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question of equipiment seen in many samurai pictures

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  • Matt L
    since I started studying the japanese culture I have found one piece of equipiment seen on pictures of mounted samurai frequently, yed the discriptions I have
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 10, 2003
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      since I started studying the japanese culture I have found one piece of
      equipiment seen on pictures of mounted samurai frequently, yed the
      discriptions I have found have told me nothing of that this item is... I
      refer to the doughnut shaped ring appearantly strapped most commonly to
      thier left hip below the swords. I find this item wether the depicted
      samurai is using a bow, sword, or spear. I was just looking at a kyudo
      website www.kyudo.com where I found an accessory, the Tsurumaki (string
      holder) to have simular appearance. I was wondering if anyone could
      speculate, or hopefuly tell me from actualy knowledge of the equipiment if
      this is the same piece. I am currently attempting to find a url of an
      online picture of a samurai wearing the accessory in question so you can
      compare.

      http://horse.shrine.net/samurai/image/ohiko.jpg appears to have such a ring
      below his elbow. subject is carrying a bow.
      http://horse.shrine.net/samurai/image/yorimitsu.jpg appears to have one
      (above the horses head) subject is fighting with sword, but carrying bow.
      http://horse.shrine.net/samurai/image/tomoe.jpg has the same ring, is
      fighting with yari, has no sign of archery equipiment. ring is located
      above tachi
      http://horse.shrine.net/samurai/image/atsumori.jpg has ring, also carrying
      archery gear.
      numerous other samurai in this same gallery are carrying the same ring at
      thier left hip straped below katanas, or above the tachi. I am convinced
      that this object is the string holder, but the fact that some of the
      samurai do not have bows or arrows, yet are carrying them in SOME
      illistrations I have seen does leave some question to the acuracy of my
      assumption. I do know in certain periods, mounted samurai where said to
      have all been archers as thier primary weapon, but still in my limited
      access to quality research material at the present, I want to do the best
      with what I have available to me.

      Matt L.
      Vulpine Reach, Meridies
      BTW, Border Raids is being held in about 2 weeks. I was wondering who would
      be attending. I hope we could make use of the event to get together and
      socialize a bit.
    • Ii Saburou
      ... Yup, it is the same thing. ... You will see it as common equipment up through the Kamakura era, I believe. Why would someone have that and not their bow?
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 11, 2003
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        On Wed, 11 Jun 2003, Matt L wrote:

        > since I started studying the japanese culture I have found one piece of
        > equipiment seen on pictures of mounted samurai frequently, yed the
        > discriptions I have found have told me nothing of that this item is... I
        > refer to the doughnut shaped ring appearantly strapped most commonly to
        > thier left hip below the swords. I find this item wether the depicted
        > samurai is using a bow, sword, or spear. I was just looking at a kyudo
        > website www.kyudo.com where I found an accessory, the Tsurumaki (string
        > holder) to have simular appearance. I was wondering if anyone could
        > speculate, or hopefuly tell me from actualy knowledge of the equipiment if
        > this is the same piece. I am currently attempting to find a url of an
        > online picture of a samurai wearing the accessory in question so you can
        > compare.

        Yup, it is the same thing.

        > numerous other samurai in this same gallery are carrying the same ring at
        > thier left hip straped below katanas, or above the tachi. I am convinced
        > that this object is the string holder, but the fact that some of the
        > samurai do not have bows or arrows, yet are carrying them in SOME
        > illistrations I have seen does leave some question to the acuracy of my
        > assumption. I do know in certain periods, mounted samurai where said to
        > have all been archers as thier primary weapon, but still in my limited
        > access to quality research material at the present, I want to do the best
        > with what I have available to me.

        You will see it as common equipment up through the Kamakura era, I
        believe. Why would someone have that and not their bow? Perhaps the bow
        broke, perhaps they were engaging in close-quarters and tossed it aside,
        or perhaps they gave it to an aide. Or perhaps it is just considered an
        essential part of a warrior's kit and as such the artist wasn't satisfied
        until it was there.

        Just some suggestions, but you are correct in its purpose.

        -Ii
      • Erin Kelly
        Ah, yes, that would be the little-known war bagel , which was used for sustenance.... ;) lurker ERIN
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 11, 2003
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          Ah, yes, that would be the little-known "war bagel", which was used for
          sustenance.... ;)

          lurker ERIN
        • Marko Peussa
          It s tsurumaki. The bow was sometimes carried by an attendant. Regards, Klaus ... From: Matt L To: Sent:
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 11, 2003
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            It's tsurumaki. The bow was sometimes carried by an attendant.

            Regards,

            Klaus

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Matt L" <mattlew@...>
            To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 09:54
            Subject: [SCA-JML] question of equipiment seen in many samurai pictures


            > since I started studying the japanese culture I have found one piece of
            > equipiment seen on pictures of mounted samurai frequently, yed the
            > discriptions I have found have told me nothing of that this item is... I
            > refer to the doughnut shaped ring appearantly strapped most commonly to
            > thier left hip below the swords. I find this item wether the depicted
            > samurai is using a bow, sword, or spear. I was just looking at a kyudo
            > website www.kyudo.com where I found an accessory, the Tsurumaki (string
            > holder) to have simular appearance. I was wondering if anyone could
            > speculate, or hopefuly tell me from actualy knowledge of the equipiment if
            > this is the same piece. I am currently attempting to find a url of an
            > online picture of a samurai wearing the accessory in question so you can
            > compare.
            >
            > http://horse.shrine.net/samurai/image/ohiko.jpg appears to have such a
            ring
            > below his elbow. subject is carrying a bow.
            > http://horse.shrine.net/samurai/image/yorimitsu.jpg appears to have one
            > (above the horses head) subject is fighting with sword, but carrying bow.
            > http://horse.shrine.net/samurai/image/tomoe.jpg has the same ring, is
            > fighting with yari, has no sign of archery equipiment. ring is located
            > above tachi
            > http://horse.shrine.net/samurai/image/atsumori.jpg has ring, also carrying
            > archery gear.
            > numerous other samurai in this same gallery are carrying the same ring at
            > thier left hip straped below katanas, or above the tachi. I am convinced
            > that this object is the string holder, but the fact that some of the
            > samurai do not have bows or arrows, yet are carrying them in SOME
            > illistrations I have seen does leave some question to the acuracy of my
            > assumption. I do know in certain periods, mounted samurai where said to
            > have all been archers as thier primary weapon, but still in my limited
            > access to quality research material at the present, I want to do the best
            > with what I have available to me.
            >
            > Matt L.
            > Vulpine Reach, Meridies
            > BTW, Border Raids is being held in about 2 weeks. I was wondering who
            would
            > be attending. I hope we could make use of the event to get together and
            > socialize a bit.
            >
            >
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            >
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            >
            >
          • Solveig
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The ring in question is called a tsurumaki and is slung from the ebira (quiver). It can also be hung from the tachi. It
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 11, 2003
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig! The ring in question is called a tsurumaki and is
              slung from the ebira (quiver). It can also be hung from the tachi. It is a
              piece of archery equipment similar in design to a yoyo for storing bow
              strings.

              Archery was the prestige martial form. One of your pictures is of Atsumori
              who is a tragic character in Heike Monogatari. The picture shows him shortly
              after being hailed by the man who would slay him. He had returned to the
              abandoned Heike encampment to retrieve a forgotten flute and was trying to
              catch up with the retreating Heike ships. Traditionally, the battle
              begins with an exchange of arrows and concludes with a sword fight.

              Due to the prestige of archery, the tsurumaki would definitely be shown by
              the artist and most likely worn by all upper-class warriors. Think of
              that crescent shaped piece of metal worn bellow the neck by all British
              officers of the late seventeenth century. That piece of metal was vestigial
              armour worn for reasons of rank and status. Thus, you should expect to see the
              tsurumaki worn by Japanese officers even if they are not actually archers.
              --

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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            • Alcyoneus
              Gorget. Alcyoneus ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 11, 2003
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                Gorget.

                Alcyoneus

                At 11:19 AM 6/11/2003 -0400, you wrote:
                >Noble Cousin!
                >
                >Think of
                >that crescent shaped piece of metal worn bellow the neck by all British
                >officers of the late seventeenth century. That piece of metal was vestigial
                >armour worn for reasons of rank and status. Thus, you should expect to see the
                >tsurumaki worn by Japanese officers even if they are not actually archers.
                >--
                >
                > Your Humble Servant
                > Solveig Throndardottir
                > Amateur Scholar
                >
                >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                >| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                >| deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                >| mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Marko Peussa
                I would like to point out that tsurumaki was also carried by low ranking archers, at least in the 15th century. It s just a piece of equipment for storing
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 13, 2003
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                  I would like to point out that tsurumaki was also carried by low ranking
                  archers, at least in the 15th century. It's just a piece of equipment for
                  storing spare bowstings.

                  Regards,

                  Klaus

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Solveig" <nostrand@...>
                  To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 18:19
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] question of equipiment seen in many samurai pictures

                  <snippage>

                  > Due to the prestige of archery, the tsurumaki would definitely be shown by
                  > the artist and most likely worn by all upper-class warriors. Think of
                  > that crescent shaped piece of metal worn bellow the neck by all British
                  > officers of the late seventeenth century. That piece of metal was
                  vestigial
                  > armour worn for reasons of rank and status. Thus, you should expect to see
                  the
                  > tsurumaki worn by Japanese officers even if they are not actually archers.
                  > --
                  >
                  > Your Humble Servant
                  > Solveig Throndardottir
                  > Amateur Scholar
                • Chuck Howell
                  I m not sure how true this may be or not, but the ring at the hip looks very similar to a Blood Stone, which was a small ring-shaped stone that, from what I
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 13, 2003
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                    I'm not sure how true this may be or not, but the ring at the hip looks
                    very similar to a Blood Stone, which was a small ring-shaped stone that,
                    from what I hear, was used by foot soldiers in the west to sharpen their
                    swords and clean them. I make no claims to know for sure what it is, but I
                    do know that that is what it looks like. Please don't think me stupid ^_^
                    Hope this was helpful


                    C. Howell

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
                    C. Howell, Greetings, tomodachi (hello friend...) I respectfully submit that you (unfortunately...) are way off, in that the bowstring reel (Tsuramaki)is the
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 13, 2003
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                      C. Howell,
                      Greetings, tomodachi (hello friend...)
                      I respectfully submit that you (unfortunately...) are way off, in that
                      the bowstring reel (Tsuramaki)is the correct answer...
                      I could be wrong, but as far as I know, the Japanese have no
                      "Bloodstone" tradition...trusting the sharpening of their weapons to
                      specialists, as opposed to doing it themselves...
                      No one will ever think you stupid for offering observations you beleve
                      to be true...just understand that sometimes the reality is not what
                      you percieved...
                      We all have to face that possibility...
                      - Date

                      Shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the grave
                      http://www.kabutographics.com
                      kabuto@...



                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Howell"
                      <excel_saga_is_yummy@h...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I'm not sure how true this may be or not, but the ring at the hip looks
                      > very similar to a Blood Stone, which was a small ring-shaped stone that,
                      > from what I hear, was used by foot soldiers in the west to sharpen their
                      > swords and clean them. I make no claims to know for sure what it is,
                      but I
                      > do know that that is what it looks like. Please don't think me
                      stupid ^_^
                      > Hope this was helpful
                      >
                      >
                      > C. Howell
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Chuck Howell
                      Date-dono, Thank you. I noted that after I sent my suggestion that others said what it was. Gomen. At any rate, I was glad to see that it was explained, as I,
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 13, 2003
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                        Date-dono,

                        Thank you. I noted that after I sent my suggestion that others said
                        what it was. Gomen. At any rate, I was glad to see that it was explained, as
                        I, myself, had wondered what the object was. Well then, while I'm here, does
                        anyone know where to obtain SCA Legal Japanese armor? I've not been able to
                        find any yet. Do keep in touch.

                        Regards,
                        Chuck Howell

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Solveig
                        Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... The citation I found for the things was illustrated. The thing we are discussing is definitely a bow string holder.
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 22, 2003
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                          Noble Cousins!

                          Greetings from Solveig!

                          > I'm not sure how true this may be or not, but the ring at the hip looks
                          >very similar to a Blood Stone, which was a small ring-shaped stone that,
                          >from what I hear, was used by foot soldiers in the west to sharpen their
                          >swords and clean them. I make no claims to know for sure what it is, but I
                          >do know that that is what it looks like. Please don't think me stupid ^_^
                          >Hope this was helpful

                          The citation I found for the things was illustrated. The thing we are
                          discussing is definitely a bow string holder. Further, I have seen
                          Japanese sword equipment in action. They do not look at all similar.
                          --

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar

                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                          | the trash by my email filters. |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        • Ron McAdams
                          Hello, I am new to the SCA and was thinking about developing a Japanese persona. While I am working on this, I would like to try and Dress the part . Does
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jun 23, 2003
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                            Hello,

                            I am new to the SCA and was thinking about developing a Japanese
                            persona. While I am working on this, I would like to try and "Dress the
                            part". Does anyone have a good resource online for period clothing?
                            Also are geta and seta considered period? Is the kimono and hamaka
                            considered to be the standard dress for the 1250s?

                            Is there a great webpage for beginers to get started?

                            Thanks for all the great posts so far and sorry to ask so many questions
                            all at once. :)

                            Ron

                            ,,,,,
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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • ELAINE KOOGLER
                            Greetings! And welcome to the list. I m sure others will jump in and point you to all sorts of places. In fact, I suspect you ll see lots of references to
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jun 23, 2003
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                              Greetings!
                              And welcome to the list. I'm sure others will jump in and point you to
                              all sorts of places. In fact, I suspect you'll see lots of references
                              to the two sites I am providing.

                              The first of these is the Costume Museum in Kyoto, Japan. I'm giving
                              you the link to the English language version...it's the one I use as I
                              can't speak or read Japanese. there are lots of great pictures
                              there...models wearing the garments as well as line drawings. Boy, do
                              I wish this had existed when I started out, some 20 years ago!

                              The second of the sites is the home page of one of the most
                              knowledgeable folks I know of regarding "things Japanese". He is in
                              the SCA, is a fighter, artist, writer, etc., etc. The Midrealm finally
                              saw the light of day last year and gave him his Laurel for his work.
                              He has all sorts of information there, not sure exactly what you want,
                              so I'm sending you to the opening page and you can strike out on your
                              own from there.

                              Good luck!!

                              Kiri
                              (Minowara Kiritsubo, living in the Barony of Dun Carraig in Atlantia)

                              http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/index.htm
                              http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Ron McAdams <rmcadams@...>
                              Date: Monday, June 23, 2003 4:56 pm
                              Subject: [SCA-JML] Trolling for a while and finaly asking a question

                              > <span><p><span><p>
                              >
                              >
                              > <tt>
                              > Hello,
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I am new to the SCA and was thinking about developing a Japanese
                              >
                              > persona. While I am working on this, I would like to try and
                              > "Dress the
                              >
                              > part". Does anyone have a good resource online for period
                              > clothing?
                              > Also are geta and seta considered period? Is the kimono and hamaka
                              >
                              > considered to be the standard dress for the 1250s?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Is there a great webpage for beginers to get started?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Thanks for all the great posts so far and sorry to ask so many
                              > questions
                              > all at once. :)
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Ron
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ,,,,,
                              >
                              > (o o)
                              >
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                              >
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                            • Ii Saburou
                              http://www.sengokudaimyo.com or the Costume Museum at http://www.iz2.or.jp (In Japanese or English) There are also several files in the Garb Files section of
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jun 23, 2003
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                                http://www.sengokudaimyo.com or the Costume Museum at http://www.iz2.or.jp
                                (In Japanese or English)

                                There are also several files in the Garb Files section of the Yahoo!
                                Groups page.

                                -Ii

                                On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Ron McAdams wrote:

                                > Hello,
                                >
                                > I am new to the SCA and was thinking about developing a Japanese
                                > persona. While I am working on this, I would like to try and "Dress the
                                > part". Does anyone have a good resource online for period clothing?
                                > Also are geta and seta considered period? Is the kimono and hamaka
                                > considered to be the standard dress for the 1250s?
                                >
                                > Is there a great webpage for beginers to get started?
                                >
                                > Thanks for all the great posts so far and sorry to ask so many questions
                                > all at once. :)
                                >
                                > Ron
                                >
                                > ,,,,,
                                > (o o)
                                > ==================oOO==(_)==OOo==========
                                > ---------------------------------------
                                > Ron McAdams - A+ Certified
                                > PC / Macintosh Support
                                > ---------------------------------------
                                > Southeast Missouri State University
                                > Computer Services Department / AC 134
                                > <http://www.semo.edu/> http://www.semo.edu
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                                > ICQ # : 2523714
                                > Work: rmcadams@...
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                                > -------------------------------------
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                                >
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                                >
                              • Anthony J. Bryant
                                ... Thanks for the kind words, dollface. At this stage of things -- I need all the smiles and props I can get. Sigh. Effingcheesed
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jun 26, 2003
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                                  ELAINE KOOGLER wrote:

                                  > The second of the sites is the home page of one of the most
                                  > knowledgeable folks I know of regarding "things Japanese". He is in
                                  > the SCA, is a fighter, artist, writer, etc., etc. The Midrealm finally
                                  > saw the light of day last year and gave him his Laurel for his work.
                                  > He has all sorts of information there, not sure exactly what you want,
                                  > so I'm sending you to the opening page and you can strike out on your
                                  > own from there.

                                  Thanks for the kind words, dollface. At this stage of "things" -- I need all the
                                  smiles and props I can get. Sigh.

                                  Effingcheesed
                                • ELAINE KOOGLER
                                  My pleasure...I meant every word of it. I was very embarrassed to get my Laurel, even only partially for Japanese study, before you got yours. Come party with
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jun 27, 2003
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                                    My pleasure...I meant every word of it. I was very embarrassed to get
                                    my Laurel, even only partially for Japanese study, before you got
                                    yours.

                                    Come party with us at Pennsic...we'll lift your spirits! I can't wait
                                    to see you again!!!!!!!

                                    Kiri



                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                                    Date: Thursday, June 26, 2003 6:26 pm
                                    Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Trolling for a while and finaly asking a question

                                    > <span><p><span><p>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > <tt>
                                    > ELAINE KOOGLER wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > The second of the sites is the home page of one of the most
                                    >
                                    > > knowledgeable folks I know of regarding "things
                                    > Japanese". He is in
                                    >
                                    > > the SCA, is a fighter, artist, writer, etc., etc. The
                                    > Midrealm finally
                                    >
                                    > > saw the light of day last year and gave him his Laurel for
                                    > his work.
                                    >
                                    > > He has all sorts of information there, not sure exactly what
                                    > you want,
                                    >
                                    > > so I'm sending you to the opening page and you can strike out
                                    > on your
                                    >
                                    > > own from there.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Thanks for the kind words, dollface. At this stage of
                                    > "things" -- I need all the
                                    >
                                    > smiles and props I can get. Sigh.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Effingcheesed
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > </tt>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                                    ... Fmeh. You deserved your Laurel!!! (So there. Nyah.) ... I will, if I can make it. (And I really *do* want to make it.) I m pre-regged, but the chances are
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jun 27, 2003
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                                      ELAINE KOOGLER wrote:

                                      > My pleasure...I meant every word of it. I was very embarrassed to get
                                      > my Laurel, even only partially for Japanese study, before you got
                                      > yours.
                                      >

                                      Fmeh. You deserved your Laurel!!! (So there. Nyah.)

                                      >
                                      > Come party with us at Pennsic...we'll lift your spirits! I can't wait
                                      > to see you again!!!!!!!

                                      I will, if I can make it. (And I really *do* want to make it.)

                                      I'm pre-regged, but the chances are that if I *do* find a job, I'd be in the
                                      middle of packing and moving around then for the start of the academic year. If
                                      there are still jobs for the next year *open* at this late date.

                                      Ironically, this is the first Pennsic I've regged for in years that I haven't
                                      signed up to teach anything yet. Maybe it was an omen. (And I have a good idea
                                      who Damien would be...)

                                      Effingstressed
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