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cloaks

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  • Doug Shannon <Professor03@hotmail.com>
    Can someone give me a clue as to what a cloak would look like/how it would be constructed toward the latter portion of the SCA period? I m not looking for info
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 13, 2002
      Can someone give me a clue as to what a cloak would look like/how it
      would be constructed toward the latter portion of the SCA period?

      I'm not looking for info on grass/peasant cloaks, I'm more interested
      in something worn by a mid-level samurai beaurocrat.


      Silvester Burchardt
    • Solveig
      Nobld Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... In the later part of the sixteenth century, they may simply wear an imported Iberian cloak. As for cloaks in general.
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 13, 2002
        Nobld Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        >Can someone give me a clue as to what a cloak would look like/how it
        >would be constructed toward the latter portion of the SCA period?

        In the later part of the sixteenth century, they may simply wear an
        imported Iberian cloak. As for cloaks in general. They didn't use
        them all that much. Except of course for those grass things that you
        see peasants wearing.
        --

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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      • Ii Saburou
        ... Generally you don t see cloaks other then the mino, a straw rain coat. If you are thinking cloak in terms of certain translations of Japanese literary
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 14, 2002
          > >Can someone give me a clue as to what a cloak would look like/how it
          > >would be constructed toward the latter portion of the SCA period?

          Generally you don't see cloaks other then the mino, a straw rain coat. If
          you are thinking 'cloak' in terms of certain translations of Japanese
          literary works, then it really depends on what you are looking at (Tale of
          Genji is the one that usually comes to mind, where a kariginu is sometimes
          referred to as a 'hunting cloak' in some translations, IIRC).

          You do see jinbaori later in period that could be taken for capes; they
          are worn over armor and generally appear to mimic the Portugese mantles of
          the same period (late 16th C). Someone could also, conceivably, be
          interpretting a dobuku as a cloak, although I would find such a definition
          horribly inaccurate. I could also see a horo(sp?) being defined as a
          cloak or cape, although I don't know that such a definition fits there,
          either.

          What are you looking for, and that might help people find it. Not in
          terms of 'cloak', 'shirt', etc. but more of what function--Are you looking
          for rain/cold weather gear? Are you looking for the outermost garment a
          person would wear? Are you looking at pictures and trying to figure out
          how to make something?

          The easiest way to make a Japanese cloak is really just to do nothing,
          since they didn't have 'cloaks' that I'm aware of, but I think you might
          be considering something else.

          -Ii
        • kujika@aol.com
          what about a Kappa. As seen on the web page
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 14, 2002
            what about a Kappa.
            As seen on the web page <A HREF="http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/warring5.htm">http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/warring5.htm</A>
            it's listed as a rain coat with or with out liner.
            http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/image-e/tabigarasu-dai.jpg
            the traveling gambler looks to me like he has a cloak.
            it is not the Mino that is listed above it
















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • ShadowKnight <shadow4549@yahoo.com>
            Is there a picture of what one of these cloaks would look like? Some of the events get kinda cold at night and having a cloak would definently help. I d like
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 15, 2002
              Is there a picture of what one of these cloaks would look like? Some
              of the events get kinda cold at night and having a cloak would
              definently help. I'd like to try and make one for Estrella War.
              Arigato gozaimasu
              Minamoto Genkuro Tanekage


              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
              > Nobld Cousin!
              >
              > Greetings from Solveig!
              >
              > >Can someone give me a clue as to what a cloak would look like/how
              it
              > >would be constructed toward the latter portion of the SCA period?
              >
              > In the later part of the sixteenth century, they may simply wear an
              > imported Iberian cloak. As for cloaks in general. They didn't use
              > them all that much. Except of course for those grass things that
              you
              > see peasants wearing.
              > --
              >
              > Your Humble Servant
              > Solveig Throndardottir
              > Amateur Scholar
              >
              > +------------------------------------------------------------------
              ----+
              > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM,
              CoS |
              > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis
              Est |
              > | mailto:nostrand@a... | mailto:bnostran@l... |
              > +------------------------------------------------------------------
              ----+
              > | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically
              routed to |
              > | the trash by my email
              filters. |
              > +------------------------------------------------------------------
              ----+
            • Anthony J. Bryant
              ... Well, this is a bit problematic. The only cloaks that existed -- other than the straw rain capes -- were imported European ones worn by some high-level
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 16, 2002
                "Doug Shannon " wrote:

                > Can someone give me a clue as to what a cloak would look like/how it
                > would be constructed toward the latter portion of the SCA period?
                >
                > I'm not looking for info on grass/peasant cloaks, I'm more interested
                > in something worn by a mid-level samurai beaurocrat.
                >

                Well, this is a bit problematic. The only cloaks that existed -- other than
                the straw rain capes -- were imported European ones worn by some high-level
                samurai as an exotic status symbol. These were the late 16th C. demi-capes,
                too, dressy formal things, not the kind of "keep you warm and envelop you"
                cloaks that we typically think of with the word "cape."

                In the mid Edo period, something called "kappa" (after the Spanish term,
                "capa") came to be commonly worn by very low-ranked samurai and other folks
                on long trips, but these were also no longer than butt-length and of a very
                specific pattern. No one else was wearing capes during the Edo period, as
                European stuff was out and the kappa was thoroughly a Japanese thing by this
                time. In a lot of Edo-Period dramas you can see travelers wearing kappa as
                part of the "official traveling clothing" of the era. Here's a photo of one:
                http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/kosode/39.htm

                Effingham
              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... Unfortunately, kappa are very much Edo period styles... and not clothing for the well-dressed samurai, sadly. A pity, really, as they do seem functional,
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 16, 2002
                  kujika@... wrote:

                  > what about a Kappa.
                  > As seen on the web page <A HREF="http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/warring5.htm">http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/warring5.htm</A>
                  > it's listed as a rain coat with or with out liner.
                  > http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/image-e/tabigarasu-dai.jpg
                  > the traveling gambler looks to me like he has a cloak.
                  > it is not the Mino that is listed above it
                  >

                  Unfortunately, kappa are very much Edo period styles... and not clothing for the well-dressed samurai, sadly. A pity, really, as they do seem
                  functional, especially in inclement weather.

                  Effingham
                • Mokurai
                  Gomen, Perhaps a stuffed/quilted haori or juban (assuming I am recalling the right term) is what this gentle needs? I usually layer my kosode for warmth, but
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 16, 2002
                    Gomen,

                    Perhaps a stuffed/quilted haori or juban (assuming I am recalling the right
                    term) is what this gentle needs? I usually layer my kosode for warmth, but
                    this is very inconvenient in the winter here since one is warm enough
                    outside and then roasting inside with the central heat and all the bodies in
                    the hall. I'd love to have a quilted jacket of some sort.

                    - mokurai (putting some more twigs on the fire...)


                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Anthony J. Bryant [mailto:ajbryant@...]
                    > Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:30 AM
                    > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] cloaks
                    >
                    >
                    > kujika@... wrote:
                    >
                    > > what about a Kappa.
                    > > As seen on the web page <A
                    > HREF="http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/warring5.htm">http:
                    > //www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/warring5.htm</A>
                    > > it's listed as a rain coat with or with out liner.
                    > > http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/image-e/tabigarasu-dai.jpg
                    > > the traveling gambler looks to me like he has a cloak.
                    > > it is not the Mino that is listed above it
                    > >
                    >
                    > Unfortunately, kappa are very much Edo period styles... and not
                    > clothing for the well-dressed samurai, sadly. A pity, really, as
                    > they do seem
                    > functional, especially in inclement weather.
                    >
                    > Effingham
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Barbara Nostrand
                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... It s properly called the kappa no he A kappa is a mythological creature. This sort of clock is characteristic of
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 16, 2002
                      Noble Cousin!

                      Greetings from Solveig!

                      >what about a Kappa.

                      It's properly called the "kappa no he" A kappa is a mythological creature.
                      This sort of "clock" is characteristic of the Edo period and is most likely
                      the result of copying European cloaks.

                      As for Japanese cloathing in general. Japanese clothing is warm all by
                      itself. You don't need to throw on European cloaks to stay warm.
                      --

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar

                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                      | the trash by my email filters. |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                      ... Hmm. Might work, but I m not sure how often such things would be encountered. I d think a couple of layers of kosode and a decent haori would cut it.
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 16, 2002
                        Mokurai wrote:

                        > Gomen,
                        >
                        > Perhaps a stuffed/quilted haori or juban (assuming I am recalling the right
                        > term) is what this gentle needs? I usually layer my kosode for warmth, but
                        > this is very inconvenient in the winter here since one is warm enough
                        > outside and then roasting inside with the central heat and all the bodies in
                        > the hall. I'd love to have a quilted jacket of some sort.

                        Hmm. Might work, but I'm not sure how often such things would be encountered.
                        I'd think a couple of layers of kosode and a decent haori would cut it.


                        Effingham
                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                        ... A kappa is *also* a cloak. Japanese has a lot of homonyms. You know that. Effingham
                        Message 11 of 17 , Dec 16, 2002
                          Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                          > Noble Cousin!
                          >
                          > Greetings from Solveig!
                          >
                          > >what about a Kappa.
                          >
                          > It's properly called the "kappa no he" A kappa is a mythological creature.

                          A kappa is *also* a cloak. Japanese has a lot of homonyms. You know that. <G>

                          Effingham
                        • Mokurai
                          ... Ok, define decent . That is to say, how heavy could the linings of haori get? Or did they use interlayers? I should think a lining of a thicker, more open
                          Message 12 of 17 , Dec 16, 2002
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Anthony J. Bryant [mailto:ajbryant@...]
                            > Mokurai wrote:
                            >
                            > > Gomen,
                            > >
                            > > Perhaps a stuffed/quilted haori or juban (assuming I am
                            > recalling the right
                            > > term) is what this gentle needs? I usually layer my kosode for
                            > warmth, but
                            > > this is very inconvenient in the winter here since one is warm enough
                            > > outside and then roasting inside with the central heat and all
                            > the bodies in
                            > > the hall. I'd love to have a quilted jacket of some sort.
                            >
                            > Hmm. Might work, but I'm not sure how often such things would be
                            > encountered.
                            > I'd think a couple of layers of kosode and a decent haori would cut it.
                            >


                            Ok, define "decent". That is to say, how heavy could the linings of haori
                            get? Or did they use interlayers? I should think a lining of a thicker, more
                            open weave silk would be quite warm. Of course, I have the added question of
                            my persona - did ecclesiastics take advantage of such garments for warmth or
                            some variant or did they make do in good ol' monkly work clothes?

                            - mokurai
                          • Anthony J. Bryant
                            ... Heavy weight and lined, I d think, would be good. During the Momoyama Period, too, you can take advantage of those wonderful imports, like wool. A monk of
                            Message 13 of 17 , Dec 16, 2002
                              Mokurai wrote:

                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: Anthony J. Bryant [mailto:ajbryant@...]
                              > > Mokurai wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > Gomen,
                              > > >
                              > > > Perhaps a stuffed/quilted haori or juban (assuming I am
                              > > recalling the right
                              > > > term) is what this gentle needs? I usually layer my kosode for
                              > > warmth, but
                              > > > this is very inconvenient in the winter here since one is warm enough
                              > > > outside and then roasting inside with the central heat and all
                              > > the bodies in
                              > > > the hall. I'd love to have a quilted jacket of some sort.
                              > >
                              > > Hmm. Might work, but I'm not sure how often such things would be
                              > > encountered.
                              > > I'd think a couple of layers of kosode and a decent haori would cut it.
                              > >
                              >
                              > Ok, define "decent". That is to say, how heavy could the linings of haori
                              > get? Or did they use interlayers? I should think a lining of a thicker, more
                              > open weave silk would be quite warm. Of course, I have the added question of
                              > my persona - did ecclesiastics take advantage of such garments for warmth or
                              > some variant or did they make do in good ol' monkly work clothes?
                              >

                              Heavy weight and lined, I'd think, would be good. During the Momoyama Period,
                              too, you can take advantage of those wonderful imports, like wool. A monk of
                              rank and bearing such as yourself might have been gifted such a thing. <G>

                              Effingham
                            • Mokurai
                              ... Hmm. Tempting. Problem is I am considering jumping backwards to Kamakura. Most of my artistic interests are coming to the fore in the 16th century, but the
                              Message 14 of 17 , Dec 16, 2002
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Anthony J. Bryant [mailto:ajbryant@...]
                                > Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 12:26 PM
                                > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] cloaks
                                >
                                >
                                > Mokurai wrote:
                                >
                                > > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > > From: Anthony J. Bryant [mailto:ajbryant@...]
                                > > > Mokurai wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > > Gomen,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Perhaps a stuffed/quilted haori or juban (assuming I am
                                > > > recalling the right
                                > > > > term) is what this gentle needs? I usually layer my kosode for
                                > > > warmth, but
                                > > > > this is very inconvenient in the winter here since one is
                                > warm enough
                                > > > > outside and then roasting inside with the central heat and all
                                > > > the bodies in
                                > > > > the hall. I'd love to have a quilted jacket of some sort.
                                > > >
                                > > > Hmm. Might work, but I'm not sure how often such things would be
                                > > > encountered.
                                > > > I'd think a couple of layers of kosode and a decent haori
                                > would cut it.
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > > Ok, define "decent". That is to say, how heavy could the
                                > linings of haori
                                > > get? Or did they use interlayers? I should think a lining of a
                                > thicker, more
                                > > open weave silk would be quite warm. Of course, I have the
                                > added question of
                                > > my persona - did ecclesiastics take advantage of such garments
                                > for warmth or
                                > > some variant or did they make do in good ol' monkly work clothes?
                                > >
                                >
                                > Heavy weight and lined, I'd think, would be good. During the
                                > Momoyama Period,
                                > too, you can take advantage of those wonderful imports, like
                                > wool.

                                Hmm. Tempting. Problem is I am considering jumping backwards to Kamakura.
                                Most of my artistic interests are coming to the fore in the 16th century,
                                but the establishment of the first zen monasteries is a fascinating time.
                                Besides, so many of my friends are doing Heian now. I'll let you know.


                                A monk of
                                > rank and bearing such as yourself might have been gifted such a thing. <G>


                                Rank? Bearing? Oh yeah, that. I forget. So busy these days managing
                                contributions from the adjunct temple estates. Who thought the Buddha path
                                would involve so much paper work?

                                - mokurai
                              • Barbara Nostrand
                                Baron Edward! Yes I know that. However, kappa no he is how the thing was how the thing was listed in the kogojiten I looked at. Aside from having lots of
                                Message 15 of 17 , Dec 16, 2002
                                  Baron Edward!

                                  Yes I know that. However, "kappa no he" is how the thing was how the
                                  thing was listed in the kogojiten I looked at. Aside from having lots
                                  of homonyms, the Japanese also love acronyms and also like to leave
                                  words out. Of course you know that as well.
                                  --

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar

                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                • Anthony J. Bryant
                                  ... Not so listed in any of mine, nor the books on clothing I have. If it were kappa no he I d expect it to be [1] a kappa-style version of a garment called
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Dec 16, 2002
                                    Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                                    > Baron Edward!
                                    >
                                    > Yes I know that. However, "kappa no he" is how the thing was how the
                                    > thing was listed in the kogojiten I looked at. Aside from having lots
                                    > of homonyms, the Japanese also love acronyms and also like to leave
                                    > words out. Of course you know that as well.

                                    Not so listed in any of mine, nor the books on clothing I have. If it were
                                    "kappa no he" I'd expect it to be [1] a kappa-style version of a garment
                                    called a he (witness "hoeki no hô" being a hoeki-style hô) but there is no
                                    such garment called "he" -- nor can I find any such listing for one; or [2]
                                    a *part* of a kappa, the part being the "he" -- but again, I can't find what
                                    that part would be.

                                    Are you sure it wasn't "kappa no e" as in "picture of a capa"? It's weird
                                    (and kinda me), but the only thing I think of when I see "kappa no he" is
                                    "kappa farts" <GG>

                                    Effingham
                                  • Douglas Shannon
                                    From: Anthony J. Bryant ... I didn t say I was well read... ... Cool... Now how do I make one? ... That s why I m checking here... I
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Dec 17, 2002
                                      From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                                      >Douglas Shannon wrote:
                                      >>I'm currently reading a series of books that while written in modern
                                      >>times,
                                      >>are set just post period in and around Edo. The current book is taking
                                      >>place
                                      >>in the begining of winter and the author keeps mentioning that the
                                      >>characters are wearing cloaks.
                                      >>
                                      >>The primary character is the "shogun's sosakan-sama" and therefore a
                                      >>relatively well to-do samurai beaurocrat; so I can't picture that he would
                                      >>be wearing the grass rain cape of a commoner...

                                      >Oy. Rowland. Ummmm.... Yeah.

                                      I didn't say I was well read...

                                      >Well, when it's snowing or raining, he would. It isn't the cape of a
                                      >commoner.
                                      >It's a *rain* cape. Period. Everyone wore them.

                                      Cool...
                                      Now how do I make one?

                                      >As to exactly what Rowland would be talking about, I couldn't tell ya...

                                      That's why I'm checking here...
                                      I was far from sure that she is historically accurate...

                                      >>This has some promise. Does anyone know how it would have been
                                      >>constructed?

                                      >It's 8/9ths of a full circle. It's made from eight equal triangles; if
                                      >there were a ninth, it'd be a full circle. The usually striped pattern of
                                      >the cloth is what makes them look so striking.

                                      Hrmmm... would that be using a 16" to 20" based triangle?

                                      >Of course, you wouldn't be making one to wear at an event, as it's not a
                                      >period garment. Ahem.

                                      I'm not now...
                                      Actually, I was pretty sure it would be a post-period garment and therefore
                                      not suitable for SCA perposes, but I had to find out what the author had in
                                      mind so that I could visualize the characters better.

                                      >Effingham

                                      Thanks for the guidance.


                                      Silvester Burchardt
                                      East Kingdom

                                      m.k.a. Douglas Shannon

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