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Re: [SCA-JML] Specific name questions

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  • Anthony J. Bryant
    ... Only if you were an Elephant Boy. It was common to attach a third kanji to yobina, and in those cases the rou was sometimes dropped. Note, however,
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 30, 2002
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      Ii Saburou wrote:

      > On Sat, 30 Nov 2002, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:
      >
      > > *Ôba is indeed the family name. The *Ôba were a family descended from the
      > > Taira. Kagechika's bio is on my CD Iwanami Nihonshi Jiten:
      > >
      > > "?-1180. Samurai of the Cloistered Government Period. One of the Kamakura
      > > partisans of the Kanmu Heishi. Based in the *Ôba-mirya of Sagami Province. On
      >
      > > the occasion of the Hôgen and Heiji Insurrections he was affiliated with
      > > Minamoto no Yoshitomo, but in the time of the administration of the Heishi
      > > he was named the Heishi's overseer of the Eastern Provinces, he organized
      > > the punitive force against Minamoto no Yoshitomo; ultimately he was made a
      > > prisoner and executed."
      > >
      > > As with many (most) surnames of warriors of the period, it derived from
      > > their estate. Of course, "Heida" is a likely mistranscription of "Heita"
      > > which is short for "Heitarô". Likewise, "Shoji" is short for "Shojirô."
      > > Clearly, these are yobina.
      >
      > Oh! That makes sense! I'll have to remember that one (so would I be
      > Sabu? ;)
      >

      Only if you were an Elephant Boy. <G>

      It was common to attach a third kanji to yobina, and in those cases the "rou" was
      sometimes dropped. Note, however, that "Ryûtarô" is a different name than "Ryûta"
      -- it's not a nickname, it's a variant name. Like the difference, perhaps,
      between "Jonathan" and "John" as given on baptismal certs.

      >
      > Now the question comes in to play: when do you consider a name to be a
      > name rather than just descriptive? For instance, is Kiso considered
      > Yoshinaka's surname or simply a description (the Yoshinaka of Kiso).
      >

      I'd say once it's been in use for two or three generations it's set. Yoshinaka,
      of course, didn't have the luxury of passing Kiso down, or it might well have
      become another branch of the Minamoto as so many other names did.

      >
      > Of course, the same problem occurs in Europe. I guess for naming purposes
      > it doesn't entirely matter, except that you can have multiple 'family'
      > names, it appears (like all of the Shibuya during the Nambokuchô Era).

      Yuppers.


      Effingham
    • Barbara Nostrand
      Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! ... One example which springs to mind is Genta which drops the rou. We pretty much only see this shortening of names to
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 1, 2002
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        Baron Edward!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        >It was common to attach a third kanji to yobina, and in those cases
        >the "rou" was
        >sometimes dropped. Note, however, that "Ryûtarô" is a different name
        >than "Ryûta"
        >-- it's not a nickname, it's a variant name. Like the difference, perhaps,
        >between "Jonathan" and "John" as given on baptismal certs.

        One example which springs to mind is Genta which drops the rou. We pretty
        much only see this shortening of names to two knaji and not to a single kanji.
        Yes, I have a copy of "Ue wo muita". For a variety of reasons, I believe that
        the -rou suffix was originally titular. However, it has long ago lost its
        function and is now sort of an appendix on these names.
        --

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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      • Barbara Nostrand
        Baron Edward! SIGH ** I ve been having trouble with my email client again. Language detection appears to be seriously broken, so I have switched my default to
        Message 3 of 26 , Dec 1, 2002
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          Baron Edward!

          SIGH ** I've been having trouble with my email client again. Language
          detection appears to be seriously broken, so I have switched my default
          to one of my Japanese fonts. The problem is that it lacks diacriticals
          and a number of other fun features. However, the people in Heike
          Monogatari appear to be the same people.
          --

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
          | the trash by my email filters. |
          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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