Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

FW: book review

Expand Messages
  • Mokurai
    FYI for anyone else interested in gardening...
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 7, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      FYI for anyone else interested in gardening...

      >
      >
      > This was recently reviewed in _Choice_ Magazine:
      >
      > > Kuitert, Wybe. Themes in the history of Japanese garden art.
      > > Hawaii, 2002. 283p bibl index afp ISBN 0-8248-2312-5, $50.00 .
      > > Reviewed in 2003jan CHOICE. For this volume, a revised
      > > dissertation from 1988, Dutch landscape architect Kuitert (Kyoto
      > > Univ. of Art and Design) kept the chapter organization intact but has
      > > thoroughly rewritten the text, restructured the paragraphs, increased
      > > the glossary six times, added the index, and supplied 25 judiciously
      > > chosen color photographs. The book remains unchanged in substance,
      > > but is now more readable. Kuitert discusses the Japanese garden in
      > > three historical phases: the Heian garden made to evoke literary
      > > themes, the Muromachi garden inspired by Chinese painting and
      > > therefore characterized as scenes, and the 17th-century garden
      > > associated with the tea ceremony and thus self-consciously aesthetic.
      > > His history rambles; but his erudition is surely formidable and his
      > > discussion of social and cultural contexts solid and thorough. His
      > > use of literary, documentary, and graphic sources is exemplary, and
      > > he is skillful in describing historic gardens. His interpretive
      > > comments are best in scattered nuggets. In one critical coup, he
      > > regards the notion of the Zen garden as a perceptual invention of the
      > > early Showa writers and questions its application to the Muromachi
      > > gardens of dry landscape; his argument is ingenious but does not
      > > quite hold water. Essential for landscape experts, historians, and
      > > Japan specialists. General readers; lower-division undergraduates
      > > through professionals. -- T. K. Kitao, emerita, Swarthmore College
      >
    • Debbie Strub
      Greetings, I m researching Japanese seals with the intent of making one for myself to sign Baronial scrolls. Does anyone know where I can find information
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 17, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        Greetings,

        I'm researching Japanese seals with the intent of making one for myself to
        "sign" Baronial scrolls. Does anyone know where I can find information on
        writing the Tensho script? I've done some internet research and found lots
        of places that will make one for me but I want to make it myself. Any ideas?

        YIS,

        Murakami Tsuruko
        Baroness of Dragon's Laire
        Kingdom of An Tir

        (and lurker on the list)
      • Ii Saburou
        Regrettably, no. You may want to research the seals--find the characters that you want (or even characters with the elements you want), and look to see how
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 17, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          Regrettably, no.

          You may want to research the seals--find the characters that you want (or
          even characters with the elements you want), and look to see how they are
          put together.

          I would also recommend looking into differences between modern and ancient
          seals--I'm not sure what changes may have happened, but it might be a good
          thing to look into.

          -Ii

          On Fri, 17 Jan 2003, Debbie Strub wrote:

          > Greetings,
          >
          > I'm researching Japanese seals with the intent of making one for myself to
          > "sign" Baronial scrolls. Does anyone know where I can find information on
          > writing the Tensho script? I've done some internet research and found lots
          > of places that will make one for me but I want to make it myself. Any ideas?
          >
          > YIS,
          >
          > Murakami Tsuruko
          > Baroness of Dragon's Laire
          > Kingdom of An Tir
          >
          > (and lurker on the list)
          >
          >
          > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • Debbie Strub
          I do know that it s much older than Kanji and is still used nowadays exclusively for seals. One site implied that it was just kanji characters that were
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 17, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            I do know that it's much older than Kanji and is still used nowadays
            exclusively for seals. One site implied that it was just kanji characters
            that were rendered in a more linear or squared off fashion to make them
            easier to carve. I may have to do just that and fake it with kanji.

            YIS,

            Tsuruko

            At 03:44 PM 1/17/2003 -0900, Ii Saburou wrote:
            >Regrettably, no.
            >
            >You may want to research the seals--find the characters that you want (or
            >even characters with the elements you want), and look to see how they are
            >put together.
            >
            >I would also recommend looking into differences between modern and ancient
            >seals--I'm not sure what changes may have happened, but it might be a good
            >thing to look into.
            >
            >-Ii
            >
            >On Fri, 17 Jan 2003, Debbie Strub wrote:
            >
            > > Greetings,
            > >
            > > I'm researching Japanese seals with the intent of making one for
            > myself to
            > > "sign" Baronial scrolls. Does anyone know where I can find information on
            > > writing the Tensho script? I've done some internet research and found
            > lots
            > > of places that will make one for me but I want to make it myself. Any
            > ideas?
            > >
            > > YIS,
            > >
            > > Murakami Tsuruko
            > > Baroness of Dragon's Laire
            > > Kingdom of An Tir
            > >
            > > (and lurker on the list)
            > >
            > >
            > > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Solveig
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Seals are interesting. Some old seals produce impressions exhibiting mirror writing. Seals in general are eith deko or
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 17, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig! Seals are interesting. Some old seals produce
              impressions exhibiting mirror writing. Seals in general are eith deko
              or boko depending on whether it produces a positive or negative image.
              I believe that positive seals are prefered for attesting documents.
              Seals are known in Japan since about 350 CE or so, but were not that
              important for attesting documents until fairly recently. Generally,
              in medieval times, the kao was used to attest documents. As for seal
              orthography. Seals usually use the oldest form of the kanji. Many
              kanwajiten will give this to you.

              I have a Japanese book on how to carve inkan. Originally, I carved them
              out of stone and have the correct tools for doing so. However, a friend
              warned me of silicosis and I switched to wood years ago. Seals were
              commonly made out of metal, ivory, wood, and stone.

              As for baronial documents, if you can develop a kao, you should do so.
              However, there should also be a baronial seal as that would conform
              to historical practice.
              --

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
              | the trash by my email filters. |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            • Ii Saburou
              ... Well, they are kanji (Chinese characters) so it can t really be older than Kanji --but I do believe they often use older versions. Actually, you will
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 17, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                On Fri, 17 Jan 2003, Debbie Strub wrote:

                > I do know that it's much older than Kanji and is still used nowadays
                > exclusively for seals. One site implied that it was just kanji characters
                > that were rendered in a more linear or squared off fashion to make them
                > easier to carve. I may have to do just that and fake it with kanji.

                Well, they are kanji (Chinese characters) so it can't really be 'older
                than Kanji'--but I do believe they often use older versions.

                Actually, you will notice many different ways of writing Chinese
                characters. Seals, swords, brush calligraphy, chiseled characters--I took
                some pictures of some of the characters I found on stones at Nagoya
                castle, built in the 17th century, which you can find at:
                http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/pictures/ishiji5bg.JPG (there is also a
                '6', '7', and '8')

                Note: These are not examples of how characters would necessarily appear on
                seals, just an example of the type of 'signature' people created out of
                kanji characters.

                There does seem to be a specific style of writing used in seals. I
                believe that they do something with modern seals, though--there are
                generic seals that just have common names that anyone can buy, but then
                there are personal seals which are supposed to be unique to each person,
                and what they do to ensure it is unique, I'm not sure. I'm also not sure
                if that was something that they worried about quite as much in period;
                possibly it was enough that it was handmade and therefore very difficult
                to duplicate.

                Solveig does point out a good distinction you should make--whether you
                want a seal that leaves the characters voided or prints them with the ink.
                Basically, are you cutting into the seal, leaving the characters white on
                red, or are you curring out the seal, leaving the characters red on white.

                Let us all know how it turns out!

                -Ii
              • Solveig
                Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! As I recall, kaisho and not tensho predominates for use in seals. This applies to seals dating from the sixteenth
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 17, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  Noble Cousins!

                  Greetings from Solveig! As I recall, kaisho and not tensho predominates
                  for use in seals. This applies to seals dating from the sixteenth century
                  and earlier. Again as I recall, tensho is more of a calligraphic
                  form. Unfortunately my really good calligraphy book sprouted legs and
                  walked off at Pennsic a few years ago.

                  >there are personal seals which are supposed to be unique to each person,
                  >and what they do to ensure it is unique, I'm not sure. I'm also not sure
                  >if that was something that they worried about quite as much in period;

                  They don't assure that they are unique. They do register the things at
                  your local city hall. However, it is not hard to get a duplicate if you
                  go back to the place that you bought the thing and buy one with the same
                  letters written in the same style. The registery people are unlikely to
                  be able to tell the difference although a microscopic analysis will
                  probably be able to tell appart different seal impressions.

                  As for what they did in period. They used kao not inkan to sign documents.
                  There is also at least one example of a double full hand impression.
                  --

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                • Ii Saburou
                  ... The difference, I believe, is between inkan and tenkoku (which, now that I look at it, makes sense! I had been thinking heaven and wondering= What
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 18, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Sat, 18 Jan 2003, Solveig wrote:

                    > >there are personal seals which are supposed to be unique to each person,
                    > >and what they do to ensure it is unique, I'm not sure. I'm also not sure
                    > >if that was something that they worried about quite as much in period;
                    >
                    > They don't assure that they are unique. They do register the things at
                    > your local city hall. However, it is not hard to get a duplicate if you
                    > go back to the place that you bought the thing and buy one with the same
                    > letters written in the same style. The registery people are unlikely to
                    > be able to tell the difference although a microscopic analysis will
                    > probably be able to tell appart different seal impressions.

                    The difference, I believe, is between 'inkan' and 'tenkoku' (which, now
                    that I look at it, makes sense! I had been thinking 'heaven' and
                    wondering='What does heaven have to do with seals?' Doh! Stupid Romaji
                    confusion).

                    Inkan can be bough pre-made--probably even mass-produced, all for similar
                    names, just so that you can quickly give your name. Tenkoku, on the other
                    hand, are used for legal purposes and need to be unique. That's how it
                    was explained to me in Japan, at least.

                    Here's one example of differences:
                    http://www.takase.com/Names/HowToWritePart1.htm

                    And talk about the uniqueness (among other things) of tenkoku:
                    http://www.paperscissorsstone.com/pss/tenkoku_page1.htm

                    > As for what they did in period. They used kao not inkan to sign documents.
                    > There is also at least one example of a double full hand impression.

                    For those who don't know Japanese: inkan = stamp/seal; kao = signature.

                    BTW, looking online I found this site with a couple of books that have
                    examples of Tensho script:

                    http://www.kampo.co.jp/english/kccproducts-E/syodo-books/syodo-ListD.html

                    A little more on the history (Internet source: use at own risk) of Tensho:

                    http://www.dallasbudokai.com/artseds/Art_shodo.htm

                    Wish I had some hard and fast sources on this: I'm always wary of the
                    Internet, but hopefully this can give some leads to check it out.

                    -Ii
                  • James Eckman
                    ... I don t know of any places that have such a thing on-line but here s a few links to get started. http://pages.prodigy.net/fugu/sumi.html
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 18, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      sca-jml@yahoogroups.com wrote:

                      > From: Debbie Strub <tsuruko@...>
                      >
                      > I'm researching Japanese seals with the intent of making one for myself to
                      >"sign" Baronial scrolls. Does anyone know where I can find information on
                      >writing the Tensho script? I've done some internet research and found lots
                      >of places that will make one for me but I want to make it myself. Any ideas?
                      >
                      >
                      I don't know of any places that have such a thing on-line but here's a
                      few links to get started.
                      http://pages.prodigy.net/fugu/sumi.html
                      http://www.zhongwen.com/

                      Seal carving's not that difficult other than designing the actual seal,
                      I do remember a website that showed how to do it and in San Francisco at
                      least you can buy blank seals at many stores.

                      > From: Ii Saburou <logan@...>
                      >
                      >I would also recommend looking into differences between modern and ancient
                      >seals--I'm not sure what changes may have happened, but it might be a good
                      >thing to look into.
                      >
                      >
                      There are changes, but some people continue using the more archaic
                      styles as well so there are character dictionaries for drawing them
                      available as books. Note, I've never seen that info on line so pass on
                      any links you find!

                      > From: Solveig <nostrand@...>
                      >Subject: Re: Tenkoku
                      >
                      >Noble Cousin!
                      >
                      >Greetings from Solveig! Seals are interesting. Some old seals produce
                      >impressions exhibiting mirror writing. Seals in general are eith deko
                      >or boko depending on whether it produces a positive or negative image.
                      >I believe that positive seals are prefered for attesting documents.
                      >
                      I don't know what the ancient customs for that are, but I've seen both
                      used for recent items.

                      >I have a Japanese book on how to carve inkan. Originally, I carved them
                      >out of stone and have the correct tools for doing so. However, a friend
                      >warned me of silicosis
                      >
                      I can't imagine getting silicosis if you are using a seal carving knife,
                      the pieces that are carved off are way too big. I don't recommend dremel
                      tools unless you are really good with them and then I would use a mask.

                      >and I switched to wood years ago. Seals were
                      >commonly made out of metal, ivory, wood, and stone.
                      >
                      >
                      You can cheat and use linoleum as well! Easily available at places like
                      Micheals. Please don't buy new ivory for carving. You could try Corian
                      scraps as an ivory replacement if you wanted that look.

                      Also note that most seal ink is highly toxic, don't leave it around
                      small children!

                      Jim Eckman
                    • Debbie Strub
                      ... You re right of course; that s what I meant to say. I m a bit brainless while I m on these cold medications... ... I d planned on using the positive
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 18, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        At 07:14 PM 1/17/2003 -0900, you wrote:
                        >On Fri, 17 Jan 2003, Debbie Strub wrote:
                        >
                        > > I do know that it's much older than Kanji and is still used nowadays
                        > > exclusively for seals. One site implied that it was just kanji characters
                        > > that were rendered in a more linear or squared off fashion to make them
                        > > easier to carve. I may have to do just that and fake it with kanji.
                        >
                        >Well, they are kanji (Chinese characters) so it can't really be 'older
                        >than Kanji'--but I do believe they often use older versions.

                        You're right of course; that's what I meant to say. I'm a bit
                        brainless while I'm on these cold medications...


                        >Actually, you will notice many different ways of writing Chinese
                        >characters. Seals, swords, brush calligraphy, chiseled characters--I took
                        >some pictures of some of the characters I found on stones at Nagoya
                        >castle, built in the 17th century, which you can find at:
                        >http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/pictures/ishiji5bg.JPG (there is also a
                        >'6', '7', and '8')
                        >
                        >Note: These are not examples of how characters would necessarily appear on
                        >seals, just an example of the type of 'signature' people created out of
                        >kanji characters.
                        >
                        >There does seem to be a specific style of writing used in seals. I
                        >believe that they do something with modern seals, though--there are
                        >generic seals that just have common names that anyone can buy, but then
                        >there are personal seals which are supposed to be unique to each person,
                        >and what they do to ensure it is unique, I'm not sure. I'm also not sure
                        >if that was something that they worried about quite as much in period;
                        >possibly it was enough that it was handmade and therefore very difficult
                        >to duplicate.
                        >
                        >Solveig does point out a good distinction you should make--whether you
                        >want a seal that leaves the characters voided or prints them with the ink.
                        >Basically, are you cutting into the seal, leaving the characters white on
                        >red, or are you curring out the seal, leaving the characters red on white.

                        I'd planned on using the "positive" version, red characters on white.

                        Tsuruko


                        >Let us all know how it turns out!
                        >
                        >-Ii
                        >
                        >
                        >UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • Debbie Strub
                        Now I m really confused. It sounds like I should just keep signing my name on the scrolls rather than using a seal because that s more correct for us. Am I
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 18, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Now I'm really confused. It sounds like I should just keep
                          signing my name on the scrolls rather than using a seal because that's more
                          correct for us. Am I understanding you correctly?
                          Unfortunately I don't have a lot of information on this other than
                          a few lines here and there in various books and some internet research
                          (which is admittedly suspect).

                          YIS,

                          Tsuruko

                          At 12:52 AM 1/18/2003 -0500, you wrote:
                          >Noble Cousins!
                          >
                          >Greetings from Solveig! As I recall, kaisho and not tensho predominates
                          >for use in seals. This applies to seals dating from the sixteenth century
                          >and earlier. Again as I recall, tensho is more of a calligraphic
                          >form. Unfortunately my really good calligraphy book sprouted legs and
                          >walked off at Pennsic a few years ago.
                          >
                          > >there are personal seals which are supposed to be unique to each person,
                          > >and what they do to ensure it is unique, I'm not sure. I'm also not sure
                          > >if that was something that they worried about quite as much in period;
                          >
                          >They don't assure that they are unique. They do register the things at
                          >your local city hall. However, it is not hard to get a duplicate if you
                          >go back to the place that you bought the thing and buy one with the same
                          >letters written in the same style. The registery people are unlikely to
                          >be able to tell the difference although a microscopic analysis will
                          >probably be able to tell appart different seal impressions.
                          >
                          >As for what they did in period. They used kao not inkan to sign documents.
                          >There is also at least one example of a double full hand impression.
                          >--
                          >
                          > Your Humble Servant
                          > Solveig Throndardottir
                          > Amateur Scholar
                          >
                          >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          >| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                          >| deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                          >| mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                          >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          >| Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                          >| the trash by my email filters. |
                          >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          >
                          >UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • Ii Saburou
                          ... I would like to see sources on what the kao (signature) vs. tenkoku (seal) were used for. It sounds like an inkan is a stamp of your name--it s like
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 18, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On Sat, 18 Jan 2003, Debbie Strub wrote:

                            > Now I'm really confused. It sounds like I should just keep
                            > signing my name on the scrolls rather than using a seal because that's more
                            > correct for us. Am I understanding you correctly?
                            > Unfortunately I don't have a lot of information on this other than
                            > a few lines here and there in various books and some internet research
                            > (which is admittedly suspect).

                            I would like to see sources on what the kao (signature) vs. tenkoku (seal)
                            were used for. It sounds like an inkan is a stamp of your name--it's like
                            printing your name, more than signing it. The kao does make sense as
                            individuallistic--but for official functions, I can hardly see the local
                            governing official signing everything like that. For that I would imagine
                            they would use the tenkoku.

                            This is all conjecture, however, based on what I know of people and how I
                            have seen inkan--if not tenkoku--used.

                            The thing we need to do is find out what sorts of extant documents we can
                            find from the period in question (or research on extant documents) and see
                            what we can find. Not sure what sort of studies have been done on that,
                            though.

                            -Ii
                          • Debbie Strub
                            I was thinking along those same lines. We ll see what I can turn up. Thanks for all your help. YIS, Tsuruko
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 18, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I was thinking along those same lines. We'll see what I can turn
                              up. Thanks for all your help.

                              YIS,

                              Tsuruko

                              At 08:32 AM 1/18/2003 -0900, you wrote:
                              >On Sat, 18 Jan 2003, Debbie Strub wrote:
                              >
                              > > Now I'm really confused. It sounds like I should just keep
                              > > signing my name on the scrolls rather than using a seal because that's
                              > more
                              > > correct for us. Am I understanding you correctly?
                              > > Unfortunately I don't have a lot of information on this other
                              > than
                              > > a few lines here and there in various books and some internet research
                              > > (which is admittedly suspect).
                              >
                              >I would like to see sources on what the kao (signature) vs. tenkoku (seal)
                              >were used for. It sounds like an inkan is a stamp of your name--it's like
                              >printing your name, more than signing it. The kao does make sense as
                              >individuallistic--but for official functions, I can hardly see the local
                              >governing official signing everything like that. For that I would imagine
                              >they would use the tenkoku.
                              >
                              >This is all conjecture, however, based on what I know of people and how I
                              >have seen inkan--if not tenkoku--used.
                              >
                              >The thing we need to do is find out what sorts of extant documents we can
                              >find from the period in question (or research on extant documents) and see
                              >what we can find. Not sure what sort of studies have been done on that,
                              >though.
                              >
                              >-Ii
                              >
                              >
                              >UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            • Bill Fornshell <bfornshell@yahoo.com>
                              Hi, I have been reading the past messages on the subject. If some of this has been covered before I am sorry. Koa, also called Shohan (written seal) or
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 18, 2003
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi, I have been reading the past messages on the subject. If
                                some of this has been covered before I am sorry.
                                "Koa, also called Shohan (written seal) or Hangyo (seal
                                shape) are written by hand rather than stamped or printed, and
                                constitute a stylized type of signature. They can be written along
                                with one's name, or they, in themselves, can serve as one's
                                signature. The Chinese character for "ka" in the compound "kao"
                                means flower, suggesting that one's signature is written in a
                                form as beautiful as a flower. the word kasho (flower
                                inscription), kagyo (flower shape), and kahan (flower seal) also
                                refer to kao."
                                This is from an article in the Chanoyu Quarterly # 76. Most of this
                                issue is about the Kao. Solveig or Barbara as I know her
                                should know about the Chanoyu Quarterly and may even have a
                                copy. I can comment on the "Seal Scrip" lettering used for
                                seals also, but I am on my way to the local library to pickup a
                                book before they close. Bill

                                -- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Debbie Strub <tsuruko@r...>
                                wrote:
                                > I was thinking along those same lines. We'll see what I can
                                turn
                                > up. Thanks for all your help.
                                >
                                > YIS,
                                >
                                > Tsuruko
                                >
                                > At 08:32 AM 1/18/2003 -0900, you wrote:
                                > >On Sat, 18 Jan 2003, Debbie Strub wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > Now I'm really confused. It sounds like I should just
                                keep
                                > > > signing my name on the scrolls rather than using a seal
                                because that's
                                > > more
                                > > > correct for us. Am I understanding you correctly?
                                > > > Unfortunately I don't have a lot of information on this
                                other
                                > > than
                                > > > a few lines here and there in various books and some
                                internet research
                                > > > (which is admittedly suspect).
                                > >
                                > >I would like to see sources on what the kao (signature) vs.
                                tenkoku (seal)
                                > >were used for. It sounds like an inkan is a stamp of your
                                name--it's like
                                > >printing your name, more than signing it. The kao does make
                                sense as
                                > >individuallistic--but for official functions, I can hardly see the
                                local
                                > >governing official signing everything like that. For that I would
                                imagine
                                > >they would use the tenkoku.
                                > >
                                > >This is all conjecture, however, based on what I know of
                                people and how I
                                > >have seen inkan--if not tenkoku--used.
                                > >
                                > >The thing we need to do is find out what sorts of extant
                                documents we can
                                > >find from the period in question (or research on extant
                                documents) and see
                                > >what we can find. Not sure what sort of studies have been
                                done on that,
                                > >though.
                                > >
                                > >-Ii
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail
                                sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > >
                                > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              • Solveig
                                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Three more Japanese words are hanko which is generic and jitsuin or true seal and motome (if I remember that word
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 18, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Noble Cousin!

                                  Greetings from Solveig! Three more Japanese words are hanko which is generic
                                  and jitsuin or "true seal" and motome (if I remember that word correctly).
                                  The individually made things are not gauranteed to be unique. They are just
                                  not those mass produced things you see stuck in display racks like pencils.
                                  The legal signature seals are the ones registered at city hall. Period.

                                  My registration card from Musashino city hall says "Inkan Tourokusho" on it.
                                  The one from Mitaka city hall says the same thing. The registered seals are
                                  called "inkan" in government documents.

                                  Tensho refers to a "shotai" calligraphic style of font. This calligraphic
                                  font is frequently used in inkan. (ref. Daijirin.) Please forgive my lapse
                                  of memory. Kaisho is a very clear calligraphic form in the kaisho ->
                                  gyousho -> shousho sequence. There is an interesting calligraphic form which
                                  I thought that you were refering to. It is about twice as wide as it is
                                  high and is fairly old. Kanwajiten generally show the tensho version of
                                  popular kanji as a gloss to the text. Alas, my memory is turning to mush.

                                  Tensho does not use the kanji for heaven. Neither does tenkoku. Tenkoku
                                  uses the same ten ans tensho and refers to making seal impressions.

                                  Tenkai does have "heaven" in it and is one the ten Dharma worlds of Tientai
                                  Buddhism and its derivatives.

                                  There are special kanji for numbers customariliy used in legal documents.
                                  Ordinary numerical letters can easily be changed by adding a few brush
                                  strokes. The special legal numerals have extra brush strokes which make
                                  this sort of modification impossible.

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar

                                  --

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar

                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                • Solveig
                                  Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! The traditional seal carving tool is a ctually a small chisel and not a knife. You can buy the things at calligraphy
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 18, 2003
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Noble Cousins!

                                    Greetings from Solveig! The traditional seal carving tool is a ctually a
                                    small chisel and not a knife. You can buy the things at calligraphy supply
                                    stores in Japan.

                                    I do not recommend eating seal ink.

                                    > Now I'm really confused. It sounds like I should just keep
                                    >signing my name on the scrolls rather than using a seal because that's more
                                    >correct for us. Am I understanding you correctly?
                                    > Unfortunately I don't have a lot of information on this other than
                                    >a few lines here and there in various books and some internet research
                                    >(which is admittedly suspect).

                                    Yes. You should devise a kao which is more of a monogram than what you might
                                    think of as a signature. Imagine writing your name in a sousho style script
                                    with all of the letters on top of each other in one place.

                                    You can make a seal for the barony. That would be spiffy. I have been making
                                    seals for royalty, because I can not expect them to learn how to write kao,
                                    not because I think that it is the best approach.

                                    Mass writes about the use of kao in Antiquity and Anachronism in Japanese
                                    History.

                                    Gosh. That calligraphy mill charges $160.00 for a certificate.
                                    --

                                    Your Humble Servant
                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Amateur Scholar

                                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                    | the trash by my email filters. |
                                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie <ka
                                    Greetings to all from Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie, Those of us who make Japanese style armor are familiar with four little rivit combos called shi
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 20, 2003
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Greetings to all from Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie,
                                      Those of us who make Japanese style armor are familiar with four
                                      little rivit combos called "shi ten byo" or sometimes "she ten no byo"
                                      on the hachi of a kabuto.
                                      I am familiar with the names of the four Deva kings from Buddhism that
                                      these refer to, but I do not know which one is which on the hachi, if
                                      indeed the assignment has been made. Perhaps Baron Edward, or one of
                                      the other armor-familiar might be able to help.
                                      In search of humble understanding...
                                      Date

                                      Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
                                      Shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the grave
                                      http://www.kabutographics.com
                                      kabuto@...
                                    • James Eckman
                                      ... True, but in English anybody who I ve met calls it a knive and you don t push it like a chisel. I recommend buying a 1/4 or 3/16 bits of high speed steel
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 20, 2003
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > From: Solveig <nostrand@...>
                                        >
                                        >Noble Cousins!
                                        >
                                        >Greetings from Solveig! The traditional seal carving tool is a ctually a
                                        >small chisel and not a knife. You can buy the things at calligraphy supply
                                        >stores in Japan.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        True, but in English anybody who I've met calls it a knive and you don't
                                        push it like a chisel. I recommend buying a 1/4" or 3/16" bits of high
                                        speed steel (cheap) and wrapping them with rubber tape and the like. The
                                        stores want $20-30 for this little bit.

                                        >Gosh. That calligraphy mill charges $160.00 for a certificate.
                                        >
                                        From what I've read, calligraphy in Japan is all about certificates and
                                        not much to do with art. So this is not surprising. They have levels,
                                        formal schools, the works.

                                        Jim Eckman

                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Elaine Koogler
                                        I know that the Chinese used what are termed the great seal characters for their seals. These are not just squared off characters/kanji, but rather an
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 20, 2003
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I know that the Chinese used what are termed the "great seal characters" for their seals. These are not just squared off characters/kanji, but rather an archaic form of their written language. You can see excellent examples of them if you can locate pictures of the bottoms of some of the early bronzes. I don't know, but my suspicion is that, as the Japanese frequently adopted Chinese culture wholesale, that this could be the case here as well.

                                          Kiri
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: Debbie Strub
                                          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 10:04 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Tenkoku


                                          I do know that it's much older than Kanji and is still used nowadays
                                          exclusively for seals. One site implied that it was just kanji characters
                                          that were rendered in a more linear or squared off fashion to make them
                                          easier to carve. I may have to do just that and fake it with kanji.

                                          YIS,

                                          Tsuruko

                                          At 03:44 PM 1/17/2003 -0900, Ii Saburou wrote:
                                          >Regrettably, no.
                                          >
                                          >You may want to research the seals--find the characters that you want (or
                                          >even characters with the elements you want), and look to see how they are
                                          >put together.
                                          >
                                          >I would also recommend looking into differences between modern and ancient
                                          >seals--I'm not sure what changes may have happened, but it might be a good
                                          >thing to look into.
                                          >
                                          >-Ii
                                          >
                                          >On Fri, 17 Jan 2003, Debbie Strub wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Greetings,
                                          > >
                                          > > I'm researching Japanese seals with the intent of making one for
                                          > myself to
                                          > > "sign" Baronial scrolls. Does anyone know where I can find information on
                                          > > writing the Tensho script? I've done some internet research and found
                                          > lots
                                          > > of places that will make one for me but I want to make it myself. Any
                                          > ideas?
                                          > >
                                          > > YIS,
                                          > >
                                          > > Murakami Tsuruko
                                          > > Baroness of Dragon's Laire
                                          > > Kingdom of An Tir
                                          > >
                                          > > (and lurker on the list)
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > >
                                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


                                          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                          ADVERTISEMENT




                                          UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Elaine Koogler
                                          Again, as I m not really familiar with Japanese seals, I m not sure I m on firm ground here. However, if the Japanese seals follow the way the Chinese seals
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jan 20, 2003
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Again, as I'm not really familiar with Japanese seals, I'm not sure I'm on firm ground here. However, if the Japanese seals follow the way the Chinese seals were made, they were usually composed of great seal characters carved into soapstone, almost like a stamp. So what you get when you print it is the characters voided.

                                            Kiri
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: Ii Saburou
                                            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 11:14 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Tenkoku


                                            On Fri, 17 Jan 2003, Debbie Strub wrote:

                                            > I do know that it's much older than Kanji and is still used nowadays
                                            > exclusively for seals. One site implied that it was just kanji characters
                                            > that were rendered in a more linear or squared off fashion to make them
                                            > easier to carve. I may have to do just that and fake it with kanji.

                                            Well, they are kanji (Chinese characters) so it can't really be 'older
                                            than Kanji'--but I do believe they often use older versions.

                                            Actually, you will notice many different ways of writing Chinese
                                            characters. Seals, swords, brush calligraphy, chiseled characters--I took
                                            some pictures of some of the characters I found on stones at Nagoya
                                            castle, built in the 17th century, which you can find at:
                                            http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/pictures/ishiji5bg.JPG (there is also a
                                            '6', '7', and '8')

                                            Note: These are not examples of how characters would necessarily appear on
                                            seals, just an example of the type of 'signature' people created out of
                                            kanji characters.

                                            There does seem to be a specific style of writing used in seals. I
                                            believe that they do something with modern seals, though--there are
                                            generic seals that just have common names that anyone can buy, but then
                                            there are personal seals which are supposed to be unique to each person,
                                            and what they do to ensure it is unique, I'm not sure. I'm also not sure
                                            if that was something that they worried about quite as much in period;
                                            possibly it was enough that it was handmade and therefore very difficult
                                            to duplicate.

                                            Solveig does point out a good distinction you should make--whether you
                                            want a seal that leaves the characters voided or prints them with the ink.
                                            Basically, are you cutting into the seal, leaving the characters white on
                                            red, or are you curring out the seal, leaving the characters red on white.

                                            Let us all know how it turns out!

                                            -Ii


                                            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                            ADVERTISEMENT




                                            UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Elaine Koogler
                                            there are also some nuts...can t remember the name, but it s something like takua nut or along those lines, that s being used for carving/scrimshaw/etc as it
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jan 20, 2003
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              there are also some nuts...can't remember the name, but it's something like takua nut or along those lines, that's being used for carving/scrimshaw/etc as it mimics ivory, but is a vegetable rather than coming from an animal. I'm not sure how well it would work...i.e., it might be too porous to work well.

                                              Kiri
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: James Eckman
                                              To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 8:41 AM
                                              Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Tenkoku


                                              sca-jml@yahoogroups.com wrote:

                                              > From: Debbie Strub <tsuruko@...>
                                              >
                                              > I'm researching Japanese seals with the intent of making one for myself to
                                              >"sign" Baronial scrolls. Does anyone know where I can find information on
                                              >writing the Tensho script? I've done some internet research and found lots
                                              >of places that will make one for me but I want to make it myself. Any ideas?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              I don't know of any places that have such a thing on-line but here's a
                                              few links to get started.
                                              http://pages.prodigy.net/fugu/sumi.html
                                              http://www.zhongwen.com/

                                              Seal carving's not that difficult other than designing the actual seal,
                                              I do remember a website that showed how to do it and in San Francisco at
                                              least you can buy blank seals at many stores.

                                              > From: Ii Saburou <logan@...>
                                              >
                                              >I would also recommend looking into differences between modern and ancient
                                              >seals--I'm not sure what changes may have happened, but it might be a good
                                              >thing to look into.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              There are changes, but some people continue using the more archaic
                                              styles as well so there are character dictionaries for drawing them
                                              available as books. Note, I've never seen that info on line so pass on
                                              any links you find!

                                              > From: Solveig <nostrand@...>
                                              >Subject: Re: Tenkoku
                                              >
                                              >Noble Cousin!
                                              >
                                              >Greetings from Solveig! Seals are interesting. Some old seals produce
                                              >impressions exhibiting mirror writing. Seals in general are eith deko
                                              >or boko depending on whether it produces a positive or negative image.
                                              >I believe that positive seals are prefered for attesting documents.
                                              >
                                              I don't know what the ancient customs for that are, but I've seen both
                                              used for recent items.

                                              >I have a Japanese book on how to carve inkan. Originally, I carved them
                                              >out of stone and have the correct tools for doing so. However, a friend
                                              >warned me of silicosis
                                              >
                                              I can't imagine getting silicosis if you are using a seal carving knife,
                                              the pieces that are carved off are way too big. I don't recommend dremel
                                              tools unless you are really good with them and then I would use a mask.

                                              >and I switched to wood years ago. Seals were
                                              >commonly made out of metal, ivory, wood, and stone.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              You can cheat and use linoleum as well! Easily available at places like
                                              Micheals. Please don't buy new ivory for carving. You could try Corian
                                              scraps as an ivory replacement if you wanted that look.

                                              Also note that most seal ink is highly toxic, don't leave it around
                                              small children!

                                              Jim Eckman


                                              Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                              ADVERTISEMENT




                                              UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Solveig
                                              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! It sure does look like a chisel regardless of how you weild it. Besides, Japanese saws work backwards from European saws,
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jan 20, 2003
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Noble Cousin!

                                                Greetings from Solveig! It sure does look like a chisel regardless
                                                of how you weild it. Besides, Japanese saws work backwards from
                                                European saws, but nobody has any problems calling both of them
                                                saws.

                                                You are talking about the thing for carving rock aren't you? Not
                                                the thing for carving wood? I have both.

                                                Yes. There are several ryuha for calligraphy. The one I belong to
                                                publishes montly ratings in their magazine.
                                                --

                                                Your Humble Servant
                                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                                Amateur Scholar

                                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                                | the trash by my email filters. |
                                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                              • BamboOni@aol.com
                                                In a message dated 1/20/2003 9:46:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... They are called Tagua nuts. And if polished right you can t tell the difference between them
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jan 21, 2003
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  In a message dated 1/20/2003 9:46:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                                                  ekoogler1@... writes:

                                                  > there are also some nuts...can't remember the name, but it's something like
                                                  > takua nut or along those lines, that's being used for carving/scrimshaw/etc
                                                  > as it mimics ivory, but is a vegetable rather than coming from an animal.
                                                  > I'm not sure how well it would work...i.e., it might be too porous to work
                                                  > well.
                                                  >

                                                  They are called Tagua nuts. And if polished right you can't tell the
                                                  difference between them and ivory(unless your an expert) :)


                                                  Takebayashi Genpachi

                                                  'Only the bamboo knows the pure breeze'
                                                  Zen Master Nanrei Kobori-roshi


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • James Eckman
                                                  ... Yes, they have they are the much older forms. Quite artistic in their own way. ... They use it nowadays, but I m clueless about historical usage. ... They
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jan 21, 2003
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...>
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >These are not just squared off characters/kanji, but rather an archaic form of their written language.
                                                    >
                                                    Yes, they have they are the much older forms. Quite artistic in their
                                                    own way.

                                                    >I don't know, but my suspicion is that, as the Japanese frequently adopted Chinese culture wholesale, that this could be the case here as well.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    They use it nowadays, but I'm clueless about historical usage.

                                                    > Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 10:04 PM
                                                    > Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Tenkoku
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > I do know that it's much older than Kanji and is still used nowadays
                                                    > exclusively for seals. One site implied that it was just kanji characters
                                                    > that were rendered in a more linear or squared off fashion to make them
                                                    > easier to carve. I may have to do just that and fake it with kanji.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    They were carved originally on oracle bones and the like. This is pre-paper.

                                                    > From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...>
                                                    >Subject: Re: Re: Tenkoku
                                                    >
                                                    >there are also some nuts...can't remember the name, but it's something like takua nut
                                                    >
                                                    Tagua.

                                                    >or along those lines, that's being used for carving/scrimshaw/etc as it mimics ivory, but is a vegetable rather than coming from an animal. I'm not sure how well it would work...i.e., it might be too porous to work well.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    I have some, but I haven't used them for seals, they tend to be small
                                                    though. They aren't very porous, available from some woodworking dealers.

                                                    Jim Eckman
                                                  • Park McKellop
                                                    I bet the nuts are easier to chew. :-) Are they edible? Alcyoneus BamboOni@aol.com wrote:They are called Tagua nuts. And if polished right you can t tell the
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jan 21, 2003
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      I bet the nuts are easier to chew. :-) Are they edible?
                                                      Alcyoneus
                                                      BamboOni@... wrote:They are called Tagua nuts. And if polished right you can't tell the
                                                      difference between them and ivory(unless your an expert) :)


                                                      Takebayashi Genpachi

                                                      'Only the bamboo knows the pure breeze'
                                                      Zen Master Nanrei Kobori-roshi



                                                      ---------------------------------
                                                      Do you Yahoo!?
                                                      Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                                                      ... I m reminded of the fact that Nobunaga s kao was a highly calligled and sylized kirin (as in, the mythical beast). The first time I saw it and was told
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jan 21, 2003
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Solveig wrote:

                                                        >
                                                        > Yes. You should devise a kao which is more of a monogram than what you might
                                                        > think of as a signature. Imagine writing your name in a sousho style script
                                                        > with all of the letters on top of each other in one place.
                                                        >

                                                        I'm reminded of the fact that Nobunaga's kao was a highly calligled and sylized
                                                        "kirin" (as in, the mythical beast). The first time I saw it and was told what
                                                        it was, I remember asking, "you're sure it doesn't read 'Rorschach'?"
                                                        <G>

                                                        Effingham






                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                                                        ... There is no direct one-to-one assignment, I m afraid. The term shiten no byô is just a name given to the rivets -- individually, they haven t been
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jan 21, 2003
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          "Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie " wrote:

                                                          > Greetings to all from Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie,
                                                          > Those of us who make Japanese style armor are familiar with four
                                                          > little rivit combos called "shi ten byo" or sometimes "she ten no byo"
                                                          > on the hachi of a kabuto.
                                                          > I am familiar with the names of the four Deva kings from Buddhism that
                                                          > these refer to, but I do not know which one is which on the hachi, if
                                                          > indeed the assignment has been made. Perhaps Baron Edward, or one of
                                                          > the other armor-familiar might be able to help.

                                                          There is no direct one-to-one assignment, I'm afraid. The term "shiten no
                                                          byô" is just a name given to the rivets -- individually, they haven't been
                                                          designated one or the other.

                                                          Sorry. <G>

                                                          Effingham
                                                        • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie <ka
                                                          Domo, Baron Effingham, I suspected as much, but always wondered... Date ... shiten no ... haven t been
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jan 22, 2003
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Domo, Baron Effingham,
                                                            I suspected as much, but always wondered...

                                                            Date

                                                            >
                                                            > There is no direct one-to-one assignment, I'm afraid. The term
                                                            "shiten no
                                                            > byô" is just a name given to the rivets -- individually, they
                                                            haven't been
                                                            > designated one or the other.
                                                            >
                                                            > Sorry. <G>
                                                            >
                                                            > Effingham
                                                          • James Eckman
                                                            ... Only if you have stainless steel teeth and jaw muscles of a bulldog. ... Rule of thumb for Chinese/Japanese calligraphy, the more artistic, the less
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Jan 22, 2003
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > From: BamboOni@...
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > From: Park McKellop <squire009@...>
                                                              >I bet the nuts are easier to chew. :-)
                                                              >
                                                              Only if you have stainless steel teeth and jaw muscles of a bulldog.

                                                              > From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >I'm reminded of the fact that Nobunaga's kao was a highly calligled and sylized
                                                              >"kirin" (as in, the mythical beast). The first time I saw it and was told what
                                                              >it was, I remember asking, "you're sure it doesn't read 'Rorschach'?"
                                                              ><G>
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              Rule of thumb for Chinese/Japanese calligraphy, the more artistic, the
                                                              less readable ;)

                                                              > From: Solveig <nostrand@...>
                                                              >
                                                              >Greetings from Solveig! It sure does look like a chisel regardless
                                                              >of how you weild it. Besides, Japanese saws work backwards from
                                                              >European saws, but nobody has any problems calling both of them
                                                              >saws.
                                                              >
                                                              >You are talking about the thing for carving rock aren't you? Not
                                                              >the thing for carving wood? I have both.
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              Yes, I'm talking about the one for rock which looks like a chisel but
                                                              you don't push it, you slice/carve with it. You can call it whatever,
                                                              but the people at the stores will call it a knife and probably don't
                                                              understand what a chisel is. English is not a strong point among most of
                                                              these vendors and I don't know the Japanese/Chinese names for the tool.
                                                              I also have the wood carving tools and you do use the chisels as chisels
                                                              then.

                                                              >Yes. There are several ryuha for calligraphy. The one I belong to
                                                              >publishes montly ratings in their magazine.
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              Are you taking one of the classes by mail from Japan? I had a classmate
                                                              that took those. She could draw them beautifully but couldn't read them.
                                                              What scripts are you studying? I'm lucky that I know multiple
                                                              calligraphy teachers! I can get help in person, which is good because my
                                                              writing is not very good.

                                                              Jim Eckman
                                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.