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Re: [SCA-JML] Kesho-Mawashi? and sumo story

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  • iroadkilli@aol.com
    The text I have relatetes that the ceremonial girdle, kesho-mawashi, is traditionally related to a wrestler, Akashi, who in 1600 became embarassed by his
    Message 1 of 11 , May 31, 2003
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      The text I have relatetes that the ceremonial girdle, kesho-mawashi, is
      traditionally related to a wrestler, Akashi, who in 1600 became embarassed by his
      nudity in the presence of the emperor and wrapped himself in a huge standard
      affixed to a nearby pole, thereby unknowingly establihing a fashion which is
      still followed today.

      my own experiance with the mawashi is that it is a long strip of cloth just
      folded, wraped, and tucked and you do have a slightly exposed feeling when
      wearing it. I was on my way to watch a sumo match in tokyo and got into a
      discusion with some of the other people on the bus that were going to participate.
      It was a charity match and they asked if I would like to try it, the leader of
      the group had trained with Takamiyama in the states and they were going to
      wrestle with him. What the H. I'll try anything once. When we got off the bus
      we went around back to the practice rings they suited up and got me into the
      mawashi, I was wondering were the back of the outfit was but who is going to
      see me anyway. They gave me a quick explanation of how the game works and we
      practiced for a little while. The actual wrestlers I saw were clasic Japanese
      sized if a little bulky. When we were called into the ring it was a bit of a
      shock since the statum was filled to capacity including the imperial box. and
      Jesse was weighing in at 440 lbs. He was in the ring being attacked by about
      20 kids about 8 to 12 years old. They were trying to tople him and he was
      just reaching down into the pack picking them up by their belts and tossing them
      one handed to a couple of other wrestlers that were also in the ring. when my
      turn with him came I would like to say I did well but at 115 lbs he came down
      around me and caried me upside down out of the ring. as a postscript i found
      out when I got back to the ship that the whole tornement had been shown live
      all over japan.

      Paul

      In a message dated 5/29/03 12:17:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
      nostrand@... writes:

      > Greetings from Solveig! I am now confused. My impression from the original
      > posting was that they were asking about the aprons seen at ring entering
      > ceremonies and not the mawashi which is worn at all times. I have plans
      > for a School Boy Sumo Assocation mawashi and it is just a long rectangular
      > strip of cloth. Thus, except for the fancy fabrics used in modern
      > professional
      > Sumo, there really is not a whole lot of difference between a fundoshi and
      > a mawashi except propriety of naming. Many things in Sumo have distinctive
      > names even though they exist outside of Sumo under different names. School
      > boy mawashi are generally white so they are quite close to fundoshi which
      > are generally not used in Japan any more as Japanese stores are now full
      > of underwear similar to American underwear.
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
      as a postscript i found ... shown live ... Out of curiosity, what year was this? I have seen this play enacted out a few times...(...with all respects to those
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 1, 2003
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        as a postscript i found
        > out when I got back to the ship that the whole tornement had been
        shown live
        > all over japan.

        Out of curiosity, what year was this? I have seen this play enacted
        out a few times...(...with all respects to those involved... )

        I know the origins of sumo are slightly older than the 1600's...but I
        do not know when the rules were codefied...if a (demi)period demo
        could be had at Pennsic...I would enjoy it...and participate, perhaps...

        Not all of the participants at the school I lived near were of
        "supposedly" traditional sumo perportions...all makes, sizes, and
        models of wrestler were covered... (or uncovered, as it were...)

        The spirit was fierce, and the enthusiasm of the sumo-tori, as well as
        the crowd watching were grand!!!

        Perhaps a not weapon, martial convention might be adopted within the
        SCA...dare we hope?

        more thoughts from a Northern Samurai in service to a greater whole...

        - Date no Saburou Yukiie...
      • iroadkilli@aol.com
        I was stationed in japan from 1980 to 85 I beleave the match was in 82 . I have a few photos from it. I know Jesse was able to get away with a lot since he
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 1, 2003
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          I was stationed in japan from 1980 to 85 I beleave the match was in 82 . I
          have a few photos from it. I know Jesse was able to get away with a lot since
          he did not have to maintain face as much as the native japanese competetors,
          he was american and seemed to be enjoying himself a lot more than they were.
          the charity bouts I know were yearly and I am pretty sure that the base sumo
          club went to them several times over the years normally to play with Jesse. He
          won the Emperors cup in 1972 and when I met him was setting records as the
          longest competing westler on record.

          The book I refferenced before was Secrets of the Samurai, a survey of the
          martial arts of Feudal Japan, by Oscar Ratti/Adele Westbrook ISBN 0-8048-0917-8


          the Nihon Shoki chronicle compiled in A.D. 720 seems to date wrestling as
          early as 230 BC mostly with religous conotations. most early reference works
          refer to a bout during the 7th year of the reign of Emperor Suinin 29BC-A.D 70.
          between the imperial guard Taema-no-Kuehaya, and Nomi-no-Sukune of Izumo
          province. the match of the time allowed every imaginable technique and only one
          man emerged alive from the encounter. Nomi-no-Sukune broke Kuehaya's ribs and
          then smashed his loins for good measure.

          Sukune is also credited with producing a recognizable system that became the
          foundation for the development and evolution of wrestling along lines still
          evident in sumo today.

          in 858, Emperor Montoku allowed his two sones Korehito and Koretaka, to
          wrestle for the throne by proxy.

          Lethal blows and kicks were banned by imperial decree as "inelegant" during
          the reign of Emperor Shomu.

          In 1570 the ring (dohyo) was introduced and with it the fundamental rules
          establishing ranks, purposes, and basic techniques.

          the minimum size requirement governing recruits state that an aspiring
          sumotori of 18 or younger must be at lest 170 cm (5'8") tall and weigh at lest 70
          Kilos (154 lb) over 18 must be 173cm and 75kilos but that is to be a
          professional.

          In a message dated 6/1/03 4:39:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kabuto@...
          writes:

          > Out of curiosity, what year was this? I have seen this play enacted
          > out a few times...(...with all respects to those involved... )
          >
          > I know the origins of sumo are slightly older than the 1600's...but I
          > do not know when the rules were codefied...if a (demi)period demo
          > could be had at Pennsic...I would enjoy it...and participate, perhaps...
          >
          > Not all of the participants at the school I lived near were of
          > "supposedly" traditional sumo perportions...all makes, sizes, and
          > models of wrestler were covered... (or uncovered, as it were...)
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Richard Brooks
          Pretty wild:) I ve got a picture somewhere of a sumo wrestler being shoved out of the ring by several kids, I think it s from a canadian Sumo school someplace.
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 1, 2003
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            Pretty wild:) I've got a picture somewhere of a sumo wrestler being
            shoved out of the ring by several kids, I think it's from a canadian
            Sumo school someplace. Kinda cute, really.
            Just out of curiousity, are the traditional mawashi comfortable to wear
            at all? A few of my friends were debating this the other day.
            As for length, I've got a feeling that ten yards would be way too long
            for somebody who's only average sized, as opposed to Sumo proportions. I
            imagine anyone with an under 40" waist would need a bit less.

            -Amanita aka Hirokawa no Tsuru
          • Solveig
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! That story has to be pretty old. Takamiyama retired a long long time ago. Takamiyama was pretty popular, but he was
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 1, 2003
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig! That story has to be pretty old. Takamiyama retired
              a long long time ago. Takamiyama was pretty popular, but he was seriously
              over the hill a year or so before he retired. They tried to rig a tournament
              in his favor so that he could have a good send off. But he lost and shortly
              after that we was loosing almost all of his bouts and as I recall was
              actually demoted from the Seki no Uchi division before he finally gave up.

              All of the professional Sumo wrestlers are big boys. There are minimum
              height and weight requirements which assure this.
              --

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
              | the trash by my email filters. |
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            • Solveig
              Date Dono! Greetings from Solveig! ... The origins of Sumo are MUCh older than 1600. Sumo appears to go back to pre-historical Japan. That does not mean that
              Message 6 of 11 , Jun 1, 2003
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                Date Dono!

                Greetings from Solveig!
                >I know the origins of sumo are slightly older than the 1600's...but I
                >do not know when the rules were codefied...if a (demi)period demo
                >could be had at Pennsic...I would enjoy it...and participate, perhaps...

                The origins of Sumo are MUCh older than 1600. Sumo appears to go back
                to pre-historical Japan. That does not mean that modern Sumo predates
                the 19th century.
                --

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                | the trash by my email filters. |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              • Solveig
                Bad Solveig! That was the maki no uchi division. Watch what you time in future! -- Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur Scholar
                Message 7 of 11 , Jun 1, 2003
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                  Bad Solveig!

                  That was the maki'no'uchi division. Watch what you time in future!
                  --

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                • iroadkilli@aol.com
                  I have to admit the story shows my age as well. although 20 years didnt fill very long ago. The standards dont really require big guys the minimum size
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jun 1, 2003
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                    I have to admit the story shows my age as well. although 20 years didnt fill
                    very long ago.

                    The standards dont really require big guys the minimum size requirement
                    governing recruits state that an aspiring
                    sumotori of 18 or younger must be at lest 170 cm (5'8") tall and weigh at
                    lest 70 Kilos (154 lb) over 18 must be 173cm and 75kilos



                    In a message dated 6/1/03 1:31:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nostrand@...
                    writes:

                    > Greetings from Solveig! That story has to be pretty old. Takamiyama retired
                    > a long long time ago. Takamiyama was pretty popular, but he was seriously
                    > over the hill a year or so before he retired. They tried to rig a tournament
                    > in his favor so that he could have a good send off. But he lost and shortly
                    > after that we was loosing almost all of his bouts and as I recall was
                    > actually demoted from the Seki no Uchi division before he finally gave up.
                    >
                    > All of the professional Sumo wrestlers are big boys. There are minimum
                    > height and weight requirements which assure this.
                    > --
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Richard Brooks
                    Just how heavy is mawashi fabric anyway? Especially the nice silk ones. Is it similar in weight to cotton broadcloth? Bridal satin, or taffetta? Authentic silk
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jun 1, 2003
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                      Just how heavy is mawashi fabric anyway? Especially the nice silk ones.
                      Is it similar in weight to cotton broadcloth? Bridal satin, or taffetta?
                      Authentic silk satin is not something I can find around here, so I need
                      a good substitute that will approximate the weight and feel of the
                      originals. It also has to hold a knot well, so it does not slip.
                      Preferably something washable, as dry cleaning a stack of mawashi after
                      an SCA event would no doubt be a PITA, as well as expensive.

                      -Hirokawa no Tsuru
                    • ELAINE KOOGLER
                      If you really want silk satin, I believe that Thai silks has it...and at a fairly reasonable price. Their URL is www.thaisilks.com, and they are great to do
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jun 2, 2003
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                        If you really want silk satin, I believe that Thai silks has it...and
                        at a fairly reasonable price. Their URL is www.thaisilks.com, and they
                        are great to do business with!

                        Kiri



                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Richard Brooks <rjb@...>
                        Date: Sunday, June 1, 2003 11:49 pm
                        Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Kesho-Mawashi? and sumo story

                        > <span><p><span><p>
                        >
                        >
                        > <tt>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Just how heavy is mawashi fabric anyway? Especially the nice silk
                        > ones.
                        > Is it similar in weight to cotton broadcloth? Bridal satin, or
                        > taffetta?
                        > Authentic silk satin is not something I can find around here, so I
                        > need
                        > a good substitute that will approximate the weight and feel of the
                        >
                        > originals. It also has to hold a knot well, so it does not slip.
                        >
                        > Preferably something washable, as dry cleaning a stack of mawashi
                        > after
                        > an SCA event would no doubt be a PITA, as well as expensive.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -Hirokawa no Tsuru
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > </tt>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
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                      • Solveig
                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Those are not exactly itty bitty people. And, they are young and still growing. Add to that the weight-gain regimin
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jun 3, 2003
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                          Noble Cousin!

                          Greetings from Solveig!
                          > The standards dont really require big guys the minimum size requirement
                          >governing recruits state that an aspiring
                          >sumotori of 18 or younger must be at lest 170 cm (5'8") tall and weigh at
                          >lest 70 Kilos (154 lb) over 18 must be 173cm and 75kilos

                          Those are not exactly itty bitty people. And, they are young and still
                          growing. Add to that the weight-gain regimin they put them through and
                          they turn out pretty big. Even the little ones are usually big boys
                          by the time they make it into the juuryou division.
                          --

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar

                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                          | the trash by my email filters. |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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