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RE: [SCA-JML] First Post! a few amor questions

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  • Choronzey, Marc
    Konnichiwa! Personally, I play a sohei of the same period... I would say just prior to Nobunaga s burning of Henryaku-ji... and I am making myself a clamshell
    Message 1 of 9 , May 1, 2003
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      Konnichiwa!

      Personally, I play a sohei of the same period... I would say just prior to
      Nobunaga's burning of Henryaku-ji... and I am making myself a clamshell do
      based on the patterns provided by Effingham-dono but modified to my size
      (54" chest) with no haidate or kikko-laminated knees on the suneate. But
      then again, playing a non-samurai, I am aiming for more of a munition-grade
      do... my one concession is sugake lacing because I like it much better than
      a riveted do.

      Ganbatte!

      -Hozo-ji no Hebikagebo Shisen.
      -Marc Choronzey
      Support SAC, BMC Montreal
      work : 514.420.3221
      Page : 514.414.0907
      Cell : 514.917.4764

      > -----Message d'origine-----
      > De: raimarusan
      > Date: Thursday, May 01, 2003 1:41 PM
      > À: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      > Objet: [SCA-JML] First Post! a few amor questions
      >
      > greetings fellow anachronists!
      > I have been going to sca events for a while now, and so far ive been
      > going in the guise of an early period celt. but a few events ago i
      > saw someone there that was dressed in japanese garb. I have always
      > been a fan of japanese culture, and decided that it would be an
      > injustice for me to continue under false pretences (I am a celt by
      > blood, but who's counting). so anyway, i am trying to make the most
      > accurate armor i can, for combat of course, but the way i want to go
      > with it is a bit strange. I am a student of togakure ryu bujinkan,
      > a.k.a. ninjutsu, and so i am going to have a ninja persona. but of
      > course i dont want anyone to know that, so i am going to pretend to
      > be a samurai. so here are my questions
      >
      > 1. i prefer to dodge blows rather than block them, but in the only
      > armor ive fought in, late 16th european plate, there was no
      > possibility for this. plus i am a bit on the large side of the size
      > scale, what pattern of do should i use?
      >
      > 2. I was looking at baron edward of effingham's site, and i noticed
      > that all the sode had a few rows of red laceing at the bottom, is
      > that because they all had them, or would it be ok if i change that to
      > black? i hate red.
      >
      > 3. does anyone know a website that has instrucions for constructing a
      > katana out of rattan? i cant find one anywhere.
      >
      > 4. although i personally have much in the way of financial freedom, a
      > shinobi playing samurai probably wouldnt, so i want to make my armor
      > seem cheap, by 1600's japanese measurements, what can i do to
      > accomplish this, without sacrificing period style, or accuracy?
      >
      > thats all for now, any help would be appreciated. <<bows>>
      >
      >
      >
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      >
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    • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
      Greetings to you in return, tomodachi, ... ...I think we all would prefer to dodge blows, rather than have the need to block them! Not being where the attack
      Message 2 of 9 , May 1, 2003
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        Greetings to you in return, tomodachi,

        >I have always
        > been a fan of japanese culture, and decided that it would be an
        > injustice for me to continue under false pretences (I am a celt by
        > blood, but who's counting). so anyway, i am trying to make the most
        > accurate armor i can, for combat of course, but the way i want to go
        > with it is a bit strange. I am a student of togakure ryu bujinkan,
        > a.k.a. ninjutsu, and so i am going to have a ninja persona. but of
        > course i dont want anyone to know that, so i am going to pretend to
        > be a samurai. so here are my questions
        >
        > 1. i prefer to dodge blows rather than block them, but in the only
        > armor ive fought in, late 16th european plate, there was no
        > possibility for this. plus i am a bit on the large side of the size
        > scale, what pattern of do should i use?
        >
        ...I think we all would prefer to dodge blows, rather than have the
        need to block them! Not being where the attack is, is a stronger
        defence than hoping you can put something in the middle of you and
        someone else's weapon!

        >i noticed that all the sode had a few rows of red laceing at the
        bottom, is that because they all had them, or would it be ok if i
        change that to black? i hate red.

        ...Armors throughout the various periods used different colors for the
        hishinui at the bottom of plates. At first, these were just red
        lacquered leather lacing that was used to bind the scales together.
        This added a pleasant contrast to the base color of the armor, and
        sometimes the odoshi (lacing)
        Later, and in more fancier armors, thicker odoshi, like that used in
        the rest of the armor was used, but it was not always red. Kon (a deep
        blue color), a pale sort of sickley avacado green (can you tell how
        much I like that color?) and even black were used, so do not feel
        constrained to use red. Some late period armors even did away with the
        hishinui decoration altogether...

        >
        > 4. although i personally have much in the way of financial freedom, a
        > shinobi playing samurai probably wouldnt, so i want to make my armor
        > seem cheap, by 1600's japanese measurements, what can i do to
        > accomplish this, without sacrificing period style, or accuracy?


        A "person" of your chosen profession could easilly use "found" items
        from the battlefield, and I suppose it would be quite possible to wear
        bits and pieces to suit you. Two different style and colored kote
        (sleaves), a do laced with one patern, matched to sode and kusadzuri
        from other suits...I am sure you get the idea. This way you could
        experiment with what suits your mobile style of combat, and look
        entirely period. Ashigaru in late period were known to wear what they
        could get their hands on. Unless you "worked" for someone who dressed
        their men in similar suits, then this might be a good way to go.
        That, and a good study of the mannerisms and ways of the people you
        are imitating...but you knew that...didn't you! :-)



        Date-

        Date Saburou Yukiie
        Shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the grave
        http://www.kabutographics.com
        kabuto@...
      • Ii Saburou
        ... Whatever you like. The later period variants tend to be made more for fighting on foot than the early period versions. You are still going to be under the
        Message 3 of 9 , May 1, 2003
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          On Thu, 1 May 2003, raimarusan wrote:

          > 1. i prefer to dodge blows rather than block them, but in the only
          > armor ive fought in, late 16th european plate, there was no
          > possibility for this. plus i am a bit on the large side of the size
          > scale, what pattern of do should i use?

          Whatever you like. The later period variants tend to be made more for
          fighting on foot than the early period versions.

          You are still going to be under the SCA regulations, and the SCA fighting
          styles. Not that you can't do it, but I'm not sure that Japanese armour
          necessarily makes this any easier than a good western suit--and you have
          to add additional bits (elbow couters, gauntlets, and metal that is thick
          enough to not deform under constant 'killing blows').

          > 2. I was looking at baron edward of effingham's site, and i noticed
          > that all the sode had a few rows of red laceing at the bottom, is
          > that because they all had them, or would it be ok if i change that to
          > black? i hate red.

          Red is traditional. You so see some that don't have it--I'm thinking in
          particular of a black do laced in blue.

          Perhaps the best way is to find a do that you like and try to copy that
          style.

          > 3. does anyone know a website that has instrucions for constructing a
          > katana out of rattan? i cant find one anywhere.

          Out of curiosity, has anyone found that making a 'katana' with sori and
          all is actually useful in the SCA?

          I would recommend making a long sword that is comfortable for you and your
          fighting style and if you wish to limit yourself to a single edge, only
          tape one edge. Personally, rattan is so far removed from an actual katana
          that I really don't think it makes much difference to me, but YMMV.

          > 4. although i personally have much in the way of financial freedom, a
          > shinobi playing samurai probably wouldnt, so i want to make my armor
          > seem cheap, by 1600's japanese measurements, what can i do to
          > accomplish this, without sacrificing period style, or accuracy?

          Well, the main problems are going to be the SCA impositions. The easiest
          things to do, however, are things such as making clothes that will go over
          much of the armour.

          Truly cheap armour would have you probably wearing a do and not much else,
          including clothing (fundoshi and waraji). However, you probably want more
          than that.


          -Ii
        • raimarusan
          thanks i think the clothes over armor idea is just what im looking for, consequently, i went back over the site, for like the five millionth time, and i have
          Message 4 of 9 , May 1, 2003
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            thanks i think the clothes over armor idea is just what im looking
            for, consequently, i went back over the site, for like the five
            millionth time, and i have decided to go with the black laquer/ kon
            lacing theme, thanks.
          • Bill Fornshell
            Hi, I don t know if this book has ever been talked about. You might want to try and find it. It is called Samurai Undressed by Jacqui Carey. It was published
            Message 5 of 9 , May 1, 2003
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              Hi, I don't know if this book has ever been talked
              about. You might want to try and find it. It is called
              "Samurai Undressed" by Jacqui Carey. It was published
              in 1995, ISBN 095232251x. It is 80 pages and cost
              about $18. I would try a internet search to find the
              book. It was published in England and did not show up
              on my Library Book Search Program for US libraries. It
              is a small size book that is about "The Braiding
              Part" of the armour.
              http://www.careycompany.com/sam-undress.html
              I own the book if you want to know more about it.
              Bill
              --- raimarusan <raimaru@...> wrote:
              > thanks i think the clothes over armor idea is just
              > what im looking
              > for, consequently, i went back over the site, for
              > like the five
              > millionth time, and i have decided to go with the
              > black laquer/ kon
              > lacing theme, thanks.
              >
              >





              =====
              Bill Fornshell
              Founder and President
              Cold Mountain Chanoyu
              (Tea School for the New Millennium)
              School of One
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ColdMtnChado

              __________________________________
              Do you Yahoo!?
              The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
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            • Don Luby
              ... Well, I m not sure what you mean by large side of the size scale , but a number of the fighters in Yama Kaminari (including myself) might fit that
              Message 6 of 9 , May 2, 2003
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                On Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 01:41 PM, raimarusan wrote:

                > greetings fellow anachronists!
                > I have been going to sca events for a while now, and so far ive been
                > going in the guise of an early period celt. but a few events ago i
                > saw someone there that was dressed in japanese garb. I have always
                > been a fan of japanese culture, and decided that it would be an
                > injustice for me to continue under false pretences (I am a celt by
                > blood, but who's counting). so anyway, i am trying to make the most
                > accurate armor i can, for combat of course, but the way i want to go
                > with it is a bit strange. I am a student of togakure ryu bujinkan,
                > a.k.a. ninjutsu, and so i am going to have a ninja persona. but of
                > course i dont want anyone to know that, so i am going to pretend to
                > be a samurai. so here are my questions
                >
                > 1. i prefer to dodge blows rather than block them, but in the only
                > armor i've fought in, late 16th european plate, there was no
                > possibility for this. plus i am a bit on the large side of the size
                > scale, what pattern of do should i use?

                Well, I'm not sure what you mean by 'large side of the size scale',
                but a number of the fighters in Yama Kaminari (including myself) might
                fit that description, being 6' - 6' 3" and 220# - 280#, and that
                pattern works well for us.

                > 2. I was looking at baron edward of effingham's site, and i noticed
                > that all the sode had a few rows of red laceing at the bottom, is that
                > because they all had them, or would it be ok if i change that to
                > black? i hate red.

                I think that's just a color preference on his part - for example, my
                sode are laced red, with a few rows of white on the bottom. There are
                some pics of other yoroi in the folder for this group on Yahoo that
                have other lacing color schemes, and are quite fine.

                > 3. does anyone know a website that has instrucions for constructing
                > a katana out of rattan? i cant find one anywhere.

                It's a stick. :)
                Seriously, though, it has to follow your kingdom's greatsword
                requirements (length, length of hilt, guard/tsuba, thrusting tip if
                you want one, &c) and the Society's marshallate policies (1.25"
                minimum width, the blade being taped appropriately, &c). Various
                people have different preferences, based on combat style and taste -
                my katanas have a blade length of [hand-at-top-of-hilt to big toe with
                arm relaxed], a hilt of 15", and planed down to 1.25" for its entire
                length.

                > 4. although i personally have much in the way of financial freedom,
                > a shinobi playing samurai probably wouldnt, so i want to make my
                > armor seem cheap, by 1600's japanese measurements, what can i do to
                > accomplish this, without sacrificing period style, or accuracy?

                Go for something ashigaru-looking, with the appropriate armored bits
                to be legal (and safe) wherever you're fighting.

                > thats all for now, any help would be appreciated. <<bows>>




                Sir Koredono

                -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no Koredono, KSCA
                djl@... Yama-kaminari-ryu
                Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands, AEthelmearc
              • toshio
                ... Would not the best way to avoid detection as a ninja would be to dress as a Celt? ... that all the sode had a few rows of red laceing at the bottom, is
                Message 7 of 9 , May 2, 2003
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                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Don Luby <djl@t...> wrote:
                  > On Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 01:41 PM, raimarusan wrote:
                  >
                  > greetings fellow anachronists!
                  > I have been going to sca events for a while now, and so far ive
                  >been going in the guise of an early period celt. but a few events
                  >ago i saw someone there that was dressed in japanese garb. I have
                  >always been a fan of japanese culture, and decided that it would be
                  >an injustice for me to continue under false pretences (I am a celt by
                  > blood, but who's counting). so anyway, i am trying to make the
                  >most accurate armor i can, for combat of course, but the way i want
                  >to go with it is a bit strange. I am a student of togakure ryu
                  >bujinkan, a.k.a. ninjutsu, and so i am going to have a ninja
                  >persona. but of course i dont want anyone to know that, so i am
                  >going to pretend to be a samurai. so here are my questions

                  Would not the best way to avoid detection
                  as a ninja would be to dress as a Celt?

                  > 2. I was looking at baron edward of effingham's site, and i noticed
                  that all the sode had a few rows of red laceing at the bottom, is
                  that because they all had them, or would it be ok if i change that to
                  black? i hate red.

                  Using red for hishinui, the binding laces on the hishinui-no-ita (the
                  bottom most row of kozane or plates) is traditional, regardless of
                  the color of the vertical lacing used. There were armors laced
                  entirely in black, purple, green, but almost always with a
                  contrasting color used for hishinui. The left and right most lacing
                  on each section of armor is called the Mimi ito and is always some
                  contrasting color or multi-colored braid unless you are recreating
                  the Wal-Mart special knock-off armors of ashigaru.

                  > 3. does anyone know a website that has instrucions for constructing
                  >a katana out of rattan? i cant find one anywhere.

                  As Koredono-Sensei says, it's a stick. Drop by the Yama-Kaminari
                  camp at Pennsic and we'd be happy to help you in your research.

                  > 4. although i personally have much in the way of financial
                  >freedom, a shinobi playing samurai probably wouldnt, so i want to
                  >make my armor seem cheap, by 1600's japanese measurements, what can
                  >i do to accomplish this, without sacrificing period style, or
                  >accuracy?

                  You might try one of the "mat" type of armors, using hexagonal plates
                  connected by chainmail to a fabric backing. That's pretty cheap and
                  easy to wear modern or european joint protection underneath without
                  sacrificing your appearance or safety.

                  Toshinobu
                • raimarusan
                  of course the best way to avoid detection would be to dress as a celt, but thats not as fun now is it?
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 2, 2003
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                    of course the best way to avoid detection would be to dress as a
                    celt, but thats not as fun now is it?
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