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RE: [SCA-JML] Digest Number 1057

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  • Matt L
    Message: 10 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 12:15:06 -0500 From: Anthony J. Bryant Subject: Re: Jinbaori ... That s actually one of the hardest
    Message 1 of 3 , Jun 30 10:57 AM
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      Message: 10
      Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 12:15:06 -0500
      From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
      Subject: Re: Jinbaori

      Richard Brooks wrote:

      >
      > I know that I would buy it once it was out..One thing I would love to
      > see would be fitting instructions that can be tailored to the person
      > wearing the garment.

      That's actually one of the hardest things to deal with -- the sizing issue.
      I
      think what I'm going to do is give "standard Japanese measurements" and
      then do
      something by way of explanation on how to scale them to taller or wider (or
      both) people (e.g., assuming for men, for example, that the original
      garment is
      scaled for someone who's 5'6" tall and with a 27" waist). Most Japanese
      clothing really seems to be "one size fits all" -- and modern Western "all"
      is a
      lot more difficult to fit than period Japanese folk. <G>

      What do you think about that plan?

      this realy hits me as a GREAT idea... I tried following the measurements
      for hakama, and kataginu and ended up with a hakama suited to someonejust
      slightly larger than my 35" waist, but the kataginu seemed to be fitted to
      someone of sumo proportion. Perhapse it is that I misintrepreted the
      instructions, but I did not think the sholders where suposed to hand 6
      inches past my sholderpoints. still for my FIRST attempt at japanese garb,
      I think it all tyurned out reasonably.

      <snip>

      >
      > Is this going to be a historical pattern book, with outfits like on your
      > webpage?

      Yup. Only with patterns more detailed and more seriously intended for
      reconstruction. (The one-page things here in the files are all shortcuts
      and
      don't really give any information on the actual construction.)

      GREAT!!! I hope it will also include more information on what belonged to
      what timeframe, and how the outfits evolved from century to century. it
      probably would be bad to make a outfit for heinan court that uses a hakama
      that didn't come into style till late muramachi (I don't know that this
      would be the case, BUT it is mearly an example) or that durring this time
      fram the obi was traditionaly only a couple inches wide, but turring this
      time frame it started to grow wider, and this timeframe it was barely as
      wide as a modern belt. (or substitute wider with longer)

      > I hope so:) I also hope it includes female garments as well.

      Oh, definitely. Half the book will be. <G>

      wonderful... one of the very few disapointments I have had with the website
      was the garb section being incomplete... my girlfriend wants to go
      japanese, and my laural has gone japanese, both being female I would like
      to see a larger bit of information out there with easy access for those of
      us who can not afford large libraries of books. as it stabnds the only
      information i can find on womens garb is edo style "kimono" dresses. with
      the wide obi and a small backpack sized piece that I do not see how it
      could have developed in such an otherwise practical culture<G>

      >
      > And maybe for those of us who can't find/afford authentic fabric, maybe
      > a section with ideas for reasonable facsimiles and substitutes, that
      > might be easier to get hold of.

      And some pages of hints on how to cheat. (I've hit on some really sleaz...
      er,
      unofficial ways to simulate *some* things.)

      > And maybe something like a more detailed
      > version of your outfits page, that would help the reader put together
      > specific outfits, and explain how to wear them properly.

      That would be a key part.

      oh drool drool.

      > Also, will this
      > be strictly SCA period, or will there be things like the Edo era
      > Kataginu and jinbaori in it?
      >

      Well, if this ends up being something seriously marketed, I would
      definitely
      include the post-period things. (The jinbaori would be in it either way).
      The
      question is whether I'd be doing a self-done "Japanese garb for the SCA"
      book or
      a real-pubbed "Historical Japanese clothing" book. If the latter, a whole
      *pile*
      of interesting Edo things would be in there.

      might I sugest a li'l of both??? you could build a book for professional
      publication and market it tword a world of different groups, then self
      publish a booklet or a series of booklets on quick and dirty ways to
      produce basic garb from given periods. this would allow someone to get
      started without having to invest more in a book containing other fields of
      information right away... yet the booklets would cost more per information
      covered than the full book. either way I am looking forward to hearing of
      the release of this book that I can get my own copy.
      >
      > As for a market, this could be targeted to costume designers, theatre
      > people, living history groups, the Asian community, and so on. Like I
      > said, I know I would want a copy. John Marshall's book is strictly
      > modern clothing, a historical counterpart would be nice.

      Well, thanks for the appreciative comments!! (And you have also hit on some
      extra marketing angles that would help to "sell" the idea.)

      It does make this more appealing as an immediate project.

      this truely pleases me... I would love to get my hands on the information
      being discussed here, as well as start collecting the rest of your
      publications on the topics. also if you need any help getting more of the
      unfinished sections of your websites up and running, let me know what (if
      anything) I can do to help.

      Matt L
    • Anthony J. Bryant
      ... Well, proper period kataginu are quite large, almost huge. Look at the mannequin wearing one in the Costume Museum:
      Message 2 of 3 , Jul 1, 2003
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        Matt L wrote:

        > I tried following the measurements
        > for hakama, and kataginu and ended up with a hakama suited to someonejust
        > slightly larger than my 35" waist, but the kataginu seemed to be fitted to
        > someone of sumo proportion.

        Well, proper period kataginu are quite large, almost huge. Look at the mannequin
        wearing one in the Costume Museum:
        <http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/images/100-a.gif>

        > Perhapse it is that I misintrepreted the
        > instructions, but I did not think the sholders where suposed to hand 6
        > inches past my sholderpoints.

        No, that sounds about right. <G> Seriously, the body of a kataginu shouldn't be
        smaller than the body of the kimono; but since it doesn't have sleeves or
        sewn-shut sides, it sticks out rather than wrapping around, and stands out over
        the shoulder rather than going down your arm like the kimono. The shoulder seam
        on the kimono is actually several inches down your arm from the "point" of your
        shoulder, right? Well, imagine that length being brought straight out instead of
        down.

        >
        > GREAT!!! I hope it will also include more information on what belonged to
        > what timeframe, and how the outfits evolved from century to century.

        Actually, that is something else I want to do -- a "relationship" chart showing
        garb evolution and connections.

        > it
        > probably would be bad to make a outfit for heinan court that uses a hakama
        > that didn't come into style till late muramachi (I don't know that this
        > would be the case, BUT it is mearly an example)

        It's a real issue. It happens even in TV; almost every historical drama I've
        seen, even when they get the upper garments right, they tend to use the later
        hakama patterns. Looks really odd to me, but what it really represents is that
        these costumes already exist (there's very little "newly made" costuming for
        most historical productions there) and they're just renting bulk.

        I recently got a DVD of a really crappy "Minamoto no Yoshitsune" production
        where the costumes are okay, but whole chunks of armour were from the latter
        part of the 16th C. instead of the latter part of the 13th. And, of course,
        they're either wearing Momoyama sashinuki or Momoyama hakama as well.

        > or that durring this time
        > fram the obi was traditionaly only a couple inches wide, but turring this
        > time frame it started to grow wider, and this timeframe it was barely as
        > wide as a modern belt. (or substitute wider with longer)

        Ah, for the days when the obi was just a waist tie no thicker than a ribbon...
        <G>

        >
        > wonderful... one of the very few disapointments I have had with the website
        > was the garb section being incomplete... my girlfriend wants to go
        > japanese, and my laural has gone japanese,

        Isn't there a song... <G>

        > both being female I would like
        > to see a larger bit of information out there with easy access for those of
        > us who can not afford large libraries of books.

        I'll see if I can help you on that end. <G>

        > might I sugest a li'l of both??? you could build a book for professional
        > publication and market it tword a world of different groups, then self
        > publish a booklet or a series of booklets on quick and dirty ways to
        > produce basic garb from given periods. this would allow someone to get
        > started without having to invest more in a book containing other fields of
        > information right away...

        Not a bad idea...

        > yet the booklets would cost more per information
        > covered than the full book. either way I am looking forward to hearing of
        > the release of this book that I can get my own copy.
        >

        Well, I'm working now. <G>


        Effingham
      • sean ibanez
        I recently returned from a trip tpo new york where I visited the Metropolitan Museum of Art. First off, there Japanese wing is amazing. They have many sets
        Message 3 of 3 , Jul 7, 2003
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          I recently returned from a trip tpo new york where I visited the Metropolitan Museum of Art. First off, there Japanese wing is amazing. They have many sets of armor (both in the Japanese wing and their international Armory. What I noticed about the japanese armor was that they were all Gusoku style (I think only one was Yoroi). I couldn't tell the difference between the two, and there was no provided description detailing the differences. All of the sets of armor were later than sca period (17th+). Does this have anything to do with it?

          Irobe Saburo Yoriie


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