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Re: Kanmuri construction thoughts...

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  • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
    ... One of ... Ii-dono, I am working on a similar project - lacquered ori eboshi of the type used for archery and general samurai stuff. I have a crinkled
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 6, 2003
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      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Ii Saburou <logan@m...> wrote:
      > I have been considering how best to make a kanmuri for court-wear.
      One of
      > the things I've been considering is 'Japanned' papier-mache.

      Ii-dono,
      I am working on a similar project - lacquered ori eboshi of the type
      used for archery and general samurai stuff. I have a crinkled fabric
      that looks like the refs I have seen, which will be "Japanned-up" as
      you say. I am trying to decide if the lower hachimaki should be
      lacquered wood, leather, or what.
      Any clues?
      Date
    • Ii Saburou
      ... As I understood it, hachimaki were the cloth bandanas that go around the head--I may be thinking of something different, here, though. I m also curious as
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 6, 2003
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        On Fri, 7 Mar 2003, Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie wrote:

        > Ii-dono,
        > I am working on a similar project - lacquered ori eboshi of the type
        > used for archery and general samurai stuff. I have a crinkled fabric
        > that looks like the refs I have seen, which will be "Japanned-up" as
        > you say. I am trying to decide if the lower hachimaki should be
        > lacquered wood, leather, or what.
        > Any clues?

        As I understood it, hachimaki were the cloth bandanas that go around the
        head--I may be thinking of something different, here, though.

        I'm also curious as to what you are looking for by way of an ori-eboshi
        'of the type used for archery'... that sounds like you want the folded hat
        ('ori', like in origami) but your ref to the texture sounds like something
        else.

        Here are examples of one type of ori-eboshi, aka samurai-eboshi:
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/4.htm
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/16.htm
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/17.htm

        Here are some examples of kaza-ori-eboshi (from the Edo section of Kyoto
        Costume Museum) [I've seen a very similar thing called a 'tate-eboshi',
        but I'm not sure what the difference was]:
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/kosode/6.htm
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/kosode/5.htm
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/kosode/7.htm

        What you are describing sounds like the hats I've seen on smiths and
        priests, modernly. I've not seen direct references to it in period, and
        would be interested to find out if what I am thinking of is the same thing
        you are. Do you have any good pictures?

        -Ii
      • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
        ... the ... folded hat ... something Ii-dono, I admit I used the term hachimaki generically to mean the band that goes around the head, like the bandanna
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 7, 2003
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          > As I understood it, hachimaki were the cloth bandanas that go around
          the
          > head--I may be thinking of something different, here, though.
          >
          > I'm also curious as to what you are looking for by way of an ori-eboshi
          > 'of the type used for archery'... that sounds like you want the
          folded hat
          > ('ori', like in origami) but your ref to the texture sounds like
          something


          Ii-dono,
          I admit I used the term "hachimaki" generically to mean the band that
          goes around the head, like the bandanna gizmo, and like the koshimaki
          of a kabuto. There may be another term.
          The refs you sent were nice, and as soon as I dig out my refs for
          ori-eboshi, I will send them to you, or post. I have seen the hats I
          want to reproduce called ori eboshi, like your pics, and samurai
          eboshi - still folded the same, so we are thinking the same critter.
          I have good close ups from many angles, and the fabric has a sort of
          tiny egg-shell cobblestone look to it (gomen) pressed in before
          lacquering. There are several forms, I gather, all called ori eboshi.
          I just was not sure what material the "hat band" was made of.

          Date
          Shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the grave
          http://www.kabutographics.com
          kabuto@...
        • Anthony J. Bryant
          ... For the EK Heian court at Pennsic year before last, they had kanmuri made from buckram. Looked pretty good from a few feet away. The thing is, there s a
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 7, 2003
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            Ii Saburou wrote:

            > I have been considering how best to make a kanmuri for court-wear. One of
            > the things I've been considering is 'Japanned' papier-mache. Since the
            > ones I've seen appear to have quite a bit of lacquer built up, I thought
            > it might be easier to use this to get the shape, then some lacquer or
            > decent substitute (suggestions?) for most of it. The 'tail' would still
            > need to be silk, at least.
            >

            For the EK Heian court at Pennsic year before last, they had kanmuri made
            from buckram. Looked pretty good from a few feet away.

            The thing is, there's a distinct shift in the shape of kanmuri over the
            years. The early/mid Heian style had a high, ship's prow-like front (think
            "amphibious landing craft") and a lower back, while the Kamakura and later
            styles were lower in front.

            The real thing -- at least the Heian models I've played with -- were very
            stiffly woven gauze; it looks like they were stretched on a (wooden?) mold
            and starched near to death. You can deform them by poking a finger into the
            body, but they are fairly stiff. Later on, they were more solid, and were
            actually lacquered. I really don't know how best to fake the early solid
            gauze ones, but papier mache does well for the later models.

            >
            > I'm also curious about two 'breathing holes' as I think of them, at the
            > top of the kanmuri. It looks like two sections where the lacquer has been
            > removed and you can see silk (I believe) underneath. I'm not sure if
            > these are period or even if they are typical--they might be the result of
            > some operation performed afterwards, but I'm not sure.
            >

            I think this might be a more modern version of something else. There's a
            period version with a semi-circular "window" at the front of the kanmuri
            (flat end toward the back). This is called a "sukibitai kanmuri" and is only
            worn by people up to the age of 16.

            There's another version with a crescent instead of a half-moon window, which
            is called "hansukibitai kanmuri" -- this one is worn until the age of 30.
            Both appear in the Genji Monogatari, so, yes, they're Period. <G>

            >
            > I'm also not sure _when_ the kanmuri became extremely rigid. Early
            > pictures look like they are more flexible, although I haven't seen any
            > extant examples to know for sure.
            >

            Depends on your definition of rigid. They ceased to be purely cloth caps in
            the first decades of the Heian period. Nara prototypes were literally cloth
            caps, and the "tails" ( the ei) were originally a separate piece that tied
            around the base of the topknot, which produced (1) the standing section of
            the cap, and (2) the dangling ei hanging behind it. By the late 800s the
            kanmuri was one piece and the ei were attached. The next big change was
            around the 1100s, when the ei, instead of hanging, became a single piece that
            actually jutted *up* before falling back down to the back. During all this
            time, the thing was primarily stiff gauze called "ra."

            Effingham
          • Anthony J. Bryant
            ... By hachimaki do you just mean the smooth, glossy rim of the eboshi? In that case, it s the heri and basically is just rim. Unless I m mistaken,
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 7, 2003
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              Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie wrote:

              >
              > I am working on a similar project - lacquered ori eboshi of the type
              > used for archery and general samurai stuff. I have a crinkled fabric
              > that looks like the refs I have seen, which will be "Japanned-up" as
              > you say. I am trying to decide if the lower hachimaki should be
              > lacquered wood, leather, or what.

              By "hachimaki" do you just mean the smooth, glossy "rim" of the eboshi? In
              that case, it's the "heri" and basically is just "rim." Unless I'm mistaken,
              it's cloth like the rest, just heavily lacquered.

              Effingham
            • Anthony J. Bryant
              ... The kazaori eboshi was a development from the tate eboshi. Essentially, a kazaori eboshi is a tate eboshi with the top folded over. In the later years,
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 7, 2003
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                Ii Saburou wrote:

                >
                > Here are some examples of kaza-ori-eboshi (from the Edo section of Kyoto
                > Costume Museum) [I've seen a very similar thing called a 'tate-eboshi',
                > but I'm not sure what the difference was]:

                The kazaori eboshi was a development from the tate eboshi. Essentially, a
                kazaori eboshi is a tate eboshi with the top folded over. In the later years,
                when no one was wearing tate eboshi any more, kazaori eboshi came to be
                called tate eboshi. It's one of those problematic things about terms changing
                their meaning, so you have to know when something was written to know which
                thing is being referred to.


                Effingham
              • Chris Vapenik
                Hi all, I have looked at Most of the linked examples of period clothing that you folks have been generous as to post. I truly am amaised at your examples, they
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 7, 2003
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                  Hi all,
                  I have looked at Most of the linked examples of period clothing that you folks have been generous as to post. I truly am amaised at your examples, they are beautiful. However I am currious, I wanted to develop a kind of "Ronin", "Yojimbo" persona, Like a traveling student, (Because my house is a mercinary house) it would seem to me that they wouldn't have garb that "nice", what would they wear?
                  and while I am here, how do I go about looking for a a name?
                  Thank you in advance...
                  Chris



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                • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
                  it s the heri and basically is just rim. Unless I m mistaken, ... Good Baron, That is exactly the thing I mean, and thank you for your info. Date
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 7, 2003
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                    it's the "heri" and basically is just "rim." Unless I'm mistaken,
                    > it's cloth like the rest, just heavily lacquered.
                    >
                    > Effingham

                    Good Baron,
                    That is exactly the thing I mean, and thank you for your info.
                    Date
                  • yogojoseki
                    Just my two cents I would imagine that would depend on his/her circumstances. I would think that simple kimono, juban, obi, tabi and waraji at a minimum along
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 7, 2003
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                      Just my two cents

                      I would imagine that would depend on his/her circumstances. I would
                      think that simple kimono, juban, obi, tabi and waraji at a minimum
                      along with daisho. If he were poor, all the above would be weather-
                      worn and at least a little dirty. Perhaps add hakama, old haori.

                      Probably wrong, but anybody feel free to chime in.

                      Eric (a lurker interested in period stuff)




                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vapenik <hangdogger@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi all,
                      > I have looked at Most of the linked examples of period clothing
                      that you folks have been generous as to post. I truly am amaised at
                      your examples, they are beautiful. However I am currious, I wanted to
                      develop a kind of "Ronin", "Yojimbo" persona, Like a traveling
                      student, (Because my house is a mercinary house) it would seem to me
                      that they wouldn't have garb that "nice", what would they wear?
                      > and while I am here, how do I go about looking for a a name?
                      > Thank you in advance...
                      > Chris
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Do you Yahoo!?
                      > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ii Saburou
                      Sounds like you are going for the lower class warrior of the Warring States Period. I would recommend some of the topics stated earlier on ronin and you
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 7, 2003
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                        Sounds like you are going for the lower class warrior of the Warring
                        States Period. I would recommend some of the topics stated earlier on
                        'ronin' and you probably want to decide just what kind of a position you
                        would have. That being said:

                        Here is a regular ashigaru:
                        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm

                        Here is a peasant:
                        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm

                        This is more what I might imagine seeing a yojimbo wearing:
                        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm

                        In general, if you are looking for the less affluent look, go with the
                        basic cuts of more extravagant garments, but use less fabric--so thiner
                        sleeves, less expensive fabric (more shibori dyed or block printed linen,
                        with less silk and embroidery), maybe some worn or patchwork materials
                        that look like hand-me-downs (my green hakama are about there--I love
                        them, as they are my most fitting pair, but they have holes and are really
                        getting threadbare.

                        I imagine that would be the most fitting for what you are looking for. An
                        obi is important, and swords would be appropriate.

                        The biggest challenge here is court. This is where the anachronisms often
                        come in, and you have to decide if you are a peasant rising up to gather
                        fame as a warrior, or a warrior who is down on his luck?

                        As a peasant with a rising star (think Toyotomi), you wouldn't need much
                        for court, I would imagine, as the liklihood of you making that far would
                        be rare--so in the SCA I would say that you should probably be aware that
                        most people are still your 'betters' (I get the feeling from some of my
                        readings that Toyotomi had this cloud over his head even when he ruled all
                        of Japan).

                        As a warrior down on his luck you might have at least one really nice
                        outfit--probably a nice (maybe silk?) hitatare and hakama combination.

                        So, it really has a lot to do with your persona 'history' as you create
                        it. I would recommend that you remember that 'ronin' has very negative
                        connotations in Period. In many ways I would point to "The Seven Samurai"
                        as a good film to watch--note the differences in the characters.
                        However, also note that the mercenaries are the villians in that--and more
                        typical of the image associated with ronin.

                        I can't think of a good picture of 'yojimbo'. Sadly, 'Usagi Yojimbo' is
                        the only thing to come to mind and while I enjoy all of the period
                        references and details I would never suggest one use it to figure out what
                        to do to make something period.

                        In general, if you are looking for more destitute clothing, tighter
                        sleeves and trouser legs--as well as shorter--are often seen. You see a
                        lot more skin on the lower classes than the upper classes, usually.

                        As for a name, once again it depends on your history.

                        For a simple peasant who has risen thru the ranks, you might have a
                        descriptor followed by 'no' and then a simple yobina or zokumyou--take a
                        look here: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/Miscellany/Miscellany.html

                        So a man named Matasaburou from Kiso would be Kiso no Matasaburou. People
                        in Kiso might know him as 'Matsunoshita no Matasaburou' (Matasaburou from
                        under the pine tree) due to the huge pine trees that grow around your
                        home. These are, in many ways, harder to find evidence of as it was less
                        likely that peasants would really warrant having their names written down.

                        Coming from the other side of things, a warrior would have a name that he
                        would lay claim to, more often than not. Once again, the Miscellany has a
                        good article on names and naming practices.

                        The one thing you may want to decide on if you go the warrior
                        house/yojimbo route is a nanori, or 'famous name'. This would be the name
                        that your deeds are recorded under. Generally you don't find them in the
                        lower classes, so this has to do with your persona and how you feel about
                        the portrayal you are doing. Regardless, you will most often be known by
                        your occupation or family name. For instance, I am 'Ii', although that is
                        just my family. Likewise with Hiraizumi-dono, Date-dono, etc. You don't
                        often hear people refered to by their position in the SCA due to the
                        language barrier (ie, people don't come up to me in the barony and say
                        'Minister' or 'O-bugyou-sama' because it just isn't natural to us today.)

                        Effingham can shed a lot more light on this particular area, I know for
                        sure. There's still a lot of this stuff that I'm trying to pick up, and
                        most of it is impressions without good solid evidence to back it up at the
                        moment.

                        -Ii

                        On Fri, 7 Mar 2003, Chris Vapenik wrote:

                        >
                        > Hi all,
                        > I have looked at Most of the linked examples of period clothing that
                        > you folks have been generous as to post. I truly am amaised at your
                        > examples, they are beautiful. However I am currious, I wanted to develop
                        > a kind of "Ronin", "Yojimbo" persona, Like a traveling student, (Because
                        > my house is a mercinary house) it would seem to me that they wouldn't
                        > have garb that "nice", what would they wear?
                        > and while I am here, how do I go about looking for a a name?
                        > Thank you in advance...
                        > Chris
                      • Paul Smith
                        Hey Ii, your links didn t quite come out right. You might want to resend. Dude, I didn t know you were purposely going for that look on your green hakama. It
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 7, 2003
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                          Hey Ii, your links didn't quite come out right. You
                          might want to resend.

                          Dude, I didn't know you were purposely going for that
                          look on your green hakama. It _does_ look threadbare.
                          :) I also didn't realize your persona was a
                          'minister'. Zen? Shinto?

                          Paul


                          --- Ii Saburou <logan@...> wrote:

                          ---------------------------------
                          Sounds like you are going for the lower class warrior
                          of the Warring
                          States Period. I would recommend some of the topics
                          stated earlier on
                          'ronin' and you probably want to decide just what kind
                          of a position you
                          would have. That being said:

                          Here is a regular ashigaru:
                          http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm

                          Here is a peasant:
                          http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm

                          This is more what I might imagine seeing a yojimbo
                          wearing:
                          http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm

                          In general, if you are looking for the less affluent
                          look, go with the
                          basic cuts of more extravagant garments, but use less
                          fabric--so thiner
                          sleeves, less expensive fabric (more shibori dyed or
                          block printed linen,
                          with less silk and embroidery), maybe some worn or
                          patchwork materials
                          that look like hand-me-downs (my green hakama are
                          about there--I love
                          them, as they are my most fitting pair, but they have
                          holes and are really
                          getting threadbare.

                          I imagine that would be the most fitting for what you
                          are looking for. An
                          obi is important, and swords would be appropriate.

                          The biggest challenge here is court. This is where
                          the anachronisms often
                          come in, and you have to decide if you are a peasant
                          rising up to gather
                          fame as a warrior, or a warrior who is down on his
                          luck?

                          As a peasant with a rising star (think Toyotomi), you
                          wouldn't need much
                          for court, I would imagine, as the liklihood of you
                          making that far would
                          be rare--so in the SCA I would say that you should
                          probably be aware that
                          most people are still your 'betters' (I get the
                          feeling from some of my
                          readings that Toyotomi had this cloud over his head
                          even when he ruled all
                          of Japan).

                          As a warrior down on his luck you might have at least
                          one really nice
                          outfit--probably a nice (maybe silk?) hitatare and
                          hakama combination.

                          So, it really has a lot to do with your persona
                          'history' as you create
                          it. I would recommend that you remember that 'ronin'
                          has very negative
                          connotations in Period. In many ways I would point to
                          "The Seven Samurai"
                          as a good film to watch--note the differences in the
                          characters.
                          However, also note that the mercenaries are the
                          villians in that--and more
                          typical of the image associated with ronin.

                          I can't think of a good picture of 'yojimbo'. Sadly,
                          'Usagi Yojimbo' is
                          the only thing to come to mind and while I enjoy all
                          of the period
                          references and details I would never suggest one use
                          it to figure out what
                          to do to make something period.

                          In general, if you are looking for more destitute
                          clothing, tighter
                          sleeves and trouser legs--as well as shorter--are
                          often seen. You see a
                          lot more skin on the lower classes than the upper
                          classes, usually.

                          As for a name, once again it depends on your history.

                          For a simple peasant who has risen thru the ranks, you
                          might have a
                          descriptor followed by 'no' and then a simple yobina
                          or zokumyou--take a
                          look here:
                          http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/Miscellany/Miscellany.html

                          So a man named Matasaburou from Kiso would be Kiso no
                          Matasaburou. People
                          in Kiso might know him as 'Matsunoshita no
                          Matasaburou' (Matasaburou from
                          under the pine tree) due to the huge pine trees that
                          grow around your
                          home. These are, in many ways, harder to find
                          evidence of as it was less
                          likely that peasants would really warrant having their
                          names written down.

                          Coming from the other side of things, a warrior would
                          have a name that he
                          would lay claim to, more often than not. Once again,
                          the Miscellany has a
                          good article on names and naming practices.

                          The one thing you may want to decide on if you go the
                          warrior
                          house/yojimbo route is a nanori, or 'famous name'.
                          This would be the name
                          that your deeds are recorded under. Generally you
                          don't find them in the
                          lower classes, so this has to do with your persona and
                          how you feel about
                          the portrayal you are doing. Regardless, you will
                          most often be known by
                          your occupation or family name. For instance, I am
                          'Ii', although that is
                          just my family. Likewise with Hiraizumi-dono,
                          Date-dono, etc. You don't
                          often hear people refered to by their position in the
                          SCA due to the
                          language barrier (ie, people don't come up to me in
                          the barony and say
                          'Minister' or 'O-bugyou-sama' because it just isn't
                          natural to us today.)

                          Effingham can shed a lot more light on this particular
                          area, I know for
                          sure. There's still a lot of this stuff that I'm
                          trying to pick up, and
                          most of it is impressions without good solid evidence
                          to back it up at the
                          moment.

                          -Ii

                          On Fri, 7 Mar 2003, Chris Vapenik wrote:

                          >
                          > Hi all,
                          > I have looked at Most of the linked examples of
                          period clothing that
                          > you folks have been generous as to post. I truly am
                          amaised at your
                          > examples, they are beautiful. However I am currious,
                          I wanted to develop
                          > a kind of "Ronin", "Yojimbo" persona, Like a
                          traveling student, (Because
                          > my house is a mercinary house) it would seem to me
                          that they wouldn't
                          > have garb that "nice", what would they wear?
                          > and while I am here, how do I go about looking for
                          a a name?
                          > Thank you in advance...
                          > Chris



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                        • Ii Saburou
                          Oops. Sorry. I need sleep: Kataginu. For some reason it fits my general perception of yojimbo, but I think that has to do with watching too many Edo period
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 7, 2003
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                            Oops. Sorry. I need sleep:

                            Kataginu. For some reason it fits my general perception of yojimbo, but I
                            think that has to do with watching too many Edo period flicks, when the
                            kataginu kamishimo was really at its height.
                            http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/27.htm

                            Here's the peasant:
                            http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/26.htm

                            Here is the ashigaru:
                            http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/16.htm

                            -Ii

                            On Fri, 7 Mar 2003, Paul Smith wrote:

                            > Hey Ii, your links didn't quite come out right. You
                            > might want to resend.
                            >
                            > Dude, I didn't know you were purposely going for that
                            > look on your green hakama. It _does_ look threadbare.
                            > :) I also didn't realize your persona was a
                            > 'minister'. Zen? Shinto?
                            >
                            > Paul
                            >
                            >
                            > --- Ii Saburou <logan@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Sounds like you are going for the lower class warrior
                            > of the Warring
                            > States Period. I would recommend some of the topics
                            > stated earlier on
                            > 'ronin' and you probably want to decide just what kind
                            > of a position you
                            > would have. That being said:
                            >
                            > Here is a regular ashigaru:
                            > http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm
                            >
                            > Here is a peasant:
                            > http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm
                            >
                            > This is more what I might imagine seeing a yojimbo
                            > wearing:
                            > http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm
                            >
                            > In general, if you are looking for the less affluent
                            > look, go with the
                            > basic cuts of more extravagant garments, but use less
                            > fabric--so thiner
                            > sleeves, less expensive fabric (more shibori dyed or
                            > block printed linen,
                            > with less silk and embroidery), maybe some worn or
                            > patchwork materials
                            > that look like hand-me-downs (my green hakama are
                            > about there--I love
                            > them, as they are my most fitting pair, but they have
                            > holes and are really
                            > getting threadbare.
                            >
                            > I imagine that would be the most fitting for what you
                            > are looking for. An
                            > obi is important, and swords would be appropriate.
                            >
                            > The biggest challenge here is court. This is where
                            > the anachronisms often
                            > come in, and you have to decide if you are a peasant
                            > rising up to gather
                            > fame as a warrior, or a warrior who is down on his
                            > luck?
                            >
                            > As a peasant with a rising star (think Toyotomi), you
                            > wouldn't need much
                            > for court, I would imagine, as the liklihood of you
                            > making that far would
                            > be rare--so in the SCA I would say that you should
                            > probably be aware that
                            > most people are still your 'betters' (I get the
                            > feeling from some of my
                            > readings that Toyotomi had this cloud over his head
                            > even when he ruled all
                            > of Japan).
                            >
                            > As a warrior down on his luck you might have at least
                            > one really nice
                            > outfit--probably a nice (maybe silk?) hitatare and
                            > hakama combination.
                            >
                            > So, it really has a lot to do with your persona
                            > 'history' as you create
                            > it. I would recommend that you remember that 'ronin'
                            > has very negative
                            > connotations in Period. In many ways I would point to
                            > "The Seven Samurai"
                            > as a good film to watch--note the differences in the
                            > characters.
                            > However, also note that the mercenaries are the
                            > villians in that--and more
                            > typical of the image associated with ronin.
                            >
                            > I can't think of a good picture of 'yojimbo'. Sadly,
                            > 'Usagi Yojimbo' is
                            > the only thing to come to mind and while I enjoy all
                            > of the period
                            > references and details I would never suggest one use
                            > it to figure out what
                            > to do to make something period.
                            >
                            > In general, if you are looking for more destitute
                            > clothing, tighter
                            > sleeves and trouser legs--as well as shorter--are
                            > often seen. You see a
                            > lot more skin on the lower classes than the upper
                            > classes, usually.
                            >
                            > As for a name, once again it depends on your history.
                            >
                            > For a simple peasant who has risen thru the ranks, you
                            > might have a
                            > descriptor followed by 'no' and then a simple yobina
                            > or zokumyou--take a
                            > look here:
                            > http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/Miscellany/Miscellany.html
                            >
                            > So a man named Matasaburou from Kiso would be Kiso no
                            > Matasaburou. People
                            > in Kiso might know him as 'Matsunoshita no
                            > Matasaburou' (Matasaburou from
                            > under the pine tree) due to the huge pine trees that
                            > grow around your
                            > home. These are, in many ways, harder to find
                            > evidence of as it was less
                            > likely that peasants would really warrant having their
                            > names written down.
                            >
                            > Coming from the other side of things, a warrior would
                            > have a name that he
                            > would lay claim to, more often than not. Once again,
                            > the Miscellany has a
                            > good article on names and naming practices.
                            >
                            > The one thing you may want to decide on if you go the
                            > warrior
                            > house/yojimbo route is a nanori, or 'famous name'.
                            > This would be the name
                            > that your deeds are recorded under. Generally you
                            > don't find them in the
                            > lower classes, so this has to do with your persona and
                            > how you feel about
                            > the portrayal you are doing. Regardless, you will
                            > most often be known by
                            > your occupation or family name. For instance, I am
                            > 'Ii', although that is
                            > just my family. Likewise with Hiraizumi-dono,
                            > Date-dono, etc. You don't
                            > often hear people refered to by their position in the
                            > SCA due to the
                            > language barrier (ie, people don't come up to me in
                            > the barony and say
                            > 'Minister' or 'O-bugyou-sama' because it just isn't
                            > natural to us today.)
                            >
                            > Effingham can shed a lot more light on this particular
                            > area, I know for
                            > sure. There's still a lot of this stuff that I'm
                            > trying to pick up, and
                            > most of it is impressions without good solid evidence
                            > to back it up at the
                            > moment.
                            >
                            > -Ii
                            >
                            > On Fri, 7 Mar 2003, Chris Vapenik wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            > > Hi all,
                            > > I have looked at Most of the linked examples of
                            > period clothing that
                            > > you folks have been generous as to post. I truly am
                            > amaised at your
                            > > examples, they are beautiful. However I am currious,
                            > I wanted to develop
                            > > a kind of "Ronin", "Yojimbo" persona, Like a
                            > traveling student, (Because
                            > > my house is a mercinary house) it would seem to me
                            > that they wouldn't
                            > > have garb that "nice", what would they wear?
                            > > and while I am here, how do I go about looking for
                            > a a name?
                            > > Thank you in advance...
                            > > Chris
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                          • Chris Vapenik
                            Yeah... I think that is the kind of persona I was going for but was unable to articulate. I appoligize for the use of Ronin and Yojimbo know both are a kind
                            Message 13 of 23 , Mar 8, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Yeah... I think that is the kind of persona I was going for but was unable to articulate. I appoligize for the use of Ronin and Yojimbo know both are a kind of a catch- all term, I think what I was trying to say was shugiyosha ( I think that is the term,- Traveling student warrior ) Because I thought that would be probably be the best way to fit my persona in with my house...
                              as to your suggestion for Time period, you are right, that is exactly the time period that I was thinking about ( mainly because my armor appearence is close to that time) but I am not sure I understand your suggestions for my name...Could you explain a little further? I thank you your help.
                              Doomo Arigato Gozaimashita...
                              Chris
                              Ii Saburou <logan@...> wrote:Sounds like you are going for the lower class warrior of the Warring
                              States Period. I would recommend some of the topics stated earlier on
                              'ronin' and you probably want to decide just what kind of a position you
                              would have. That being said:

                              Here is a regular ashigaru:
                              http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm

                              Here is a peasant:
                              http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm

                              This is more what I might imagine seeing a yojimbo wearing:
                              http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm

                              In general, if you are looking for the less affluent look, go with the
                              basic cuts of more extravagant garments, but use less fabric--so thiner
                              sleeves, less expensive fabric (more shibori dyed or block printed linen,
                              with less silk and embroidery), maybe some worn or patchwork materials
                              that look like hand-me-downs (my green hakama are about there--I love
                              them, as they are my most fitting pair, but they have holes and are really
                              getting threadbare.

                              I imagine that would be the most fitting for what you are looking for. An
                              obi is important, and swords would be appropriate.

                              The biggest challenge here is court. This is where the anachronisms often
                              come in, and you have to decide if you are a peasant rising up to gather
                              fame as a warrior, or a warrior who is down on his luck?

                              As a peasant with a rising star (think Toyotomi), you wouldn't need much
                              for court, I would imagine, as the liklihood of you making that far would
                              be rare--so in the SCA I would say that you should probably be aware that
                              most people are still your 'betters' (I get the feeling from some of my
                              readings that Toyotomi had this cloud over his head even when he ruled all
                              of Japan).

                              As a warrior down on his luck you might have at least one really nice
                              outfit--probably a nice (maybe silk?) hitatare and hakama combination.

                              So, it really has a lot to do with your persona 'history' as you create
                              it. I would recommend that you remember that 'ronin' has very negative
                              connotations in Period. In many ways I would point to "The Seven Samurai"
                              as a good film to watch--note the differences in the characters.
                              However, also note that the mercenaries are the villians in that--and more
                              typical of the image associated with ronin.

                              I can't think of a good picture of 'yojimbo'. Sadly, 'Usagi Yojimbo' is
                              the only thing to come to mind and while I enjoy all of the period
                              references and details I would never suggest one use it to figure out what
                              to do to make something period.

                              In general, if you are looking for more destitute clothing, tighter
                              sleeves and trouser legs--as well as shorter--are often seen. You see a
                              lot more skin on the lower classes than the upper classes, usually.

                              As for a name, once again it depends on your history.

                              For a simple peasant who has risen thru the ranks, you might have a
                              descriptor followed by 'no' and then a simple yobina or zokumyou--take a
                              look here: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/Miscellany/Miscellany.html

                              So a man named Matasaburou from Kiso would be Kiso no Matasaburou. People
                              in Kiso might know him as 'Matsunoshita no Matasaburou' (Matasaburou from
                              under the pine tree) due to the huge pine trees that grow around your
                              home. These are, in many ways, harder to find evidence of as it was less
                              likely that peasants would really warrant having their names written down.

                              Coming from the other side of things, a warrior would have a name that he
                              would lay claim to, more often than not. Once again, the Miscellany has a
                              good article on names and naming practices.

                              The one thing you may want to decide on if you go the warrior
                              house/yojimbo route is a nanori, or 'famous name'. This would be the name
                              that your deeds are recorded under. Generally you don't find them in the
                              lower classes, so this has to do with your persona and how you feel about
                              the portrayal you are doing. Regardless, you will most often be known by
                              your occupation or family name. For instance, I am 'Ii', although that is
                              just my family. Likewise with Hiraizumi-dono, Date-dono, etc. You don't
                              often hear people refered to by their position in the SCA due to the
                              language barrier (ie, people don't come up to me in the barony and say
                              'Minister' or 'O-bugyou-sama' because it just isn't natural to us today.)

                              Effingham can shed a lot more light on this particular area, I know for
                              sure. There's still a lot of this stuff that I'm trying to pick up, and
                              most of it is impressions without good solid evidence to back it up at the
                              moment.

                              -Ii

                              On Fri, 7 Mar 2003, Chris Vapenik wrote:

                              >
                              > Hi all,
                              > I have looked at Most of the linked examples of period clothing that
                              > you folks have been generous as to post. I truly am amaised at your
                              > examples, they are beautiful. However I am currious, I wanted to develop
                              > a kind of "Ronin", "Yojimbo" persona, Like a traveling student, (Because
                              > my house is a mercinary house) it would seem to me that they wouldn't
                              > have garb that "nice", what would they wear?
                              > and while I am here, how do I go about looking for a a name?
                              > Thank you in advance...
                              > Chris



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                            • Solveig
                              Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! Although Yojimbo is clearly a chanbara movie and not a jidaigeki, there are hints about the exact period in the film.
                              Message 14 of 23 , Mar 8, 2003
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                                Noble Cousins!

                                Greetings from Solveig! Although Yojimbo is clearly a chanbara movie and
                                not a jidaigeki, there are hints about the exact period in the film. The
                                film clearly takes place betwwen 1853 and 1868. It most likely takes
                                place after 1865 which places it during a 3 year period in the middle
                                of the nineteenth century. This pretty much excludes the film from
                                the Sengoku period.

                                >As a peasant with a rising star (think Toyotomi), you wouldn't need much
                                >for court, I would imagine, as the liklihood of you making that far would
                                >be rare--so in the SCA I would say that you should probably be aware that
                                >most people are still your 'betters' (I get the feeling from some of my
                                >readings that Toyotomi had this cloud over his head even when he ruled all
                                >of Japan).

                                They faked a lineage for him. Fake lineages were not that rare. Regardless,
                                if you are at court, then you are most likely there in the employ of someone
                                or other. (The other choice is pretty unpleasant as it involves being a
                                prisoner or possibly just a head.) If you are employed, then your employer
                                will cloth you once a year. However, this does not mean that you will be
                                rich or that your employer will be rich. Regardless, court wear is pretty
                                strongly regulated in Japan.

                                >So a man named Matasaburou from Kiso would be Kiso no Matasaburou. People
                                >in Kiso might know him as 'Matsunoshita no Matasaburou' (Matasaburou from
                                >under the pine tree) due to the huge pine trees that grow around your
                                >home. These are, in many ways, harder to find evidence of as it was less
                                >likely that peasants would really warrant having their names written down.

                                Not true. The Japanese relentlessly took the census. Depending upon when
                                you lived, the census was maintained by a local temple or other local
                                institution. What peasants lacked was a right to having specific kinds of
                                name. Also, this business about being from "Kiso" as opposed to "Matsunoshita"
                                sounds a lot more like College of Arms theory than something documentably
                                Japanese. Historically, Japanese collected names for a variety of purposes.
                                They also rather freely changed their names with siblings going by different
                                "family" names.

                                >the portrayal you are doing. Regardless, you will most often be known by
                                >your occupation or family name. For instance, I am 'Ii', although that is
                                >just my family. Likewise with Hiraizumi-dono, Date-dono, etc. You don't
                                >often hear people refered to by their position in the SCA due to the
                                >language barrier (ie, people don't come up to me in the barony and say
                                >'Minister' or 'O-bugyou-sama' because it just isn't natural to us today.)

                                Typical Japanese practice is of course to substitute titles for names.
                                Interestingly enough, Mexicans frequently attach rather specific honourifics
                                to people's names. Regardless, in Japan people are routinely addressed and
                                refered to by descriptors in preference to names. Thus, you will talk about
                                Shachosan, Buchosan, Kachosan, &c. In Ran, you will notice people rushing
                                up to various people and addressing them as "Tono".

                                A shugyosha is more properly a traveling student of Buddhism or possibly
                                a yamabushi. Because of Zendou, this can be a euphemism for a student of
                                Budou. Regardless, unemployment is not generally a desireable state.
                                Before you decide to take it up, please see the film harakiri starring
                                Nakadai.
                                --

                                Your Humble Servant
                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                Amateur Scholar

                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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                              • Ii Saburou
                                ... Really? Okay, I stand corrected on the names--I had been misinformed. I really don t have the best name sources, unfortunately. I was, however, under the
                                Message 15 of 23 , Mar 9, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  On Sun, 9 Mar 2003, Solveig wrote:

                                  > >So a man named Matasaburou from Kiso would be Kiso no Matasaburou. People
                                  > >in Kiso might know him as 'Matsunoshita no Matasaburou' (Matasaburou from
                                  > >under the pine tree) due to the huge pine trees that grow around your
                                  > >home. These are, in many ways, harder to find evidence of as it was less
                                  > >likely that peasants would really warrant having their names written down.
                                  >
                                  > Not true. The Japanese relentlessly took the census. Depending upon when
                                  > you lived, the census was maintained by a local temple or other local
                                  > institution. What peasants lacked was a right to having specific kinds of
                                  > name. Also, this business about being from "Kiso" as opposed to "Matsunoshita"
                                  > sounds a lot more like College of Arms theory than something documentably
                                  > Japanese. Historically, Japanese collected names for a variety of purposes.
                                  > They also rather freely changed their names with siblings going by different
                                  > "family" names.

                                  Really? Okay, I stand corrected on the names--I had been misinformed. I
                                  really don't have the best name sources, unfortunately.

                                  I was, however, under the impression that peasants did not have actual
                                  'family names' until Meiji, when they took on names from the various
                                  families in Japan. Prior to this, if you had two people, you need someway
                                  of identifying them, and so I was under the impression they would be known
                                  by some kind of descriptor.

                                  http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/
                                  http://www.japanorama.com/namesinj.html
                                  http://www4.ncsu.edu/~fljpm/chron/jc31.meiji.pre-prm.html

                                  I need to go back to the library and look at naming practices in
                                  particular again.

                                  -Ii
                                • Solveig
                                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Peasants may have had surnames when the Ritsuryo system was in effect. Later, peasants tended to lack surnames and
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Mar 9, 2003
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                                    Noble Cousin!

                                    Greetings from Solveig! Peasants may have had surnames when the Ritsuryo
                                    system was in effect. Later, peasants tended to lack surnames and
                                    nanori, but that does not mean that they lacked names or that they
                                    were not registered.
                                    --

                                    Your Humble Servant
                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Amateur Scholar

                                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
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                                  • Ii Saburou
                                    ... Do you have some examples we could look at? I know that you see commoner warriors listed with just their name in the Sengoku battlefield. I also know that
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Mar 10, 2003
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      On Sun, 9 Mar 2003, Solveig wrote:

                                      > Noble Cousin!
                                      >
                                      > Greetings from Solveig! Peasants may have had surnames when the Ritsuryo
                                      > system was in effect. Later, peasants tended to lack surnames and
                                      > nanori, but that does not mean that they lacked names or that they
                                      > were not registered.

                                      Do you have some examples we could look at?

                                      I know that you see commoner warriors listed with just their name in the
                                      Sengoku battlefield. I also know that Minamoto no Yoshinaka was referred
                                      to as Kiso no Yoshinaka in "The Tale of the Heike" which Helen Craig
                                      McCullough suggests as a way to liken him more to a common provincial
                                      warrior rather than one worthy of the Minamoto name. Finally, although I
                                      don't have an example of its usage in period, Matsunoshita (or Matsushita)
                                      I have found as a Japanese name and fits the typical 'place name' surname
                                      of many Japanese (eg Fujiwara, Yamanoue, Kinoshita, etc.). So, since
                                      there were surnames drawn from place names and people identified by where
                                      they lived rather than family, I would imagine that the same would hold
                                      true down in the ranks of the commoners, even if they were prohibited from
                                      having any official family names at the time.

                                      However, if you have examples one way or the other, that would help put an
                                      end to the question.

                                      -Ii
                                    • Barbara Nostrand
                                      Ii Dono! Greetings from Solveig! ... Actually, I am recalling a discussion in a book rather specific examples. Unfortunatley, I can not recall the exact source
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Mar 10, 2003
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                                        Ii Dono!

                                        Greetings from Solveig!

                                        > > Greetings from Solveig! Peasants may have had surnames when the Ritsuryo
                                        >> system was in effect. Later, peasants tended to lack surnames and
                                        >> nanori, but that does not mean that they lacked names or that they
                                        >> were not registered.
                                        >
                                        >Do you have some examples we could look at?

                                        Actually, I am recalling a discussion in a book rather specific examples.
                                        Unfortunatley, I can not recall the exact source at the moment, or I would
                                        have included it in the original posting. The idea is that back in the Nara
                                        or Heian period there was a time when the peasants were direct subjects and
                                        had surnames. They then lost these names when they became part of a shoen.
                                        A counter argument would be that these names were just their ancient clan
                                        names and that these never did go away. Regardless, I was bringing up a
                                        time centuries before the Genpei war.

                                        I may have read this in an article in the Cambridge Encycopedia of Japan.
                                        Alas, I have not yet given myself a copy of the Cambridge Encyclopedia.

                                        Your Humble Servant
                                        Solveig Throndardottir
                                        Amateur Scholar
                                        --
                                        +----------------------------------+-----------------------------------+
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                                        | Assistant Professor | SUNY College at Potsdam |
                                        | (315) 267-2216 | Potsdam, New York 13676 |
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                                      • Ii Saburou
                                        ... Ah, okay. I think the gentle is looking specifically for later period naming practices. Do you have any specific advice there? One of the problems is
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Mar 10, 2003
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                                          On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                                          > Actually, I am recalling a discussion in a book rather specific examples.
                                          > Unfortunatley, I can not recall the exact source at the moment, or I would
                                          > have included it in the original posting. The idea is that back in the Nara
                                          > or Heian period there was a time when the peasants were direct subjects and
                                          > had surnames. They then lost these names when they became part of a shoen.
                                          > A counter argument would be that these names were just their ancient clan
                                          > names and that these never did go away. Regardless, I was bringing up a
                                          > time centuries before the Genpei war.

                                          Ah, okay. I think the gentle is looking specifically for later period
                                          naming practices. Do you have any specific advice there?

                                          One of the problems is that the Society generally assumes you are of noble
                                          birth--so going against that tends, of course, to delve into areas less
                                          often looked at. If you want to go the noble route (well, the buke route,
                                          which I think is equivalent to the contemporary western nobility in
                                          practice if not on paper) then there is plenty of advice available.

                                          -Ii
                                        • Solveig
                                          Ii Dono! If they want to be a peasant, I would first of all suggest checking out the Cambridge Encyclopedia as I recall there being a discussion of how
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Mar 11, 2003
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                                            Ii Dono!

                                            If they want to be a peasant, I would first of all suggest checking out
                                            the Cambridge Encyclopedia as I recall there being a discussion of how
                                            villages were run. I know I have read a discussion of that sort of thing
                                            as well. I will rumage around here in a couple of days and see if I have
                                            one here. However, the thing that these people would definitely like is
                                            a nanori. They would also lack a true surname. However, they would still
                                            be registered. I suspect that they would be registered under one of the
                                            be names or ancient clan names. There is so much to do with the kuge,
                                            the buke, and the clergy, that I haven't done a lot with farmers yet.
                                            --

                                            Your Humble Servant
                                            Solveig Throndardottir
                                            Amateur Scholar

                                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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                                          • Anthony J. Bryant
                                            ... The timing on this is fortuitous... Just the other day I ran across a copy I had of an Ikki myouchou -- basically, a signed pledge by a bunch of folks
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Mar 11, 2003
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                                              Ii Saburou wrote:

                                              > Really? Okay, I stand corrected on the names--I had been misinformed. I
                                              > really don't have the best name sources, unfortunately.
                                              >

                                              The timing on this is fortuitous...

                                              Just the other day I ran across a copy I had of an Ikki myouchou -- basically, a
                                              signed pledge by a bunch of folks forming an ikki. There are appended to the short
                                              document some 150 names, 53 of them belonging to women.

                                              They're all commoners, too-- not a samurai in the bunch (though there are a couple
                                              of monks joining in).

                                              It's a fascinating study of literacy (of the 53 female signatures, for example,
                                              only four have kanji in them; about half of the male names do. (Even a name like
                                              "Mataroku" -- "sixth son of a sixth son" is written in katakana rather than kanji.
                                              "Mata" is only two strokes, and "roku" is only a number!) I plan to have a basic
                                              analysis done of the names tonight, and when I have it done, I'll post the list and
                                              findings in the files section.

                                              >
                                              > I was, however, under the impression that peasants did not have actual
                                              > 'family names' until Meiji, when they took on names from the various
                                              > families in Japan. Prior to this, if you had two people, you need someway
                                              > of identifying them, and so I was under the impression they would be known
                                              > by some kind of descriptor.

                                              What you would likely have for commoners (at least those that are stationary) are
                                              occupational or descriptives. Typically, they had an occupational term tacked on
                                              (e.g., "John [the] Grocer" or "Yaoya no Mataichi") or so on. As a descriptive, you
                                              have things like Charles the Fat (e.g., Nossori Saburou -- "Plodding Saburou").
                                              Note that the appositive adjective comes *before* the name.

                                              When everyone is in the same town, a "So-and-so of Suchaplace" name is meaningless
                                              -- especially as one doesn't usually travel. If one were to travel, of course, all
                                              bets would be off.

                                              I notice that commoner's names make much more (read: almost exclusive) use of
                                              zokumyou, and not nanori.


                                              Effingham
                                            • Chris Vapenik
                                              Maybe it is my misunderstanding, but I m not sure if this is true to the idea of my original question... I wanted to develop a persona that was of the bushi
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Mar 11, 2003
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Maybe it is my misunderstanding, but I'm not sure if this is true to the idea of my original question... I wanted to develop a persona that was of the bushi class, but who wasn't a yet a ranking officer. one who ( as Ii Dono was so helpful as to suggest) was trying to make a name for himself. It is my understanding that later in the Momoyama Period (my chosen period) they had the "sword hunt" and peasants were not able to bear arms. I don't think that I necessarily want to be a peasant, however I had mentioned that I didn't think that one in such a situation would have a "nice" set of clothes, or an elaborate name. so I was wondering could help me find patterns for something that a "not so well off" bushi would wear, and any suggestions on how to look for a name.
                                                I appoligise for the confusion...
                                                - Chris
                                                "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote: Ii Saburou wrote:

                                                > Really? Okay, I stand corrected on the names--I had been misinformed. I
                                                > really don't have the best name sources, unfortunately.
                                                >

                                                The timing on this is fortuitous...

                                                Just the other day I ran across a copy I had of an Ikki myouchou -- basically, a
                                                signed pledge by a bunch of folks forming an ikki. There are appended to the short
                                                document some 150 names, 53 of them belonging to women.

                                                They're all commoners, too-- not a samurai in the bunch (though there are a couple
                                                of monks joining in).

                                                It's a fascinating study of literacy (of the 53 female signatures, for example,
                                                only four have kanji in them; about half of the male names do. (Even a name like
                                                "Mataroku" -- "sixth son of a sixth son" is written in katakana rather than kanji.
                                                "Mata" is only two strokes, and "roku" is only a number!) I plan to have a basic
                                                analysis done of the names tonight, and when I have it done, I'll post the list and
                                                findings in the files section.

                                                >
                                                > I was, however, under the impression that peasants did not have actual
                                                > 'family names' until Meiji, when they took on names from the various
                                                > families in Japan. Prior to this, if you had two people, you need someway
                                                > of identifying them, and so I was under the impression they would be known
                                                > by some kind of descriptor.

                                                What you would likely have for commoners (at least those that are stationary) are
                                                occupational or descriptives. Typically, they had an occupational term tacked on
                                                (e.g., "John [the] Grocer" or "Yaoya no Mataichi") or so on. As a descriptive, you
                                                have things like Charles the Fat (e.g., Nossori Saburou -- "Plodding Saburou").
                                                Note that the appositive adjective comes *before* the name.

                                                When everyone is in the same town, a "So-and-so of Suchaplace" name is meaningless
                                                -- especially as one doesn't usually travel. If one were to travel, of course, all
                                                bets would be off.

                                                I notice that commoner's names make much more (read: almost exclusive) use of
                                                zokumyou, and not nanori.


                                                Effingham



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