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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Title Help

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  • Don Luby
    ... Well, while I m not sure how it could / should be used in other contexts, we ve been using the term sempai to refer to the senior squire in our
    Message 1 of 28 , Nov 10, 2002
      On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Susan and Frank Downs wrote:

      > Greetings!
      >
      > What about Kohei, Sempai, Sensei?  Is Sensei reserved for Laurels and
      > Pelicans?

      Well, while I'm not sure how it could / should be used in other
      contexts, we've been using the term 'sempai' to refer to the senior
      squire in our household.

      > --
      > Takenoshita Naro
      > Frank Downs


      Sir Koredono
      (former sempai,
      since promomted (?))

      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no Koredono
      djl@... Yama-kaminari-ryu
      Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands, AEthelmearc
    • Ii Saburou
      ... That s generally the modern usage, except that sempai would be any squire senior to you (in this example) according to modern usage. However, customs
      Message 2 of 28 , Nov 10, 2002
        On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Don Luby wrote:

        > > Greetings!
        > >
        > > What about Kohei, Sempai, Sensei?  Is Sensei reserved for Laurels and
        > > Pelicans?
        >
        > Well, while I'm not sure how it could / should be used in other
        > contexts, we've been using the term 'sempai' to refer to the senior
        > squire in our household.
        >
        That's generally the modern usage, except that 'sempai' would be any
        squire senior to you (in this example) according to modern usage.
        However, customs vary according to house and school.

        -Ii
      • lord_aharon_of_talkon
        ... technically) ... were ... disciple ... Hmm...so I could technically use deshi and how about danna (sensei just reminds me of Karate Kid for some
        Message 3 of 28 , Nov 14, 2002
          > Unfortunately, any titles suggested would be culturally (and
          technically)
          > inaccurate. Japan did not, of course, have a guild structure. You
          were
          > either an apprentice (deshi, a term which has more in common with
          "disciple"
          > than simple student) to your master (sensei, danna, meijin, oyabun,
          > whathaveyou), or you were your own master.

          Hmm...so I could technically use deshi and how about danna (sensei
          just reminds me of Karate Kid for some reason)...is there something
          that perhaps is in between? Or do you have other suggestions of names
          to show a progression of an artist? Or is this too difficult to ask?

          Side note, what does Hakase mean? Doctor, right? I'm trying to run
          through various ideas.

          --Artemisia
        • Ii Saburou
          ... The problem is, I don t think they really kept track of things quite that way. Hiraizumi-dono--what about the use of -chou for the head of a group? Or
          Message 4 of 28 , Nov 14, 2002
            On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, lord_aharon_of_talkon wrote:

            > Hmm...so I could technically use deshi and how about danna (sensei
            > just reminds me of Karate Kid for some reason)...is there something
            > that perhaps is in between? Or do you have other suggestions of names
            > to show a progression of an artist? Or is this too difficult to ask?

            The problem is, I don't think they really kept track of things quite that
            way.

            Hiraizumi-dono--what about the use of '-chou' for the head of a group? Or
            'kashira'?

            'Okashira' is often used modernly to refer to a leader of a group by one
            of its members--kind of like saying 'Boss'. '-chou' is also used today as
            'head of'. So a 'Sonchou' is a village headman ('Son' = Village), while,
            modernly, a 'Shachou' is the head of a company while 'Gakuchou' is the
            principal of a school.

            I find 'Osa' as 'head'; 'kaichou' as head of a society'; 'kumichou' as a
            yakuza boss; 'Chouchou' as townheadman.

            Just a thought that struck me before my morning caffeine.

            -Ii
          • Barbara Nostrand
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The terms you seek pretty much do not exist. ... Hakase is the modern word associated with a doctoral degree. As for
            Message 5 of 28 , Nov 15, 2002
              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              >Hmm...so I could technically use deshi and how about danna (sensei
              >just reminds me of Karate Kid for some reason)...is there something
              >that perhaps is in between? Or do you have other suggestions of names
              >to show a progression of an artist? Or is this too difficult to ask?

              The terms you seek pretty much do not exist.

              >Side note, what does Hakase mean? Doctor, right? I'm trying to run
              >through various ideas.

              Hakase is the modern word associated with a doctoral degree.

              As for words for head of things. Yest those do exist. -cho is pretty
              popular these days.

              There are words -nokami, &c. associated with offices within departments &c
              and mistries. But, these are not free guild rankings..
              --

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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              | the trash by my email filters. |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            • Bill Fornshell
              Hi, The Tea Schools use Iemoto as the term for Head of the Family or School and have names for the different levels of skill or certificates. This term it is
              Message 6 of 28 , Nov 15, 2002
                Hi, The Tea Schools use Iemoto as the term for Head
                of the Family or School and have names for the
                different levels of skill or certificates. This term
                it is also used for "Head Of" for some of the other
                traditional Arts. Some of the Clay Households have a
                term to refer to the current "Head Of". The Raku
                Family they used the word "Kichizaemon", but this
                started with the 4th generation in 1656 and I have
                know idea what the word means. In a video tape about
                Kichizaemon 15 he talks about having a firing team of
                10 helping him and that most of these men came from
                families that had done this for the Raku family for
                generations. Are there names or ranking for what they
                do?? I know that other clay households had different
                names that each new "Head Of" used but those names are
                lost in one of my many books somewhere. I think the
                original question had to do with a rank structure that
                could be used for different levels of a SCA pottery
                group. Bill

                --- Barbara Nostrand <nostrand@...> wrote:
                > Noble Cousin!
                >
                > Greetings from Solveig!
                >
                > >Hmm...so I could technically use deshi and how
                > about danna (sensei
                > >just reminds me of Karate Kid for some reason)...is
                > there something
                > >that perhaps is in between? Or do you have other
                > suggestions of names
                > >to show a progression of an artist? Or is this too
                > difficult to ask?
                >
                > The terms you seek pretty much do not exist.
                >
                > >Side note, what does Hakase mean? Doctor, right?
                > I'm trying to run
                > >through various ideas.
                >
                > Hakase is the modern word associated with a doctoral
                > degree.
                >
                > As for words for head of things. Yest those do
                > exist. -cho is pretty
                > popular these days.
                >
                > There are words -nokami, &c. associated with
                > offices within departments &c
                > and mistries. But, these are not free guild
                > rankings..
                > --
                >
                > Your Humble Servant
                > Solveig Throndardottir
                > Amateur Scholar
                >
                >
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig
                > Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia
                > Statis Mentis Est |
                > | mailto:nostrand@... |
                > mailto:bnostran@... |
                >
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                > | Note. Many popular "free" email services are
                > automatically routed to |
                > | the trash by my email filters.
                > |
                >
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                >


                =====
                Bill Fornshell
                Founder and President
                Cold Mountain Chanoyu
                (Tea School for the New Millennium)
                School of One
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ColdMtnChado

                __________________________________________________
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              • Barbara Nostrand
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The iemoto system was instituted during the Tokugawa period to regulate art forms. The iemoto of the various schools
                Message 7 of 28 , Nov 15, 2002
                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig! The iemoto system was instituted
                  during the Tokugawa period to regulate art forms. The
                  iemoto of the various "schools issue certificates generically
                  called menjo (licenses) to people granting them permission to
                  do various things. Eventually, a member of one of these schools
                  may receive menjo allowing them to assume the family kamon,
                  granting them a gago (arts name), allowing them to teach in
                  various capacities, &c.

                  Names like Kichizaemon are hereditary names. These are quite
                  common in Japanese arts as well. For example, there have been
                  many Danjirou in kabuki and the individual Danjirou are numbered.
                  This parallels the situation in the tea schools where the various
                  Sen Shoshitsu (Urasenke) are numbered. They also have individual
                  names as tea masters. For example, Sen Ho'unsai again of the
                  Urasenke. As Sen Shoshitsu, a numeric designation is applied while
                  Sen Ho'unsai is a unique designation.

                  Kichizaemon is an interesting form. The -zaemon suffix is found in
                  quite a few names of artisans these days. Originally, -zaemon was
                  a suffix used to form the titles of imperialf palace gate guards
                  and is originally a titular form. Over time, these designations
                  were handed out at lower and lower levels until it eventually
                  became pretty much a free form in constructing yobina. Today it
                  has an old-timey feel which is one of the reasons that you see it
                  still being used by artisans.

                  As I have mentioned several times, the -zaemon (left gate guards)
                  and -uemon (right gate guards) titles have several ranks and can
                  be used for a ranking system. As these were originally appointive,
                  I prefer that they be given out by the crown and have adapted them
                  for levels of awards in the Society. The basic form is zaemon-no<level>.
                  Examples of the form <prototheme>zaemon such as Kichizaemon are fully
                  nominal and nature and are not titular.

                  --

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                • Barbara Nostrand
                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Please send me your phone number and when I can call you. -- Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur Scholar
                  Message 8 of 28 , Nov 15, 2002
                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig! Please send me your phone number and when I can
                    call you.
                    --

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                    | the trash by my email filters. |
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                  • Barbara Nostrand
                    Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! In ancient Japan, there was a system of monopoly corporations, but these were not autonomous guilds. Commercial
                    Message 9 of 28 , Nov 16, 2002
                      Noble Cousins!

                      Greetings from Solveig! In ancient Japan, there was a system of
                      monopoly corporations, but these were not autonomous guilds.
                      Commercial enterprises only became really important in the
                      sixteenth century, and then they were organized more like
                      corporations. In fact, some Japanese enterprises trace their
                      ancestry to the sixteenth century.

                      The iemoto system of today was organized pretty much in the
                      seventeenth century. Under the iemoto system, people are
                      granted menjo (licenses) which allow them to do various things.
                      Some systems organize these in a count down then count up
                      system similar to martial arts, while others issue menjo
                      which specify a named collection of practices. These systems
                      are primarily designed for amateurs. Professionals generally
                      follow a path of instruction in which they are progressively
                      admitted into different stages of the craft. If they are
                      studying individually with a master who does not have a system
                      of cadet schools, then there are usually no ranks, titles, or
                      even much in the way of a menjo except for maybe a final one
                      where the master recognizes their student. For example, haiku
                      is organized in a semi-professional system where poetry circles
                      are organized by poetry masters, but there are no ranks or menjo.
                      Tea is taught by licensed teachers and has a system of named
                      menjo. Incense ceremony and calligraphy often have a system of
                      numerical ranks similar to martial arts. The kimono wearing school
                      with which I am familiar, has a course of study based on articles
                      of clothing and the people who wear them. Note. Many people are
                      inept at putting on kimono, so there are professionals who come
                      to your house to dress you.
                      --

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar

                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                      | the trash by my email filters. |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    • lord_aharon_of_talkon
                      ... Bill, if you could peek through your books and find the names, I would greatily appreciate it. I m not 100% sure if I SHOULD have a rank and file system
                      Message 10 of 28 , Nov 17, 2002
                        --- In sca-jml@y..., Bill Fornshell <bfornshell@y...> wrote:
                        > Hi, The Tea Schools use Iemoto as the term for Head
                        > of the Family or School and have names for the
                        > different levels of skill or certificates. This term
                        > it is also used for "Head Of" for some of the other
                        > traditional Arts.

                        Bill, if you could peek through your books and find the names, I would
                        greatily appreciate it. I'm not 100% sure if I SHOULD have a rank and
                        file system in the guild or not, but I'd definitly need names if I do
                        decide.

                        And after all that has been said, I do realize there were no period
                        titles, but if I can come up with something reasonable, a succession
                        which could be as simple as colors for the different levels (red,
                        blue, purple, whatever) or animals (like the chinese calanders) or
                        WHATEVR...I just would like some sort of name that people could
                        remember and identify with.

                        Thanks again to everyone! This has been very interesting!

                        --Artemisia
                      • Barbara Nostrand
                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The way things are done in tea is to divide up the collection of temae into groups, the groups are sequenced, and menjo
                        Message 11 of 28 , Nov 20, 2002
                          Noble Cousin!

                          Greetings from Solveig!

                          The way things are done in tea is to divide up the collection of temae
                          into groups, the groups are sequenced, and menjo are awarded to the groups.
                          The way that calligraphy works is a simple numerical ranking system based
                          on proficiency. Please pick one or the other approach. If you are simply
                          grading proficiency, then just use numbers with the basic count down for
                          the kyuu and count up for the dan.

                          In pottery, you can come up with graded ranks for clay crumbling, mud
                          mixing, &c. Later on you can have a rank for basic hand building, &c.
                          --

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar

                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                          | the trash by my email filters. |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        • Horatius at the Bridge
                          A question for a scroll I m helping with: In a japanese title, if a person were given a title that connected him to a place, how would it be phrased? Would it
                          Message 12 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
                            A question for a scroll I'm helping with:

                            In a japanese title, if a person were given a title that connected him to a
                            place, how would it be phrased? Would it come out as Smith John no
                            Adachigahara no defender no Southern Mountians? (English version being John
                            smith of Adachigahara, Defender of the Southern Mountians) Or would it be
                            Defender no southern mountians no John Smith no Adachigahara? How would the
                            structure of such a title come out?


                            Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into something that is
                            nothing, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.
                            Albert Einstein
                          • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                            On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:55:02 -0600, Horatius at the Bridge ... (note: I m using Nanzan as southern mountains. Probably need something better than no-kami ,
                            Message 13 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
                              On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:55:02 -0600, Horatius at the Bridge
                              <horatius314@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > A question for a scroll I'm helping with:
                              >
                              > In a japanese title, if a person were given a title that connected him to a
                              > place, how would it be phrased? Would it come out as Smith John no
                              > Adachigahara no defender no Southern Mountians? (English version being John
                              > smith of Adachigahara, Defender of the Southern Mountians) Or would it be
                              > Defender no southern mountians no John Smith no Adachigahara? How would the
                              > structure of such a title come out?
                              (note: I'm using 'Nanzan' as southern mountains. Probably need
                              something better than 'no-kami', but it seems appropriate as the
                              character is 'mamoru', to defend, even though it refers to a governor
                              and would be more appropriate to a baron)

                              Smith Nanzan no kami John
                              or
                              Nanzan no kami John
                              Check out names like:
                              Kami-Izumi Ise no Kami (Fujiwara no) Hidetsuna


                              However, often you would just be referred to by your title, like:
                              'Nanzan no kami'

                              Hmmm... I wonder if 'Shugo' would be better? 'Nanzan on Shugo'? I
                              ran across it in 'Shugo Daisen Kokuto Kyo', and checked it out.
                              Modernly it seems to refer to a defense, but I'm not sure if it was
                              used that way in period.

                              -Ii.

                              PS: Completely unrelated, but while doing some linquistic fact
                              checking I ran across an interesting expression:
                              'Satsuma no Kami' -- it refers to travelling while deliberately not
                              paying a fare. I would guess it probably goes back to Edo period,
                              when you think of the history of Satsuma. The kanji are the same as
                              'Governor of Satsuma'.
                            • Ellen Davis
                              No does indicate possession/belonging, but in the REVERSE order of your examples...thus, A no B translates to A s B , not B s A . So, something that
                              Message 14 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
                                "No" does indicate possession/belonging, but in the REVERSE order of your
                                examples...thus, "A no B" translates to "A's B", not "B's A".

                                So, something that might work for you would be (words in <angle brackets>
                                should be translated into Japanese for best effect):

                                <Southern Mountains> no <Defender> Adachigahara no Smith John -> John Smith
                                of Adachigahara, Defender of the Southern Mountains
                                Adachigahara no <Southern Mountains> no <Defender> Smith John -> John Smith,
                                Defender of Adachigahara's Southern Mountains

                                (On a tangentially related note, I have a book on order that is all about
                                the kabane ranking system-- hopefully that will give some more insight into
                                titles, although I know Solveig covers some of it in her great book.)

                                -Aine

                                "Killing is wrong. And bad. There should be a new, stronger word for
                                killing. Like 'badwrong', or 'badong'. Yes-- killing is 'badong'. From this
                                moment, I will stand for the opposite of killing: 'gnodab'." -- The Chosen
                                One, "Kung Pow!: Enter the Fist"


                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Horatius at the Bridge [mailto:horatius314@...]
                                > Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 8:55 PM
                                > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [SCA-JML] Title Help
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > A question for a scroll I'm helping with:
                                >
                                > In a japanese title, if a person were given a title that
                                > connected him to a
                                > place, how would it be phrased? Would it come out as Smith John no
                                > Adachigahara no defender no Southern Mountians? (English
                                > version being John
                                > smith of Adachigahara, Defender of the Southern Mountians) Or
                                > would it be
                                > Defender no southern mountians no John Smith no Adachigahara?
                                > How would the
                                > structure of such a title come out?
                                >
                                >
                                > Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into
                                > something that is nothing, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.
                                >
                                > Albert Einstein
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                              • Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                is there anyone out there who is willing to make full armor, padded, laced, strapped, and all from head to toe from 530? I had a man who was willing to do it,
                                Message 15 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
                                  is there anyone out there who is willing to make full armor, padded, laced,
                                  strapped, and all from head to toe from 530? I had a man who was willing to
                                  do it, but he fell through. so if anyone can help me it would be much
                                  appreciated.
                                • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                  On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:00:49 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo ... What are you looking for? Are you looking for display or SCA armour? Do you need an
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
                                    On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:00:49 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                    <desuave_cristo@...> wrote:
                                    > is there anyone out there who is willing to make full armor, padded, laced,
                                    > strapped, and all from head to toe from 530? I had a man who was willing to
                                    > do it, but he fell through. so if anyone can help me it would be much
                                    > appreciated.


                                    What are you looking for? Are you looking for display or SCA armour?
                                    Do you need an entire kit? A Helmet? What timeframe are you looking
                                    at? What kind of armour?

                                    All sorts of questions people are going to need to know.

                                    -Ii
                                  • Solveig
                                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! I m pretty sure that the sort of titles that you are looking for are slotted in the middle of the name before tha nanori.
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
                                      Noble Cousin!

                                      Greetings from Solveig! I'm pretty sure that the sort of titles that
                                      you are looking
                                      for are slotted in the middle of the name before tha nanori.

                                      As for -nokami. I think that we should vind out what sort of rank is intended.
                                      There are several grades available below -nokami. Further, we really should
                                      know the time period intended. There are some rather interesting ancient
                                      titles for local magnates available such as the ones that show up in the Tale
                                      of the Bamboo Cutter.

                                      Shugo is a rather specific title for military governors belonging to
                                      the bakufu.
                                      These should only be used for baronial rank as these offices were in full force
                                      through the end of period. (Takeda Shingen was a shugo.) If this is
                                      scroll is for
                                      more of a courtesy title, then the ancient court titles are more approrpiate
                                      as they had become rather widely appropriated by the sixteenth century.
                                      --

                                      Your Humble Servant
                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Amateur Scholar

                                      +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                      +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to the |
                                      | trash by my email filters. |
                                      +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    • michael A
                                      i may well be able to help you on this, but as Ii right says, more details would be very helpful. --kiyohara ...
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
                                        i may well be able to help you on this, but as Ii
                                        right says, more details would be very helpful.
                                        --kiyohara

                                        --- "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                                        <tatsushu@...> wrote:

                                        >
                                        > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:00:49 -0500, Admiral DeSuave
                                        > Alimara Cristo
                                        > <desuave_cristo@...> wrote:
                                        > > is there anyone out there who is willing to make
                                        > full armor, padded, laced,
                                        > > strapped, and all from head to toe from 530? I had
                                        > a man who was willing to
                                        > > do it, but he fell through. so if anyone can help
                                        > me it would be much
                                        > > appreciated.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > What are you looking for? Are you looking for
                                        > display or SCA armour?
                                        > Do you need an entire kit? A Helmet? What
                                        > timeframe are you looking
                                        > at? What kind of armour?
                                        >
                                        > All sorts of questions people are going to need to
                                        > know.
                                        >
                                        > -Ii
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                                      • Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                        Okay, lemme try and answer all these questions to the best of my abilities, LOL. Yes, I need an entire kit. Helmet included, and mempo. This WILL be for SCA
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
                                          Okay, lemme try and answer all these questions to the best of my abilities,
                                          LOL. Yes, I need an entire kit. Helmet included, and mempo. This WILL be for
                                          SCA FIGHTING. As far as century, if ANYONE can maybe show me some
                                          generalized pictures of some of the centuries It would be greatly
                                          appreciated. Or even if you showed me a pic of your armor or armor from your
                                          favorite time period that would be greatly appreciated. The man who i was
                                          hoping was going to make it for me is a good friend. He was going to make
                                          the entire kit including the helmet, mempo, and full armor, padded and
                                          strapped for $530. And I see you two are interested, so please help me out
                                          so I can help you guys out. And In advance, I thank you through and through!
                                          I TRUELY wish to fight this coming pennsic and I need my armor so i can (A)
                                          practice and (B) get authorized. Thank you for all the help i know you will
                                          be giving me in advanced!

                                          Eric.

                                          >From: "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)" <tatsushu@...>
                                          >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                          >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                          >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Armour (was: Title Help)
                                          >Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:16:48 -0500
                                          >
                                          >On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:00:49 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                          ><desuave_cristo@...> wrote:
                                          > > is there anyone out there who is willing to make full armor, padded,
                                          >laced,
                                          > > strapped, and all from head to toe from 530? I had a man who was willing
                                          >to
                                          > > do it, but he fell through. so if anyone can help me it would be much
                                          > > appreciated.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >What are you looking for? Are you looking for display or SCA armour?
                                          >Do you need an entire kit? A Helmet? What timeframe are you looking
                                          >at? What kind of armour?
                                          >
                                          >All sorts of questions people are going to need to know.
                                          >
                                          >-Ii
                                        • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                          On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:39:59 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo ... Have you checked out http://www.sengokudaimyo.com? That has an entire section on armour
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
                                            On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:39:59 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                            <desuave_cristo@...> wrote:

                                            > appreciated. Or even if you showed me a pic of your armor or armor from your
                                            > favorite time period that would be greatly appreciated. The man who i was

                                            Have you checked out http://www.sengokudaimyo.com? That has an entire
                                            section on armour and how to make it.

                                            Not to dash your hopes, but I'd be surprised if you can get a full,
                                            good kit for $530 without it being a friend. As one person mentioned,
                                            helms alone can run hundreds of dollars. If you are willing to put
                                            time into some of the pieces, you can probably do a lot of it
                                            yourself.

                                            For example, the kote, suneate, and haidate can all be done out of
                                            fabric with some minimal work on making it look right; you can
                                            probably use wood or light pieces of metal that can be easily worked
                                            for the metal bits.

                                            The nodowa might be difficult, but you should be able to find a
                                            low-price gorget that you could then do-up with stuff to look like the
                                            right dangly bits.

                                            Unless you can do it yourself, you will probably want to buy low
                                            profile leg and elbow cowters to go under it all, since most of the
                                            stuff I've talked about isn't there for protection.

                                            Gauntlets will be a must if you plan to fight in a Japanese style (no
                                            basket hilt, two handed weapons, etc.). Even without it, you should
                                            have demi-gauntlets at a minimum to protect the wrist.

                                            For the 'do', or body armour, I can see several choices. Check out
                                            Hiraizumi-dono's site and look through there. I can think of several
                                            'cheats' that could be done: using a European breastplate and then
                                            mocking it up with lames to do a 'nanban-do' could be really cool if
                                            done right. A Heian period 'o-yoroi' could have much of it covered
                                            with leather or fabric so that you could have an actual solid piece
                                            underneath, and just do the lacing for the kusazuri, sode, and other
                                            bits of furniture.

                                            For a helmet, I know I've talked with a friend about taking a spun-top
                                            and adding the lames to form the shikoro--or at least something that
                                            looks like one. Add a crest and it would be passable, if not perfect.

                                            Another option is to go ahead and get a lot of low-profile stuff and
                                            do a 'street clothes' style of hiding the armour, with loose hakama
                                            and hitatare, or something similar.

                                            Just ideas.


                                            -Ii
                                          • Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                            Woo! My boy just hit me back and he s willing to do the full kit customized, strapped , padded, everything i ask for $530. thank you for all your searching,
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
                                              Woo! My boy just hit me back and he's willing to do the full kit customized,
                                              strapped , padded, everything i ask for $530. thank you for all your
                                              searching, writing, and help anyway.

                                              Eric.

                                              >From: "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)" <tatsushu@...>
                                              >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                              >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                              >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Armour (was: Title Help)
                                              >Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:11:29 -0500
                                              >
                                              >On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:39:59 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                              ><desuave_cristo@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > appreciated. Or even if you showed me a pic of your armor or armor from
                                              >your
                                              > > favorite time period that would be greatly appreciated. The man who i
                                              >was
                                              >
                                              >Have you checked out http://www.sengokudaimyo.com? That has an entire
                                              >section on armour and how to make it.
                                              >
                                              >Not to dash your hopes, but I'd be surprised if you can get a full,
                                              >good kit for $530 without it being a friend. As one person mentioned,
                                              >helms alone can run hundreds of dollars. If you are willing to put
                                              >time into some of the pieces, you can probably do a lot of it
                                              >yourself.
                                              >
                                              >For example, the kote, suneate, and haidate can all be done out of
                                              >fabric with some minimal work on making it look right; you can
                                              >probably use wood or light pieces of metal that can be easily worked
                                              >for the metal bits.
                                              >
                                              >The nodowa might be difficult, but you should be able to find a
                                              >low-price gorget that you could then do-up with stuff to look like the
                                              >right dangly bits.
                                              >
                                              >Unless you can do it yourself, you will probably want to buy low
                                              >profile leg and elbow cowters to go under it all, since most of the
                                              >stuff I've talked about isn't there for protection.
                                              >
                                              >Gauntlets will be a must if you plan to fight in a Japanese style (no
                                              >basket hilt, two handed weapons, etc.). Even without it, you should
                                              >have demi-gauntlets at a minimum to protect the wrist.
                                              >
                                              >For the 'do', or <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px
                                              >double;'
                                              >href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=24&k=body%20armour"
                                              >onmouseover="window.status='body armour'; return true;"
                                              >onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">body armour</a>, I can see
                                              >several choices. Check out
                                              >Hiraizumi-dono's site and look through there. I can think of several
                                              >'cheats' that could be done: using a European breastplate and then
                                              >mocking it up with lames to do a 'nanban-do' could be really cool if
                                              >done right. A Heian period 'o-yoroi' could have much of it covered
                                              >with leather or fabric so that you could have an actual solid piece
                                              >underneath, and just do the lacing for the kusazuri, sode, and other
                                              >bits of furniture.
                                              >
                                              >For a helmet, I know I've talked with a friend about taking a spun-top
                                              >and adding the lames to form the shikoro--or at least something that
                                              >looks like one. Add a crest and it would be passable, if not perfect.
                                              >
                                              >Another option is to go ahead and get a lot of low-profile stuff and
                                              >do a 'street clothes' style of hiding the armour, with loose hakama
                                              >and hitatare, or something similar.
                                              >
                                              >Just ideas.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >-Ii
                                            • Horatius at the Bridge
                                              Would it be appropriate to modify traditional sushi to reflect local ingredients? I ve seen the various incarnations of modern sushi available at the local
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Feb 25, 2005
                                                Would it be appropriate to modify traditional sushi to reflect local
                                                ingredients?

                                                I've seen the various incarnations of modern sushi available at the local
                                                deli and Japanese resturaunts. I've even seen 'sushi' (please note the quote
                                                marks) variants such as the Arkansas roll, the Boston roll and the
                                                all-pervasive California roll. I've even seen and eaten the rather tasty
                                                North Dakota roll. I understand these are modern versions. But were there
                                                local interpretations of sushi that could be served in period?


                                                Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into something that is
                                                nothing, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.
                                                Albert Einstein
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