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Re: [SCA-JML] Japanese personas..things on AA are getting snippy...

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  • Donald J. Luby
    ... Exactly - even if they managed to get rid of Japanese, well, let s see: the Mongols carried their invasion as far west as Poland until Genghis; and the
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 2, 2003
      On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 02:11 AM, Paul Smith wrote:

      > I'm too new to this to really answer, but I can say I wish those guys
      > would get a grip.  The organization is knee deep in Asian personas
      > already so it's a little too late for them to just hope they all go
      > away. 

      Exactly - even if they managed to 'get rid of' Japanese, well, let's
      see: the Mongols carried their invasion as far west as Poland until
      Genghis; and the Turks (after they defeated the native rulers in
      Persia, Assyria, and Asia Minor), who were also a Central Asiatic
      people conquered what was left of Byzantium, and then pressed onwards
      into Europe to the gates of Vienna. So there's lots of historic
      precendent for not only lots of contact between Asian peoples and
      Europe, heck, Asians almost conquered Europe, twice!
      Then there are the major Asian households in the SCA (the ones I'm
      familiar with are the various 'flavors' of the Horde, the Rozakii, and,
      of course Yama Kaminari :); I'm sure there are more that I'm unfamiliar
      with), all of whom have significant influence in their home kingdoms.

      > I think the best way to fight the attitude is through things like Ii's
      > most excellent award.  It's hard to really complain about excellence
      > and dedication to period.

      Exactly. Not to mention the various other arts awards that various
      Japanese personae have received of late, all of which seem to make big
      splashes wherever they are.

      >   And they're not going to win any chivalry awards refusing to fight a
      > guy in great armour because he happens to be a Japanese persona.

      They're also not going to win any tourneys, if there are (enough)
      Japanese personae fighting - it's a lose-lose proposition for them,
      unless they happen to disallow Japanese (and other Asian personae) to
      even compete; which, so long as the armor is safe and legal, I'm pretty
      sure they will not be able to do, or at least without having major
      kingdom and society marshals come down hard on them. And, given the
      really awful armor I see out there, which is not Japanese, I really
      doubt any kingdom is going to be able to legislate against
      Japanese-style armor without having fully eradicated the fantasy or
      just plain awful armor first and completely.

      > If nothing else it smacks of racisim and I doubt it would be tolerated
      > for very long.

      I'm not sure of racism is the right term - perhaps 'misguided elitism'
      or 'unwarranted eurocentrism' is more accurate. Or maybe just plain
      ignorance.

      > Paul
      >
      > BTW, no, I'm not calling those guys racists.  I'm just saying it looks
      > bad when someone wont play with someone because he's 'Japanese'.  I
      > think a lot of people would be uncomfortable by a blatant refusal to
      > take the field for that reason alone.
      >


      Sir Koredono

      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      -------
      Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
      Koredono, KSCA
      djl@...
      Yama-kaminari-ryu
      Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands,
      AEthelmearc



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Solveig
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Nobody is going to succeed in forcing non-Europeans out of the Society anytime within the next five to ten years. What
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig! Nobody is going to succeed in forcing
        non-Europeans out of the Society anytime within the next five
        to ten years. What will continue to happen is that people will
        appoint themselves as ethno-purity police and intimidate more
        vulnurable individuals. Even some of the self-appointed guardians
        will make "exceptions" for people that they personally like.
        Hypocritical behavior? You bet.
        --

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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      • Solveig
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Actually, they are trying. A number of them got onto the Corpora rewrite committee and wrote Western and Eruopean
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig!

          >I'm too new to this to really answer, but I can say I
          >wish those guys would get a grip. The organization is
          >knee deep in Asian personas already so it's a little
          >too late for them to just hope they all go away.

          Actually, they are trying. A number of them got onto the Corpora rewrite
          committee and wrote "Western" and "Eruopean" into many places where they
          weren't. However, this sort of restrictive language has limited impact
          when there are important and in some cases legendary figures in the
          Society who research and recreate non-European stuff. I really doubt that
          you will see many people swatting Duke Carriadoc of the Bow for doing
          North African stuff. What you will see people do is swat more vulnerable
          people. For example. Kingdoms with non-open crown lists may well see
          non Western-Eruopeans having a hard time getting into crown tournament.
          Isn't chivalry great?
          --

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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          | the trash by my email filters. |
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        • Ii Saburou
          ... I have noticed, however, that it seems to be a very vocal minority, encouraged by the forum s creator, that feel this way. This is indicative of the type
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
            On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, Aimee <rjb@...> wrote:

            > Has anyone seen the armour archive plastic threads? It seems that
            > there are a fair number of people who just wish us non european
            > personas would just go away, or would like to chuck us out themselves,
            > going so far as to refuse to fight anyone whose persona they don't
            > approve of.

            I have noticed, however, that it seems to be a very vocal minority,
            encouraged by the forum's creator, that feel this way. This is indicative
            of the type of attitude that has caused at least one other friend of mine
            (not a Japanese persona, btw) to leave that forum.

            > So if these people were ever to get their way, and we were no longer
            > allowed to play Japanese, or anything else non european for that
            > matter, would you stay in the SCA and knuckle under with a european
            > persona, or would you leave the group?

            Well, I have a European persona, so it isn't that hard for me. But I have
            MPD (Multiple Persona Disorder), so I'm not typical.

            On the other hand, I really would like to start a subgroup out here in the
            DC area that is just focused on Asian history. I don't expect it to be
            anything big, and I figure it will be something similar to a household as
            a political organization in the SCA, but I want to also get away from the
            SCA in certain areas. I also figure that if the SCA ever decides to kick
            out non-European personae, then I'll have a place to go and do my hobby.

            But it won't be on the scale of the SCA--Asian history just isn't popular
            enough. I would probably try for a smaller, more concentrated group that
            gave demos and attempted to do actual re-enactments. Then again, with the
            Cherry Blossom Festival and the like, I think there is more of a venue for
            that here than most other places.

            -Ii
          • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie <ka
            ... -I personally would stand in the middle of them with my armor on and my stick in hand. They would have to stay in hold untill you left the eric or field.
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
              >...would you stay in the SCA and knuckle under with a european
              > persona, or would you leave the group?

              -I personally would stand in the middle of them with my armor on and
              my stick in hand. They would have to stay in hold untill you left the
              eric or field. If they try to forcibly eject you, you get to
              fight...and if they don't, you still get to fight... ;-0
              Date

              <wink>After this mess, a new idea will have to be explored...AAA -
              Armor Archive Anon - a twelve step program for removing undesirable
              personas and materials... </wink>
              Shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the recycle center </nested wink>
            • ELAINE KOOGLER
              To be honest, I seriously doubt that they will get their way. It s been tried before, with a notable lack of success (note that we re still here!!!). I don t
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
                To be honest, I seriously doubt that they will get their way. It's
                been tried before, with a notable lack of success (note that we're
                still here!!!). I don't know who these people are, but I can tell you
                that getting rid of all non-European personas would involve kicking out
                several Dukes, most notably Duke Cariadoc of the Bow...one of the early
                main forces in the SCA (first King of the East at a Pennsic...actually,
                as King of the Middle, declared war on himself!!...or was it the other
                way 'round.....)

                So no, it won't happen. The SCA would lose 'way too much to even try
                this...as I said above, several Dukes, the Dark Horde, Moritu Horde,
                Silver Horde and several notable Japanese clans, not to mention all of
                those ME folks!

                Kiri



                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Aimee <rjb@...>" <rjb@...>
                Date: Monday, March 3, 2003 0:01 am
                Subject: [SCA-JML] Japanese personas..things on AA are getting snippy...

                > <span><p><span><p>
                >
                >
                > <tt>
                > Has anyone seen the armour archive plastic threads? It seems that
                >
                > there are a fair number of people who just wish us non european
                >
                > personas would just go away, or would like to chuck us out
                > themselves,
                >
                > going so far as to refuse to fight anyone whose persona they don't
                >
                > approve of.
                >
                >
                >
                > So if these people were ever to get their way, and we were no
                > longer
                >
                > allowed to play Japanese, or anything else non european for that
                >
                > matter, would you stay in the SCA and knuckle under with a
                > european
                >
                > persona, or would you leave the group?
                >
                >
                >
                > I would leave, myself. If continuing to play meant that I would be
                >
                > forced to adapt a persona that means nothing to me, and on top of
                >
                > that, I now had to go out and get all new garb, that I was not
                > even
                >
                > really interested in, I would say to hell with it and leave.
                >
                > How about you?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > </tt>
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • Solveig
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Living history demonstrations and encampments are a better choice than re-enactments. You tend to have to have a LOT of
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig! Living history demonstrations and encampments are
                  a better choice than re-enactments. You tend to have to have a LOT of people
                  to do re-enactments of anything particularly well known and everyone has to
                  stick to a pretty rigid script.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar
                  --

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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