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Re: [SCA-JML] Japanese personas..things on AA are getting snippy...

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  • Donald J. Luby
    On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 12:01 AM, Aimee ... I don t read AA, but I do read and post on the Known World Chivalry dlist, and while
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 2, 2003
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      On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 12:01 AM, Aimee <rjb@...>
      wrote:

      > Has anyone seen the armour archive plastic threads? It seems that
      > there are a fair number of people who just wish us non european
      > personas would just go away, or would like to chuck us out themselves,
      > going so far as to refuse to fight anyone whose persona they don't
      > approve of.

      I don't read AA, but I do read and post on the Known World Chivalry
      dlist, and while some of them disapprove of anything non-Western
      European in the middle part of period (1300 - 1450, approx), or even
      non-mainsteam Euros in general, none have gone so far as to suggest not
      fighting anyone they "don't approve of".
      A bad answer might be to not worry about it, and if they chose to not
      fight you in a tourney, well, then they'd have to forfeit the fight and
      lose; and while I think there are some people whose principles (as
      misguided as they might be) would drive them that far, I think the vast
      majority of folks would rather test their mettle against any opponent
      that acted in a chivalrous fashion, or were too driven by their desire
      to win, to just forfeit a fight on such grounds.
      Without knowing who these folks are, I think they're more than likely
      a bunch of extremist hotheads, without any strong basis of support, and
      thus can be largely safely ignored.

      > So if these people were ever to get their way, and we were no longer
      > allowed to play Japanese, or anything else non european for that
      > matter, would you stay in the SCA and knuckle under with a european
      > persona, or would you leave the group?

      In that hypothetical situation, I don't know what I'd do. Since
      there are enough high-powered non-Euro's in most (every?) kingdom(s), I
      find it highly unlikely that such a thing would ever come to pass. For
      starters, they would have to re-write the corporate by-laws, which I'm
      fairly certain the Board wouldn't allow without a really good reason,
      and on top of that major hurdle, they would have to overcome 35+ years
      of tradition everywhere, which could be even more difficult.

      > I would leave, myself. If continuing to play meant that I would be
      > forced to adapt a persona that means nothing to me, and on top of
      > that, I now had to go out and get all new garb, that I was not even
      > really interested in, I would say to hell with it and leave. How
      > about you?

      To be honest, a large majority of the reason I'm in the SCA (these
      days) is because of the friends I've made over the years in the SCA; i
      could continue to do Japanese research, and fight in a Japanese style,
      with my friends, if the SCA disappeared tomorrow. If seeing my other
      friends on a regular basis (esp. the ones who live far away from me)
      meant putting on the occasional funny Euro clothes, I might do it,



      Sir Koredono

      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      -------
      Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
      Koredono, KSCA
      djl@...
      Yama-kaminari-ryu
      Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands,
      AEthelmearc
    • Donald J. Luby
      ... Exactly - even if they managed to get rid of Japanese, well, let s see: the Mongols carried their invasion as far west as Poland until Genghis; and the
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 2, 2003
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        On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 02:11 AM, Paul Smith wrote:

        > I'm too new to this to really answer, but I can say I wish those guys
        > would get a grip.  The organization is knee deep in Asian personas
        > already so it's a little too late for them to just hope they all go
        > away. 

        Exactly - even if they managed to 'get rid of' Japanese, well, let's
        see: the Mongols carried their invasion as far west as Poland until
        Genghis; and the Turks (after they defeated the native rulers in
        Persia, Assyria, and Asia Minor), who were also a Central Asiatic
        people conquered what was left of Byzantium, and then pressed onwards
        into Europe to the gates of Vienna. So there's lots of historic
        precendent for not only lots of contact between Asian peoples and
        Europe, heck, Asians almost conquered Europe, twice!
        Then there are the major Asian households in the SCA (the ones I'm
        familiar with are the various 'flavors' of the Horde, the Rozakii, and,
        of course Yama Kaminari :); I'm sure there are more that I'm unfamiliar
        with), all of whom have significant influence in their home kingdoms.

        > I think the best way to fight the attitude is through things like Ii's
        > most excellent award.  It's hard to really complain about excellence
        > and dedication to period.

        Exactly. Not to mention the various other arts awards that various
        Japanese personae have received of late, all of which seem to make big
        splashes wherever they are.

        >   And they're not going to win any chivalry awards refusing to fight a
        > guy in great armour because he happens to be a Japanese persona.

        They're also not going to win any tourneys, if there are (enough)
        Japanese personae fighting - it's a lose-lose proposition for them,
        unless they happen to disallow Japanese (and other Asian personae) to
        even compete; which, so long as the armor is safe and legal, I'm pretty
        sure they will not be able to do, or at least without having major
        kingdom and society marshals come down hard on them. And, given the
        really awful armor I see out there, which is not Japanese, I really
        doubt any kingdom is going to be able to legislate against
        Japanese-style armor without having fully eradicated the fantasy or
        just plain awful armor first and completely.

        > If nothing else it smacks of racisim and I doubt it would be tolerated
        > for very long.

        I'm not sure of racism is the right term - perhaps 'misguided elitism'
        or 'unwarranted eurocentrism' is more accurate. Or maybe just plain
        ignorance.

        > Paul
        >
        > BTW, no, I'm not calling those guys racists.  I'm just saying it looks
        > bad when someone wont play with someone because he's 'Japanese'.  I
        > think a lot of people would be uncomfortable by a blatant refusal to
        > take the field for that reason alone.
        >


        Sir Koredono

        ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        -------
        Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
        Koredono, KSCA
        djl@...
        Yama-kaminari-ryu
        Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands,
        AEthelmearc



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Solveig
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Nobody is going to succeed in forcing non-Europeans out of the Society anytime within the next five to ten years. What
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
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          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig! Nobody is going to succeed in forcing
          non-Europeans out of the Society anytime within the next five
          to ten years. What will continue to happen is that people will
          appoint themselves as ethno-purity police and intimidate more
          vulnurable individuals. Even some of the self-appointed guardians
          will make "exceptions" for people that they personally like.
          Hypocritical behavior? You bet.
          --

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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        • Solveig
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Actually, they are trying. A number of them got onto the Corpora rewrite committee and wrote Western and Eruopean
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
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            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig!

            >I'm too new to this to really answer, but I can say I
            >wish those guys would get a grip. The organization is
            >knee deep in Asian personas already so it's a little
            >too late for them to just hope they all go away.

            Actually, they are trying. A number of them got onto the Corpora rewrite
            committee and wrote "Western" and "Eruopean" into many places where they
            weren't. However, this sort of restrictive language has limited impact
            when there are important and in some cases legendary figures in the
            Society who research and recreate non-European stuff. I really doubt that
            you will see many people swatting Duke Carriadoc of the Bow for doing
            North African stuff. What you will see people do is swat more vulnerable
            people. For example. Kingdoms with non-open crown lists may well see
            non Western-Eruopeans having a hard time getting into crown tournament.
            Isn't chivalry great?
            --

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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          • Ii Saburou
            ... I have noticed, however, that it seems to be a very vocal minority, encouraged by the forum s creator, that feel this way. This is indicative of the type
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
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              On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, Aimee <rjb@...> wrote:

              > Has anyone seen the armour archive plastic threads? It seems that
              > there are a fair number of people who just wish us non european
              > personas would just go away, or would like to chuck us out themselves,
              > going so far as to refuse to fight anyone whose persona they don't
              > approve of.

              I have noticed, however, that it seems to be a very vocal minority,
              encouraged by the forum's creator, that feel this way. This is indicative
              of the type of attitude that has caused at least one other friend of mine
              (not a Japanese persona, btw) to leave that forum.

              > So if these people were ever to get their way, and we were no longer
              > allowed to play Japanese, or anything else non european for that
              > matter, would you stay in the SCA and knuckle under with a european
              > persona, or would you leave the group?

              Well, I have a European persona, so it isn't that hard for me. But I have
              MPD (Multiple Persona Disorder), so I'm not typical.

              On the other hand, I really would like to start a subgroup out here in the
              DC area that is just focused on Asian history. I don't expect it to be
              anything big, and I figure it will be something similar to a household as
              a political organization in the SCA, but I want to also get away from the
              SCA in certain areas. I also figure that if the SCA ever decides to kick
              out non-European personae, then I'll have a place to go and do my hobby.

              But it won't be on the scale of the SCA--Asian history just isn't popular
              enough. I would probably try for a smaller, more concentrated group that
              gave demos and attempted to do actual re-enactments. Then again, with the
              Cherry Blossom Festival and the like, I think there is more of a venue for
              that here than most other places.

              -Ii
            • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie <ka
              ... -I personally would stand in the middle of them with my armor on and my stick in hand. They would have to stay in hold untill you left the eric or field.
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
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                >...would you stay in the SCA and knuckle under with a european
                > persona, or would you leave the group?

                -I personally would stand in the middle of them with my armor on and
                my stick in hand. They would have to stay in hold untill you left the
                eric or field. If they try to forcibly eject you, you get to
                fight...and if they don't, you still get to fight... ;-0
                Date

                <wink>After this mess, a new idea will have to be explored...AAA -
                Armor Archive Anon - a twelve step program for removing undesirable
                personas and materials... </wink>
                Shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the recycle center </nested wink>
              • ELAINE KOOGLER
                To be honest, I seriously doubt that they will get their way. It s been tried before, with a notable lack of success (note that we re still here!!!). I don t
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
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                  To be honest, I seriously doubt that they will get their way. It's
                  been tried before, with a notable lack of success (note that we're
                  still here!!!). I don't know who these people are, but I can tell you
                  that getting rid of all non-European personas would involve kicking out
                  several Dukes, most notably Duke Cariadoc of the Bow...one of the early
                  main forces in the SCA (first King of the East at a Pennsic...actually,
                  as King of the Middle, declared war on himself!!...or was it the other
                  way 'round.....)

                  So no, it won't happen. The SCA would lose 'way too much to even try
                  this...as I said above, several Dukes, the Dark Horde, Moritu Horde,
                  Silver Horde and several notable Japanese clans, not to mention all of
                  those ME folks!

                  Kiri



                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Aimee <rjb@...>" <rjb@...>
                  Date: Monday, March 3, 2003 0:01 am
                  Subject: [SCA-JML] Japanese personas..things on AA are getting snippy...

                  > <span><p><span><p>
                  >
                  >
                  > <tt>
                  > Has anyone seen the armour archive plastic threads? It seems that
                  >
                  > there are a fair number of people who just wish us non european
                  >
                  > personas would just go away, or would like to chuck us out
                  > themselves,
                  >
                  > going so far as to refuse to fight anyone whose persona they don't
                  >
                  > approve of.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > So if these people were ever to get their way, and we were no
                  > longer
                  >
                  > allowed to play Japanese, or anything else non european for that
                  >
                  > matter, would you stay in the SCA and knuckle under with a
                  > european
                  >
                  > persona, or would you leave the group?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I would leave, myself. If continuing to play meant that I would be
                  >
                  > forced to adapt a persona that means nothing to me, and on top of
                  >
                  > that, I now had to go out and get all new garb, that I was not
                  > even
                  >
                  > really interested in, I would say to hell with it and leave.
                  >
                  > How about you?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > </tt>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • Solveig
                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Living history demonstrations and encampments are a better choice than re-enactments. You tend to have to have a LOT of
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
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                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig! Living history demonstrations and encampments are
                    a better choice than re-enactments. You tend to have to have a LOT of people
                    to do re-enactments of anything particularly well known and everyone has to
                    stick to a pretty rigid script.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar
                    --

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                    | the trash by my email filters. |
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