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Re: Tenkoku - Kao

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  • Bill Fornshell <bfornshell@yahoo.com>
    Hi, I have been reading the past messages on the subject. If some of this has been covered before I am sorry. Koa, also called Shohan (written seal) or
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 18, 2003
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      Hi, I have been reading the past messages on the subject. If
      some of this has been covered before I am sorry.
      "Koa, also called Shohan (written seal) or Hangyo (seal
      shape) are written by hand rather than stamped or printed, and
      constitute a stylized type of signature. They can be written along
      with one's name, or they, in themselves, can serve as one's
      signature. The Chinese character for "ka" in the compound "kao"
      means flower, suggesting that one's signature is written in a
      form as beautiful as a flower. the word kasho (flower
      inscription), kagyo (flower shape), and kahan (flower seal) also
      refer to kao."
      This is from an article in the Chanoyu Quarterly # 76. Most of this
      issue is about the Kao. Solveig or Barbara as I know her
      should know about the Chanoyu Quarterly and may even have a
      copy. I can comment on the "Seal Scrip" lettering used for
      seals also, but I am on my way to the local library to pickup a
      book before they close. Bill

      -- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Debbie Strub <tsuruko@r...>
      wrote:
      > I was thinking along those same lines. We'll see what I can
      turn
      > up. Thanks for all your help.
      >
      > YIS,
      >
      > Tsuruko
      >
      > At 08:32 AM 1/18/2003 -0900, you wrote:
      > >On Sat, 18 Jan 2003, Debbie Strub wrote:
      > >
      > > > Now I'm really confused. It sounds like I should just
      keep
      > > > signing my name on the scrolls rather than using a seal
      because that's
      > > more
      > > > correct for us. Am I understanding you correctly?
      > > > Unfortunately I don't have a lot of information on this
      other
      > > than
      > > > a few lines here and there in various books and some
      internet research
      > > > (which is admittedly suspect).
      > >
      > >I would like to see sources on what the kao (signature) vs.
      tenkoku (seal)
      > >were used for. It sounds like an inkan is a stamp of your
      name--it's like
      > >printing your name, more than signing it. The kao does make
      sense as
      > >individuallistic--but for official functions, I can hardly see the
      local
      > >governing official signing everything like that. For that I would
      imagine
      > >they would use the tenkoku.
      > >
      > >This is all conjecture, however, based on what I know of
      people and how I
      > >have seen inkan--if not tenkoku--used.
      > >
      > >The thing we need to do is find out what sorts of extant
      documents we can
      > >find from the period in question (or research on extant
      documents) and see
      > >what we can find. Not sure what sort of studies have been
      done on that,
      > >though.
      > >
      > >-Ii
      > >
      > >
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    • Solveig
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Three more Japanese words are hanko which is generic and jitsuin or true seal and motome (if I remember that word
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 18, 2003
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        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig! Three more Japanese words are hanko which is generic
        and jitsuin or "true seal" and motome (if I remember that word correctly).
        The individually made things are not gauranteed to be unique. They are just
        not those mass produced things you see stuck in display racks like pencils.
        The legal signature seals are the ones registered at city hall. Period.

        My registration card from Musashino city hall says "Inkan Tourokusho" on it.
        The one from Mitaka city hall says the same thing. The registered seals are
        called "inkan" in government documents.

        Tensho refers to a "shotai" calligraphic style of font. This calligraphic
        font is frequently used in inkan. (ref. Daijirin.) Please forgive my lapse
        of memory. Kaisho is a very clear calligraphic form in the kaisho ->
        gyousho -> shousho sequence. There is an interesting calligraphic form which
        I thought that you were refering to. It is about twice as wide as it is
        high and is fairly old. Kanwajiten generally show the tensho version of
        popular kanji as a gloss to the text. Alas, my memory is turning to mush.

        Tensho does not use the kanji for heaven. Neither does tenkoku. Tenkoku
        uses the same ten ans tensho and refers to making seal impressions.

        Tenkai does have "heaven" in it and is one the ten Dharma worlds of Tientai
        Buddhism and its derivatives.

        There are special kanji for numbers customariliy used in legal documents.
        Ordinary numerical letters can easily be changed by adding a few brush
        strokes. The special legal numerals have extra brush strokes which make
        this sort of modification impossible.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

        --

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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      • Solveig
        Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! The traditional seal carving tool is a ctually a small chisel and not a knife. You can buy the things at calligraphy
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 18, 2003
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          Noble Cousins!

          Greetings from Solveig! The traditional seal carving tool is a ctually a
          small chisel and not a knife. You can buy the things at calligraphy supply
          stores in Japan.

          I do not recommend eating seal ink.

          > Now I'm really confused. It sounds like I should just keep
          >signing my name on the scrolls rather than using a seal because that's more
          >correct for us. Am I understanding you correctly?
          > Unfortunately I don't have a lot of information on this other than
          >a few lines here and there in various books and some internet research
          >(which is admittedly suspect).

          Yes. You should devise a kao which is more of a monogram than what you might
          think of as a signature. Imagine writing your name in a sousho style script
          with all of the letters on top of each other in one place.

          You can make a seal for the barony. That would be spiffy. I have been making
          seals for royalty, because I can not expect them to learn how to write kao,
          not because I think that it is the best approach.

          Mass writes about the use of kao in Antiquity and Anachronism in Japanese
          History.

          Gosh. That calligraphy mill charges $160.00 for a certificate.
          --

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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        • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie <ka
          Greetings to all from Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie, Those of us who make Japanese style armor are familiar with four little rivit combos called shi
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 20, 2003
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            Greetings to all from Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie,
            Those of us who make Japanese style armor are familiar with four
            little rivit combos called "shi ten byo" or sometimes "she ten no byo"
            on the hachi of a kabuto.
            I am familiar with the names of the four Deva kings from Buddhism that
            these refer to, but I do not know which one is which on the hachi, if
            indeed the assignment has been made. Perhaps Baron Edward, or one of
            the other armor-familiar might be able to help.
            In search of humble understanding...
            Date

            Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
            Shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the grave
            http://www.kabutographics.com
            kabuto@...
          • James Eckman
            ... True, but in English anybody who I ve met calls it a knive and you don t push it like a chisel. I recommend buying a 1/4 or 3/16 bits of high speed steel
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 20, 2003
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              >
              >
              > From: Solveig <nostrand@...>
              >
              >Noble Cousins!
              >
              >Greetings from Solveig! The traditional seal carving tool is a ctually a
              >small chisel and not a knife. You can buy the things at calligraphy supply
              >stores in Japan.
              >
              >
              True, but in English anybody who I've met calls it a knive and you don't
              push it like a chisel. I recommend buying a 1/4" or 3/16" bits of high
              speed steel (cheap) and wrapping them with rubber tape and the like. The
              stores want $20-30 for this little bit.

              >Gosh. That calligraphy mill charges $160.00 for a certificate.
              >
              From what I've read, calligraphy in Japan is all about certificates and
              not much to do with art. So this is not surprising. They have levels,
              formal schools, the works.

              Jim Eckman

              >
              >
            • Elaine Koogler
              I know that the Chinese used what are termed the great seal characters for their seals. These are not just squared off characters/kanji, but rather an
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 20, 2003
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                I know that the Chinese used what are termed the "great seal characters" for their seals. These are not just squared off characters/kanji, but rather an archaic form of their written language. You can see excellent examples of them if you can locate pictures of the bottoms of some of the early bronzes. I don't know, but my suspicion is that, as the Japanese frequently adopted Chinese culture wholesale, that this could be the case here as well.

                Kiri
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Debbie Strub
                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 10:04 PM
                Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Tenkoku


                I do know that it's much older than Kanji and is still used nowadays
                exclusively for seals. One site implied that it was just kanji characters
                that were rendered in a more linear or squared off fashion to make them
                easier to carve. I may have to do just that and fake it with kanji.

                YIS,

                Tsuruko

                At 03:44 PM 1/17/2003 -0900, Ii Saburou wrote:
                >Regrettably, no.
                >
                >You may want to research the seals--find the characters that you want (or
                >even characters with the elements you want), and look to see how they are
                >put together.
                >
                >I would also recommend looking into differences between modern and ancient
                >seals--I'm not sure what changes may have happened, but it might be a good
                >thing to look into.
                >
                >-Ii
                >
                >On Fri, 17 Jan 2003, Debbie Strub wrote:
                >
                > > Greetings,
                > >
                > > I'm researching Japanese seals with the intent of making one for
                > myself to
                > > "sign" Baronial scrolls. Does anyone know where I can find information on
                > > writing the Tensho script? I've done some internet research and found
                > lots
                > > of places that will make one for me but I want to make it myself. Any
                > ideas?
                > >
                > > YIS,
                > >
                > > Murakami Tsuruko
                > > Baroness of Dragon's Laire
                > > Kingdom of An Tir
                > >
                > > (and lurker on the list)
                > >
                > >
                > > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
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              • Elaine Koogler
                Again, as I m not really familiar with Japanese seals, I m not sure I m on firm ground here. However, if the Japanese seals follow the way the Chinese seals
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 20, 2003
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                  Again, as I'm not really familiar with Japanese seals, I'm not sure I'm on firm ground here. However, if the Japanese seals follow the way the Chinese seals were made, they were usually composed of great seal characters carved into soapstone, almost like a stamp. So what you get when you print it is the characters voided.

                  Kiri
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Ii Saburou
                  To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 11:14 PM
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Tenkoku


                  On Fri, 17 Jan 2003, Debbie Strub wrote:

                  > I do know that it's much older than Kanji and is still used nowadays
                  > exclusively for seals. One site implied that it was just kanji characters
                  > that were rendered in a more linear or squared off fashion to make them
                  > easier to carve. I may have to do just that and fake it with kanji.

                  Well, they are kanji (Chinese characters) so it can't really be 'older
                  than Kanji'--but I do believe they often use older versions.

                  Actually, you will notice many different ways of writing Chinese
                  characters. Seals, swords, brush calligraphy, chiseled characters--I took
                  some pictures of some of the characters I found on stones at Nagoya
                  castle, built in the 17th century, which you can find at:
                  http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/pictures/ishiji5bg.JPG (there is also a
                  '6', '7', and '8')

                  Note: These are not examples of how characters would necessarily appear on
                  seals, just an example of the type of 'signature' people created out of
                  kanji characters.

                  There does seem to be a specific style of writing used in seals. I
                  believe that they do something with modern seals, though--there are
                  generic seals that just have common names that anyone can buy, but then
                  there are personal seals which are supposed to be unique to each person,
                  and what they do to ensure it is unique, I'm not sure. I'm also not sure
                  if that was something that they worried about quite as much in period;
                  possibly it was enough that it was handmade and therefore very difficult
                  to duplicate.

                  Solveig does point out a good distinction you should make--whether you
                  want a seal that leaves the characters voided or prints them with the ink.
                  Basically, are you cutting into the seal, leaving the characters white on
                  red, or are you curring out the seal, leaving the characters red on white.

                  Let us all know how it turns out!

                  -Ii


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                • Elaine Koogler
                  there are also some nuts...can t remember the name, but it s something like takua nut or along those lines, that s being used for carving/scrimshaw/etc as it
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 20, 2003
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                    there are also some nuts...can't remember the name, but it's something like takua nut or along those lines, that's being used for carving/scrimshaw/etc as it mimics ivory, but is a vegetable rather than coming from an animal. I'm not sure how well it would work...i.e., it might be too porous to work well.

                    Kiri
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: James Eckman
                    To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 8:41 AM
                    Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Tenkoku


                    sca-jml@yahoogroups.com wrote:

                    > From: Debbie Strub <tsuruko@...>
                    >
                    > I'm researching Japanese seals with the intent of making one for myself to
                    >"sign" Baronial scrolls. Does anyone know where I can find information on
                    >writing the Tensho script? I've done some internet research and found lots
                    >of places that will make one for me but I want to make it myself. Any ideas?
                    >
                    >
                    I don't know of any places that have such a thing on-line but here's a
                    few links to get started.
                    http://pages.prodigy.net/fugu/sumi.html
                    http://www.zhongwen.com/

                    Seal carving's not that difficult other than designing the actual seal,
                    I do remember a website that showed how to do it and in San Francisco at
                    least you can buy blank seals at many stores.

                    > From: Ii Saburou <logan@...>
                    >
                    >I would also recommend looking into differences between modern and ancient
                    >seals--I'm not sure what changes may have happened, but it might be a good
                    >thing to look into.
                    >
                    >
                    There are changes, but some people continue using the more archaic
                    styles as well so there are character dictionaries for drawing them
                    available as books. Note, I've never seen that info on line so pass on
                    any links you find!

                    > From: Solveig <nostrand@...>
                    >Subject: Re: Tenkoku
                    >
                    >Noble Cousin!
                    >
                    >Greetings from Solveig! Seals are interesting. Some old seals produce
                    >impressions exhibiting mirror writing. Seals in general are eith deko
                    >or boko depending on whether it produces a positive or negative image.
                    >I believe that positive seals are prefered for attesting documents.
                    >
                    I don't know what the ancient customs for that are, but I've seen both
                    used for recent items.

                    >I have a Japanese book on how to carve inkan. Originally, I carved them
                    >out of stone and have the correct tools for doing so. However, a friend
                    >warned me of silicosis
                    >
                    I can't imagine getting silicosis if you are using a seal carving knife,
                    the pieces that are carved off are way too big. I don't recommend dremel
                    tools unless you are really good with them and then I would use a mask.

                    >and I switched to wood years ago. Seals were
                    >commonly made out of metal, ivory, wood, and stone.
                    >
                    >
                    You can cheat and use linoleum as well! Easily available at places like
                    Micheals. Please don't buy new ivory for carving. You could try Corian
                    scraps as an ivory replacement if you wanted that look.

                    Also note that most seal ink is highly toxic, don't leave it around
                    small children!

                    Jim Eckman


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                  • Solveig
                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! It sure does look like a chisel regardless of how you weild it. Besides, Japanese saws work backwards from European saws,
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 20, 2003
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                      Noble Cousin!

                      Greetings from Solveig! It sure does look like a chisel regardless
                      of how you weild it. Besides, Japanese saws work backwards from
                      European saws, but nobody has any problems calling both of them
                      saws.

                      You are talking about the thing for carving rock aren't you? Not
                      the thing for carving wood? I have both.

                      Yes. There are several ryuha for calligraphy. The one I belong to
                      publishes montly ratings in their magazine.
                      --

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar

                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                      | the trash by my email filters. |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    • BamboOni@aol.com
                      In a message dated 1/20/2003 9:46:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... They are called Tagua nuts. And if polished right you can t tell the difference between them
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 21, 2003
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                        In a message dated 1/20/2003 9:46:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                        ekoogler1@... writes:

                        > there are also some nuts...can't remember the name, but it's something like
                        > takua nut or along those lines, that's being used for carving/scrimshaw/etc
                        > as it mimics ivory, but is a vegetable rather than coming from an animal.
                        > I'm not sure how well it would work...i.e., it might be too porous to work
                        > well.
                        >

                        They are called Tagua nuts. And if polished right you can't tell the
                        difference between them and ivory(unless your an expert) :)


                        Takebayashi Genpachi

                        'Only the bamboo knows the pure breeze'
                        Zen Master Nanrei Kobori-roshi


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • James Eckman
                        ... Yes, they have they are the much older forms. Quite artistic in their own way. ... They use it nowadays, but I m clueless about historical usage. ... They
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 21, 2003
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                          >
                          >
                          > From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...>
                          >
                          >
                          >These are not just squared off characters/kanji, but rather an archaic form of their written language.
                          >
                          Yes, they have they are the much older forms. Quite artistic in their
                          own way.

                          >I don't know, but my suspicion is that, as the Japanese frequently adopted Chinese culture wholesale, that this could be the case here as well.
                          >
                          >
                          They use it nowadays, but I'm clueless about historical usage.

                          > Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 10:04 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Tenkoku
                          >
                          >
                          > I do know that it's much older than Kanji and is still used nowadays
                          > exclusively for seals. One site implied that it was just kanji characters
                          > that were rendered in a more linear or squared off fashion to make them
                          > easier to carve. I may have to do just that and fake it with kanji.
                          >
                          >
                          They were carved originally on oracle bones and the like. This is pre-paper.

                          > From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...>
                          >Subject: Re: Re: Tenkoku
                          >
                          >there are also some nuts...can't remember the name, but it's something like takua nut
                          >
                          Tagua.

                          >or along those lines, that's being used for carving/scrimshaw/etc as it mimics ivory, but is a vegetable rather than coming from an animal. I'm not sure how well it would work...i.e., it might be too porous to work well.
                          >
                          >
                          I have some, but I haven't used them for seals, they tend to be small
                          though. They aren't very porous, available from some woodworking dealers.

                          Jim Eckman
                        • Park McKellop
                          I bet the nuts are easier to chew. :-) Are they edible? Alcyoneus BamboOni@aol.com wrote:They are called Tagua nuts. And if polished right you can t tell the
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 21, 2003
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                            I bet the nuts are easier to chew. :-) Are they edible?
                            Alcyoneus
                            BamboOni@... wrote:They are called Tagua nuts. And if polished right you can't tell the
                            difference between them and ivory(unless your an expert) :)


                            Takebayashi Genpachi

                            'Only the bamboo knows the pure breeze'
                            Zen Master Nanrei Kobori-roshi



                            ---------------------------------
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                          • Anthony J. Bryant
                            ... I m reminded of the fact that Nobunaga s kao was a highly calligled and sylized kirin (as in, the mythical beast). The first time I saw it and was told
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 21, 2003
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                              Solveig wrote:

                              >
                              > Yes. You should devise a kao which is more of a monogram than what you might
                              > think of as a signature. Imagine writing your name in a sousho style script
                              > with all of the letters on top of each other in one place.
                              >

                              I'm reminded of the fact that Nobunaga's kao was a highly calligled and sylized
                              "kirin" (as in, the mythical beast). The first time I saw it and was told what
                              it was, I remember asking, "you're sure it doesn't read 'Rorschach'?"
                              <G>

                              Effingham






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                            • Anthony J. Bryant
                              ... There is no direct one-to-one assignment, I m afraid. The term shiten no byô is just a name given to the rivets -- individually, they haven t been
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 21, 2003
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                                "Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie " wrote:

                                > Greetings to all from Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie,
                                > Those of us who make Japanese style armor are familiar with four
                                > little rivit combos called "shi ten byo" or sometimes "she ten no byo"
                                > on the hachi of a kabuto.
                                > I am familiar with the names of the four Deva kings from Buddhism that
                                > these refer to, but I do not know which one is which on the hachi, if
                                > indeed the assignment has been made. Perhaps Baron Edward, or one of
                                > the other armor-familiar might be able to help.

                                There is no direct one-to-one assignment, I'm afraid. The term "shiten no
                                byô" is just a name given to the rivets -- individually, they haven't been
                                designated one or the other.

                                Sorry. <G>

                                Effingham
                              • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie <ka
                                Domo, Baron Effingham, I suspected as much, but always wondered... Date ... shiten no ... haven t been
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 22, 2003
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                                  Domo, Baron Effingham,
                                  I suspected as much, but always wondered...

                                  Date

                                  >
                                  > There is no direct one-to-one assignment, I'm afraid. The term
                                  "shiten no
                                  > byô" is just a name given to the rivets -- individually, they
                                  haven't been
                                  > designated one or the other.
                                  >
                                  > Sorry. <G>
                                  >
                                  > Effingham
                                • James Eckman
                                  ... Only if you have stainless steel teeth and jaw muscles of a bulldog. ... Rule of thumb for Chinese/Japanese calligraphy, the more artistic, the less
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 22, 2003
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                                    >
                                    >
                                    > From: BamboOni@...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > From: Park McKellop <squire009@...>
                                    >I bet the nuts are easier to chew. :-)
                                    >
                                    Only if you have stainless steel teeth and jaw muscles of a bulldog.

                                    > From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >I'm reminded of the fact that Nobunaga's kao was a highly calligled and sylized
                                    >"kirin" (as in, the mythical beast). The first time I saw it and was told what
                                    >it was, I remember asking, "you're sure it doesn't read 'Rorschach'?"
                                    ><G>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    Rule of thumb for Chinese/Japanese calligraphy, the more artistic, the
                                    less readable ;)

                                    > From: Solveig <nostrand@...>
                                    >
                                    >Greetings from Solveig! It sure does look like a chisel regardless
                                    >of how you weild it. Besides, Japanese saws work backwards from
                                    >European saws, but nobody has any problems calling both of them
                                    >saws.
                                    >
                                    >You are talking about the thing for carving rock aren't you? Not
                                    >the thing for carving wood? I have both.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    Yes, I'm talking about the one for rock which looks like a chisel but
                                    you don't push it, you slice/carve with it. You can call it whatever,
                                    but the people at the stores will call it a knife and probably don't
                                    understand what a chisel is. English is not a strong point among most of
                                    these vendors and I don't know the Japanese/Chinese names for the tool.
                                    I also have the wood carving tools and you do use the chisels as chisels
                                    then.

                                    >Yes. There are several ryuha for calligraphy. The one I belong to
                                    >publishes montly ratings in their magazine.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    Are you taking one of the classes by mail from Japan? I had a classmate
                                    that took those. She could draw them beautifully but couldn't read them.
                                    What scripts are you studying? I'm lucky that I know multiple
                                    calligraphy teachers! I can get help in person, which is good because my
                                    writing is not very good.

                                    Jim Eckman
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