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Japanese personas..things on AA are getting snippy...

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  • Aimee <rjb@ns.sympatico.ca>
    Has anyone seen the armour archive plastic threads? It seems that there are a fair number of people who just wish us non european personas would just go away,
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 2, 2003
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      Has anyone seen the armour archive plastic threads? It seems that
      there are a fair number of people who just wish us non european
      personas would just go away, or would like to chuck us out themselves,
      going so far as to refuse to fight anyone whose persona they don't
      approve of.

      So if these people were ever to get their way, and we were no longer
      allowed to play Japanese, or anything else non european for that
      matter, would you stay in the SCA and knuckle under with a european
      persona, or would you leave the group?

      I would leave, myself. If continuing to play meant that I would be
      forced to adapt a persona that means nothing to me, and on top of
      that, I now had to go out and get all new garb, that I was not even
      really interested in, I would say to hell with it and leave.
      How about you?
    • Ash Smith
      I would stay... but I would likely completely abandon all attempts to be period, or have an actual persona . I would just become a stick jock and continue to
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 2, 2003
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        I would stay... but I would likely completely abandon all attempts to be
        period, or have an actual "persona".
        I would just become a stick jock and continue to fight with my
        nagamaki(ish)... I'd just call it a recassa (sp?) great sword, my two-handed
        sword (renamed a scimitar instead of tachi), and etc.

        And get some REALLY UGLY but practical armor. ( It seems those folks tend to
        be more tolerant of nasty non-period armor so long as you pretend to be
        acting european ;P, rather than tolerating period, well done japanese. )

        What can I say, I love the fighting ^_^.

        Ash

        > Has anyone seen the armour archive plastic threads? It seems that
        > there are a fair number of people who just wish us non european
        > personas would just go away, or would like to chuck us out themselves,
        > going so far as to refuse to fight anyone whose persona they don't
        > approve of.
        >
        > So if these people were ever to get their way, and we were no longer
        > allowed to play Japanese, or anything else non european for that
        > matter, would you stay in the SCA and knuckle under with a european
        > persona, or would you leave the group?
        >
        > I would leave, myself. If continuing to play meant that I would be
        > forced to adapt a persona that means nothing to me, and on top of
        > that, I now had to go out and get all new garb, that I was not even
        > really interested in, I would say to hell with it and leave.
        > How about you?
      • Donald J. Luby
        On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 12:01 AM, Aimee ... I don t read AA, but I do read and post on the Known World Chivalry dlist, and while
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 2, 2003
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          On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 12:01 AM, Aimee <rjb@...>
          wrote:

          > Has anyone seen the armour archive plastic threads? It seems that
          > there are a fair number of people who just wish us non european
          > personas would just go away, or would like to chuck us out themselves,
          > going so far as to refuse to fight anyone whose persona they don't
          > approve of.

          I don't read AA, but I do read and post on the Known World Chivalry
          dlist, and while some of them disapprove of anything non-Western
          European in the middle part of period (1300 - 1450, approx), or even
          non-mainsteam Euros in general, none have gone so far as to suggest not
          fighting anyone they "don't approve of".
          A bad answer might be to not worry about it, and if they chose to not
          fight you in a tourney, well, then they'd have to forfeit the fight and
          lose; and while I think there are some people whose principles (as
          misguided as they might be) would drive them that far, I think the vast
          majority of folks would rather test their mettle against any opponent
          that acted in a chivalrous fashion, or were too driven by their desire
          to win, to just forfeit a fight on such grounds.
          Without knowing who these folks are, I think they're more than likely
          a bunch of extremist hotheads, without any strong basis of support, and
          thus can be largely safely ignored.

          > So if these people were ever to get their way, and we were no longer
          > allowed to play Japanese, or anything else non european for that
          > matter, would you stay in the SCA and knuckle under with a european
          > persona, or would you leave the group?

          In that hypothetical situation, I don't know what I'd do. Since
          there are enough high-powered non-Euro's in most (every?) kingdom(s), I
          find it highly unlikely that such a thing would ever come to pass. For
          starters, they would have to re-write the corporate by-laws, which I'm
          fairly certain the Board wouldn't allow without a really good reason,
          and on top of that major hurdle, they would have to overcome 35+ years
          of tradition everywhere, which could be even more difficult.

          > I would leave, myself. If continuing to play meant that I would be
          > forced to adapt a persona that means nothing to me, and on top of
          > that, I now had to go out and get all new garb, that I was not even
          > really interested in, I would say to hell with it and leave. How
          > about you?

          To be honest, a large majority of the reason I'm in the SCA (these
          days) is because of the friends I've made over the years in the SCA; i
          could continue to do Japanese research, and fight in a Japanese style,
          with my friends, if the SCA disappeared tomorrow. If seeing my other
          friends on a regular basis (esp. the ones who live far away from me)
          meant putting on the occasional funny Euro clothes, I might do it,



          Sir Koredono

          ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          -------
          Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
          Koredono, KSCA
          djl@...
          Yama-kaminari-ryu
          Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands,
          AEthelmearc
        • Paul Smith
          I m too new to this to really answer, but I can say I wish those guys would get a grip. The organization is knee deep in Asian personas already so it s a
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 2, 2003
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            I'm too new to this to really answer, but I can say I
            wish those guys would get a grip. The organization is
            knee deep in Asian personas already so it's a little
            too late for them to just hope they all go away.

            I think the best way to fight the attitude is through
            things like Ii's most excellent award. It's hard to
            really complain about excellence and dedication to
            period. And they're not going to win any chivalry
            awards refusing to fight a guy in great armour because
            he happens to be a Japanese persona. If nothing else
            it smacks of racisim and I doubt it would be tolerated
            for very long.

            Paul

            BTW, no, I'm not calling those guys racists. I'm just
            saying it looks bad when someone wont play with
            someone because he's 'Japanese'. I think a lot of
            people would be uncomfortable by a blatant refusal to
            take the field for that reason alone.

            --- "Aimee <rjb@...>"
            <rjb@...> wrote:

            ---------------------------------
            Has anyone seen the armour archive plastic threads? It
            seems that
            there are a fair number of people who just wish us non
            european
            personas would just go away, or would like to chuck us
            out themselves,
            going so far as to refuse to fight anyone whose
            persona they don't
            approve of.

            So if these people were ever to get their way, and we
            were no longer
            allowed to play Japanese, or anything else non
            european for that
            matter, would you stay in the SCA and knuckle under
            with a european
            persona, or would you leave the group?

            I would leave, myself. If continuing to play meant
            that I would be
            forced to adapt a persona that means nothing to me,
            and on top of
            that, I now had to go out and get all new garb, that I
            was not even
            really interested in, I would say to hell with it and
            leave.
            How about you?



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          • Donald J. Luby
            ... Exactly - even if they managed to get rid of Japanese, well, let s see: the Mongols carried their invasion as far west as Poland until Genghis; and the
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 2, 2003
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              On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 02:11 AM, Paul Smith wrote:

              > I'm too new to this to really answer, but I can say I wish those guys
              > would get a grip.  The organization is knee deep in Asian personas
              > already so it's a little too late for them to just hope they all go
              > away. 

              Exactly - even if they managed to 'get rid of' Japanese, well, let's
              see: the Mongols carried their invasion as far west as Poland until
              Genghis; and the Turks (after they defeated the native rulers in
              Persia, Assyria, and Asia Minor), who were also a Central Asiatic
              people conquered what was left of Byzantium, and then pressed onwards
              into Europe to the gates of Vienna. So there's lots of historic
              precendent for not only lots of contact between Asian peoples and
              Europe, heck, Asians almost conquered Europe, twice!
              Then there are the major Asian households in the SCA (the ones I'm
              familiar with are the various 'flavors' of the Horde, the Rozakii, and,
              of course Yama Kaminari :); I'm sure there are more that I'm unfamiliar
              with), all of whom have significant influence in their home kingdoms.

              > I think the best way to fight the attitude is through things like Ii's
              > most excellent award.  It's hard to really complain about excellence
              > and dedication to period.

              Exactly. Not to mention the various other arts awards that various
              Japanese personae have received of late, all of which seem to make big
              splashes wherever they are.

              >   And they're not going to win any chivalry awards refusing to fight a
              > guy in great armour because he happens to be a Japanese persona.

              They're also not going to win any tourneys, if there are (enough)
              Japanese personae fighting - it's a lose-lose proposition for them,
              unless they happen to disallow Japanese (and other Asian personae) to
              even compete; which, so long as the armor is safe and legal, I'm pretty
              sure they will not be able to do, or at least without having major
              kingdom and society marshals come down hard on them. And, given the
              really awful armor I see out there, which is not Japanese, I really
              doubt any kingdom is going to be able to legislate against
              Japanese-style armor without having fully eradicated the fantasy or
              just plain awful armor first and completely.

              > If nothing else it smacks of racisim and I doubt it would be tolerated
              > for very long.

              I'm not sure of racism is the right term - perhaps 'misguided elitism'
              or 'unwarranted eurocentrism' is more accurate. Or maybe just plain
              ignorance.

              > Paul
              >
              > BTW, no, I'm not calling those guys racists.  I'm just saying it looks
              > bad when someone wont play with someone because he's 'Japanese'.  I
              > think a lot of people would be uncomfortable by a blatant refusal to
              > take the field for that reason alone.
              >


              Sir Koredono

              ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              -------
              Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
              Koredono, KSCA
              djl@...
              Yama-kaminari-ryu
              Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands,
              AEthelmearc



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Solveig
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Nobody is going to succeed in forcing non-Europeans out of the Society anytime within the next five to ten years. What
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig! Nobody is going to succeed in forcing
                non-Europeans out of the Society anytime within the next five
                to ten years. What will continue to happen is that people will
                appoint themselves as ethno-purity police and intimidate more
                vulnurable individuals. Even some of the self-appointed guardians
                will make "exceptions" for people that they personally like.
                Hypocritical behavior? You bet.
                --

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

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                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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              • Solveig
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Actually, they are trying. A number of them got onto the Corpora rewrite committee and wrote Western and Eruopean
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
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                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  >I'm too new to this to really answer, but I can say I
                  >wish those guys would get a grip. The organization is
                  >knee deep in Asian personas already so it's a little
                  >too late for them to just hope they all go away.

                  Actually, they are trying. A number of them got onto the Corpora rewrite
                  committee and wrote "Western" and "Eruopean" into many places where they
                  weren't. However, this sort of restrictive language has limited impact
                  when there are important and in some cases legendary figures in the
                  Society who research and recreate non-European stuff. I really doubt that
                  you will see many people swatting Duke Carriadoc of the Bow for doing
                  North African stuff. What you will see people do is swat more vulnerable
                  people. For example. Kingdoms with non-open crown lists may well see
                  non Western-Eruopeans having a hard time getting into crown tournament.
                  Isn't chivalry great?
                  --

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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                • Ii Saburou
                  ... I have noticed, however, that it seems to be a very vocal minority, encouraged by the forum s creator, that feel this way. This is indicative of the type
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
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                    On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, Aimee <rjb@...> wrote:

                    > Has anyone seen the armour archive plastic threads? It seems that
                    > there are a fair number of people who just wish us non european
                    > personas would just go away, or would like to chuck us out themselves,
                    > going so far as to refuse to fight anyone whose persona they don't
                    > approve of.

                    I have noticed, however, that it seems to be a very vocal minority,
                    encouraged by the forum's creator, that feel this way. This is indicative
                    of the type of attitude that has caused at least one other friend of mine
                    (not a Japanese persona, btw) to leave that forum.

                    > So if these people were ever to get their way, and we were no longer
                    > allowed to play Japanese, or anything else non european for that
                    > matter, would you stay in the SCA and knuckle under with a european
                    > persona, or would you leave the group?

                    Well, I have a European persona, so it isn't that hard for me. But I have
                    MPD (Multiple Persona Disorder), so I'm not typical.

                    On the other hand, I really would like to start a subgroup out here in the
                    DC area that is just focused on Asian history. I don't expect it to be
                    anything big, and I figure it will be something similar to a household as
                    a political organization in the SCA, but I want to also get away from the
                    SCA in certain areas. I also figure that if the SCA ever decides to kick
                    out non-European personae, then I'll have a place to go and do my hobby.

                    But it won't be on the scale of the SCA--Asian history just isn't popular
                    enough. I would probably try for a smaller, more concentrated group that
                    gave demos and attempted to do actual re-enactments. Then again, with the
                    Cherry Blossom Festival and the like, I think there is more of a venue for
                    that here than most other places.

                    -Ii
                  • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie <ka
                    ... -I personally would stand in the middle of them with my armor on and my stick in hand. They would have to stay in hold untill you left the eric or field.
                    Message 9 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
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                      >...would you stay in the SCA and knuckle under with a european
                      > persona, or would you leave the group?

                      -I personally would stand in the middle of them with my armor on and
                      my stick in hand. They would have to stay in hold untill you left the
                      eric or field. If they try to forcibly eject you, you get to
                      fight...and if they don't, you still get to fight... ;-0
                      Date

                      <wink>After this mess, a new idea will have to be explored...AAA -
                      Armor Archive Anon - a twelve step program for removing undesirable
                      personas and materials... </wink>
                      Shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the recycle center </nested wink>
                    • ELAINE KOOGLER
                      To be honest, I seriously doubt that they will get their way. It s been tried before, with a notable lack of success (note that we re still here!!!). I don t
                      Message 10 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
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                        To be honest, I seriously doubt that they will get their way. It's
                        been tried before, with a notable lack of success (note that we're
                        still here!!!). I don't know who these people are, but I can tell you
                        that getting rid of all non-European personas would involve kicking out
                        several Dukes, most notably Duke Cariadoc of the Bow...one of the early
                        main forces in the SCA (first King of the East at a Pennsic...actually,
                        as King of the Middle, declared war on himself!!...or was it the other
                        way 'round.....)

                        So no, it won't happen. The SCA would lose 'way too much to even try
                        this...as I said above, several Dukes, the Dark Horde, Moritu Horde,
                        Silver Horde and several notable Japanese clans, not to mention all of
                        those ME folks!

                        Kiri



                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Aimee <rjb@...>" <rjb@...>
                        Date: Monday, March 3, 2003 0:01 am
                        Subject: [SCA-JML] Japanese personas..things on AA are getting snippy...

                        > <span><p><span><p>
                        >
                        >
                        > <tt>
                        > Has anyone seen the armour archive plastic threads? It seems that
                        >
                        > there are a fair number of people who just wish us non european
                        >
                        > personas would just go away, or would like to chuck us out
                        > themselves,
                        >
                        > going so far as to refuse to fight anyone whose persona they don't
                        >
                        > approve of.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > So if these people were ever to get their way, and we were no
                        > longer
                        >
                        > allowed to play Japanese, or anything else non european for that
                        >
                        > matter, would you stay in the SCA and knuckle under with a
                        > european
                        >
                        > persona, or would you leave the group?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I would leave, myself. If continuing to play meant that I would be
                        >
                        > forced to adapt a persona that means nothing to me, and on top of
                        >
                        > that, I now had to go out and get all new garb, that I was not
                        > even
                        >
                        > really interested in, I would say to hell with it and leave.
                        >
                        > How about you?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > </tt>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • Solveig
                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Living history demonstrations and encampments are a better choice than re-enactments. You tend to have to have a LOT of
                        Message 11 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
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                          Noble Cousin!

                          Greetings from Solveig! Living history demonstrations and encampments are
                          a better choice than re-enactments. You tend to have to have a LOT of people
                          to do re-enactments of anything particularly well known and everyone has to
                          stick to a pretty rigid script.

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar
                          --

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar

                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                          | the trash by my email filters. |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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