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Re: [SCA-JML] Seperate questions about armour

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  • Donald J. Luby
    ... First off, regardless of whether it s a true issue or not, it s always good to see such concern.` ... I used to wear yoroi of one piece of barrel plastic
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 2, 2003
      On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 12:12 AM, Ash Smith wrote:

      > After actually cutting and working with some of my kozane today, I am
      > a little concerned that I will not be able to readily feel shots
      > through my armor.

      First off, regardless of whether it's a true issue or not, it's always
      good to see such concern.`

      > Currently I wear minimal armor, plus a chest and back plate... chest
      > is a single layer of black barrel (one piece), and the back is leather
      > squares "sewn" together beside one an other (no overlap) then it has a
      > thin packing quilt taped inside.
      > (Then covered by a tabard so that it doesn't look so horrible)
      >
      > But my new armor , with the kozane overlap is going to be over 1/2"
      > thick! (1/4" ABS overlapped + thickness from lacing).

      I used to wear yoroi of one piece of barrel plastic for each major
      plate (breast, back, sides) with some kusizuri hanging off, and
      large-ish sode - not too ugly, very functional. I switched (at least
      for events) to 3/8" ABS about 6 months ago, with double thickness where
      the banding overlaps (and doubly so where the two side plates overlap),
      with lots more lacing. While it's a bit thicker, the change has never
      presented me with that much of an issue.

      > Anyway, I currently tell a good/light shot by feeling the force and
      > sting through my armor (or feeling it where I have no armor :P ), and
      > am worried that I won't properly call others' shots with what looks
      > like it is going to be some massive armor hehe.

      I usually take any body shots that hit clean and square, and appeared
      to have been thrown with reasonable force and technique, so the only
      shots that I don't take either glance off, don't really reach me (usu.
      because one or both of us are moving) or are just thrown badly with no
      force behind them.

      > Any thoughts on this matter?

      At your first few practices (and even events) in your new armor, tell
      your opponents "I've just switched style and protectiveness of armor;
      if you think I'm not taking shots like I should, please let me know, so
      I can gauge them better in my new harness". This will cause your
      opponents to think that you're not a rhino, and more importantly, that
      you're trying to actively not become a rhino; most people will help you
      in this as much as possible. And, with time, you'll get a feel for
      what your old calibration was, w/t your new harness.

      > Thanks,
      > Ash




      Sir Koredono

      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      -------
      Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
      Koredono, KSCA
      djl@...
      Yama-kaminari-ryu
      Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands,
      AEthelmearc
    • Solveig
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Practice. It s your responsiblity to learn to reliably recognize good shots. -- Your Humble Servant Solveig
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        >Any thoughts on this matter?

        Practice. It's your responsiblity to learn to reliably recognize good shots.
        --

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
        | the trash by my email filters. |
        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
      • Ii Saburou
        ... I call just about anything I hear. Does this mean I sometimes call things too light? Yes, and I trust my opponent s honor to tell me otherwise. Does this
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
          On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, Ash Smith wrote:

          > Anyway, I currently tell a good/light shot by feeling the force and sting
          > through my armor (or feeling it where I have no armor :P ), and am worried
          > that I won't properly call others' shots with what looks like it is going to
          > be some massive armor hehe.
          >
          > Any thoughts on this matter?

          I call just about anything I hear. Does this mean I sometimes call things
          too light? Yes, and I trust my opponent's honor to tell me otherwise.
          Does this mean I sometimes don't hear or feel things--rarely, and I trust
          my opponent's honor to forgive such lapses.

          I have only once had a time where an opponent mentioned that I did not
          seem notice a good blow. I was stepping forward, hitting my opponent, hit
          his shield and was bounced off at the same time he hit me. The
          combination of noise and commotion was too much and his blow felt, to me,
          as though I had run into him or his shield, not his sword (and he was so
          quick, I thought his sword was elsewhere when it landed).

          Personally, I am of the mind that one should strive not to be hit at all,
          and so calling the lighter shots will force me to acquire more skill. I
          may be off in this thinking, but that's how I feel.

          Furthermore, I don't think pain should be a gauge. A good blow will give
          you momentum, and you should 'feel' it land, just not be hurt by it. That
          is, after all, the nature of armour.

          -Ii
        • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie <ka
          ... through my armor (or feeling it where I have no armor :P ), and am worried that I won t properly call others shots with what looks like it is going to be
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
            >Anyway, I currently tell a good/light shot by feeling the force and sting
            through my armor (or feeling it where I have no armor :P ), and am worried
            that I won't properly call others' shots with what looks like it is
            going to
            be some massive armor hehe.

            This is where your skill in combat will improve, because you will
            start seeing the enemy's weapon path subconciously, and it will figure
            in to the equation of "was that a good shot?" If the shot came in
            clean, and you did nothing to defend against it...that thud was
            probably good. Err on the side of 'giving' the opponent the shot, till
            you feel comfortable calling the shots you feel, or hear.
            Your awareness of where you were and where the opponent was during a
            shot will lead to a higher level of combat. After that, you will not
            be hit as often (unless you enjoy being hit...) and the problem is
            self rectifying.
            Many of us fight in heavy steel harnesses and suffer from the same
            "problem" , though I can't say I have a half inch of combined
            thickness of armor anywhere except the padding in my kabuto and menpo.

            Date Yukiie
            http://www.kabutographics.com
            kabuto@...
            Shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the grave
          • ELAINE KOOGLER
            Congratulations, Ii-dono! I m so very proud of you. This is certainly a well-deserved honor. I m also quite certain that Effingham is very proud as well!
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
              Congratulations, Ii-dono! I'm so very proud of you. This is certainly
              a well-deserved honor. I'm also quite certain that Effingham is very
              proud as well!

              Kiri



              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "daviem01 <ellen.m.davis@...>" <ellen.m.davis@...>
              Date: Sunday, March 2, 2003 10:04 pm
              Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Seperate questions about armour

              > <span><p><span><p>
              >
              >
              > <tt>
              > > The current suit requires massive reworking, however. I hope
              > to be
              >
              > > fighting again, soon, but I then am thinking about doing a
              >
              > completely new
              >
              > > dou, just because the one I have right now is not good for
              > regular
              >
              > SCA
              >
              > > Combat armour.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > -Ii, who has too many projects right now.
              >
              >
              >
              > On a related note (and because he would never mention it himself)
              > I
              >
              > am pleased to announce that Ii-dono was awarded the Silver
              > Nautilus
              >
              > by His Atlantian Majesty Cuan yesterday at our Kingdom Arts and
              >
              > Sciences Festival.
              >
              >
              >
              > The Silver Nautilus is an award given for a single
              > "surpassingly
              >
              > excellent" achievement or project in the Arts and Sciences.
              > Ii-
              >
              > dono's particular achievement that caught His Majesty's eye was
              > his
              >
              > Persona Pentathlon entry, which included several examples of
              > Momoyama
              >
              > clothing (dobuku, kataginu kamishimo, and suo no kamishimo), a
              >
              > calligraphy sample, but in particular the above-mentioned armour,
              > an
              >
              > example of ryo-awase nimaido. The entire assemblage was
              >
              > declared "most fitting of a Japanese warrior" by His
              > Majesty.
              >
              >
              > Ei! Ei! Oooooh!
              >
              >
              >
              > -Aine
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > </tt>
              >
              >
              >
              >
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            • Anthony J. Bryant
              ... General comment: Holy crap! That s .... um..... thick. I wouldn t use anything more than 3/16 for kozane, and part of me
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 4, 2003
                Ash Smith wrote:

                >
                > But my new armor , with the kozane overlap is going to be over 1/2" thick!
                > (1/4" ABS overlapped + thickness from lacing).
                >

                General comment:

                <Frank Barone> Holy crap! </Frank Barone>

                That's .... um..... thick. I wouldn't use anything more than 3/16 for kozane,
                and part of me actually prefers 1/8", given the overlap.

                Effingham
              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... Brilliant!! Very, frikkin well done!!!! And while we re congratulating folks.... Did someone tell me our own Yayoi-monster Aine is recently in receipt of
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 4, 2003
                  "daviem01 " wrote:

                  >
                  > On a related note (and because he would never mention it himself) I
                  > am pleased to announce that Ii-dono was awarded the Silver Nautilus
                  > by His Atlantian Majesty Cuan yesterday at our Kingdom Arts and
                  > Sciences Festival.
                  >

                  Brilliant!!

                  Very, frikkin' well done!!!!


                  And while we're congratulating folks....

                  Did someone tell me our own Yayoi-monster Aine is recently in receipt of an
                  Award of Arms?

                  Well done, both of you!!!


                  Effingham
                  Doing the happy peer dance...
                • Ash Smith
                  Well when I was ordering my plastic I ask around and the general consensus was 1/4 ... perhaps I wasn t clear that I was going to be making kozane hehe. But
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 4, 2003
                    Well when I was ordering my plastic I ask around and the general consensus
                    was 1/4" ... perhaps I wasn't clear that I was going to be making kozane
                    hehe.

                    But it's too late now, it's already paid for and partially cut... perhaps I
                    should stop while I don't have much of the kozane cut, and do Kiritsuke
                    Zane?

                    Would actually save me some plastic too... and instead of putting the strips
                    of leather/etc, with the plastic I could actually heat and bend it up in
                    those portions to zig-zag and (hopefully) do a bit better illusion.

                    Ash


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                    To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 7:50 AM
                    Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Seperate questions about armour


                    > General comment:
                    >
                    > <Frank Barone> Holy crap! </Frank Barone>
                    >
                    > That's .... um..... thick. I wouldn't use anything more than 3/16 for
                    kozane,
                    > and part of me actually prefers 1/8", given the overlap.
                    >
                    > Effingham
                    >
                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                    ... That would be a difference. ... That s what I d use plastic of those dimensions for, yes... assuming it s flexible enough that it wouldn t shatter.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 5, 2003
                      Ash Smith wrote:

                      > Well when I was ordering my plastic I ask around and the general consensus
                      > was 1/4" ... perhaps I wasn't clear that I was going to be making kozane
                      > hehe.
                      >

                      That would be a difference. <G>

                      >
                      > But it's too late now, it's already paid for and partially cut... perhaps I
                      > should stop while I don't have much of the kozane cut, and do Kiritsuke
                      > Zane?
                      >

                      That's what I'd use plastic of those dimensions for, yes... assuming it's
                      flexible enough that it wouldn't shatter. Remember that cutting down the ribs
                      for kiritsuke-zane would weaken the plastic, and if your plastic is the brittle
                      kind, it could shatter on you and ruin all that effort. If you can cut a lame
                      section and waffle it around a bit without it snapping, it should be safe for
                      kiritsuke-zane.



                      Effingham
                    • jim e grunst
                      On Tue, 04 Mar 2003 14:27:57 -0500 Ash Smith ... The larger the piece, and the more curve to the piece, and also the more holes you have,
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 5, 2003
                        On Tue, 04 Mar 2003 14:27:57 -0500 Ash Smith <kobushi@...>
                        writes:
                        > Well when I was ordering my plastic I ask around and the general
                        > consensus
                        > was 1/4" ... perhaps I wasn't clear that I was going to be making
                        > kozane
                        > hehe.
                        >

                        The larger the piece, and the more curve to the piece, and also the more
                        holes you have, the more likely you'll have broken pieces.
                        I'd go thicker.
                        Also, you are using ABS rather than Kydex?
                        ABS breaks more readily than Kydex, if I'm not mistaken.
                        Have you considered ALUMINUM?

                        Tochiro

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                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                        ... For something phenomenally useful like this, $200 is peanuts!! I d like to get to where the kozane could have a per-unit cost of about 25 cents or less.
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 11, 2003
                          "Donald J. Luby" wrote:

                          >
                          > > I'm currently trying to find someone who can produce a punch that would
                          > > allow for the mass-production of kozane -- like the folks at Noble
                          > > Plastic
                          > > used to make their scales.
                          > >
                          > > If I can do that, I think we could do a lot by having people actually
                          > > have
                          > > access to good, functional kozane.
                          >
                          > That would be excellent! Please keep us informed as to your success.
                          > We thought we might have something for a while (one of the knights in
                          > the area had a contact at an injection-molding place, and would do hire
                          > work), but I think it feel through because of the initial costs
                          > involved (I think making the dies involved ran in the $200 range).
                          > Maybe when I see him next week, I'll ask - it may still be a
                          > possibility, and economically feasible if we have enough interest.
                          >

                          For something phenomenally useful like this, $200 is peanuts!! I'd like to
                          get to where the kozane could have a per-unit cost of about 25 cents or
                          less.

                          Effingham
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