copy of the College of Arms' Rules for Submissions mentioned in the text, see;
          http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/rfs.html
          or talk to your local herald about how to make your design acceptable to the College of Arms.

          - Shiro
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Jason Silver
          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: July 7, 2003 10:14 PM
          Subject: [SCA-JML] My Mon, can it get passed?


          Greetings..

          Another lurker steps from the shadows..

          I am wondering if there is any here that might be able to help me.. I
          am getting things ready to get back to playing the SCA and would like
          to register my mon so that when I enter the crown tourny it will be
          ok..

          I am working on getting it scaned in and colored. I could post it to
          the web site or email it to some one if they could help.. I really
          dont know much about the heraldry thing, just give me a sword and I
          shall take the blows for you, ask me about heraldy and I'll hide
          behind you :)

          Jason



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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jason Silver
          Greetings Sir Koredono I am sure I can get it scanned in, colored and posted, that should not be a problem.. As for the amount of time it takes, that does
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 8, 2003
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            Greetings Sir Koredono

            I am sure I can get it scanned in, colored and posted, that should
            not be a problem.. As for the amount of time it takes, that does
            surprise me LOL! Although, it shouldnt! LOL.. Well, I have had the
            design for about 8 years now and have never gotten around to getting
            it done, so I guess 14 months even still would not be to bad..

            As for the name portion.. Well, that part is not so good.. I do have
            a name that I have been going by, I believe I have researched it some
            what, but alas, with out the book that I originally used (lost due to
            a flood) I can not confirm I did it correctly. I used the book done
            by Solveig Throndardottir, but at the time I was younger and didnt
            understand japanese and history as well as I do today..

            Maybe we can do a quick run down, Persona, 4th son of the family,
            born in 1432 and sent abroad to learn and become a great leader.
            Name : Takeda Imakawa Shirou Yoshitaka, now in recent chats with a
            friend he told me that I would not formally announce that I am apart
            of the Takeda Clan, and as such it should be Imakawa Shirou
            Yoshitaka, but he believed it should be Imakawa Shirou no Yoshitaka..
            At present I am using the last.. I do plan on reordering the book
            that done by Solveig Throndardottir as I believe that as one of the
            few japanese persona's in our area I need to try to help others who
            come along after me, that and I loved some of the information
            contained with in the book.

            Well, thats about it for now, need to go to work..
            Jason
            SCA : Imakawa Shirou no Yoshitaka

            > On Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 12:14 AM, Jason Silver wrote:
            >
            > > Greetings..
            > >
            > > Another lurker steps from the shadows..
            <SNIP>


            > Well, assuming that you can get it on the web (maybe in a spot on
            the
            > JML Yahoo page, either in the Files or Photos folders), I'm sure
            you'll
            > get many people willing to lend their opinions.
            > The biggest issue with getting mon registered these days is that
            you
            > have to make it acceptable under the European rules of heraldry;
            this
            > means that a number of traditional Japanese mon design styles and
            > charges are not allowed. But, there are ways to submit things
            that
            > 'sound' European but can *look* Japanese, which is what's
            important,
            > really. For example, you could submit a mon with a helmet on it,
            and
            > while the European heralds might assume you meant a bascinet, or a
            > great helm, or some such, you could just as easily choose to
            display it
            > as a kabuto. Likewise, my mon has lozenges on it, which in
            European
            > heraldry are usually tall and thin, but mine are short and wide,
            as
            > befits the Japanese style.
            >
            > Just one more caveat - I hope you're not expecting a very quick
            > turnaround time on getting your mon registered. Mine was
            considered a
            > model of what a device submission should be, with no rejections or
            > 'unusual' delays, and it took 14 months from when I submitted it to
            a
            > local herald (my retainer, who shortly thereafter became our
            kingdom's
            > submissions herald) to when I received notification that it had
            passed
            > (which was only a few hours after our kingdom heralds were told).
            So,
            > barring any problems with it, expect it to take a year (or more);
            > things have gotten a little faster (or so I'm told), but even at
            their
            > absolute theoretical best, it can't take any less than 9 months, I
            > believe.
            > Also, you cannot submit a device without submitting a name (though
            you
            > can submit a name, and if it passes, you can later submit a device
            for
            > it), so unless you've got your name documentation all good to go,
            you
            > should probably take care of that soon too; if the name bounces and
            the
            > mon passes, they'll assign you a 'holding name' (usually something
            like
            > "[your mundane or SCA first name] of [the name of the SCA group
            you
            > live in]", which is what your mon will be registered to, until you
            > submit a name which passes.
            >
            > > Jason
            >
            >
            >
            > Sir Koredono
            >
            > --------------------------------------------------------------------
            ----
            > -------
            > Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
            > Koredono, KSCA
            > djl@t...
            > Yama-kaminari-ryu
            > Pittsburgh, PA Debatable
            Lands,
            > AEthelmearc
          • Donald J. Luby
            ... Well, when I got around to submitting, I was assured (by said local heralds who became our kingdom submissions heralds) that the process had gotten better,
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 8, 2003
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              On Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 07:49 AM, Jason Silver wrote:

              > Greetings Sir Koredono
              >
              > I am sure I can get it scanned in, colored and posted, that should
              > not be a problem.. As for the amount of time it takes, that does
              > surprise me LOL! Although, it shouldnt! LOL..

              Well, when I got around to submitting, I was assured (by said local
              heralds who became our kingdom submissions heralds) that the process
              had gotten better, and more streamlined, and should take 6 - 9 months,
              barring any problem with my submission. I don't know what (if
              anything) you may have been told in that regard, so I thought you
              should be informed as to the *real* processing time range.

              > Well, I have had the design for about 8 years now and have never
              > gotten around to getting it done, so I guess 14 months even still
              > would not be to bad..

              Yeah, I'd been using my mon for about 10 years, and told it should pass
              with no problems from heralds at all levels of the society (a former
              Laurel Queen of Arms is in my local group); it was only the
              documentation of my name which caused the delay, and I got badgered to
              finally submit about 2 years after I'd gotten all of my name
              information taken care of.

              > As for the name portion.. Well, that part is not so good.. I do have a
              > name that I have been going by, I believe I have researched it some
              > what, but alas, with out the book that I originally used (lost due to
              > a flood) I can not confirm I did it correctly. I used the book done by
              > Solveig Throndardottir, but at the time I was younger and didnt
              > understand japanese and history as well as I do today..

              Well, Solveig's in this list, maybe she can help you; I have a copy of
              her book, but I know she understands such things much better than I.

              > Maybe we can do a quick run down, Persona, 4th son of the family, born
              > in 1432 and sent abroad to learn and become a great leader.
              > Name : Takeda Imakawa Shirou Yoshitaka, now in recent chats with a
              > friend he told me that I would not formally announce that I am apart
              > of the Takeda Clan, and as such it should be Imakawa Shirou Yoshitaka,
              > but he believed it should be Imakawa Shirou no Yoshitaka..

              Well, that *sounds* pretty good to me, but I'm sure that Solveig (and
              Effingham) will have a far more informed opinion than I, and will
              probably will share it with you.

              > At present I am using the last.. I do plan on reordering the book that
              > done by Solveig Throndardottir as I believe that as one of the few
              > japanese persona's in our area I need to try to help others who come
              > along after me,

              What an excellent motivation! I was lucky, having been originally
              squired to a European knight who already had a Japanese squire, and
              then transferred to the head of the largest Japanese household in the
              SCA (Sir Ogami Akira, of Clan Yama Kaminari), as well as apprenticed to
              a Laurel, who, while primarily interested in Italian Rennaisance
              costuming, had done a good bit of research and interest in Japanese
              costuming as well.
              I know that in many areas, Japanese (or even all non-mainline Western
              European) personae are given trouble - I've heard many a story of
              people who wanted Japanese personae, but were told by the
              'knowledgeable old-timers' in their group that such was 'not allowed'
              in the SCA. So, the best answer really is to just be a good example,
              an informed source of information, and role model for other new people.

              > that and I loved some of the information contained with in the book.
              >
              > Well, thats about it for now, need to go to work..
              > Jason
              > SCA : Imakawa Shirou no Yoshitaka



              Sir Koredono

              ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              -------
              Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
              Koredono, KSCA
              djl@...
              Yama-kaminari-ryu
              Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands,
              AEthelmearc
            • Jason Silver
              Greetings again Sir Koredono ... local ... process ... months, ... I thank you for this.. I can only hope that the process goes smoothly.. ... pass ... former
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 8, 2003
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                Greetings again Sir Koredono

                > Well, when I got around to submitting, I was assured (by said
                local
                > heralds who became our kingdom submissions heralds) that the
                process
                > had gotten better, and more streamlined, and should take 6 - 9
                months,
                > barring any problem with my submission. I don't know what (if
                > anything) you may have been told in that regard, so I thought you
                > should be informed as to the *real* processing time range.

                I thank you for this.. I can only hope that the process goes
                smoothly..

                > Yeah, I'd been using my mon for about 10 years, and told it should
                pass
                > with no problems from heralds at all levels of the society (a
                former
                > Laurel Queen of Arms is in my local group); it was only the
                > documentation of my name which caused the delay, and I got badgered
                to
                > finally submit about 2 years after I'd gotten all of my name
                > information taken care of.

                Isn't it funny how that goes? In talking to a friend of mine from
                another Kingdom, he was telling me that one of the local fighters
                became king, it was interesting to watch he said because as he did
                become king, those around him scrambled and before the end of his
                term they had the device and his name registered.. Funny how that
                goes! LOL Hmm, Wonder what it would be like to be in that seat...
                Naa, I have enough to deal with my young daughter :)

                > Well, Solveig's in this list, maybe she can help you; I have a copy
                of
                > her book, but I know she understands such things much better than I.
                >
                > > Maybe we can do a quick run down, Persona, 4th son of the family,
                born
                > > in 1432 and sent abroad to learn and become a great leader.
                > > Name : Takeda Imakawa Shirou Yoshitaka, now in recent chats with
                a
                > > friend he told me that I would not formally announce that I am
                apart
                > > of the Takeda Clan, and as such it should be Imakawa Shirou
                Yoshitaka,
                > > but he believed it should be Imakawa Shirou no Yoshitaka..
                >
                > Well, that *sounds* pretty good to me, but I'm sure that Solveig
                (and
                > Effingham) will have a far more informed opinion than I, and will
                > probably will share it with you.

                I do hope, but if not, that is ok, I am working on getting all my
                books together to make a good stab at it and get it done..

                > What an excellent motivation! I was lucky, having been originally
                > squired to a European knight who already had a Japanese squire,
                and
                > then transferred to the head of the largest Japanese household in
                the
                > SCA (Sir Ogami Akira, of Clan Yama Kaminari), as well as
                apprenticed to
                > a Laurel, who, while primarily interested in Italian Renaissance
                > costuming, had done a good bit of research and interest in
                Japanese
                > costuming as well.

                I think I must ask, are you apart of Clan Yama Kaminari? If you are I
                have looked at your web site many times and dearly love it! I have a
                real love for the encampment you have all built, if I could ask,
                maybe you could post some pictures of that encampment here as a
                inspiration for the rest of us to make bigger and better
                encampments..

                Also, if you are apart of the group, I need to ask, the hats that I
                see many of the guys wearing, what are those called and where do you
                get them? I have your basic conical style but don't really feel that
                it fits me or my look so well.. In truth I would love another style
                of hat (don't know the correct name for it), but it is the style that
                goes completely over your head only leaving a small window in front
                that looks like a bunch of bamboo bars (in theory, hiding the face)..
                Just seems more my style LOL.. (better to hide me then see me I think
                LOL)

                > I know that in many areas, Japanese (or even all non-mainline
                Western
                > European) personae are given trouble - I've heard many a story of
                > people who wanted Japanese personae, but were told by the
                > 'knowledgeable old-timers' in their group that such was 'not
                allowed'
                > in the SCA. So, the best answer really is to just be a good
                example,
                > an informed source of information, and role model for other new
                people.

                I know when I first joined the SCA and started talking to people and
                they asked about my persona and I mentioned Japanese, I really got a
                lot of negative feed back.. After a year a found that a lot of those
                who had given me that feed back had left the SCA for it was not what
                they wanted, and those that had supported me in it where still
                around.. To this day, those that DID support the idea are still
                around and I am very happy to see that..

                Jason
                Imakawa Shirou no Yoshitaka
              • Donald J. Luby
                ... Well, if your mon is well-designed, and has no conflicts, it shouldn t have any bumps along the road. ... I wondered how they managed that - from what I d
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 8, 2003
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                  On Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 12:28 AM, Jason Silver wrote:

                  > Greetings again Sir Koredono
                  >
                  >> Well, when I got around to submitting, I was assured (by said local
                  >> heralds who became our kingdom submissions heralds) that the process
                  >> had gotten better, and more streamlined, and should take 6 - 9 months,
                  >> barring any problem with my submission. I don't know what (if
                  >> anything) you may have been told in that regard, so I thought you
                  >> should be informed as to the *real* processing time range.
                  >
                  > I thank you for this.. I can only hope that the process goes smoothly..

                  Well, if your mon is well-designed, and has no conflicts, it shouldn't
                  have any bumps along the road.

                  >> Yeah, I'd been using my mon for about 10 years, and told it should
                  >> pass
                  >> with no problems from heralds at all levels of the society (a former
                  >> Laurel Queen of Arms is in my local group); it was only the
                  >> documentation of my name which caused the delay, and I got badgered to
                  >> finally submit about 2 years after I'd gotten all of my name
                  >> information taken care of.
                  >
                  > Isn't it funny how that goes? In talking to a friend of mine from
                  > another Kingdom, he was telling me that one of the local fighters
                  > became king, it was interesting to watch he said because as he did
                  > become king, those around him scrambled and before the end of his
                  > term they had the device and his name registered..

                  I wondered how they managed that - from what I'd been told, the biggest
                  hold up recently (past two years or so) has been at the Laurel level;
                  as an example, they sat on the results of the meeting where my mon and
                  name were decided on for 4 months before telling *anyone* the results
                  of that meeting, and I have no idea whether that's gotten any better.
                  So while they may have rushed to get it through *internally*, the
                  external process they have little to no control over.

                  > Funny how that goes! LOL Hmm, Wonder what it would be like to be in
                  > that seat...
                  > Naa, I have enough to deal with my young daughter :)

                  Wise decision, IMO.

                  >> Well, Solveig's in this list, maybe she can help you; I have a copy of
                  >> her book, but I know she understands such things much better than I.
                  >>
                  >>> Maybe we can do a quick run down, Persona, 4th son of the family,
                  >>> born
                  >>> in 1432 and sent abroad to learn and become a great leader.
                  >>> Name : Takeda Imakawa Shirou Yoshitaka, now in recent chats with a
                  >>> friend he told me that I would not formally announce that I am apart
                  >>> of the Takeda Clan, and as such it should be Imakawa Shirou
                  >>> Yoshitaka,
                  >>> but he believed it should be Imakawa Shirou no Yoshitaka..
                  >>
                  >> Well, that *sounds* pretty good to me, but I'm sure that Solveig (and
                  >> Effingham) will have a far more informed opinion than I, and will
                  >> probably will share it with you.
                  >
                  > I do hope, but if not, that is ok, I am working on getting all my
                  > books together to make a good stab at it and get it done..

                  Good luck.

                  >> What an excellent motivation! I was lucky, having been originally
                  >> squired to a European knight who already had a Japanese squire, and
                  >> then transferred to the head of the largest Japanese household in the
                  >> SCA (Sir Ogami Akira, of Clan Yama Kaminari), as well as apprenticed
                  >> to
                  >> a Laurel, who, while primarily interested in Italian Renaissance
                  >> costuming, had done a good bit of research and interest in Japanese
                  >> costuming as well.
                  >
                  > I think I must ask, are you apart of Clan Yama Kaminari?

                  Yes, I am (it even says so in my .sig), and have been for many (11?
                  12?) years, ever since my first knight left the SCA and transferred me
                  to a more active knight before he was gone for good.

                  > If you are I have looked at your web site many times and dearly love
                  > it!

                  I will pass that along to our hatamoto - she maintains the site, as
                  well as does all of our clan paperwork and bookkeeping (including being
                  our Pennsic land agent). We all chip in with submissions of various
                  sorts to the site, as fits our own knowledge and interest, but she
                  rides herd on all of us!

                  > I have a real love for the encampment you have all built, if I could
                  > ask,
                  > maybe you could post some pictures of that encampment here as a
                  > inspiration for the rest of us to make bigger and better
                  > encampments..

                  Well, we have pics of it on the site (www.nb.net/~kmeg/kaminari), will
                  probably have more after Pennsic; I wouldn't want to suck up bandwidth
                  by posting images to the group, though.

                  > Also, if you are apart of the group, I need to ask, the hats that I
                  > see many of the guys wearing, what are those called and where do you
                  > get them?

                  If you mean the rounded ones, that look like an inverted fruit bowl,
                  I'm afraid I can't really help you. One of my former squire brothers,
                  when he was stationed in Japan in the Navy, went to a specialty store
                  to acquire them. He has since, some years ago, been transferred back
                  to the states, so our source is gone.

                  > I have your basic conical style but don't really feel that
                  > it fits me or my look so well.. In truth I would love another style
                  > of hat (don't know the correct name for it), but it is the style that
                  > goes completely over your head only leaving a small window in front
                  > that looks like a bunch of bamboo bars (in theory, hiding the face)..
                  > Just seems more my style LOL.. (better to hide me then see me I think
                  > LOL)

                  I would enjoy one of those myself, but I suspect that'd be even harder
                  to find than we ones we got.

                  >> I know that in many areas, Japanese (or even all non-mainline Western
                  >> European) personae are given trouble - I've heard many a story of
                  >> people who wanted Japanese personae, but were told by the
                  >> 'knowledgeable old-timers' in their group that such was 'not allowed'
                  >> in the SCA. So, the best answer really is to just be a good example,
                  >> an informed source of information, and role model for other new
                  >> people.
                  >
                  > I know when I first joined the SCA and started talking to people and
                  > they asked about my persona and I mentioned Japanese, I really got a
                  > lot of negative feed back.. After a year a found that a lot of those
                  > who had given me that feed back had left the SCA for it was not what
                  > they wanted, and those that had supported me in it where still
                  > around.. To this day, those that DID support the idea are still
                  > around and I am very happy to see that..

                  Well, that is very lucky for you; believe me, not everyone is so
                  fortunate. I know that no-one local to me when I was joining really
                  had any issues (that they brought up to me) about my persona choice,
                  but I live in a pretty mellow and liberal group; there's a lot of
                  serious research and authenticity that goes on here, but by and large
                  we don't rain on each others' parades if it just happens to not suit
                  our personal preferences (so long as it's not *completely* ridiculous,
                  like elves, vampires, and other fantasy creatures).

                  > Jason
                  > Imakawa Shirou no Yoshitaka
                  >


                  Sir Koredono

                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  -------
                  Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
                  Koredono, KSCA
                  djl@...
                  Yama-kaminari-ryu
                  Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands,
                  AEthelmearc
                • Steve Gill
                  ... You can get them from Japan - http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/warring5.htm - not cheap but very nice. The hat you re describing sounds like the
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 9, 2003
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                    Donald J. Luby wrote:
                    >
                    > On Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 12:28 AM, Jason Silver wrote:
                    >
                    > > Greetings again Sir Koredono
                    > >
                    ... snip ...
                    >
                    > > Also, if you are apart of the group, I need to ask, the hats that I
                    > > see many of the guys wearing, what are those called and where do you
                    > > get them?
                    >
                    > If you mean the rounded ones, that look like an inverted fruit bowl,
                    > I'm afraid I can't really help you. One of my former squire brothers,
                    > when he was stationed in Japan in the Navy, went to a specialty store
                    > to acquire them. He has since, some years ago, been transferred back
                    > to the states, so our source is gone.
                    >
                    > > I have your basic conical style but don't really feel that
                    > > it fits me or my look so well.. In truth I would love another style
                    > > of hat (don't know the correct name for it), but it is the style that
                    > > goes completely over your head only leaving a small window in front
                    > > that looks like a bunch of bamboo bars (in theory, hiding the face)..
                    > > Just seems more my style LOL.. (better to hide me then see me I think
                    > > LOL)
                    >
                    > I would enjoy one of those myself, but I suspect that'd be even harder
                    > to find than we ones we got.
                    >

                    You can get them from Japan -
                    http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/warring5.htm - not cheap but very
                    nice. The hat you're describing sounds like the 'Ronin gasa'. I haven't seen
                    one of these yet, but have the 'Takuhatsu gasa' and the quality is pretty
                    good. The cheaper hats don't have quite the same build quality.

                    And yes, the 'Takuhatsu gasa' constantly gets referred to as 'the fruit
                    bowl'.

                    ... snip again ...


                    ---
                    Steve Gill
                    Steve@...
                    http://www.caws.demon.co.uk/
                    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lion_azure/

                    This message has been checked for all known viruses by Norton AntiVirus
                    2002.
                  • Donald J. Luby
                    ... Actually, it looks like we have Sando gasa , but the shape isn t all that different. Thanks for the info, BTW; now I know where we could get more. OTOH,
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 9, 2003
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                      On Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 05:42 AM, Steve Gill wrote:

                      > You can get them from Japan -
                      > http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/warring5.htm - not cheap but
                      > very
                      > nice. The hat you're describing sounds like the 'Ronin gasa'. I
                      > haven't seen
                      > one of these yet, but have the 'Takuhatsu gasa' and the quality is
                      > pretty
                      > good. The cheaper hats don't have quite the same build quality.
                      >
                      > And yes, the 'Takuhatsu gasa' constantly gets referred to as 'the fruit
                      > bowl'.

                      Actually, it looks like we have "Sando gasa", but the shape isn't all
                      that different. Thanks for the info, BTW; now I know where we could
                      get more. OTOH, the seem to be charging about triple what we got them
                      from in Japan; I guess everyone has whatever markup they think they cna
                      get away with.

                      > ---
                      > Steve Gill
                      > Steve@...
                      > http://www.caws.demon.co.uk/
                      > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lion_azure/

                      Koredono
                    • Solveig
                      Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... As i recall, holding names are only created at laurel level. This means that your name has to make it past kingdom
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 11, 2003
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                        Noble Cousins!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        >Also, you cannot submit a device without submitting a name (though you
                        >can submit a name, and if it passes, you can later submit a device for
                        >it), so unless you've got your name documentation all good to go, you
                        >should probably take care of that soon too; if the name bounces and the
                        >mon passes, they'll assign you a 'holding name' (usually something like
                        >"[your mundane or SCA first name] of [the name of the SCA group you
                        >live in]", which is what your mon will be registered to, until you
                        >submit a name which passes.

                        As i recall, "holding names" are only created at laurel level. This means
                        that your name has to make it past kingdom level, or everything gets sent
                        back to you.
                        --

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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                      • Solveig
                        Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! We should understand that the late sixteenth century military groups were distinct from the uji which did persist in at
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 12, 2003
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                          Noble Cousins!

                          Greetings from Solveig! We should understand that the late sixteenth
                          century military groups were distinct from the uji which did persist
                          in at least some circles until after the Meiji Restoration in the
                          nineteenth century. In terms of name formation, these uji are imporant,
                          but the military groups of the sixteenth century generally are not.
                          This is because the mlitary groups were, according to Mass, territory
                          based rather than kinship based.

                          Regardless, the uji as distinct from the family does show up in
                          documents. Since the uji often carry the kabane titles you are
                          not so likely to pass over them when you are getting into high
                          gear about announcing yourself and your impressive lineage.
                          However, actual practice can only be deduced from reading Monogatari
                          dating from about the time period that you are interested in.

                          So for example, Takeda Shingen claimed descent from the Seiwa Genji
                          and therefor from Seiwa Ten'nou. What you should expect is for the
                          Genji to posess the cadet branch which in turn might posess a
                          specific family and then on to a specific individual who first is
                          mentioned by their structural relationship and then by their
                          individual name. Here is an example taken from a more or less
                          contemporaneous illustration:

                          Takeda Daizen no Daibu Harunobu Nyuudou Shingen

                          In this case we are not seeing the Genji being mentioned although
                          we do see them being mentioned in 19th century documents with
                          notations such as Minamoto no Asomi. Here is a specific example
                          from Heike Monogatari.

                          Daijou Daijin Taira no Asson Kiyomori Kou

                          GOOD GRIEF IT IS A TYPO! GRUMBLE! GRUMBLE! GRUMBLE! That is supposed
                          to be Ason not Asson. GRUMBLE! And, I just got to the point where
                          fixing things costs money.

                          Daijou Daijin is a an office, Taira is an Uji, ... <I think that
                          I will quitely go off somewhere and cry or something.>


                          The wandering -no- is at best a bit elusive. This is especially true
                          as they generally only appear as glosses and not in the main text.
                          However, at least some of the names in Heike Monogatari follow the
                          form of <uji> no <tsuushou> <nanori> which puts the -no- in a rather
                          differnt place than you are putting it. The placemet which I am
                          suggesting makes a bit more sense if you think about the function
                          of the name elementand their possible origin. I currently believe
                          that -<suffix> names are generally associated with <uji> and are
                          "posessed" by the <uji> and that <nanori> originated as an imitation
                          of Chinese given names begining around 645 CE.

                          Incidentally, I just sent NCMJ to the printer a couple of hours ago.
                          I should be receiving a proof early next week, and if the printer
                          smiles kindly upon us, it will be available at Pennsic. This will
                          be a "Revised" editition rather than a "Second" edition. There are
                          a number of specific reasons for this, but I am too tired at the
                          moment to go over them in detail.


                          >Well, that *sounds* pretty good to me, but I'm sure that Solveig
                          >(and Effingham) will have a far more informed opinion than I, and
                          >will probably will share it with you.
                          >
                          >> At present I am using the last.. I do plan on reordering the book
                          >>that done by Solveig Throndardottir as I believe that as one of
                          >>the few japanese persona's in our area I need to try to help
                          >>others who come along after me,
                          >
                          >What an excellent motivation! I was lucky, having been originally
                          >squired to a European knight who already had a Japanese squire, and
                          >then transferred to the head of the largest Japanese household in
                          >the SCA (Sir Ogami Akira, of Clan Yama Kaminari), as well as
                          >apprenticed to a Laurel, who, while primarily interested in Italian
                          >Rennaisance costuming, had done a good bit of research and interest
                          >in Japanese costuming as well.
                          >I know that in many areas, Japanese (or even all non-mainline
                          >Western European) personae are given trouble - I've heard many a
                          >story of people who wanted Japanese personae, but were told by the
                          >'knowledgeable old-timers' in their group that such was 'not
                          >allowed' in the SCA. So, the best answer really is to just be a
                          >good example, an informed source of information, and role model for
                          >other new people.
                          >
                          >> that and I loved some of the information contained with in the book.
                          >>
                          >> Well, thats about it for now, need to go to work..
                          >> Jason
                          >> SCA : Imakawa Shirou no Yoshitaka
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Sir Koredono
                          >
                          >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          >-------
                          >Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
                          >Koredono, KSCA
                          >djl@...
                          >Yama-kaminari-ryu
                          >Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands,
                          >AEthelmearc
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          >
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                          --
                          +----------------------------------+-----------------------------------+
                          | Dr. Barbara Nostrand | Department of Computer Science |
                          | Assistant Professor | SUNY College at Potsdam |
                          | (315) 267-2216 | Potsdam, New York 13676 |
                          +----------------------------------+-----------------------------------+
                          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                          | the trash by my email filters. |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          --

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar

                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                          | the trash by my email filters. |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        • Dean Wayland
                          Dear Donald, Further to Steve Gill s reply regarding Kasa (hats) from shop-japan at: http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/warring5.htm - not cheap When we
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 19, 2003
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                            Dear Donald,

                            Further to Steve Gill's reply regarding Kasa (hats) from shop-japan at:
                            http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/warring5.htm - not cheap

                            When we got our first order from them last month we found that some of
                            the cheaper hats have a plastic frame as part of their construction,
                            which gives them a flat apex, and can be seen at the centre on the
                            inside only. Steve's "Takuhatsu gasa" was the only one without this
                            feature. I have the Sando-gasa which has a flattish top to it, and so it
                            doesn't look too bad, and once I have covered the plastic with Washi
                            (Japanese paper), installed the Atamadai (a ring with loops for wearing
                            the Kasa), and finally putting in the cloth pad normally worn, you'll
                            never know its there.

                            As we try to avoid modern materials in kit construction, I wrote to
                            shop-japan and asked which other models don't have plastic frames. I
                            have just received their reply and I thought you might find it useful.
                            Apart from the Takuhatsu gasa the only one devoid of plastic is the
                            Ronin gasa, so that's what we're getting next, along with some more
                            Waraji (straw sandals).

                            If you manage to find anyone out there doing them cheaper let us know.

                            Yours

                            Dean
                            Dean Wayland
                            Head Of The Fight School
                            http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk
                          • Anthony J. Bryant
                            ... Thanks, this is good to know! Effingham PS: Tell herself I said hi!
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jul 19, 2003
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                              Dean Wayland wrote:

                              >
                              > As we try to avoid modern materials in kit construction, I wrote to
                              > shop-japan and asked which other models don't have plastic frames. I
                              > have just received their reply and I thought you might find it useful.
                              > Apart from the Takuhatsu gasa the only one devoid of plastic is the
                              > Ronin gasa, so that's what we're getting next, along with some more
                              > Waraji (straw sandals).

                              Thanks, this is good to know!

                              Effingham

                              PS: Tell herself I said "hi!"
                            • Dean Wayland
                              ... No problem ... Willco:-) Dean Wayland Head Of The Fight School http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jul 22, 2003
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                                > Thanks, this is good to know!

                                No problem

                                > Effingham
                                >
                                > PS: Tell herself I said "hi!"

                                Willco:-)
                                Dean Wayland
                                Head Of The Fight School
                                http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk
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