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Re: [SCA-JML] Newbie Questions

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  • Solveig
    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Hideously post period, but there is a book about them: Edo Ketsubatsu Shi Published by Seiabou no ISBN There is a
    Message 1 of 10 , May 2 8:52 AM
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      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig!

      >1. Hair--Most of the info I've seen so far regarding period women's
      >hairstyles refers to long ponytails with "mutilated" lappets in
      >front. But in "Kimono," Liza Dalby mentions that more ornate up-dos
      >inspired by Chinese hairstyles began to become popular sometime in
      >the 16th century.

      Hideously post period, but there is a book about them:

      Edo Ketsubatsu Shi
      Published by Seiabou
      no ISBN

      There is a companion volume on Edo clothing:

      Edo Fukushoku Shi
      Published by Seiabou
      no ISBN

      You should know that a lot of Edo period fashion was developed through
      the interplay of the ladies of the water quarter and the onnagata of
      the kabuki theatre. Kabuki and especially the onnagata of Kabuki are
      post-period.

      As for jewelry. Jewelry has relatively little importance in medieval
      Japan either for men or for women. There were various kinds of regulated
      hat ornaments worn by male aristocrats and varioius functional objects
      were highly decorated.

      >I've seen some absolutely gorgeous wedding/geisha
      >wigs go up on eBay, and I would like to know if these styles, such as
      >the shimada-mage, are period--especially if you extend the definition
      >of "period" to early Edo pre-1650 (Yes, I know that Corpora says "pre-
      >17th century," but if we actually adhered to that, most of the
      >fencers and quite a few others would have to throw out their
      >wardrobes; my husband for example is a French Cavalier ca. 1625)--or
      >are they still completely OOP? What about the various hair ornaments-
      >-kanzashi, kushi, kogai, etc?

      Generally speaking, "traditional" wedding fashions were fixed about
      a hundred years ago.

      >2. Shoes--In modern Japan, geta are considered casual and zori
      >considered more formal. Was there a similar convention in (late)
      >period? Are pokkori--geta with lacquered platform soles & bells in
      >hollows in the platform--period?

      You should consider the basic function of geta. They are for:
      going to the toilet, going to the bath, and walking through
      the muck during rainy season. A few groups are generally
      associated with the things at other times such as certain monks.

      >3. Kimono--How feasible would it be to adapt a mordern kimono or
      >uchikake? I've found a website that offers beautiful Oriental-
      >patterned cotton prints but haven't had much luck finding silk with
      >similar quality patterns (mostly since I think most of the patterning
      >for fine kimono is done after the kimono is put together via painting
      >or embroidery). But I can find plenty of lovely kimono on eBay . . .
      >Also, did kimono hemlines trail at all in period? Liza Dalby says
      >no, but I've seen pictures that do, so I'm a bit confused.

      The reality is that most people will not know the difference. Otherwsie,
      you should know that they are cut differently and that you are better of
      making your clothes from fabric stock rather than trying to modify
      existing clothing.

      >wear), I might consider that. And from what little I've read, while
      >Japanese women didn't wear what we Westerners traditionally think of
      >as jewelry--necklaces, earrings, etc--they did seem to go in for hair
      >ornaments, at least by some point in the Edo period. I just need to
      >know if that point happens to fall before or after 1650. Could you
      >recommend some good sources to look at paintings of the period?

      The basic style is to make a ponytail and then to tie the ponytail up.
      Lacquered hair combs appear in quite a few illustrations. Also, the
      hair ties sometimes have pompoms at their ends.

      Typically fabric is either woven with a pattern in it or it is printed
      using any number of printing techniques. Hand painting and embroidery
      are less common.

      >I will mention that many of us use the 1600 deadline because it is very
      >easy: that's the year of the Battle of Sekigahara (the effective end of
      >the Toyotomi regime) and then you don't have to worry about if that 'Edo
      >period' piece is within your period of study or not.

      Also, Japan has the happy good fortune of having its medieval period
      actually end at the SCA cut-off date. Post 1600 is called kinsei instead
      of chuusei in Japanese history books. Just because a lot of people in the
      Society choose to do post 1600 stuff doesn't mean that we should. We are
      held with suspicion and contempt by too many in the Society already! So yes,
      there are people wearing levi's, peasant shirts, and motor cycle boots
      drinking potato vodka and dancing dances created in the United States by
      Ukranian immigrants just one hundred years ago, but those interested in Japan
      should strive to do better.

      > Zori--I recall seeing a few of what appeared to be zori, but I
      >seem to recall it was for upper class women.

      Zori are dress shoes. Especially today, women's zori look different from
      men's zori, but zori are worn by both men and women.

      Check out the costume museum for good ideas about what women wore
      when walking around outside. Yes, these costumes can be significantly
      different from what
      court ladies wore indoors. Also, please note that even court ladies received
      cloth for new clothes considerably less often than we may imagine.

      http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/index.htm
      --

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar

      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
      | the trash by my email filters. |
      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
    • genevra1676
      ... dos ... I got a book in the mail yesterday about traditional Japanese hairstyles (huzzah eBay)--don t know the name, as it is all in Japanese. But it does
      Message 2 of 10 , May 2 11:41 AM
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        > Noble Cousin!
        >
        > Greetings from Solveig!
        >
        > >1. Hair--Most of the info I've seen so far regarding period women's
        > >hairstyles refers to long ponytails with "mutilated" lappets in
        > >front. But in "Kimono," Liza Dalby mentions that more ornate up-
        dos
        > >inspired by Chinese hairstyles began to become popular sometime in
        > >the 16th century.
        >
        > Hideously post period, but there is a book about them:
        >
        > Edo Ketsubatsu Shi
        > Published by Seiabou
        > no ISBN
        >
        I got a book in the mail yesterday about traditional Japanese
        hairstyles (huzzah eBay)--don't know the name, as it is all in
        Japanese. But it does have dates in it, and so does confirm what
        people have told me so far--namely that the majority of updos didn't
        appear until well after the end of SCA period. The couple that the
        book indicated were pre-1650 I didn't particularly care for, so it
        looks like the long ponytail is the best way to go. Fortunately my
        hair is naturally long and black, but it is decidedly NOT straight.
        Since I don't know if I want to spend an hour or more before events
        trying to blowdry my hair straight, does anyone know of someplace
        where one can find a wig that doesn't look too fake yet won't cost an
        arm & a leg?

        >
        > >2. Shoes--In modern Japan, geta are considered casual and zori
        > >considered more formal. Was there a similar convention in (late)
        > >period? Are pokkori--geta with lacquered platform soles & bells in
        > >hollows in the platform--period?
        >
        > You should consider the basic function of geta. They are for:
        > going to the toilet, going to the bath, and walking through
        > the muck during rainy season. A few groups are generally
        > associated with the things at other times such as certain monks.
        >
        So would it be a safe bet to get a pair of geta to wear outdoors
        (particularly at Pennsic) and a pair of zori to wear at indoor events
        (since most event floors aren't covered with clean tatami mats)?
        >
        >
        > >I will mention that many of us use the 1600 deadline because it is
        very
        > >easy: that's the year of the Battle of Sekigahara (the effective
        end of
        > >the Toyotomi regime) and then you don't have to worry about if
        that 'Edo
        > >period' piece is within your period of study or not.
        >
        > Also, Japan has the happy good fortune of having its medieval period
        > actually end at the SCA cut-off date. Post 1600 is called kinsei
        instead
        > of chuusei in Japanese history books. Just because a lot of people
        in the
        > Society choose to do post 1600 stuff doesn't mean that we should.
        We are
        > held with suspicion and contempt by too many in the Society
        already! So yes,
        > there are people wearing levi's, peasant shirts, and motor cycle
        boots
        > drinking potato vodka and dancing dances created in the United
        States by
        > Ukranian immigrants just one hundred years ago, but those
        interested in Japan
        > should strive to do better.
        >
        Not to be argumentative, but there are also plenty of people who do
        post-1600 (but generally pre-1650) in a historically accurate fashion-
        -namely the numerous folk who do Cavalier garb and persona. My lord,
        for example, is a French falconer from ca. 1625, and he can document
        his garb better than many people who do earlier period stuff. And
        I'd certainly rather stand next to someone doing post-1600 Cavalier
        well than someone who throws a T-tunic over a pair of sweatpants and
        thinks they're period.

        Thank you for the additional information!

        Genevra
      • Don Luby
        ... Welcome! Enjoy! ... A most excellent book - I always recommend it. ... Yes, that s pretty much what I ve been led to believe is the norm, at least for
        Message 3 of 10 , May 2 3:35 PM
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          On Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 11:50 AM, genevra1676 wrote:

          > Hi!!
          >
          > I've been in the SCA for a number of years under a late-15th century
          > French persona, but I've recently become interested in creating an
          > alternate Japanese persona, most likely late period (late Muromachi
          > or early Edo).

          Welcome! Enjoy!

          > I've so far picked up Liza Dalby's "Kimono: Fashioning Culture,"

          A most excellent book - I always recommend it.

          > read some info on the Web from fine websites such as those by Clan
          > Yama Kaminari, Clan Genji, Lord Hiraizumi Ttrokurt Tadanobu no Ason,
          > and the F{zoku Hakubutsukan in Kyoto, and surfed eBay for
          > Japanese-related stuff. But as it is not easy to find books on
          > period Japanese garb & its accessories, I have a number of questions
          > that I hope you good gentles can help me with:

          > 1. Hair--Most of the info I've seen so far regarding period women's
          > hairstyles refers to long ponytails with "mutilated" lappets in
          > front.

          Yes, that's pretty much what I've been led to believe is the norm,
          at least for 'ladies' (i.e. of the nobility, which we're all
          "supposed" to be).

          > But in "Kimono," Liza Dalby mentions that more ornate up-dos
          > inspired by Chinese hairstyles began to become popular sometime in the
          > 16th century.

          I have never really heard of it, and it never seems to show up in
          the period paintings and woodblocks, so I'd believe they are rather
          uncommon, or for particular occassions or some such.

          > I've seen some absolutely gorgeous wedding/geisha wigs go up on
          > eBay, and I would like to know if these styles, such as the
          > shimada-mage, are period

          For women of 'rank', personally, I'd doubt it - their hair would
          have been 'trained' since childhood, and wouldn't have had a need for
          them, really.

          > --especially if you extend the definition of "period" to early Edo
          > pre-1650 (Yes, I know that Corpora says "pre-17th century," but if
          > we actually adhered to that, most of the fencers and quite a few
          > others would have to throw out their wardrobes; my husband for
          > example is a French Cavalier ca. 1625) --or are they still
          > completely OOP?

          <rant>

          The way it was explained to me when I joined, lo those many years
          ago, was that period ended at 1600 (well, maybe 1603 for the death of
          Elizabeth and the founding of the Tokugawa Shogunate) *period*. You
          could uses sources that were written as late as 1650, but only to
          document things that existed and were in moderately common usage
          before 1600 (many dance directions and pieces of music fall into that
          category). Thus, in my opinion, anything which came into vogue after
          1600, including Cavaliers, Roundheads, and everything Tokugawa (which
          would cover female geisha, Musashi, and whole host of other 'common'
          Japanese stuff), was right out, because not only did they not exist in
          regular usage, but they didn't even really exist in concept.

          </rant>

          So, using the two relevant issues here (class of persona, and
          'period'ness), I would expect that at least one of these two points
          would make such a wig inappropriate.

          > What about the various hair ornaments--kanzashi, kushi, kogai, etc?

          I think most of those existed, but that's not my speciality, so I
          couldn't say for certain.

          > 2. Shoes--In modern Japan, geta are considered casual and zori
          > considered more formal. Was there a similar convention in (late)
          > period? Are pokkori--geta with lacquered platform soles & bells in
          > hollows in the platform--period?

          Well, I would think that in period, geta would be 'outdoors' shoes,
          and zori would be 'indoors' (for as much as shoes were worn indoors),
          so I could see that as the basis for formal/casual.
          As for pokkori, I'm pretty sure they're *not* period, at least not
          for the kind of persona you seem to want.

          > 3. Kimono--How feasible would it be to adapt a mordern kimono or uchikake?

          Adapting it would be fairly difficult; OTOH, if you're just wearing
          it to have pretty-looking Japanese garb, I don't think you'd really
          *need* to adapt it - the patterns aren't that different, really, and
          most people won't be able to tell the difference anyway.

          > I've found a website that offers beautiful Oriental-patterned cotton
          > prints but haven't had much luck finding silk with similar quality
          > patterns

          There are a number of sites which sell kimono bolts (and
          occasionally on eBay as well), and the many of them are silk.

          > (mostly since I think most of the patterning for fine kimono is done
          > after the kimono is put together via painting or embroidery).

          AFAIK, no, not really, at least not very often in period - mostly it
          was patterned on the bolt, and then sewed together very meticulously.

          > But I can find plenty of lovely kimono on eBay . . .
          > Also, did kimono hemlines trail at all in period? Liza Dalby says
          > no, but I've seen pictures that do, so I'm a bit confused.

          I've always assumed that they do, at least for women, based on the
          pictures I've seen. From a practical point of view, your need to
          weigh that against it dragging in the dirt (since I would think that
          most of those garments would be 'indoors only') and sitting for feast
          in chairs (as opposed to kneeling on the floor).

          > That's all for the moment, although I'm sure I'll come up with more
          > questions soon. Domo arigato,
          >
          > Genevra d'Angouleme (for the moment) :)


          Sir Koredono

          -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no Koredono, KSCA
          djl@... Yama-kaminari-ryu
          Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands, AEthelmearc
        • Rosemary Norwood
          ... Male Geisha existed in the early 1600s. Female Geisha didn t appear until 1751 according to Liza Dalby s Geisha . -Tatsu.
          Message 4 of 10 , May 2 4:52 PM
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            On Thu, May 01, 2003 at 06:37:00PM -0000, genevra1676 wrote:
            >
            > Were geisha period (to Momoyama or early Edo)? I'm not sure yet what
            > class I want to be yet, although if being geisha or rich merchant-
            > class would give me more options in the wearing of "pretties" (since
            > this is before the sumptuary laws restricting what non-nobles could

            Male Geisha existed in the early 1600s. Female Geisha didn't appear
            until 1751 according to Liza Dalby's 'Geisha'.

            -Tatsu.
          • Anthony J. Bryant
            ... HI!!!! Effingham ... show France how you feel: just say non http://www.cafeshops.com/justsaynon
            Message 5 of 10 , May 3 3:40 PM
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              ELAINE KOOGLER wrote:

              >
              > My pleasure. I just hope I've been of some help to you. Trust me...I
              > started this about 23 years ago, and there was even less available
              > then...no Dalby, none of what you mentioned above...except Hiraizumi-
              > dono...my very old, dear friend!

              HI!!!! <waving like a demented lunatic from waaay over here>


              Effingham
              ---------
              show France how you feel: just say "non"
              http://www.cafeshops.com/justsaynon
            • Solveig
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Very very few Japanese have hair that is actually straight. Most have slightly wavy hair. I know Japanese who have
              Message 6 of 10 , May 3 7:03 PM
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig!

                >I got a book in the mail yesterday about traditional Japanese
                >hairstyles (huzzah eBay)--don't know the name, as it is all in
                >Japanese. But it does have dates in it, and so does confirm what
                >people have told me so far--namely that the majority of updos didn't
                >appear until well after the end of SCA period. The couple that the
                >book indicated were pre-1650 I didn't particularly care for, so it
                >looks like the long ponytail is the best way to go. Fortunately my
                >hair is naturally long and black, but it is decidedly NOT straight.
                >Since I don't know if I want to spend an hour or more before events
                >trying to blowdry my hair straight, does anyone know of someplace
                >where one can find a wig that doesn't look too fake yet won't cost an
                >arm & a leg?

                Very very few Japanese have hair that is actually straight. Most have
                slightly wavy hair. I know Japanese who have tightly curly hair. I
                even know a Japanese with brown hair and I have seen Japanese albinos.

                Japan being monogenetic is a modern myth.

                > > You should consider the basic function of geta. They are for:
                >> going to the toilet, going to the bath, and walking through
                >> the muck during rainy season. A few groups are generally
                >> associated with the things at other times such as certain monks.
                >>
                >So would it be a safe bet to get a pair of geta to wear outdoors
                >(particularly at Pennsic) and a pair of zori to wear at indoor events
                >(since most event floors aren't covered with clean tatami mats)?

                Technically, zouri are outdoor shoes. You wear other shoes indoors and
                you never wear shoes on tatami. Basic rule of shoe usage in Japan,
                everytime you change level, you change footwear. Baths and toilets
                are either elevated or depressed with respect to the hall and have
                toilet shoes waiting for you inside. You wear slippers or other
                shoes in hallways, and you wear tabi or socks on tatami.

                I can guarantee that zouri are worn outdoors. One of their main features
                is that they have flat bottoms as opposed to geta which are elevated.
                Incidentally, although they are now generally made out of other materials,
                the kanji for writing the word indicates that they were originally made
                from straw or similar vegitable material.

                >Not to be argumentative, but there are also plenty of people who do
                >post-1600 (but generally pre-1650) in a historically accurate fashion-
                >-namely the numerous folk who do Cavalier garb and persona. My lord,
                >for example, is a French falconer from ca. 1625, and he can document
                >his garb better than many people who do earlier period stuff. And
                >I'd certainly rather stand next to someone doing post-1600 Cavalier
                >well than someone who throws a T-tunic over a pair of sweatpants and
                >thinks they're period.

                Baron El of the Two Knives insists that the cutoff IS 1650, but the
                documents do say 1600. Since there are lots of anti-Asians in the
                Society, it is best to be clearly pre 17th century.
                --

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                | the trash by my email filters. |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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