RE: [SCA-JML] Digest Number 1057
- Message: 10
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 12:15:06 -0500
From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
Subject: Re: Jinbaori
Richard Brooks wrote:
>That's actually one of the hardest things to deal with -- the sizing issue.
> I know that I would buy it once it was out..One thing I would love to
> see would be fitting instructions that can be tailored to the person
> wearing the garment.
think what I'm going to do is give "standard Japanese measurements" and
something by way of explanation on how to scale them to taller or wider (or
both) people (e.g., assuming for men, for example, that the original
scaled for someone who's 5'6" tall and with a 27" waist). Most Japanese
clothing really seems to be "one size fits all" -- and modern Western "all"
lot more difficult to fit than period Japanese folk. <G>
What do you think about that plan?
this realy hits me as a GREAT idea... I tried following the measurements
for hakama, and kataginu and ended up with a hakama suited to someonejust
slightly larger than my 35" waist, but the kataginu seemed to be fitted to
someone of sumo proportion. Perhapse it is that I misintrepreted the
instructions, but I did not think the sholders where suposed to hand 6
inches past my sholderpoints. still for my FIRST attempt at japanese garb,
I think it all tyurned out reasonably.
>Yup. Only with patterns more detailed and more seriously intended for
> Is this going to be a historical pattern book, with outfits like on your
reconstruction. (The one-page things here in the files are all shortcuts
don't really give any information on the actual construction.)
GREAT!!! I hope it will also include more information on what belonged to
what timeframe, and how the outfits evolved from century to century. it
probably would be bad to make a outfit for heinan court that uses a hakama
that didn't come into style till late muramachi (I don't know that this
would be the case, BUT it is mearly an example) or that durring this time
fram the obi was traditionaly only a couple inches wide, but turring this
time frame it started to grow wider, and this timeframe it was barely as
wide as a modern belt. (or substitute wider with longer)
> I hope so:) I also hope it includes female garments as well.Oh, definitely. Half the book will be. <G>
wonderful... one of the very few disapointments I have had with the website
was the garb section being incomplete... my girlfriend wants to go
japanese, and my laural has gone japanese, both being female I would like
to see a larger bit of information out there with easy access for those of
us who can not afford large libraries of books. as it stabnds the only
information i can find on womens garb is edo style "kimono" dresses. with
the wide obi and a small backpack sized piece that I do not see how it
could have developed in such an otherwise practical culture<G>
>And some pages of hints on how to cheat. (I've hit on some really sleaz...
> And maybe for those of us who can't find/afford authentic fabric, maybe
> a section with ideas for reasonable facsimiles and substitutes, that
> might be easier to get hold of.
unofficial ways to simulate *some* things.)
> And maybe something like a more detailedThat would be a key part.
> version of your outfits page, that would help the reader put together
> specific outfits, and explain how to wear them properly.
oh drool drool.
> Also, will thisWell, if this ends up being something seriously marketed, I would
> be strictly SCA period, or will there be things like the Edo era
> Kataginu and jinbaori in it?
include the post-period things. (The jinbaori would be in it either way).
question is whether I'd be doing a self-done "Japanese garb for the SCA"
a real-pubbed "Historical Japanese clothing" book. If the latter, a whole
of interesting Edo things would be in there.
might I sugest a li'l of both??? you could build a book for professional
publication and market it tword a world of different groups, then self
publish a booklet or a series of booklets on quick and dirty ways to
produce basic garb from given periods. this would allow someone to get
started without having to invest more in a book containing other fields of
information right away... yet the booklets would cost more per information
covered than the full book. either way I am looking forward to hearing of
the release of this book that I can get my own copy.
>Well, thanks for the appreciative comments!! (And you have also hit on some
> As for a market, this could be targeted to costume designers, theatre
> people, living history groups, the Asian community, and so on. Like I
> said, I know I would want a copy. John Marshall's book is strictly
> modern clothing, a historical counterpart would be nice.
extra marketing angles that would help to "sell" the idea.)
It does make this more appealing as an immediate project.
this truely pleases me... I would love to get my hands on the information
being discussed here, as well as start collecting the rest of your
publications on the topics. also if you need any help getting more of the
unfinished sections of your websites up and running, let me know what (if
anything) I can do to help.
- Matt L wrote:
> I tried following the measurementsWell, proper period kataginu are quite large, almost huge. Look at the mannequin
> for hakama, and kataginu and ended up with a hakama suited to someonejust
> slightly larger than my 35" waist, but the kataginu seemed to be fitted to
> someone of sumo proportion.
wearing one in the Costume Museum:
> Perhapse it is that I misintrepreted theNo, that sounds about right. <G> Seriously, the body of a kataginu shouldn't be
> instructions, but I did not think the sholders where suposed to hand 6
> inches past my sholderpoints.
smaller than the body of the kimono; but since it doesn't have sleeves or
sewn-shut sides, it sticks out rather than wrapping around, and stands out over
the shoulder rather than going down your arm like the kimono. The shoulder seam
on the kimono is actually several inches down your arm from the "point" of your
shoulder, right? Well, imagine that length being brought straight out instead of
>Actually, that is something else I want to do -- a "relationship" chart showing
> GREAT!!! I hope it will also include more information on what belonged to
> what timeframe, and how the outfits evolved from century to century.
garb evolution and connections.
> itIt's a real issue. It happens even in TV; almost every historical drama I've
> probably would be bad to make a outfit for heinan court that uses a hakama
> that didn't come into style till late muramachi (I don't know that this
> would be the case, BUT it is mearly an example)
seen, even when they get the upper garments right, they tend to use the later
hakama patterns. Looks really odd to me, but what it really represents is that
these costumes already exist (there's very little "newly made" costuming for
most historical productions there) and they're just renting bulk.
I recently got a DVD of a really crappy "Minamoto no Yoshitsune" production
where the costumes are okay, but whole chunks of armour were from the latter
part of the 16th C. instead of the latter part of the 13th. And, of course,
they're either wearing Momoyama sashinuki or Momoyama hakama as well.
> or that durring this timeAh, for the days when the obi was just a waist tie no thicker than a ribbon...
> fram the obi was traditionaly only a couple inches wide, but turring this
> time frame it started to grow wider, and this timeframe it was barely as
> wide as a modern belt. (or substitute wider with longer)
>Isn't there a song... <G>
> wonderful... one of the very few disapointments I have had with the website
> was the garb section being incomplete... my girlfriend wants to go
> japanese, and my laural has gone japanese,
> both being female I would likeI'll see if I can help you on that end. <G>
> to see a larger bit of information out there with easy access for those of
> us who can not afford large libraries of books.
> might I sugest a li'l of both??? you could build a book for professionalNot a bad idea...
> publication and market it tword a world of different groups, then self
> publish a booklet or a series of booklets on quick and dirty ways to
> produce basic garb from given periods. this would allow someone to get
> started without having to invest more in a book containing other fields of
> information right away...
> yet the booklets would cost more per informationWell, I'm working now. <G>
> covered than the full book. either way I am looking forward to hearing of
> the release of this book that I can get my own copy.
- I recently returned from a trip tpo new york where I visited the Metropolitan Museum of Art. First off, there Japanese wing is amazing. They have many sets of armor (both in the Japanese wing and their international Armory. What I noticed about the japanese armor was that they were all Gusoku style (I think only one was Yoroi). I couldn't tell the difference between the two, and there was no provided description detailing the differences. All of the sets of armor were later than sca period (17th+). Does this have anything to do with it?
Irobe Saburo Yoriie
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