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Re: [SCA-JML] Seperate questions about armour

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  • Ash Smith
    After actually cutting and working with some of my kozane today, I am a little concerned that I will not be able to readily feel shots through my armor.
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 2, 2003
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      After actually cutting and working with some of my kozane today, I am a
      little concerned that I will not be able to readily feel shots through my
      armor.

      Currently I wear minimal armor, plus a chest and back plate... chest is a
      single layer of black barrel (one piece), and the back is leather squares
      "sewn" together beside one an other (no overlap) then it has a thin packing
      quilt taped inside.
      (Then covered by a tabard so that it doesn't look so horrible)

      But my new armor , with the kozane overlap is going to be over 1/2" thick!
      (1/4" ABS overlapped + thickness from lacing).

      Anyway, I currently tell a good/light shot by feeling the force and sting
      through my armor (or feeling it where I have no armor :P ), and am worried
      that I won't properly call others' shots with what looks like it is going to
      be some massive armor hehe.

      Any thoughts on this matter?

      Thanks,
      Ash

      PS: Thanks for the info on Brass

      > I recall it was really light--strips that you could pick up in the
      > hardware store and tin snips could cut and shape for me. The brass has
      > proven fairly dent resistant where it is riveted on, but the 18 ga steel
      > has not. Then again, I am in Atlantia and have had some pretty hard blows
      > thrown against the thing (NOTE: even though it dented, I only felt a bit
      > of movement and herd the 'clang' to know it was good--I didn't have to
      > judge any but a few of the tip shots on the edges of the arm and leg
      > armour to tell that anything was 'good')

      > -Ii, who has too many projects right now.
    • Ash Smith
      Excellent! Congrats. Ash
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 2, 2003
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        Excellent! Congrats.

        Ash

        > > The current suit requires massive reworking, however. I hope to be
        > > fighting again, soon, but I then am thinking about doing a
        > completely new
        > > dou, just because the one I have right now is not good for regular
        > SCA
        > > Combat armour.
        > >
        > > -Ii, who has too many projects right now.
        >
        > On a related note (and because he would never mention it himself) I
        > am pleased to announce that Ii-dono was awarded the Silver Nautilus
        > by His Atlantian Majesty Cuan yesterday at our Kingdom Arts and
        > Sciences Festival.
        >
        > The Silver Nautilus is an award given for a single "surpassingly
        > excellent" achievement or project in the Arts and Sciences. Ii-
        > dono's particular achievement that caught His Majesty's eye was his
        > Persona Pentathlon entry, which included several examples of Momoyama
        > clothing (dobuku, kataginu kamishimo, and suo no kamishimo), a
        > calligraphy sample, but in particular the above-mentioned armour, an
        > example of ryo-awase nimaido. The entire assemblage was
        > declared "most fitting of a Japanese warrior" by His Majesty.
        >
        > Ei! Ei! Oooooh!
        >
        > -Aine

        >
      • Donald J. Luby
        ... First off, regardless of whether it s a true issue or not, it s always good to see such concern.` ... I used to wear yoroi of one piece of barrel plastic
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 2, 2003
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          On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 12:12 AM, Ash Smith wrote:

          > After actually cutting and working with some of my kozane today, I am
          > a little concerned that I will not be able to readily feel shots
          > through my armor.

          First off, regardless of whether it's a true issue or not, it's always
          good to see such concern.`

          > Currently I wear minimal armor, plus a chest and back plate... chest
          > is a single layer of black barrel (one piece), and the back is leather
          > squares "sewn" together beside one an other (no overlap) then it has a
          > thin packing quilt taped inside.
          > (Then covered by a tabard so that it doesn't look so horrible)
          >
          > But my new armor , with the kozane overlap is going to be over 1/2"
          > thick! (1/4" ABS overlapped + thickness from lacing).

          I used to wear yoroi of one piece of barrel plastic for each major
          plate (breast, back, sides) with some kusizuri hanging off, and
          large-ish sode - not too ugly, very functional. I switched (at least
          for events) to 3/8" ABS about 6 months ago, with double thickness where
          the banding overlaps (and doubly so where the two side plates overlap),
          with lots more lacing. While it's a bit thicker, the change has never
          presented me with that much of an issue.

          > Anyway, I currently tell a good/light shot by feeling the force and
          > sting through my armor (or feeling it where I have no armor :P ), and
          > am worried that I won't properly call others' shots with what looks
          > like it is going to be some massive armor hehe.

          I usually take any body shots that hit clean and square, and appeared
          to have been thrown with reasonable force and technique, so the only
          shots that I don't take either glance off, don't really reach me (usu.
          because one or both of us are moving) or are just thrown badly with no
          force behind them.

          > Any thoughts on this matter?

          At your first few practices (and even events) in your new armor, tell
          your opponents "I've just switched style and protectiveness of armor;
          if you think I'm not taking shots like I should, please let me know, so
          I can gauge them better in my new harness". This will cause your
          opponents to think that you're not a rhino, and more importantly, that
          you're trying to actively not become a rhino; most people will help you
          in this as much as possible. And, with time, you'll get a feel for
          what your old calibration was, w/t your new harness.

          > Thanks,
          > Ash




          Sir Koredono

          ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          -------
          Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
          Koredono, KSCA
          djl@...
          Yama-kaminari-ryu
          Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands,
          AEthelmearc


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Donald J. Luby
          ... First off, regardless of whether it s a true issue or not, it s always good to see such concern.` ... I used to wear yoroi of one piece of barrel plastic
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 2, 2003
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            On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 12:12 AM, Ash Smith wrote:

            > After actually cutting and working with some of my kozane today, I am
            > a little concerned that I will not be able to readily feel shots
            > through my armor.

            First off, regardless of whether it's a true issue or not, it's always
            good to see such concern.`

            > Currently I wear minimal armor, plus a chest and back plate... chest
            > is a single layer of black barrel (one piece), and the back is leather
            > squares "sewn" together beside one an other (no overlap) then it has a
            > thin packing quilt taped inside.
            > (Then covered by a tabard so that it doesn't look so horrible)
            >
            > But my new armor , with the kozane overlap is going to be over 1/2"
            > thick! (1/4" ABS overlapped + thickness from lacing).

            I used to wear yoroi of one piece of barrel plastic for each major
            plate (breast, back, sides) with some kusizuri hanging off, and
            large-ish sode - not too ugly, very functional. I switched (at least
            for events) to 3/8" ABS about 6 months ago, with double thickness where
            the banding overlaps (and doubly so where the two side plates overlap),
            with lots more lacing. While it's a bit thicker, the change has never
            presented me with that much of an issue.

            > Anyway, I currently tell a good/light shot by feeling the force and
            > sting through my armor (or feeling it where I have no armor :P ), and
            > am worried that I won't properly call others' shots with what looks
            > like it is going to be some massive armor hehe.

            I usually take any body shots that hit clean and square, and appeared
            to have been thrown with reasonable force and technique, so the only
            shots that I don't take either glance off, don't really reach me (usu.
            because one or both of us are moving) or are just thrown badly with no
            force behind them.

            > Any thoughts on this matter?

            At your first few practices (and even events) in your new armor, tell
            your opponents "I've just switched style and protectiveness of armor;
            if you think I'm not taking shots like I should, please let me know, so
            I can gauge them better in my new harness". This will cause your
            opponents to think that you're not a rhino, and more importantly, that
            you're trying to actively not become a rhino; most people will help you
            in this as much as possible. And, with time, you'll get a feel for
            what your old calibration was, w/t your new harness.

            > Thanks,
            > Ash




            Sir Koredono

            ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            -------
            Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
            Koredono, KSCA
            djl@...
            Yama-kaminari-ryu
            Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands,
            AEthelmearc
          • Solveig
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Practice. It s your responsiblity to learn to reliably recognize good shots. -- Your Humble Servant Solveig
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              >Any thoughts on this matter?

              Practice. It's your responsiblity to learn to reliably recognize good shots.
              --

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
              | the trash by my email filters. |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            • Ii Saburou
              ... I call just about anything I hear. Does this mean I sometimes call things too light? Yes, and I trust my opponent s honor to tell me otherwise. Does this
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
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                On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, Ash Smith wrote:

                > Anyway, I currently tell a good/light shot by feeling the force and sting
                > through my armor (or feeling it where I have no armor :P ), and am worried
                > that I won't properly call others' shots with what looks like it is going to
                > be some massive armor hehe.
                >
                > Any thoughts on this matter?

                I call just about anything I hear. Does this mean I sometimes call things
                too light? Yes, and I trust my opponent's honor to tell me otherwise.
                Does this mean I sometimes don't hear or feel things--rarely, and I trust
                my opponent's honor to forgive such lapses.

                I have only once had a time where an opponent mentioned that I did not
                seem notice a good blow. I was stepping forward, hitting my opponent, hit
                his shield and was bounced off at the same time he hit me. The
                combination of noise and commotion was too much and his blow felt, to me,
                as though I had run into him or his shield, not his sword (and he was so
                quick, I thought his sword was elsewhere when it landed).

                Personally, I am of the mind that one should strive not to be hit at all,
                and so calling the lighter shots will force me to acquire more skill. I
                may be off in this thinking, but that's how I feel.

                Furthermore, I don't think pain should be a gauge. A good blow will give
                you momentum, and you should 'feel' it land, just not be hurt by it. That
                is, after all, the nature of armour.

                -Ii
              • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie <ka
                ... through my armor (or feeling it where I have no armor :P ), and am worried that I won t properly call others shots with what looks like it is going to be
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
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                  >Anyway, I currently tell a good/light shot by feeling the force and sting
                  through my armor (or feeling it where I have no armor :P ), and am worried
                  that I won't properly call others' shots with what looks like it is
                  going to
                  be some massive armor hehe.

                  This is where your skill in combat will improve, because you will
                  start seeing the enemy's weapon path subconciously, and it will figure
                  in to the equation of "was that a good shot?" If the shot came in
                  clean, and you did nothing to defend against it...that thud was
                  probably good. Err on the side of 'giving' the opponent the shot, till
                  you feel comfortable calling the shots you feel, or hear.
                  Your awareness of where you were and where the opponent was during a
                  shot will lead to a higher level of combat. After that, you will not
                  be hit as often (unless you enjoy being hit...) and the problem is
                  self rectifying.
                  Many of us fight in heavy steel harnesses and suffer from the same
                  "problem" , though I can't say I have a half inch of combined
                  thickness of armor anywhere except the padding in my kabuto and menpo.

                  Date Yukiie
                  http://www.kabutographics.com
                  kabuto@...
                  Shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the grave
                • ELAINE KOOGLER
                  Congratulations, Ii-dono! I m so very proud of you. This is certainly a well-deserved honor. I m also quite certain that Effingham is very proud as well!
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
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                    Congratulations, Ii-dono! I'm so very proud of you. This is certainly
                    a well-deserved honor. I'm also quite certain that Effingham is very
                    proud as well!

                    Kiri



                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "daviem01 <ellen.m.davis@...>" <ellen.m.davis@...>
                    Date: Sunday, March 2, 2003 10:04 pm
                    Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Seperate questions about armour

                    > <span><p><span><p>
                    >
                    >
                    > <tt>
                    > > The current suit requires massive reworking, however. I hope
                    > to be
                    >
                    > > fighting again, soon, but I then am thinking about doing a
                    >
                    > completely new
                    >
                    > > dou, just because the one I have right now is not good for
                    > regular
                    >
                    > SCA
                    >
                    > > Combat armour.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > -Ii, who has too many projects right now.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On a related note (and because he would never mention it himself)
                    > I
                    >
                    > am pleased to announce that Ii-dono was awarded the Silver
                    > Nautilus
                    >
                    > by His Atlantian Majesty Cuan yesterday at our Kingdom Arts and
                    >
                    > Sciences Festival.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The Silver Nautilus is an award given for a single
                    > "surpassingly
                    >
                    > excellent" achievement or project in the Arts and Sciences.
                    > Ii-
                    >
                    > dono's particular achievement that caught His Majesty's eye was
                    > his
                    >
                    > Persona Pentathlon entry, which included several examples of
                    > Momoyama
                    >
                    > clothing (dobuku, kataginu kamishimo, and suo no kamishimo), a
                    >
                    > calligraphy sample, but in particular the above-mentioned armour,
                    > an
                    >
                    > example of ryo-awase nimaido. The entire assemblage was
                    >
                    > declared "most fitting of a Japanese warrior" by His
                    > Majesty.
                    >
                    >
                    > Ei! Ei! Oooooh!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -Aine
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > </tt>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
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                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                    ... General comment: Holy crap! That s .... um..... thick. I wouldn t use anything more than 3/16 for kozane, and part of me
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 4, 2003
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                      Ash Smith wrote:

                      >
                      > But my new armor , with the kozane overlap is going to be over 1/2" thick!
                      > (1/4" ABS overlapped + thickness from lacing).
                      >

                      General comment:

                      <Frank Barone> Holy crap! </Frank Barone>

                      That's .... um..... thick. I wouldn't use anything more than 3/16 for kozane,
                      and part of me actually prefers 1/8", given the overlap.

                      Effingham
                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                      ... Brilliant!! Very, frikkin well done!!!! And while we re congratulating folks.... Did someone tell me our own Yayoi-monster Aine is recently in receipt of
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 4, 2003
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                        "daviem01 " wrote:

                        >
                        > On a related note (and because he would never mention it himself) I
                        > am pleased to announce that Ii-dono was awarded the Silver Nautilus
                        > by His Atlantian Majesty Cuan yesterday at our Kingdom Arts and
                        > Sciences Festival.
                        >

                        Brilliant!!

                        Very, frikkin' well done!!!!


                        And while we're congratulating folks....

                        Did someone tell me our own Yayoi-monster Aine is recently in receipt of an
                        Award of Arms?

                        Well done, both of you!!!


                        Effingham
                        Doing the happy peer dance...
                      • Ash Smith
                        Well when I was ordering my plastic I ask around and the general consensus was 1/4 ... perhaps I wasn t clear that I was going to be making kozane hehe. But
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 4, 2003
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                          Well when I was ordering my plastic I ask around and the general consensus
                          was 1/4" ... perhaps I wasn't clear that I was going to be making kozane
                          hehe.

                          But it's too late now, it's already paid for and partially cut... perhaps I
                          should stop while I don't have much of the kozane cut, and do Kiritsuke
                          Zane?

                          Would actually save me some plastic too... and instead of putting the strips
                          of leather/etc, with the plastic I could actually heat and bend it up in
                          those portions to zig-zag and (hopefully) do a bit better illusion.

                          Ash


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                          To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 7:50 AM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Seperate questions about armour


                          > General comment:
                          >
                          > <Frank Barone> Holy crap! </Frank Barone>
                          >
                          > That's .... um..... thick. I wouldn't use anything more than 3/16 for
                          kozane,
                          > and part of me actually prefers 1/8", given the overlap.
                          >
                          > Effingham
                          >
                        • Anthony J. Bryant
                          ... That would be a difference. ... That s what I d use plastic of those dimensions for, yes... assuming it s flexible enough that it wouldn t shatter.
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 5, 2003
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                            Ash Smith wrote:

                            > Well when I was ordering my plastic I ask around and the general consensus
                            > was 1/4" ... perhaps I wasn't clear that I was going to be making kozane
                            > hehe.
                            >

                            That would be a difference. <G>

                            >
                            > But it's too late now, it's already paid for and partially cut... perhaps I
                            > should stop while I don't have much of the kozane cut, and do Kiritsuke
                            > Zane?
                            >

                            That's what I'd use plastic of those dimensions for, yes... assuming it's
                            flexible enough that it wouldn't shatter. Remember that cutting down the ribs
                            for kiritsuke-zane would weaken the plastic, and if your plastic is the brittle
                            kind, it could shatter on you and ruin all that effort. If you can cut a lame
                            section and waffle it around a bit without it snapping, it should be safe for
                            kiritsuke-zane.



                            Effingham
                          • jim e grunst
                            On Tue, 04 Mar 2003 14:27:57 -0500 Ash Smith ... The larger the piece, and the more curve to the piece, and also the more holes you have,
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 5, 2003
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                              On Tue, 04 Mar 2003 14:27:57 -0500 Ash Smith <kobushi@...>
                              writes:
                              > Well when I was ordering my plastic I ask around and the general
                              > consensus
                              > was 1/4" ... perhaps I wasn't clear that I was going to be making
                              > kozane
                              > hehe.
                              >

                              The larger the piece, and the more curve to the piece, and also the more
                              holes you have, the more likely you'll have broken pieces.
                              I'd go thicker.
                              Also, you are using ABS rather than Kydex?
                              ABS breaks more readily than Kydex, if I'm not mistaken.
                              Have you considered ALUMINUM?

                              Tochiro

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                            • Anthony J. Bryant
                              ... For something phenomenally useful like this, $200 is peanuts!! I d like to get to where the kozane could have a per-unit cost of about 25 cents or less.
                              Message 14 of 20 , Mar 11, 2003
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                                "Donald J. Luby" wrote:

                                >
                                > > I'm currently trying to find someone who can produce a punch that would
                                > > allow for the mass-production of kozane -- like the folks at Noble
                                > > Plastic
                                > > used to make their scales.
                                > >
                                > > If I can do that, I think we could do a lot by having people actually
                                > > have
                                > > access to good, functional kozane.
                                >
                                > That would be excellent! Please keep us informed as to your success.
                                > We thought we might have something for a while (one of the knights in
                                > the area had a contact at an injection-molding place, and would do hire
                                > work), but I think it feel through because of the initial costs
                                > involved (I think making the dies involved ran in the $200 range).
                                > Maybe when I see him next week, I'll ask - it may still be a
                                > possibility, and economically feasible if we have enough interest.
                                >

                                For something phenomenally useful like this, $200 is peanuts!! I'd like to
                                get to where the kozane could have a per-unit cost of about 25 cents or
                                less.

                                Effingham
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