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Re: [SCA-JML] Seperate questions about armour

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  • Ii Saburou
    ... I recall it was really light--strips that you could pick up in the hardware store and tin snips could cut and shape for me. The brass has proven fairly
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 2, 2003
      On Fri, 28 Feb 2003, Ash Smith wrote:

      > What type of Brass, and what size did you use? How "dent resistant" has it
      > been for you?
      > Thanks,
      > Ash

      I recall it was really light--strips that you could pick up in the
      hardware store and tin snips could cut and shape for me. The brass has
      proven fairly dent resistant where it is riveted on, but the 18 ga steel
      has not. Then again, I am in Atlantia and have had some pretty hard blows
      thrown against the thing (NOTE: even though it dented, I only felt a bit
      of movement and herd the 'clang' to know it was good--I didn't have to
      judge any but a few of the tip shots on the edges of the arm and leg
      armour to tell that anything was 'good')

      The current suit requires massive reworking, however. I hope to be
      fighting again, soon, but I then am thinking about doing a completely new
      dou, just because the one I have right now is not good for regular SCA
      Combat armour.

      I'm really starting to think, especially with the new rule that a Japanese
      persona should probably consider:

      First armour: Do it out of heavy stainless steel. Use large, solid
      plates and hold them together with STRONG hinges, or else use a converted
      European breastplate. Sode and kusazuri should be metal, with minimum
      lacing (sugake odoshi). Make fabric kote (get a nice, small print cotton
      over some padded material) and haidate over yoroi hitatare and hakama to
      hide any necessary bits (eg cowters). Very simple neck protection.

      Second armour: Do whatever you want, and try to make it look as best you
      can like an actual suit of armour.

      The reason I'm thinking this way is because the first armour needs to be
      something that can take a LOT of punishment, but should still look good on
      the field. The second armour is something that you want to make to look
      good in, and will probably only bring out once in a while. Third and
      fourth armourers and you are probably ready to start your own shop ;)

      If anyone has a copy of "Samurai: An Illustrated History" by Mitsuo Kure,
      I think that what that samurai has on (and is wearing improperly, if you
      look at the sode) would probably be better for SCA purposes than what most
      of us WANT to wear.

      -Ii, who has too many projects right now.
    • daviem01 <ellen.m.davis@att.net>
      ... completely new ... SCA ... On a related note (and because he would never mention it himself) I am pleased to announce that Ii-dono was awarded the Silver
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 2, 2003
        > The current suit requires massive reworking, however. I hope to be
        > fighting again, soon, but I then am thinking about doing a
        completely new
        > dou, just because the one I have right now is not good for regular
        SCA
        > Combat armour.
        >
        > -Ii, who has too many projects right now.

        On a related note (and because he would never mention it himself) I
        am pleased to announce that Ii-dono was awarded the Silver Nautilus
        by His Atlantian Majesty Cuan yesterday at our Kingdom Arts and
        Sciences Festival.

        The Silver Nautilus is an award given for a single "surpassingly
        excellent" achievement or project in the Arts and Sciences. Ii-
        dono's particular achievement that caught His Majesty's eye was his
        Persona Pentathlon entry, which included several examples of Momoyama
        clothing (dobuku, kataginu kamishimo, and suo no kamishimo), a
        calligraphy sample, but in particular the above-mentioned armour, an
        example of ryo-awase nimaido. The entire assemblage was
        declared "most fitting of a Japanese warrior" by His Majesty.

        Ei! Ei! Oooooh!

        -Aine
      • Ash Smith
        After actually cutting and working with some of my kozane today, I am a little concerned that I will not be able to readily feel shots through my armor.
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 2, 2003
          After actually cutting and working with some of my kozane today, I am a
          little concerned that I will not be able to readily feel shots through my
          armor.

          Currently I wear minimal armor, plus a chest and back plate... chest is a
          single layer of black barrel (one piece), and the back is leather squares
          "sewn" together beside one an other (no overlap) then it has a thin packing
          quilt taped inside.
          (Then covered by a tabard so that it doesn't look so horrible)

          But my new armor , with the kozane overlap is going to be over 1/2" thick!
          (1/4" ABS overlapped + thickness from lacing).

          Anyway, I currently tell a good/light shot by feeling the force and sting
          through my armor (or feeling it where I have no armor :P ), and am worried
          that I won't properly call others' shots with what looks like it is going to
          be some massive armor hehe.

          Any thoughts on this matter?

          Thanks,
          Ash

          PS: Thanks for the info on Brass

          > I recall it was really light--strips that you could pick up in the
          > hardware store and tin snips could cut and shape for me. The brass has
          > proven fairly dent resistant where it is riveted on, but the 18 ga steel
          > has not. Then again, I am in Atlantia and have had some pretty hard blows
          > thrown against the thing (NOTE: even though it dented, I only felt a bit
          > of movement and herd the 'clang' to know it was good--I didn't have to
          > judge any but a few of the tip shots on the edges of the arm and leg
          > armour to tell that anything was 'good')

          > -Ii, who has too many projects right now.
        • Ash Smith
          Excellent! Congrats. Ash
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 2, 2003
            Excellent! Congrats.

            Ash

            > > The current suit requires massive reworking, however. I hope to be
            > > fighting again, soon, but I then am thinking about doing a
            > completely new
            > > dou, just because the one I have right now is not good for regular
            > SCA
            > > Combat armour.
            > >
            > > -Ii, who has too many projects right now.
            >
            > On a related note (and because he would never mention it himself) I
            > am pleased to announce that Ii-dono was awarded the Silver Nautilus
            > by His Atlantian Majesty Cuan yesterday at our Kingdom Arts and
            > Sciences Festival.
            >
            > The Silver Nautilus is an award given for a single "surpassingly
            > excellent" achievement or project in the Arts and Sciences. Ii-
            > dono's particular achievement that caught His Majesty's eye was his
            > Persona Pentathlon entry, which included several examples of Momoyama
            > clothing (dobuku, kataginu kamishimo, and suo no kamishimo), a
            > calligraphy sample, but in particular the above-mentioned armour, an
            > example of ryo-awase nimaido. The entire assemblage was
            > declared "most fitting of a Japanese warrior" by His Majesty.
            >
            > Ei! Ei! Oooooh!
            >
            > -Aine

            >
          • Donald J. Luby
            ... First off, regardless of whether it s a true issue or not, it s always good to see such concern.` ... I used to wear yoroi of one piece of barrel plastic
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 2, 2003
              On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 12:12 AM, Ash Smith wrote:

              > After actually cutting and working with some of my kozane today, I am
              > a little concerned that I will not be able to readily feel shots
              > through my armor.

              First off, regardless of whether it's a true issue or not, it's always
              good to see such concern.`

              > Currently I wear minimal armor, plus a chest and back plate... chest
              > is a single layer of black barrel (one piece), and the back is leather
              > squares "sewn" together beside one an other (no overlap) then it has a
              > thin packing quilt taped inside.
              > (Then covered by a tabard so that it doesn't look so horrible)
              >
              > But my new armor , with the kozane overlap is going to be over 1/2"
              > thick! (1/4" ABS overlapped + thickness from lacing).

              I used to wear yoroi of one piece of barrel plastic for each major
              plate (breast, back, sides) with some kusizuri hanging off, and
              large-ish sode - not too ugly, very functional. I switched (at least
              for events) to 3/8" ABS about 6 months ago, with double thickness where
              the banding overlaps (and doubly so where the two side plates overlap),
              with lots more lacing. While it's a bit thicker, the change has never
              presented me with that much of an issue.

              > Anyway, I currently tell a good/light shot by feeling the force and
              > sting through my armor (or feeling it where I have no armor :P ), and
              > am worried that I won't properly call others' shots with what looks
              > like it is going to be some massive armor hehe.

              I usually take any body shots that hit clean and square, and appeared
              to have been thrown with reasonable force and technique, so the only
              shots that I don't take either glance off, don't really reach me (usu.
              because one or both of us are moving) or are just thrown badly with no
              force behind them.

              > Any thoughts on this matter?

              At your first few practices (and even events) in your new armor, tell
              your opponents "I've just switched style and protectiveness of armor;
              if you think I'm not taking shots like I should, please let me know, so
              I can gauge them better in my new harness". This will cause your
              opponents to think that you're not a rhino, and more importantly, that
              you're trying to actively not become a rhino; most people will help you
              in this as much as possible. And, with time, you'll get a feel for
              what your old calibration was, w/t your new harness.

              > Thanks,
              > Ash




              Sir Koredono

              ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              -------
              Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
              Koredono, KSCA
              djl@...
              Yama-kaminari-ryu
              Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands,
              AEthelmearc


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Donald J. Luby
              ... First off, regardless of whether it s a true issue or not, it s always good to see such concern.` ... I used to wear yoroi of one piece of barrel plastic
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 2, 2003
                On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 12:12 AM, Ash Smith wrote:

                > After actually cutting and working with some of my kozane today, I am
                > a little concerned that I will not be able to readily feel shots
                > through my armor.

                First off, regardless of whether it's a true issue or not, it's always
                good to see such concern.`

                > Currently I wear minimal armor, plus a chest and back plate... chest
                > is a single layer of black barrel (one piece), and the back is leather
                > squares "sewn" together beside one an other (no overlap) then it has a
                > thin packing quilt taped inside.
                > (Then covered by a tabard so that it doesn't look so horrible)
                >
                > But my new armor , with the kozane overlap is going to be over 1/2"
                > thick! (1/4" ABS overlapped + thickness from lacing).

                I used to wear yoroi of one piece of barrel plastic for each major
                plate (breast, back, sides) with some kusizuri hanging off, and
                large-ish sode - not too ugly, very functional. I switched (at least
                for events) to 3/8" ABS about 6 months ago, with double thickness where
                the banding overlaps (and doubly so where the two side plates overlap),
                with lots more lacing. While it's a bit thicker, the change has never
                presented me with that much of an issue.

                > Anyway, I currently tell a good/light shot by feeling the force and
                > sting through my armor (or feeling it where I have no armor :P ), and
                > am worried that I won't properly call others' shots with what looks
                > like it is going to be some massive armor hehe.

                I usually take any body shots that hit clean and square, and appeared
                to have been thrown with reasonable force and technique, so the only
                shots that I don't take either glance off, don't really reach me (usu.
                because one or both of us are moving) or are just thrown badly with no
                force behind them.

                > Any thoughts on this matter?

                At your first few practices (and even events) in your new armor, tell
                your opponents "I've just switched style and protectiveness of armor;
                if you think I'm not taking shots like I should, please let me know, so
                I can gauge them better in my new harness". This will cause your
                opponents to think that you're not a rhino, and more importantly, that
                you're trying to actively not become a rhino; most people will help you
                in this as much as possible. And, with time, you'll get a feel for
                what your old calibration was, w/t your new harness.

                > Thanks,
                > Ash




                Sir Koredono

                ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                -------
                Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
                Koredono, KSCA
                djl@...
                Yama-kaminari-ryu
                Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands,
                AEthelmearc
              • Solveig
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Practice. It s your responsiblity to learn to reliably recognize good shots. -- Your Humble Servant Solveig
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  >Any thoughts on this matter?

                  Practice. It's your responsiblity to learn to reliably recognize good shots.
                  --

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                • Ii Saburou
                  ... I call just about anything I hear. Does this mean I sometimes call things too light? Yes, and I trust my opponent s honor to tell me otherwise. Does this
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
                    On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, Ash Smith wrote:

                    > Anyway, I currently tell a good/light shot by feeling the force and sting
                    > through my armor (or feeling it where I have no armor :P ), and am worried
                    > that I won't properly call others' shots with what looks like it is going to
                    > be some massive armor hehe.
                    >
                    > Any thoughts on this matter?

                    I call just about anything I hear. Does this mean I sometimes call things
                    too light? Yes, and I trust my opponent's honor to tell me otherwise.
                    Does this mean I sometimes don't hear or feel things--rarely, and I trust
                    my opponent's honor to forgive such lapses.

                    I have only once had a time where an opponent mentioned that I did not
                    seem notice a good blow. I was stepping forward, hitting my opponent, hit
                    his shield and was bounced off at the same time he hit me. The
                    combination of noise and commotion was too much and his blow felt, to me,
                    as though I had run into him or his shield, not his sword (and he was so
                    quick, I thought his sword was elsewhere when it landed).

                    Personally, I am of the mind that one should strive not to be hit at all,
                    and so calling the lighter shots will force me to acquire more skill. I
                    may be off in this thinking, but that's how I feel.

                    Furthermore, I don't think pain should be a gauge. A good blow will give
                    you momentum, and you should 'feel' it land, just not be hurt by it. That
                    is, after all, the nature of armour.

                    -Ii
                  • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie <ka
                    ... through my armor (or feeling it where I have no armor :P ), and am worried that I won t properly call others shots with what looks like it is going to be
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
                      >Anyway, I currently tell a good/light shot by feeling the force and sting
                      through my armor (or feeling it where I have no armor :P ), and am worried
                      that I won't properly call others' shots with what looks like it is
                      going to
                      be some massive armor hehe.

                      This is where your skill in combat will improve, because you will
                      start seeing the enemy's weapon path subconciously, and it will figure
                      in to the equation of "was that a good shot?" If the shot came in
                      clean, and you did nothing to defend against it...that thud was
                      probably good. Err on the side of 'giving' the opponent the shot, till
                      you feel comfortable calling the shots you feel, or hear.
                      Your awareness of where you were and where the opponent was during a
                      shot will lead to a higher level of combat. After that, you will not
                      be hit as often (unless you enjoy being hit...) and the problem is
                      self rectifying.
                      Many of us fight in heavy steel harnesses and suffer from the same
                      "problem" , though I can't say I have a half inch of combined
                      thickness of armor anywhere except the padding in my kabuto and menpo.

                      Date Yukiie
                      http://www.kabutographics.com
                      kabuto@...
                      Shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the grave
                    • ELAINE KOOGLER
                      Congratulations, Ii-dono! I m so very proud of you. This is certainly a well-deserved honor. I m also quite certain that Effingham is very proud as well!
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 3, 2003
                        Congratulations, Ii-dono! I'm so very proud of you. This is certainly
                        a well-deserved honor. I'm also quite certain that Effingham is very
                        proud as well!

                        Kiri



                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "daviem01 <ellen.m.davis@...>" <ellen.m.davis@...>
                        Date: Sunday, March 2, 2003 10:04 pm
                        Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Seperate questions about armour

                        > <span><p><span><p>
                        >
                        >
                        > <tt>
                        > > The current suit requires massive reworking, however. I hope
                        > to be
                        >
                        > > fighting again, soon, but I then am thinking about doing a
                        >
                        > completely new
                        >
                        > > dou, just because the one I have right now is not good for
                        > regular
                        >
                        > SCA
                        >
                        > > Combat armour.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > -Ii, who has too many projects right now.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On a related note (and because he would never mention it himself)
                        > I
                        >
                        > am pleased to announce that Ii-dono was awarded the Silver
                        > Nautilus
                        >
                        > by His Atlantian Majesty Cuan yesterday at our Kingdom Arts and
                        >
                        > Sciences Festival.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The Silver Nautilus is an award given for a single
                        > "surpassingly
                        >
                        > excellent" achievement or project in the Arts and Sciences.
                        > Ii-
                        >
                        > dono's particular achievement that caught His Majesty's eye was
                        > his
                        >
                        > Persona Pentathlon entry, which included several examples of
                        > Momoyama
                        >
                        > clothing (dobuku, kataginu kamishimo, and suo no kamishimo), a
                        >
                        > calligraphy sample, but in particular the above-mentioned armour,
                        > an
                        >
                        > example of ryo-awase nimaido. The entire assemblage was
                        >
                        > declared "most fitting of a Japanese warrior" by His
                        > Majesty.
                        >
                        >
                        > Ei! Ei! Oooooh!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -Aine
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > </tt>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                        ... General comment: Holy crap! That s .... um..... thick. I wouldn t use anything more than 3/16 for kozane, and part of me
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 4, 2003
                          Ash Smith wrote:

                          >
                          > But my new armor , with the kozane overlap is going to be over 1/2" thick!
                          > (1/4" ABS overlapped + thickness from lacing).
                          >

                          General comment:

                          <Frank Barone> Holy crap! </Frank Barone>

                          That's .... um..... thick. I wouldn't use anything more than 3/16 for kozane,
                          and part of me actually prefers 1/8", given the overlap.

                          Effingham
                        • Anthony J. Bryant
                          ... Brilliant!! Very, frikkin well done!!!! And while we re congratulating folks.... Did someone tell me our own Yayoi-monster Aine is recently in receipt of
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 4, 2003
                            "daviem01 " wrote:

                            >
                            > On a related note (and because he would never mention it himself) I
                            > am pleased to announce that Ii-dono was awarded the Silver Nautilus
                            > by His Atlantian Majesty Cuan yesterday at our Kingdom Arts and
                            > Sciences Festival.
                            >

                            Brilliant!!

                            Very, frikkin' well done!!!!


                            And while we're congratulating folks....

                            Did someone tell me our own Yayoi-monster Aine is recently in receipt of an
                            Award of Arms?

                            Well done, both of you!!!


                            Effingham
                            Doing the happy peer dance...
                          • Ash Smith
                            Well when I was ordering my plastic I ask around and the general consensus was 1/4 ... perhaps I wasn t clear that I was going to be making kozane hehe. But
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 4, 2003
                              Well when I was ordering my plastic I ask around and the general consensus
                              was 1/4" ... perhaps I wasn't clear that I was going to be making kozane
                              hehe.

                              But it's too late now, it's already paid for and partially cut... perhaps I
                              should stop while I don't have much of the kozane cut, and do Kiritsuke
                              Zane?

                              Would actually save me some plastic too... and instead of putting the strips
                              of leather/etc, with the plastic I could actually heat and bend it up in
                              those portions to zig-zag and (hopefully) do a bit better illusion.

                              Ash


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                              To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 7:50 AM
                              Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Seperate questions about armour


                              > General comment:
                              >
                              > <Frank Barone> Holy crap! </Frank Barone>
                              >
                              > That's .... um..... thick. I wouldn't use anything more than 3/16 for
                              kozane,
                              > and part of me actually prefers 1/8", given the overlap.
                              >
                              > Effingham
                              >
                            • Anthony J. Bryant
                              ... That would be a difference. ... That s what I d use plastic of those dimensions for, yes... assuming it s flexible enough that it wouldn t shatter.
                              Message 14 of 20 , Mar 5, 2003
                                Ash Smith wrote:

                                > Well when I was ordering my plastic I ask around and the general consensus
                                > was 1/4" ... perhaps I wasn't clear that I was going to be making kozane
                                > hehe.
                                >

                                That would be a difference. <G>

                                >
                                > But it's too late now, it's already paid for and partially cut... perhaps I
                                > should stop while I don't have much of the kozane cut, and do Kiritsuke
                                > Zane?
                                >

                                That's what I'd use plastic of those dimensions for, yes... assuming it's
                                flexible enough that it wouldn't shatter. Remember that cutting down the ribs
                                for kiritsuke-zane would weaken the plastic, and if your plastic is the brittle
                                kind, it could shatter on you and ruin all that effort. If you can cut a lame
                                section and waffle it around a bit without it snapping, it should be safe for
                                kiritsuke-zane.



                                Effingham
                              • jim e grunst
                                On Tue, 04 Mar 2003 14:27:57 -0500 Ash Smith ... The larger the piece, and the more curve to the piece, and also the more holes you have,
                                Message 15 of 20 , Mar 5, 2003
                                  On Tue, 04 Mar 2003 14:27:57 -0500 Ash Smith <kobushi@...>
                                  writes:
                                  > Well when I was ordering my plastic I ask around and the general
                                  > consensus
                                  > was 1/4" ... perhaps I wasn't clear that I was going to be making
                                  > kozane
                                  > hehe.
                                  >

                                  The larger the piece, and the more curve to the piece, and also the more
                                  holes you have, the more likely you'll have broken pieces.
                                  I'd go thicker.
                                  Also, you are using ABS rather than Kydex?
                                  ABS breaks more readily than Kydex, if I'm not mistaken.
                                  Have you considered ALUMINUM?

                                  Tochiro

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                                • Anthony J. Bryant
                                  ... For something phenomenally useful like this, $200 is peanuts!! I d like to get to where the kozane could have a per-unit cost of about 25 cents or less.
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Mar 11, 2003
                                    "Donald J. Luby" wrote:

                                    >
                                    > > I'm currently trying to find someone who can produce a punch that would
                                    > > allow for the mass-production of kozane -- like the folks at Noble
                                    > > Plastic
                                    > > used to make their scales.
                                    > >
                                    > > If I can do that, I think we could do a lot by having people actually
                                    > > have
                                    > > access to good, functional kozane.
                                    >
                                    > That would be excellent! Please keep us informed as to your success.
                                    > We thought we might have something for a while (one of the knights in
                                    > the area had a contact at an injection-molding place, and would do hire
                                    > work), but I think it feel through because of the initial costs
                                    > involved (I think making the dies involved ran in the $200 range).
                                    > Maybe when I see him next week, I'll ask - it may still be a
                                    > possibility, and economically feasible if we have enough interest.
                                    >

                                    For something phenomenally useful like this, $200 is peanuts!! I'd like to
                                    get to where the kozane could have a per-unit cost of about 25 cents or
                                    less.

                                    Effingham
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