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  • genevra1676
    Hi!! I ve been in the SCA for a number of years under a late-15th century French persona, but I ve recently become interested in creating an alternate Japanese
    Message 1 of 10 , May 1 8:50 AM
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      Hi!!

      I've been in the SCA for a number of years under a late-15th century
      French persona, but I've recently become interested in creating an
      alternate Japanese persona, most likely late period (late Muromachi
      or early Edo). I've so far picked up Liza Dalby's "Kimono:
      Fashioning Culture," read some info on the Web from fine websites
      such as those by Clan Yama Kaminari, Clan Genji, Lord Hiraizumi
      Tôrokurô Tadanobu no Ason, and the Fûzoku Hakubutsukan in Kyoto, and
      surfed eBay for Japanese-related stuff. But as it is not easy to
      find books on period Japanese garb & its accessories, I have a number
      of questions that I hope you good gentles can help me with:

      1. Hair--Most of the info I've seen so far regarding period women's
      hairstyles refers to long ponytails with "mutilated" lappets in
      front. But in "Kimono," Liza Dalby mentions that more ornate up-dos
      inspired by Chinese hairstyles began to become popular sometime in
      the 16th century. I've seen some absolutely gorgeous wedding/geisha
      wigs go up on eBay, and I would like to know if these styles, such as
      the shimada-mage, are period--especially if you extend the definition
      of "period" to early Edo pre-1650 (Yes, I know that Corpora says "pre-
      17th century," but if we actually adhered to that, most of the
      fencers and quite a few others would have to throw out their
      wardrobes; my husband for example is a French Cavalier ca. 1625)--or
      are they still completely OOP? What about the various hair ornaments-
      -kanzashi, kushi, kogai, etc?

      2. Shoes--In modern Japan, geta are considered casual and zori
      considered more formal. Was there a similar convention in (late)
      period? Are pokkori--geta with lacquered platform soles & bells in
      hollows in the platform--period?

      3. Kimono--How feasible would it be to adapt a mordern kimono or
      uchikake? I've found a website that offers beautiful Oriental-
      patterned cotton prints but haven't had much luck finding silk with
      similar quality patterns (mostly since I think most of the patterning
      for fine kimono is done after the kimono is put together via painting
      or embroidery). But I can find plenty of lovely kimono on eBay . . .
      Also, did kimono hemlines trail at all in period? Liza Dalby says
      no, but I've seen pictures that do, so I'm a bit confused.

      That's all for the moment, although I'm sure I'll come up with more
      questions soon. Domo arigato,

      Genevra d'Angouleme (for the moment) :)
    • ELAINE KOOGLER
      Hi...and welcome to our happy group! but I ve recently become interested in creating an ... My persona is Momoyama...the period that kind of falls between the
      Message 2 of 10 , May 1 10:53 AM
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        Hi...and welcome to our happy group!

        but I've recently become interested in creating an
        >
        > alternate Japanese persona, most likely late period (late
        > Muromachi
        >
        > or early Edo).

        My persona is Momoyama...the period that kind of falls between the two
        you mentioned...it's essentially late 16th century, ending around 1604,
        IIRC.

        >
        > 1. Hair--Most of the info I've seen so far regarding period
        > women's
        >
        > hairstyles refers to long ponytails with "mutilated"
        > lappets in
        >
        > front. But in "Kimono," Liza Dalby mentions that more
        > ornate up-dos
        >
        > inspired by Chinese hairstyles began to become popular sometime in
        >
        > the 16th century. I've seen some absolutely gorgeous
        > wedding/geisha
        >
        > wigs go up on eBay, and I would like to know if these styles, such
        > as
        >
        > the shimada-mage, are period--especially if you extend the
        > definition
        >
        > of "period" to early Edo pre-1650

        I usually try to sort out what is period and what is not by looking at
        paintings from the period. I suspect that hair styles were worn more
        conservatively by the Samurai and noble classes...though I'm not sure
        what class you intend to be. What I've read/seen is that the geisha
        and others were at the forefront of fashion, whereas the upper classes
        tended to follow more slowly. At any rate, again depending on what
        your persona is, I'd be wary of wearing a geisha wig... However, if
        you found a very simple wig, probably that would be ok, and I'd tend to
        keep any ornaments simple as well. Again, I can't remember the source
        (it's been a long time), but I remember reading that the upper class
        women tended to wear very little, if any jewelry.

        > 2. Shoes--In modern Japan, geta are considered casual and zori
        >
        > considered more formal. Was there a similar convention in (late)
        >
        > period? Are pokkori--geta with lacquered platform soles &
        > bells in
        >
        > hollows in the platform--period?

        I don't recall seeing any geta like what you describe in any paintings,
        nor reading about them anywhere. All my research shows is the use of
        geta outdoors, and tabi indoors.


        > 3. Kimono--How feasible would it be to adapt a mordern kimono or
        >
        > uchikake? I've found a website that offers beautiful Oriental-
        >
        > patterned cotton prints but haven't had much luck finding silk
        > with
        >
        > similar quality patterns (mostly since I think most of the
        > patterning
        >
        > for fine kimono is done after the kimono is put together via
        > painting
        >
        > or embroidery). But I can find plenty of lovely kimono on eBay .
        > . .

        If you can find kimono that are brocade, embroidered or use any other
        period technique for decoration, AND if they fit you (purchased kimon
        tend to be quite small in size...I have a number that I can't wear but
        keep because the fabrics are so lovely). Another thing you can do that
        is quite period is to use pieces from a purchased kimono in a garment
        you make yourself! This was done in period...using parts of an old
        garment to make a new one!
        >
        > Also, did kimono hemlines trail at all in period? Liza Dalby says
        >
        > no, but I've seen pictures that do, so I'm a bit confused.
        >
        What I've seen in pictures leads me to believe that if it is worn
        wrapped with an obi, it did not. But the uchikake and other forms of
        that type appear to trail.

        >
        > That's all for the moment, although I'm sure I'll come up with
        > more
        >
        > questions soon. Domo arigato,
        >
        My pleasure. I just hope I've been of some help to you. Trust me...I
        started this about 23 years ago, and there was even less available
        then...no Dalby, none of what you mentioned above...except Hiraizumi-
        dono...my very old, dear friend!

        Good luck!

        Kiri
        (Minowara Kiritsubo, from the Barony of Dun Carraig in Atlantia)



        >
        > Genevra d'Angouleme (for the moment) :)
        >
        >
        >
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      • genevra1676
        ... I guess then I m looking at Momoyama or early Edo myself . . . not sure which yet though. ... Were geisha period (to Momoyama or early Edo)? I m not sure
        Message 3 of 10 , May 1 11:37 AM
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          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, ELAINE KOOGLER <ekoogler1@c...> wrote:

          > > alternate Japanese persona, most likely late period (late
          > > Muromachi or early Edo).
          >
          > My persona is Momoyama...the period that kind of falls between the
          > two you mentioned...it's essentially late 16th century, ending
          > around 1604, IIRC.

          I guess then I'm looking at Momoyama or early Edo myself . . . not
          sure which yet though.

          > >
          > > 1. Hair--Most of the info I've seen so far regarding period
          > > women's hairstyles refers to long ponytails with "mutilated"
          > > lappets in front. But in "Kimono," Liza Dalby mentions that more
          > > ornate up-dos inspired by Chinese hairstyles began to become
          > > popular sometime in the 16th century. I've seen some absolutely
          > > gorgeous wedding/geisha wigs go up on eBay, and I would like to
          > > know if these styles, such as the shimada-mage, are period--
          > > especially if you extend the definition of period to early Edo
          > > pre-1650
          >
          > I usually try to sort out what is period and what is not by looking
          > at paintings from the period. I suspect that hair styles were worn
          > more conservatively by the Samurai and noble classes...though I'm
          > not sure what class you intend to be. What I've read/seen is that
          > the geisha and others were at the forefront of fashion, whereas the
          > upper classes tended to follow more slowly. At any rate, again
          > depending on what your persona is, I'd be wary of wearing a geisha
          > wig... However, if you found a very simple wig, probably that
          > would be ok, and I'd tend to keep any ornaments simple as well.
          > Again, I can't remember the source (it's been a long time), but I
          > remember reading that the upper class women tended to wear very
          > little, if any jewelry.

          Were geisha period (to Momoyama or early Edo)? I'm not sure yet what
          class I want to be yet, although if being geisha or rich merchant-
          class would give me more options in the wearing of "pretties" (since
          this is before the sumptuary laws restricting what non-nobles could
          wear), I might consider that. And from what little I've read, while
          Japanese women didn't wear what we Westerners traditionally think of
          as jewelry--necklaces, earrings, etc--they did seem to go in for hair
          ornaments, at least by some point in the Edo period. I just need to
          know if that point happens to fall before or after 1650. Could you
          recommend some good sources to look at paintings of the period?

          >
          > > 2. Shoes--In modern Japan, geta are considered casual and zori
          > > considered more formal. Was there a similar convention in (late)
          > > period? Are pokkori--geta with lacquered platform soles &
          > > bells in hollows in the platform--period?
          >
          > I don't recall seeing any geta like what you describe in any
          > paintings, nor reading about them anywhere. All my research shows
          > is the use of geta outdoors, and tabi indoors.
          >
          > > 3. Kimono--How feasible would it be to adapt a mordern kimono or
          > > uchikake? I've found a website that offers beautiful Oriental-
          > > patterned cotton prints but haven't had much luck finding silk
          > > with similar quality patterns (mostly since I think most of the
          > > patterning for fine kimono is done after the kimono is put
          > > together via painting or embroidery). But I can find plenty of
          > > lovely kimono on eBay . . .
          >
          > If you can find kimono that are brocade, embroidered or use any
          > other period technique for decoration, AND if they fit you
          > (purchased kimon tend to be quite small in size...I have a number
          > that I can't wear but keep because the fabrics are so lovely).
          > Another thing you can do that is quite period is to use pieces from
          > a purchased kimono in a garment you make yourself! This was done
          > in period...using parts of an old garment to make a new one!

          Fortunately for this purpose, I happen to be on the short side at
          5'3", so I only have to make sure the kimono are wide enough to go
          around me. Which decoration techniques used today are not period?

          > >
          > > Also, did kimono hemlines trail at all in period? Liza Dalby
          > > says no, but I've seen pictures that do, so I'm a bit confused.
          > >
          > What I've seen in pictures leads me to believe that if it is worn
          > wrapped with an obi, it did not. But the uchikake and other forms
          > of that type appear to trail.
          >

          Thanks for the info!!

          Genevra
        • Ii Saburou
          ... Jidai Isho no Nuikata is probably the most oft-used book, if you can read Japanese, but it is pretty spendy. ... I ve not seen it, but neither have I
          Message 4 of 10 , May 1 3:42 PM
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            On Thu, 1 May 2003, genevra1676 wrote:

            > I've been in the SCA for a number of years under a late-15th century
            > French persona, but I've recently become interested in creating an
            > alternate Japanese persona, most likely late period (late Muromachi
            > or early Edo). I've so far picked up Liza Dalby's "Kimono:
            > Fashioning Culture," read some info on the Web from fine websites
            > such as those by Clan Yama Kaminari, Clan Genji, Lord Hiraizumi
            > Tôrokurô Tadanobu no Ason, and the Fûzoku Hakubutsukan in Kyoto, and
            > surfed eBay for Japanese-related stuff. But as it is not easy to
            > find books on period Japanese garb & its accessories, I have a number
            > of questions that I hope you good gentles can help me with:

            "Jidai Isho no Nuikata" is probably the most oft-used book, if you can
            read Japanese, but it is pretty spendy.

            > 1. Hair--Most of the info I've seen so far regarding period women's
            > hairstyles refers to long ponytails with "mutilated" lappets in
            > front. But in "Kimono," Liza Dalby mentions that more ornate up-dos
            > inspired by Chinese hairstyles began to become popular sometime in
            > the 16th century. I've seen some absolutely gorgeous wedding/geisha
            > wigs go up on eBay, and I would like to know if these styles, such as
            > the shimada-mage, are period--especially if you extend the definition
            > of "period" to early Edo pre-1650 (Yes, I know that Corpora says "pre-
            > 17th century," but if we actually adhered to that, most of the
            > fencers and quite a few others would have to throw out their
            > wardrobes; my husband for example is a French Cavalier ca. 1625)--or
            > are they still completely OOP? What about the various hair ornaments-
            > -kanzashi, kushi, kogai, etc?

            I've not seen it, but neither have I looked.

            I will mention that many of us use the 1600 deadline because it is very
            easy: that's the year of the Battle of Sekigahara (the effective end of
            the Toyotomi regime) and then you don't have to worry about if that 'Edo
            period' piece is within your period of study or not.

            That being said, YMMV--still, I can't comment on Edo period as well as
            earlier things.

            > 2. Shoes--In modern Japan, geta are considered casual and zori
            > considered more formal. Was there a similar convention in (late)
            > period? Are pokkori--geta with lacquered platform soles & bells in
            > hollows in the platform--period?

            In at least one scroll that I have studied I noticed that there were the
            following types of footwear:
            Waraji--most common. I saw what appeared to be 'traveling' waraji
            (waraji that wrap around the foot for a--relatively--sturdy wear),
            zori-style waraji (like rice-straw flip-flops) on more people whom I would
            say appear to be 'local', and something that looks like waraji except that
            they were more squared and rectangular, with similarly rectangular thongs.
            Geta--these were more rare, and I believe that the people wearing
            them were religious men of some type.
            Zori--I recall seeing a few of what appeared to be zori, but I
            seem to recall it was for upper class women.

            Then there were the many people whom I either could not see or else who
            were barefoot.

            > 3. Kimono--How feasible would it be to adapt a mordern kimono or
            > uchikake? I've found a website that offers beautiful Oriental-
            > patterned cotton prints but haven't had much luck finding silk with
            > similar quality patterns (mostly since I think most of the patterning
            > for fine kimono is done after the kimono is put together via painting
            > or embroidery). But I can find plenty of lovely kimono on eBay . . .
            > Also, did kimono hemlines trail at all in period? Liza Dalby says
            > no, but I've seen pictures that do, so I'm a bit confused.

            Have you tried looking at www.ichiroya.com?

            You can also get silk at reasonable prices at www.silkconnection.com, and
            also at thaisilks.com.

            I believe that the trailing hemlines depend on who, when, and where.
            Upper class ladies definitely had trailing hems--look at the Heian period.
            However, you see those mostly in places where people are on floors or
            other such controlled surfaces. Wandering around outside it looks like
            they either had a shorter cut or else wrapped up the excess around so that
            they could walk without it trailing.


            -Ii
          • Solveig
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Hideously post period, but there is a book about them: Edo Ketsubatsu Shi Published by Seiabou no ISBN There is a
            Message 5 of 10 , May 2 8:52 AM
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              >1. Hair--Most of the info I've seen so far regarding period women's
              >hairstyles refers to long ponytails with "mutilated" lappets in
              >front. But in "Kimono," Liza Dalby mentions that more ornate up-dos
              >inspired by Chinese hairstyles began to become popular sometime in
              >the 16th century.

              Hideously post period, but there is a book about them:

              Edo Ketsubatsu Shi
              Published by Seiabou
              no ISBN

              There is a companion volume on Edo clothing:

              Edo Fukushoku Shi
              Published by Seiabou
              no ISBN

              You should know that a lot of Edo period fashion was developed through
              the interplay of the ladies of the water quarter and the onnagata of
              the kabuki theatre. Kabuki and especially the onnagata of Kabuki are
              post-period.

              As for jewelry. Jewelry has relatively little importance in medieval
              Japan either for men or for women. There were various kinds of regulated
              hat ornaments worn by male aristocrats and varioius functional objects
              were highly decorated.

              >I've seen some absolutely gorgeous wedding/geisha
              >wigs go up on eBay, and I would like to know if these styles, such as
              >the shimada-mage, are period--especially if you extend the definition
              >of "period" to early Edo pre-1650 (Yes, I know that Corpora says "pre-
              >17th century," but if we actually adhered to that, most of the
              >fencers and quite a few others would have to throw out their
              >wardrobes; my husband for example is a French Cavalier ca. 1625)--or
              >are they still completely OOP? What about the various hair ornaments-
              >-kanzashi, kushi, kogai, etc?

              Generally speaking, "traditional" wedding fashions were fixed about
              a hundred years ago.

              >2. Shoes--In modern Japan, geta are considered casual and zori
              >considered more formal. Was there a similar convention in (late)
              >period? Are pokkori--geta with lacquered platform soles & bells in
              >hollows in the platform--period?

              You should consider the basic function of geta. They are for:
              going to the toilet, going to the bath, and walking through
              the muck during rainy season. A few groups are generally
              associated with the things at other times such as certain monks.

              >3. Kimono--How feasible would it be to adapt a mordern kimono or
              >uchikake? I've found a website that offers beautiful Oriental-
              >patterned cotton prints but haven't had much luck finding silk with
              >similar quality patterns (mostly since I think most of the patterning
              >for fine kimono is done after the kimono is put together via painting
              >or embroidery). But I can find plenty of lovely kimono on eBay . . .
              >Also, did kimono hemlines trail at all in period? Liza Dalby says
              >no, but I've seen pictures that do, so I'm a bit confused.

              The reality is that most people will not know the difference. Otherwsie,
              you should know that they are cut differently and that you are better of
              making your clothes from fabric stock rather than trying to modify
              existing clothing.

              >wear), I might consider that. And from what little I've read, while
              >Japanese women didn't wear what we Westerners traditionally think of
              >as jewelry--necklaces, earrings, etc--they did seem to go in for hair
              >ornaments, at least by some point in the Edo period. I just need to
              >know if that point happens to fall before or after 1650. Could you
              >recommend some good sources to look at paintings of the period?

              The basic style is to make a ponytail and then to tie the ponytail up.
              Lacquered hair combs appear in quite a few illustrations. Also, the
              hair ties sometimes have pompoms at their ends.

              Typically fabric is either woven with a pattern in it or it is printed
              using any number of printing techniques. Hand painting and embroidery
              are less common.

              >I will mention that many of us use the 1600 deadline because it is very
              >easy: that's the year of the Battle of Sekigahara (the effective end of
              >the Toyotomi regime) and then you don't have to worry about if that 'Edo
              >period' piece is within your period of study or not.

              Also, Japan has the happy good fortune of having its medieval period
              actually end at the SCA cut-off date. Post 1600 is called kinsei instead
              of chuusei in Japanese history books. Just because a lot of people in the
              Society choose to do post 1600 stuff doesn't mean that we should. We are
              held with suspicion and contempt by too many in the Society already! So yes,
              there are people wearing levi's, peasant shirts, and motor cycle boots
              drinking potato vodka and dancing dances created in the United States by
              Ukranian immigrants just one hundred years ago, but those interested in Japan
              should strive to do better.

              > Zori--I recall seeing a few of what appeared to be zori, but I
              >seem to recall it was for upper class women.

              Zori are dress shoes. Especially today, women's zori look different from
              men's zori, but zori are worn by both men and women.

              Check out the costume museum for good ideas about what women wore
              when walking around outside. Yes, these costumes can be significantly
              different from what
              court ladies wore indoors. Also, please note that even court ladies received
              cloth for new clothes considerably less often than we may imagine.

              http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/index.htm
              --

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
              | the trash by my email filters. |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            • genevra1676
              ... dos ... I got a book in the mail yesterday about traditional Japanese hairstyles (huzzah eBay)--don t know the name, as it is all in Japanese. But it does
              Message 6 of 10 , May 2 11:41 AM
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                > Noble Cousin!
                >
                > Greetings from Solveig!
                >
                > >1. Hair--Most of the info I've seen so far regarding period women's
                > >hairstyles refers to long ponytails with "mutilated" lappets in
                > >front. But in "Kimono," Liza Dalby mentions that more ornate up-
                dos
                > >inspired by Chinese hairstyles began to become popular sometime in
                > >the 16th century.
                >
                > Hideously post period, but there is a book about them:
                >
                > Edo Ketsubatsu Shi
                > Published by Seiabou
                > no ISBN
                >
                I got a book in the mail yesterday about traditional Japanese
                hairstyles (huzzah eBay)--don't know the name, as it is all in
                Japanese. But it does have dates in it, and so does confirm what
                people have told me so far--namely that the majority of updos didn't
                appear until well after the end of SCA period. The couple that the
                book indicated were pre-1650 I didn't particularly care for, so it
                looks like the long ponytail is the best way to go. Fortunately my
                hair is naturally long and black, but it is decidedly NOT straight.
                Since I don't know if I want to spend an hour or more before events
                trying to blowdry my hair straight, does anyone know of someplace
                where one can find a wig that doesn't look too fake yet won't cost an
                arm & a leg?

                >
                > >2. Shoes--In modern Japan, geta are considered casual and zori
                > >considered more formal. Was there a similar convention in (late)
                > >period? Are pokkori--geta with lacquered platform soles & bells in
                > >hollows in the platform--period?
                >
                > You should consider the basic function of geta. They are for:
                > going to the toilet, going to the bath, and walking through
                > the muck during rainy season. A few groups are generally
                > associated with the things at other times such as certain monks.
                >
                So would it be a safe bet to get a pair of geta to wear outdoors
                (particularly at Pennsic) and a pair of zori to wear at indoor events
                (since most event floors aren't covered with clean tatami mats)?
                >
                >
                > >I will mention that many of us use the 1600 deadline because it is
                very
                > >easy: that's the year of the Battle of Sekigahara (the effective
                end of
                > >the Toyotomi regime) and then you don't have to worry about if
                that 'Edo
                > >period' piece is within your period of study or not.
                >
                > Also, Japan has the happy good fortune of having its medieval period
                > actually end at the SCA cut-off date. Post 1600 is called kinsei
                instead
                > of chuusei in Japanese history books. Just because a lot of people
                in the
                > Society choose to do post 1600 stuff doesn't mean that we should.
                We are
                > held with suspicion and contempt by too many in the Society
                already! So yes,
                > there are people wearing levi's, peasant shirts, and motor cycle
                boots
                > drinking potato vodka and dancing dances created in the United
                States by
                > Ukranian immigrants just one hundred years ago, but those
                interested in Japan
                > should strive to do better.
                >
                Not to be argumentative, but there are also plenty of people who do
                post-1600 (but generally pre-1650) in a historically accurate fashion-
                -namely the numerous folk who do Cavalier garb and persona. My lord,
                for example, is a French falconer from ca. 1625, and he can document
                his garb better than many people who do earlier period stuff. And
                I'd certainly rather stand next to someone doing post-1600 Cavalier
                well than someone who throws a T-tunic over a pair of sweatpants and
                thinks they're period.

                Thank you for the additional information!

                Genevra
              • Don Luby
                ... Welcome! Enjoy! ... A most excellent book - I always recommend it. ... Yes, that s pretty much what I ve been led to believe is the norm, at least for
                Message 7 of 10 , May 2 3:35 PM
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                  On Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 11:50 AM, genevra1676 wrote:

                  > Hi!!
                  >
                  > I've been in the SCA for a number of years under a late-15th century
                  > French persona, but I've recently become interested in creating an
                  > alternate Japanese persona, most likely late period (late Muromachi
                  > or early Edo).

                  Welcome! Enjoy!

                  > I've so far picked up Liza Dalby's "Kimono: Fashioning Culture,"

                  A most excellent book - I always recommend it.

                  > read some info on the Web from fine websites such as those by Clan
                  > Yama Kaminari, Clan Genji, Lord Hiraizumi Ttrokurt Tadanobu no Ason,
                  > and the F{zoku Hakubutsukan in Kyoto, and surfed eBay for
                  > Japanese-related stuff. But as it is not easy to find books on
                  > period Japanese garb & its accessories, I have a number of questions
                  > that I hope you good gentles can help me with:

                  > 1. Hair--Most of the info I've seen so far regarding period women's
                  > hairstyles refers to long ponytails with "mutilated" lappets in
                  > front.

                  Yes, that's pretty much what I've been led to believe is the norm,
                  at least for 'ladies' (i.e. of the nobility, which we're all
                  "supposed" to be).

                  > But in "Kimono," Liza Dalby mentions that more ornate up-dos
                  > inspired by Chinese hairstyles began to become popular sometime in the
                  > 16th century.

                  I have never really heard of it, and it never seems to show up in
                  the period paintings and woodblocks, so I'd believe they are rather
                  uncommon, or for particular occassions or some such.

                  > I've seen some absolutely gorgeous wedding/geisha wigs go up on
                  > eBay, and I would like to know if these styles, such as the
                  > shimada-mage, are period

                  For women of 'rank', personally, I'd doubt it - their hair would
                  have been 'trained' since childhood, and wouldn't have had a need for
                  them, really.

                  > --especially if you extend the definition of "period" to early Edo
                  > pre-1650 (Yes, I know that Corpora says "pre-17th century," but if
                  > we actually adhered to that, most of the fencers and quite a few
                  > others would have to throw out their wardrobes; my husband for
                  > example is a French Cavalier ca. 1625) --or are they still
                  > completely OOP?

                  <rant>

                  The way it was explained to me when I joined, lo those many years
                  ago, was that period ended at 1600 (well, maybe 1603 for the death of
                  Elizabeth and the founding of the Tokugawa Shogunate) *period*. You
                  could uses sources that were written as late as 1650, but only to
                  document things that existed and were in moderately common usage
                  before 1600 (many dance directions and pieces of music fall into that
                  category). Thus, in my opinion, anything which came into vogue after
                  1600, including Cavaliers, Roundheads, and everything Tokugawa (which
                  would cover female geisha, Musashi, and whole host of other 'common'
                  Japanese stuff), was right out, because not only did they not exist in
                  regular usage, but they didn't even really exist in concept.

                  </rant>

                  So, using the two relevant issues here (class of persona, and
                  'period'ness), I would expect that at least one of these two points
                  would make such a wig inappropriate.

                  > What about the various hair ornaments--kanzashi, kushi, kogai, etc?

                  I think most of those existed, but that's not my speciality, so I
                  couldn't say for certain.

                  > 2. Shoes--In modern Japan, geta are considered casual and zori
                  > considered more formal. Was there a similar convention in (late)
                  > period? Are pokkori--geta with lacquered platform soles & bells in
                  > hollows in the platform--period?

                  Well, I would think that in period, geta would be 'outdoors' shoes,
                  and zori would be 'indoors' (for as much as shoes were worn indoors),
                  so I could see that as the basis for formal/casual.
                  As for pokkori, I'm pretty sure they're *not* period, at least not
                  for the kind of persona you seem to want.

                  > 3. Kimono--How feasible would it be to adapt a mordern kimono or uchikake?

                  Adapting it would be fairly difficult; OTOH, if you're just wearing
                  it to have pretty-looking Japanese garb, I don't think you'd really
                  *need* to adapt it - the patterns aren't that different, really, and
                  most people won't be able to tell the difference anyway.

                  > I've found a website that offers beautiful Oriental-patterned cotton
                  > prints but haven't had much luck finding silk with similar quality
                  > patterns

                  There are a number of sites which sell kimono bolts (and
                  occasionally on eBay as well), and the many of them are silk.

                  > (mostly since I think most of the patterning for fine kimono is done
                  > after the kimono is put together via painting or embroidery).

                  AFAIK, no, not really, at least not very often in period - mostly it
                  was patterned on the bolt, and then sewed together very meticulously.

                  > But I can find plenty of lovely kimono on eBay . . .
                  > Also, did kimono hemlines trail at all in period? Liza Dalby says
                  > no, but I've seen pictures that do, so I'm a bit confused.

                  I've always assumed that they do, at least for women, based on the
                  pictures I've seen. From a practical point of view, your need to
                  weigh that against it dragging in the dirt (since I would think that
                  most of those garments would be 'indoors only') and sitting for feast
                  in chairs (as opposed to kneeling on the floor).

                  > That's all for the moment, although I'm sure I'll come up with more
                  > questions soon. Domo arigato,
                  >
                  > Genevra d'Angouleme (for the moment) :)


                  Sir Koredono

                  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no Koredono, KSCA
                  djl@... Yama-kaminari-ryu
                  Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands, AEthelmearc
                • Rosemary Norwood
                  ... Male Geisha existed in the early 1600s. Female Geisha didn t appear until 1751 according to Liza Dalby s Geisha . -Tatsu.
                  Message 8 of 10 , May 2 4:52 PM
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                    On Thu, May 01, 2003 at 06:37:00PM -0000, genevra1676 wrote:
                    >
                    > Were geisha period (to Momoyama or early Edo)? I'm not sure yet what
                    > class I want to be yet, although if being geisha or rich merchant-
                    > class would give me more options in the wearing of "pretties" (since
                    > this is before the sumptuary laws restricting what non-nobles could

                    Male Geisha existed in the early 1600s. Female Geisha didn't appear
                    until 1751 according to Liza Dalby's 'Geisha'.

                    -Tatsu.
                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                    ... HI!!!! Effingham ... show France how you feel: just say non http://www.cafeshops.com/justsaynon
                    Message 9 of 10 , May 3 3:40 PM
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                      ELAINE KOOGLER wrote:

                      >
                      > My pleasure. I just hope I've been of some help to you. Trust me...I
                      > started this about 23 years ago, and there was even less available
                      > then...no Dalby, none of what you mentioned above...except Hiraizumi-
                      > dono...my very old, dear friend!

                      HI!!!! <waving like a demented lunatic from waaay over here>


                      Effingham
                      ---------
                      show France how you feel: just say "non"
                      http://www.cafeshops.com/justsaynon
                    • Solveig
                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Very very few Japanese have hair that is actually straight. Most have slightly wavy hair. I know Japanese who have
                      Message 10 of 10 , May 3 7:03 PM
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                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        >I got a book in the mail yesterday about traditional Japanese
                        >hairstyles (huzzah eBay)--don't know the name, as it is all in
                        >Japanese. But it does have dates in it, and so does confirm what
                        >people have told me so far--namely that the majority of updos didn't
                        >appear until well after the end of SCA period. The couple that the
                        >book indicated were pre-1650 I didn't particularly care for, so it
                        >looks like the long ponytail is the best way to go. Fortunately my
                        >hair is naturally long and black, but it is decidedly NOT straight.
                        >Since I don't know if I want to spend an hour or more before events
                        >trying to blowdry my hair straight, does anyone know of someplace
                        >where one can find a wig that doesn't look too fake yet won't cost an
                        >arm & a leg?

                        Very very few Japanese have hair that is actually straight. Most have
                        slightly wavy hair. I know Japanese who have tightly curly hair. I
                        even know a Japanese with brown hair and I have seen Japanese albinos.

                        Japan being monogenetic is a modern myth.

                        > > You should consider the basic function of geta. They are for:
                        >> going to the toilet, going to the bath, and walking through
                        >> the muck during rainy season. A few groups are generally
                        >> associated with the things at other times such as certain monks.
                        >>
                        >So would it be a safe bet to get a pair of geta to wear outdoors
                        >(particularly at Pennsic) and a pair of zori to wear at indoor events
                        >(since most event floors aren't covered with clean tatami mats)?

                        Technically, zouri are outdoor shoes. You wear other shoes indoors and
                        you never wear shoes on tatami. Basic rule of shoe usage in Japan,
                        everytime you change level, you change footwear. Baths and toilets
                        are either elevated or depressed with respect to the hall and have
                        toilet shoes waiting for you inside. You wear slippers or other
                        shoes in hallways, and you wear tabi or socks on tatami.

                        I can guarantee that zouri are worn outdoors. One of their main features
                        is that they have flat bottoms as opposed to geta which are elevated.
                        Incidentally, although they are now generally made out of other materials,
                        the kanji for writing the word indicates that they were originally made
                        from straw or similar vegitable material.

                        >Not to be argumentative, but there are also plenty of people who do
                        >post-1600 (but generally pre-1650) in a historically accurate fashion-
                        >-namely the numerous folk who do Cavalier garb and persona. My lord,
                        >for example, is a French falconer from ca. 1625, and he can document
                        >his garb better than many people who do earlier period stuff. And
                        >I'd certainly rather stand next to someone doing post-1600 Cavalier
                        >well than someone who throws a T-tunic over a pair of sweatpants and
                        >thinks they're period.

                        Baron El of the Two Knives insists that the cutoff IS 1650, but the
                        documents do say 1600. Since there are lots of anti-Asians in the
                        Society, it is best to be clearly pre 17th century.
                        --

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

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                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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