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RE: RE: [SCA-JML] Re: battlefield fabric enclosures

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  • Choronzey, Marc
    (grin)...Big grin actually! O-hayo all. I m afraid I m putting all SCA-nihonjin against me on this but hey! Like I said, at least, they are covering their
    Message 1 of 49 , Apr 10, 2003
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      (grin)...Big grin actually!

      O-hayo all. I'm afraid I'm putting all SCA-nihonjin against me on this but
      hey! Like I said, at least, they are covering their aluminium tubing! The
      point is not to be period to the point of disconfort but rather to be
      "creative" in hiding it. Yesterday, I was talking to a friend of mine who
      spent his first three years in "medieval jeans" before being introduced to
      period breeches and hoses... I am NOT an Orge but I figure a groupe who
      (regularly) discusses the type of silk that Toyotomi Hideyoshi's fundoshi
      was on January 5th 1557 should maybe at least try to look (that creative
      thing again) the best they can... and that is, I agree totally with you on
      this, a continous work in progress.... I mean I started slowly with modern
      hakama and my under kimono was a karate gi! But as the years go by... Know
      what I mean? I totally am all for newbies starting slowly and when they can,
      invest in themselves. Hey! Although I hate plastic, I have nothing against
      barrel armour on others. I wont even say "it's not period" because THAT's
      where the Creative Anachronisme comes in play.... My real beef is with white
      Adidas(tm) trainers when combat boots, hiking boots, BLACK or BROWN trainers
      would look less obvious... at least if you arent going to cover them. See
      where I'm going with this? Cover it. I truly and honnestly dont care how you
      make it... just make it to look period. Hey! I wear boxers under my hakama
      or kimono due inner thigh problems but if I go to the swimming hole, I'll
      wear my fundoshi. ;)

      Well, that's more like my 2$ worth but It's my opinion and I'm sticking to
      it. :D And I really like it when people d othe things we do, I want MORE
      people to be doing reinactment... living history.

      Ganbatte!
      -Shisen.
      -Marc Choronzey CSSR /
      Groupe Support, BMC Montr'al
      Page : 514 4140907
      Cell : 514 9174764

      > -----Message d'origine-----
      > De: Paul Smith
      > Date: Thursday, April 10, 2003 12:46 AM
      > À: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      > Objet: RE: RE: [SCA-JML] Re: battlefield fabric enclosures
      >
      > As a (still) newbie here, you may want to take my
      > opinion on this with a grain of salt, but as a person
      > putting together garb, armour, etc for the first time
      > I thought I might lend my opinion on mundane items
      > showing.
      >
      > I recently attended my first event in non-borrowed
      > garb. It was somewhat of a disaster. My newly-built
      > waraji broke, I didn't wear my Hitatari/kosode
      > correctly and my hakama was badly in need of hemming.
      > Also, I didn't consider how to best carry my
      > neccessary mundane gear.
      >
      > Result: my cell phone (necessary for my job), wallet
      > and keys kept falling out of my hitatari. I had to
      > use the closest shoes I had to period - black Army low
      > quarters. My chest kept showing like I was some kind
      > of a freekish rock star. My hakama got completely
      > muddy.
      >
      > Other result: no one gave me a hard time about either
      > my troubles or my mundane items showing. Everyone was
      > very supportive. I appreciated this greatly.
      >
      > I don't see how everyone can get everything right when
      > they're starting out. They just have to try the best
      > they can and I think most SCAdians are very supportive
      > if mundane items can be seen now and then.... BUT... I
      > am also making new waraji, I've tried to pick period
      > fabrics and paterns for the new garb I'm making and
      > the armour I'm trying to put together is as period as
      > I can get/make it.
      >
      > In other words, sometimes people can't be completely
      > period and I think other people should be
      > understanding about it. But I think if you're making
      > something or buying something new then you should
      > attempt to make it as period-looking as you can. If
      > you're going to expend the effort, why not try to make
      > the effort as authentic as you can?
      >
      > I also think support in this stage, before the item is
      > built, is the most helpful support of all. The
      > suggestion to steer toward more period materials can
      > be more easily accomplished before the item is put
      > together. Also, for me at any rate, knowing that
      > others do care about authenticity has helped me care
      > more about authenticity myself.
      >
      > Just my $0.02
      >
      > Paul
      >
      >
      > --- "Choronzey, Marc" <mchoronz@...> wrote:
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Wakarimasu(Understood)... But I believe that since we
      > are so prone to being
      > Creative (sorry ;) ), you could always cover you
      > modern trainers with fabric
      > and werent nihonjin ladies known for wearing wide
      > brinned hats or such other
      > covers? As one example... although for the shades... I
      > completely understand
      > as having particularly sensitive eyes myself... But
      > again, It's my own
      > opinion. I do not make myself the voice of the public.
      > :D And I will admint
      > to being one of those people who actually do sleep on
      > tatami in my everyday
      > life as well as weaving my own waraji... And I dont
      > even expect people from
      > MY own bunch to be this zealous but rather I was
      > making a point that after
      > sunglasses, trainers & watches, aluminium tubing is a
      > lesser evil.
      >
      > O genki de,
      > -Shisen (safely tucked away in his hometown of
      > Montreal// Island of Dragon
      > Dormant, EK)
      > -Marc Choronzey CSSR /
      > Groupe Support, BMC Montr'al
      > Page : 514 4140907
      > Cell : 514 9174764
      >
      > > -----Message d'origine-----
      > > De: ELAINE KOOGLER
      > > Date: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 4:02 PM
      > > À: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      > > Objet: Re: RE: [SCA-JML] Re: battlefield fabric
      > enclosures
      > >
      > > I understand your concerns, my lord, but
      > unfortunately there are modern
      > > problems (or old problems with new solutions) that
      > force many of us to
      > > wear/use things that are blatantly modern. When you
      > have a very bad
      > > back or set of knees (I have both), it is difficult
      > to function at
      > > events (particularly camping events) in period
      > shoes. Also, on sunny
      > > days, some of us have to wear sunglasses...the glare
      > is very bad for
      > > the eyes...
      > >
      > > Sorry if it offends you, but often it's either that
      > or we can't play at
      > > all.
      > >
      > > Kiri
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "Choronzey, Marc" <mchoronz@...>
      > > Date: Wednesday, April 9, 2003 2:56 pm
      > > Subject: RE: [SCA-JML] Re: battlefield fabric
      > enclosures
      > >
      > > > <span><p><span><p>
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > <tt>
      > > > Personally, I think that sometimes the group is a
      > bit to much
      > > > scA.... Our
      > > >
      > > > people do our very best to avoid any and all
      > anachronisms while
      > > > staying
      > > > Creative about it... Yet, and that might be me
      > alone here but,
      > > > when I see
      > > >
      > > > Adidas(tm) white trainers, Timex(tm) watches and
      > Rayban(tm)
      > > > glasses on
      > > >
      > > > "recreation" pictures, it really hurts
      > my eyes and
      > > > historian's pride. So
      > > >
      > > > come that point, carport tubing is a LESSER evil,
      > no?
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Just my offhand comment.
      > > >
      > > > -Shisen.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > -Marc Choronzey CSSR /
      > > >
      > > > Groupe Support, BMC Montr'al
      > > >
      > > > Page : 514 4140907
      > > >
      > > > Cell : 514 9174764
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > -----Message d'origine-----
      > > >
      > > > > De: Tim McShane
      > > >
      > > > > Date: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 2:52 PM
      > > >
      > > > > À: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      > > >
      > > > > Objet: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: battlefield
      > fabric enclosures
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > A valid wish--but for durability and ease of
      > construction, care,
      > > >
      > > > > portability and practicality for SCA
      > (remember, that
      > > > "C" stands for
      > > >
      > > > > "Creative" anachronisms) weekend
      > camping, what
      > > > alternatives would you
      > > >
      > > > > suggest?
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > - Shiro
      > > >
      > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > >
      > > > > From: Solveig
      > > >
      > > > > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      > > >
      > > > > Sent: April 9, 2003 1:03 AM
      > > >
      > > > > Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: battlefield fabric
      > enclosures
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > Noble Cousins!
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > Greetings from Solveig! I really wish that
      > people would
      > > > build akunoya
      > > >
      > > > > out of something other than aluminum tubing
      > carports.
      > > >
      > > > > --
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > > Your Humble
      > Servant
      > > >
      > > > > Solveig
      > Throndardottir
      > > >
      > > > > Amateur
      > Scholar
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > >
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      > Throndardottir,
      > > > CoM, CoS |
      > > >
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      > Carolingia Statis
      > > > Mentis Est |
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    • Solveig
      Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! I am most definitely not going by relative size in pictures. I do think that the number of people depicted as being in
      Message 49 of 49 , Apr 14, 2003
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        Baron Edward!

        Greetings from Solveig! I am most definitely not going by relative size
        in pictures. I do think that the number of people depicted as being in
        them is somewhat indicative of actual size.

        >the sizes they needed to be to fit into the pictures. There are scenes
        >of rows of nobles seated in one. If the drawing is accurate, that's two
        >rows of seven nobles seated in court garb.

        That is the sort of description that I am interested in. Most of the
        pictures I have seen of akunoya show the occupants wearing hunting
        robes which is rather different than the sort of clothing worn by
        the emperor or the sort of clothing worn by the guard units. Having
        been packed into a variety of modest sized rooms in Japan, I expect
        the depth to be no more than about two meters and quite possibly somewhat
        shallower. Seven people along the length can give a range of lengths
        depending on crowding. If people are modestly cozy, you can cram all
        seven into a six meter length. I am not advocating this as the size
        for an akunoya as I believe that this estimated would be understating
        the actual size.

        >If we assume a minimum of
        >four feet square to allow for clothing to spread and for "personal
        >space," that means the akunoya in that particular picture is at least 8'
        >wide and 28' long. There is also mention in the Heike Monogatari (in
        >scroll 10, I believe) of someone setting up an akunoya "5-jô long" in a
        >courtyard. That's a 50' long pavilion. I have no idea how wide it was,
        >though, but I doubt it was less than 8', and more likely 10 or 12.

        That is a relativey huge akunoya. Most akunoya shown in pictures are
        clearly smaller than that even allowing for distortions of relative
        size. There are of course depictions of relatively long garden buildings
        and similar structures, but I doubt that structures of this maginitude
        are appropriate for the limited occupany most likely under consideration.

        >Would you rather see an akunoya that may be a bit larger than the norm
        >in a Japanese encampment, or a "yurt" in a Japanese encampment? How
        >about a nylon dome tent? Or one of those Pennsic rental tents?

        Since I am guilty of living in a 3 man summit tent, I am not trying to
        disuade people from making akunoya. I think that they are great. The
        problem that I see is that people look like they are rappidly evolving
        an idesa for a generic SCA pseudo-akunoya. Further, I do believe that
        people underestimate the properties of traditional building materials.
        Often modern materials are used in commercial structures, because they
        are significantly cheaper in industrial quantitites. However, our
        stuff is seldom mass-produced and we do not have the same sort of
        economy of scale considerations as do the carport manufacturers. Maybe
        someone should try to persuade Panther Primitives to make akunoya?

        Using a more recent example. Conisder the wooden folding chairs in
        the movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still" Those chairs are actually
        more comfortable than most folding chairs sold today and just as
        sturdy. However, they are significantly more expensive to mass produce
        and are most likely totally unobtainable at this point.
        --

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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