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Re: Newbie questions

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  • Susan and Frank Downs
    (Delurk mode on) Genevra-for-the-moment asked for some good books for Momoyama (or later) costume. My personal favorites: Tsujigahana: the Flower of Japanese
    Message 1 of 4 , May 1, 2003
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      (Delurk mode on)

      Genevra-for-the-moment asked for some good books for Momoyama (or later)
      costume.

      My personal favorites:

      Tsujigahana: the Flower of Japanese Textile Art by Toshiko Ito
      All about the revolutions in fabric surface decoration that occurred during
      the Momoyama era (it'll show you what late-period fabric looked like)

      Japanese Costume and Textile Arts by Seiroku Noma
      Not just what they wore, but why they wore it!

      Japanese Costume: History and Tradition by Alan Kennedy
      Pretty good; not as detailed as the two above.

      Also check out this website, for the Kyoto Costume Museum
      http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/index.htm

      REALLY useful for seeing the difference between the way period kosode fit
      and the way modern kimono work. Kosode aren't quite the same; the body
      pieces are wider, and the sleeves are a bit more rounded at the bottom than
      modern ones.

      I also recommend watching Akira Kurosawa's Ran, just to watch Kaede undress
      and re-clothe herself; very educational!

      Sakakiya Maroe
      (Kiri-sensei's protege, who's been a Momoyama Mama for 20 years)
    • genevra1676
      Domo arigato, Maroe-hime! I found someone online who was selling the 2nd & 3rd book on your list, so I should be getting them sometime next week. :) How would
      Message 2 of 4 , May 2, 2003
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        Domo arigato, Maroe-hime! I found someone online who was selling the
        2nd & 3rd book on your list, so I should be getting them sometime
        next week. :)

        How would what you mentioned about kosode panels generally being
        somewhat wider than modern kimono panels (16" instead of 14", yes?)
        affect modifying a modern kimono to look more period? I assume that,
        then as now, the body panels were sewn with wider or narrower seam
        allowances to accommodate a person's size (no matter the original
        size of the panel). So to look more period, should I leave the
        kosode looser or what? Thanks again,

        Genevra

        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Susan and Frank Downs <sfdowns@p...>
        wrote:
        > (Delurk mode on)
        >
        > Genevra-for-the-moment asked for some good books for Momoyama (or
        later)
        > costume.
        >
        > My personal favorites:
        >
        > Tsujigahana: the Flower of Japanese Textile Art by Toshiko Ito
        > All about the revolutions in fabric surface decoration that
        occurred during
        > the Momoyama era (it'll show you what late-period fabric looked
        like)
        >
        > Japanese Costume and Textile Arts by Seiroku Noma
        > Not just what they wore, but why they wore it!
        >
        > Japanese Costume: History and Tradition by Alan Kennedy
        > Pretty good; not as detailed as the two above.
        >
        > Also check out this website, for the Kyoto Costume Museum
        > http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/index.htm
        >
        > REALLY useful for seeing the difference between the way period
        kosode fit
        > and the way modern kimono work. Kosode aren't quite the same; the
        body
        > pieces are wider, and the sleeves are a bit more rounded at the
        bottom than
        > modern ones.
        >
        > I also recommend watching Akira Kurosawa's Ran, just to watch Kaede
        undress
        > and re-clothe herself; very educational!
        >
        > Sakakiya Maroe
        > (Kiri-sensei's protege, who's been a Momoyama Mama for 20 years)
      • Anthony J. Bryant
        ... My personal take on this -- trying to keep it from becoming a screed -- is that modern kimono are totally inappropriate for SCA use. Not only do the cuts
        Message 3 of 4 , May 3, 2003
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          genevra1676 wrote:

          > How would what you mentioned about kosode panels generally being
          > somewhat wider than modern kimono panels (16" instead of 14", yes?)
          > affect modifying a modern kimono to look more period? I assume that,
          > then as now, the body panels were sewn with wider or narrower seam
          > allowances to accommodate a person's size (no matter the original
          > size of the panel). So to look more period, should I leave the
          > kosode looser or what? Thanks again,

          My personal take on this -- trying to keep it from becoming a screed -- is that modern
          kimono are totally inappropriate for SCA use. Not only do the cuts differ, the very size
          of the fabric used differs, and the *patterns* printed or woven on the cloth differs. They
          are *not* the same garments, any more than blue jeans or farrah slacks are acceptable in a
          period milieu. (Hey, they had pants. And the only thing different is the cut of the cloth
          and the pattern, and maybe how some bits are put together...)

          People who understand garb know that prom and wedding dresses don't belong in the medieval
          setting, even though *they* had full gowns with wide collars and puffy sleeves. They were
          *not* the same thing.

          Unless you are a child, you can't take a modern kimono and cut it to anything
          approximating a period one. The fabric panels are just too radically narrow (period panels
          being between 18-24 inches wide, and modern ones typically 14).

          Once you're beyond the fabric size issue, you have the fabric design issue. Other than a
          handful of women's designs, which are typically more floral and free, there are very
          (read: VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY) few places where one can find a fabric pattern that
          actually looks period. They tended to be repetitious patterns and were very large, often
          with elements about 4-6" across. I've seen bolts with a proper period design, but the
          elements had been reduced to about 2" across to more subdued modern tastes. I didn't buy
          it. It didn't look right to *me*.

          Effingham
          ---------
          show France how you feel: just say "non"
          http://www.cafeshops.com/justsaynon
        • Solveig
          Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... I ve seen the repeated blue and white arrow fletching pattern, but I think that was at a textile museum in kansai.
          Message 4 of 4 , May 3, 2003
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            Noble Cousins!

            Greetings from Solveig!


            >Once you're beyond the fabric size issue, you have the fabric design
            >issue. Other than a handful of women's designs, which are typically
            >more floral and free, there are very (read: VERY VERY VERY VERY
            >VERY) few places where one can find a fabric pattern that actually
            >looks period. They tended to be repetitious patterns and were very
            >large, often with elements about 4-6" across. I've seen bolts with a
            >proper period design, but the elements had been reduced to about 2"
            >across to more subdued modern tastes. I didn't buy
            >it. It didn't look right to *me*.

            I've seen the repeated blue and white arrow fletching pattern, but I think
            that was at a textile museum in kansai. That pattern does show up on page
            34 of The Guide to Japanese Literature. Basically, my recollection agrees
            strongly with that of Baron Edward. Generally speaking, the farther back
            you look, the bigger the prints get. In period, you will have huge kamon
            repetitiously printed all over the fabric. Those standard 5 kamon spots
            on the breast sleaves and back are pretty recent dating from maybe the
            end of the sixteenth century. Non kamon patterns were similarly large.
            --

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

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