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Re: First Post! a few amor questions

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  • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
    Greetings to you in return, tomodachi, ... ...I think we all would prefer to dodge blows, rather than have the need to block them! Not being where the attack
    Message 1 of 9 , May 1, 2003
      Greetings to you in return, tomodachi,

      >I have always
      > been a fan of japanese culture, and decided that it would be an
      > injustice for me to continue under false pretences (I am a celt by
      > blood, but who's counting). so anyway, i am trying to make the most
      > accurate armor i can, for combat of course, but the way i want to go
      > with it is a bit strange. I am a student of togakure ryu bujinkan,
      > a.k.a. ninjutsu, and so i am going to have a ninja persona. but of
      > course i dont want anyone to know that, so i am going to pretend to
      > be a samurai. so here are my questions
      >
      > 1. i prefer to dodge blows rather than block them, but in the only
      > armor ive fought in, late 16th european plate, there was no
      > possibility for this. plus i am a bit on the large side of the size
      > scale, what pattern of do should i use?
      >
      ...I think we all would prefer to dodge blows, rather than have the
      need to block them! Not being where the attack is, is a stronger
      defence than hoping you can put something in the middle of you and
      someone else's weapon!

      >i noticed that all the sode had a few rows of red laceing at the
      bottom, is that because they all had them, or would it be ok if i
      change that to black? i hate red.

      ...Armors throughout the various periods used different colors for the
      hishinui at the bottom of plates. At first, these were just red
      lacquered leather lacing that was used to bind the scales together.
      This added a pleasant contrast to the base color of the armor, and
      sometimes the odoshi (lacing)
      Later, and in more fancier armors, thicker odoshi, like that used in
      the rest of the armor was used, but it was not always red. Kon (a deep
      blue color), a pale sort of sickley avacado green (can you tell how
      much I like that color?) and even black were used, so do not feel
      constrained to use red. Some late period armors even did away with the
      hishinui decoration altogether...

      >
      > 4. although i personally have much in the way of financial freedom, a
      > shinobi playing samurai probably wouldnt, so i want to make my armor
      > seem cheap, by 1600's japanese measurements, what can i do to
      > accomplish this, without sacrificing period style, or accuracy?


      A "person" of your chosen profession could easilly use "found" items
      from the battlefield, and I suppose it would be quite possible to wear
      bits and pieces to suit you. Two different style and colored kote
      (sleaves), a do laced with one patern, matched to sode and kusadzuri
      from other suits...I am sure you get the idea. This way you could
      experiment with what suits your mobile style of combat, and look
      entirely period. Ashigaru in late period were known to wear what they
      could get their hands on. Unless you "worked" for someone who dressed
      their men in similar suits, then this might be a good way to go.
      That, and a good study of the mannerisms and ways of the people you
      are imitating...but you knew that...didn't you! :-)



      Date-

      Date Saburou Yukiie
      Shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the grave
      http://www.kabutographics.com
      kabuto@...
    • Ii Saburou
      ... Whatever you like. The later period variants tend to be made more for fighting on foot than the early period versions. You are still going to be under the
      Message 2 of 9 , May 1, 2003
        On Thu, 1 May 2003, raimarusan wrote:

        > 1. i prefer to dodge blows rather than block them, but in the only
        > armor ive fought in, late 16th european plate, there was no
        > possibility for this. plus i am a bit on the large side of the size
        > scale, what pattern of do should i use?

        Whatever you like. The later period variants tend to be made more for
        fighting on foot than the early period versions.

        You are still going to be under the SCA regulations, and the SCA fighting
        styles. Not that you can't do it, but I'm not sure that Japanese armour
        necessarily makes this any easier than a good western suit--and you have
        to add additional bits (elbow couters, gauntlets, and metal that is thick
        enough to not deform under constant 'killing blows').

        > 2. I was looking at baron edward of effingham's site, and i noticed
        > that all the sode had a few rows of red laceing at the bottom, is
        > that because they all had them, or would it be ok if i change that to
        > black? i hate red.

        Red is traditional. You so see some that don't have it--I'm thinking in
        particular of a black do laced in blue.

        Perhaps the best way is to find a do that you like and try to copy that
        style.

        > 3. does anyone know a website that has instrucions for constructing a
        > katana out of rattan? i cant find one anywhere.

        Out of curiosity, has anyone found that making a 'katana' with sori and
        all is actually useful in the SCA?

        I would recommend making a long sword that is comfortable for you and your
        fighting style and if you wish to limit yourself to a single edge, only
        tape one edge. Personally, rattan is so far removed from an actual katana
        that I really don't think it makes much difference to me, but YMMV.

        > 4. although i personally have much in the way of financial freedom, a
        > shinobi playing samurai probably wouldnt, so i want to make my armor
        > seem cheap, by 1600's japanese measurements, what can i do to
        > accomplish this, without sacrificing period style, or accuracy?

        Well, the main problems are going to be the SCA impositions. The easiest
        things to do, however, are things such as making clothes that will go over
        much of the armour.

        Truly cheap armour would have you probably wearing a do and not much else,
        including clothing (fundoshi and waraji). However, you probably want more
        than that.


        -Ii
      • raimarusan
        thanks i think the clothes over armor idea is just what im looking for, consequently, i went back over the site, for like the five millionth time, and i have
        Message 3 of 9 , May 1, 2003
          thanks i think the clothes over armor idea is just what im looking
          for, consequently, i went back over the site, for like the five
          millionth time, and i have decided to go with the black laquer/ kon
          lacing theme, thanks.
        • Bill Fornshell
          Hi, I don t know if this book has ever been talked about. You might want to try and find it. It is called Samurai Undressed by Jacqui Carey. It was published
          Message 4 of 9 , May 1, 2003
            Hi, I don't know if this book has ever been talked
            about. You might want to try and find it. It is called
            "Samurai Undressed" by Jacqui Carey. It was published
            in 1995, ISBN 095232251x. It is 80 pages and cost
            about $18. I would try a internet search to find the
            book. It was published in England and did not show up
            on my Library Book Search Program for US libraries. It
            is a small size book that is about "The Braiding
            Part" of the armour.
            http://www.careycompany.com/sam-undress.html
            I own the book if you want to know more about it.
            Bill
            --- raimarusan <raimaru@...> wrote:
            > thanks i think the clothes over armor idea is just
            > what im looking
            > for, consequently, i went back over the site, for
            > like the five
            > millionth time, and i have decided to go with the
            > black laquer/ kon
            > lacing theme, thanks.
            >
            >





            =====
            Bill Fornshell
            Founder and President
            Cold Mountain Chanoyu
            (Tea School for the New Millennium)
            School of One
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ColdMtnChado

            __________________________________
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          • Don Luby
            ... Well, I m not sure what you mean by large side of the size scale , but a number of the fighters in Yama Kaminari (including myself) might fit that
            Message 5 of 9 , May 2, 2003
              On Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 01:41 PM, raimarusan wrote:

              > greetings fellow anachronists!
              > I have been going to sca events for a while now, and so far ive been
              > going in the guise of an early period celt. but a few events ago i
              > saw someone there that was dressed in japanese garb. I have always
              > been a fan of japanese culture, and decided that it would be an
              > injustice for me to continue under false pretences (I am a celt by
              > blood, but who's counting). so anyway, i am trying to make the most
              > accurate armor i can, for combat of course, but the way i want to go
              > with it is a bit strange. I am a student of togakure ryu bujinkan,
              > a.k.a. ninjutsu, and so i am going to have a ninja persona. but of
              > course i dont want anyone to know that, so i am going to pretend to
              > be a samurai. so here are my questions
              >
              > 1. i prefer to dodge blows rather than block them, but in the only
              > armor i've fought in, late 16th european plate, there was no
              > possibility for this. plus i am a bit on the large side of the size
              > scale, what pattern of do should i use?

              Well, I'm not sure what you mean by 'large side of the size scale',
              but a number of the fighters in Yama Kaminari (including myself) might
              fit that description, being 6' - 6' 3" and 220# - 280#, and that
              pattern works well for us.

              > 2. I was looking at baron edward of effingham's site, and i noticed
              > that all the sode had a few rows of red laceing at the bottom, is that
              > because they all had them, or would it be ok if i change that to
              > black? i hate red.

              I think that's just a color preference on his part - for example, my
              sode are laced red, with a few rows of white on the bottom. There are
              some pics of other yoroi in the folder for this group on Yahoo that
              have other lacing color schemes, and are quite fine.

              > 3. does anyone know a website that has instrucions for constructing
              > a katana out of rattan? i cant find one anywhere.

              It's a stick. :)
              Seriously, though, it has to follow your kingdom's greatsword
              requirements (length, length of hilt, guard/tsuba, thrusting tip if
              you want one, &c) and the Society's marshallate policies (1.25"
              minimum width, the blade being taped appropriately, &c). Various
              people have different preferences, based on combat style and taste -
              my katanas have a blade length of [hand-at-top-of-hilt to big toe with
              arm relaxed], a hilt of 15", and planed down to 1.25" for its entire
              length.

              > 4. although i personally have much in the way of financial freedom,
              > a shinobi playing samurai probably wouldnt, so i want to make my
              > armor seem cheap, by 1600's japanese measurements, what can i do to
              > accomplish this, without sacrificing period style, or accuracy?

              Go for something ashigaru-looking, with the appropriate armored bits
              to be legal (and safe) wherever you're fighting.

              > thats all for now, any help would be appreciated. <<bows>>




              Sir Koredono

              -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no Koredono, KSCA
              djl@... Yama-kaminari-ryu
              Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands, AEthelmearc
            • toshio
              ... Would not the best way to avoid detection as a ninja would be to dress as a Celt? ... that all the sode had a few rows of red laceing at the bottom, is
              Message 6 of 9 , May 2, 2003
                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Don Luby <djl@t...> wrote:
                > On Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 01:41 PM, raimarusan wrote:
                >
                > greetings fellow anachronists!
                > I have been going to sca events for a while now, and so far ive
                >been going in the guise of an early period celt. but a few events
                >ago i saw someone there that was dressed in japanese garb. I have
                >always been a fan of japanese culture, and decided that it would be
                >an injustice for me to continue under false pretences (I am a celt by
                > blood, but who's counting). so anyway, i am trying to make the
                >most accurate armor i can, for combat of course, but the way i want
                >to go with it is a bit strange. I am a student of togakure ryu
                >bujinkan, a.k.a. ninjutsu, and so i am going to have a ninja
                >persona. but of course i dont want anyone to know that, so i am
                >going to pretend to be a samurai. so here are my questions

                Would not the best way to avoid detection
                as a ninja would be to dress as a Celt?

                > 2. I was looking at baron edward of effingham's site, and i noticed
                that all the sode had a few rows of red laceing at the bottom, is
                that because they all had them, or would it be ok if i change that to
                black? i hate red.

                Using red for hishinui, the binding laces on the hishinui-no-ita (the
                bottom most row of kozane or plates) is traditional, regardless of
                the color of the vertical lacing used. There were armors laced
                entirely in black, purple, green, but almost always with a
                contrasting color used for hishinui. The left and right most lacing
                on each section of armor is called the Mimi ito and is always some
                contrasting color or multi-colored braid unless you are recreating
                the Wal-Mart special knock-off armors of ashigaru.

                > 3. does anyone know a website that has instrucions for constructing
                >a katana out of rattan? i cant find one anywhere.

                As Koredono-Sensei says, it's a stick. Drop by the Yama-Kaminari
                camp at Pennsic and we'd be happy to help you in your research.

                > 4. although i personally have much in the way of financial
                >freedom, a shinobi playing samurai probably wouldnt, so i want to
                >make my armor seem cheap, by 1600's japanese measurements, what can
                >i do to accomplish this, without sacrificing period style, or
                >accuracy?

                You might try one of the "mat" type of armors, using hexagonal plates
                connected by chainmail to a fabric backing. That's pretty cheap and
                easy to wear modern or european joint protection underneath without
                sacrificing your appearance or safety.

                Toshinobu
              • raimarusan
                of course the best way to avoid detection would be to dress as a celt, but thats not as fun now is it?
                Message 7 of 9 , May 2, 2003
                  of course the best way to avoid detection would be to dress as a
                  celt, but thats not as fun now is it?
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