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Re: [SCA-JML] de-lurking and a question

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  • Rosemary Norwood
    A very belated welcome to the list! St FLorian de la Rivire is my home barony - but I am a long way from home here in the Shire of Eisental in the Kingdom of
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 10, 2002
      A very belated welcome to the list! St FLorian de la Rivire is my home
      barony - but I am a long way from home here in the Shire of Eisental in
      the Kingdom of the East (Eastern Pennsylvania).

      Eventually Yomada-dono and myself plan to move our small family back to
      your part of the world - it will be nice to have other Japanese personas
      to commune with.

      I look forward to your participation in the list!

      Yomada no Tatsutoshime


      On Wed, Oct 23, 2002 at 10:04:45PM +1000,
      Hachiman wrote: > Konbanwa!
      >
      >
      > Mundanely, I am located in Brisbane, Australia, where I attend university
      > and study Psychology. I am a member of the Barony of St Florian de la
      > Rivi?re (also located in Brisbane) and, should the registration of my
      > Japanese persona go through, I'll be the only Nihonjin in the Barony (until
      > my lady registers her Japanese persona!).
    • Ii Saburou
      ... But, you re in Eisental--did you make it to Sword and the Chrysanthemum? Forgive me if we met there as I am terrible about connecting online persons with
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 10, 2002
        On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Rosemary Norwood wrote:

        > Eventually Yomada-dono and myself plan to move our small family back to
        > your part of the world - it will be nice to have other Japanese personas
        > to commune with.

        But, you're in Eisental--did you make it to Sword and the Chrysanthemum?
        Forgive me if we met there as I am terrible about connecting online
        persons with real life people.

        Anyway, you have a great group of Japanese personae in the area. Talk to
        your seneschal about Asian Night if you aren't already participating.

        -Ii
      • Jamie Norwood
        ... We were there for most of the day, though we did leave before the feasts, and we sadly never got to formally meet you, something I much hoped I would get
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 10, 2002
          On Sun, Nov 10, 2002 at 01:41:56PM -0900, Ii Saburou wrote:
          > > Eventually Yomada-dono and myself plan to move our small family back to
          > > your part of the world - it will be nice to have other Japanese personas
          > > to commune with.
          >
          > But, you're in Eisental--did you make it to Sword and the Chrysanthemum?
          > Forgive me if we met there as I am terrible about connecting online
          > persons with real life people.

          We were there for most of the day, though we did leave before the feasts,
          and we sadly never got to formally meet you, something I much hoped I
          would get to do. I did get to meet Kuji-sensei, though, who taught me
          the proper uses of a length of rope. ;) We had a blast, but our life is
          rather stressful and we tired early. :( If you were near the gate in the
          early afternoon, my darling wife was helping to corral the midgets, and I
          was the one in the very red hitatare. Yes, I know, red isn't a good color
          for a guy, but alas, I didn't know that when I made the garb. I've promised
          to have more masculine garb by the next event we go to!

          > Anyway, you have a great group of Japanese personae in the area. Talk to
          > your seneschal about Asian Night if you aren't already participating.

          We've been there many a time, Mokurai-dono throws a good gathering. We try
          to get there when we can, but it has been a painfully long time. Maybe this
          month will work out better!

          > -Ii

          Yamada no Mitsuyoshi

          Jamie
        • Ii Saburou
          ... ?? Red is fine. Having a red and white Miko* outfit might not be so good, but I have seen plenty of red hakama. Why would you say it is not masculine? I
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 10, 2002
            On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Jamie Norwood wrote:

            > was the one in the very red hitatare. Yes, I know, red isn't a good color
            > for a guy, but alas, I didn't know that when I made the garb. I've promised
            > to have more masculine garb by the next event we go to!

            ?? Red is fine. Having a red and white Miko* outfit might not be so good,
            but I have seen plenty of red hakama. Why would you say it is not
            masculine?

            I know that modern comic books do not indicate period practice, but it is
            interesting to note that a modern comic book--Inuyasha--has a very male
            lead hero who has a red hakama and white kosode. What this shows is that
            modern Japanese do not necessarily see a red-white combination as only
            feminine. I would argue that there is no evidence that such a bias
            existed in period.

            Actually, I find it interesting some of the conclusions that are drawn
            about colors in Japan; e.g. Because white is associated with death, white
            must not be a good color to wear unless you are going to a funeral.

            First of all, white is found in many different things in Japan. Black is
            associated with death in Western culture--does that put a stigma on black
            as a color?

            Color is important in court garb and in the layers of Heian noblewomen.
            Other 'work clothes' no doubt had specific colors, but for the most part
            people seem to have worn what they liked. There is a tremendous amount of
            variation in the clothing in period illustrations, however.


            -Ii

            *Miko = shinto priestess. Their typical regalia is white kimono (not sure
            what kind) with red hakama.
          • Jamie Norwood
            ... I was led to believe by a few people at the event that red pants were traditionally worn by, erm, ladies of a certain age. It is something I vaugly thought
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 10, 2002
              On Sun, Nov 10, 2002 at 05:32:38PM -0900, Ii Saburou wrote:
              > On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Jamie Norwood wrote:
              >
              > > was the one in the very red hitatare. Yes, I know, red isn't a good color
              > > for a guy, but alas, I didn't know that when I made the garb. I've promised
              > > to have more masculine garb by the next event we go to!
              >
              > ?? Red is fine. Having a red and white Miko* outfit might not be so good,
              > but I have seen plenty of red hakama. Why would you say it is not
              > masculine?

              I was led to believe by a few people at the event that red pants were
              traditionally worn by, erm, ladies of a certain age. It is something I vaugly
              thought I had heard before, but took a risk on as I rather like the
              particular red silk we found, but having it expressed by a few people
              made me a bit worried about it.

              > I know that modern comic books do not indicate period practice, but it is
              > interesting to note that a modern comic book--Inuyasha--has a very male
              > lead hero who has a red hakama and white kosode. What this shows is that
              > modern Japanese do not necessarily see a red-white combination as only
              > feminine. I would argue that there is no evidence that such a bias
              > existed in period.

              I've never been sure either way. I would love some clarification of what
              colors were worn when, and what colors were never worn in certain ways?
              Anyone know a good representation of this? :)

              > Actually, I find it interesting some of the conclusions that are drawn
              > about colors in Japan; e.g. Because white is associated with death, white
              > must not be a good color to wear unless you are going to a funeral.

              Never made these myself, as they make little sense to me and I never saw
              anything that said it was true...

              > Color is important in court garb and in the layers of Heian noblewomen.
              > Other 'work clothes' no doubt had specific colors, but for the most part
              > people seem to have worn what they liked. There is a tremendous amount of
              > variation in the clothing in period illustrations, however.

              This is what I was thinking when I went all red. I'm not thoroughly
              confused as to what is right and not. :) Thank you though for helping
              me figure it out!

              > -Ii

              >
              > *Miko = shinto priestess. Their typical regalia is white kimono (not sure
              > what kind) with red hakama.
              >
              >
              >
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              >
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              >
            • daviem01
              ... were ... something I vaugly ... people ... Interesting...I had heard that the bright orangey-red nagabakama were appropriate in Heian and Kamakura for
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 10, 2002
                > I was led to believe by a few people at the event that red pants
                were
                > traditionally worn by, erm, ladies of a certain age. It is
                something I vaugly
                > thought I had heard before, but took a risk on as I rather like the
                > particular red silk we found, but having it expressed by a few
                people
                > made me a bit worried about it.

                Interesting...I had heard that the bright orangey-red nagabakama were
                appropriate in Heian and Kamakura for ladies "of age" (which in
                modern Japan means 20 or over, I know little about the period
                equivalent). A girl who was younger, and still considered a child,
                would wear darker red or maroon hakama. Those "restrictions" only
                apply WITHIN women's garb, though, and have no bearing on men's
                outfits.

                -Aine
              • Ii Saburou
                ... During the Heian period women wore red nagabakama--but these are VERY specific, and NOTHING like most other hakama. They are the type of hakama that drag
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 10, 2002
                  On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Jamie Norwood wrote:

                  > > ?? Red is fine. Having a red and white Miko* outfit might not be so good,
                  > > but I have seen plenty of red hakama. Why would you say it is not
                  > > masculine?
                  >
                  > I was led to believe by a few people at the event that red pants were
                  > traditionally worn by, erm, ladies of a certain age. It is something I vaugly
                  > thought I had heard before, but took a risk on as I rather like the
                  > particular red silk we found, but having it expressed by a few people
                  > made me a bit worried about it.

                  During the Heian period women wore red nagabakama--but these are VERY
                  specific, and NOTHING like most other hakama. They are the type of hakama
                  that drag behind you on the floor.

                  I have a red kataginu kamishimo that is red, with my badge on it
                  (actually, counterchanged in color, but noticeably 'i').

                  Even in the Heian period I find evidence of men in red trousers
                  (sashinuki, shitabakama). They weren't everywhere, though. My guess is
                  that it is the rule that Heian noblewomen wear red nagabakama, but not
                  that red is restricted to women.

                  Oh, and ooguchi--the underlayer trousers of men's sokutai--are
                  exclusively red from the evidence I've seen.

                  > > I know that modern comic books do not indicate period practice, but it is
                  > > interesting to note that a modern comic book--Inuyasha--has a very male
                  > > lead hero who has a red hakama and white kosode. What this shows is that
                  > > modern Japanese do not necessarily see a red-white combination as only
                  > > feminine. I would argue that there is no evidence that such a bias
                  > > existed in period.
                  >
                  > I've never been sure either way. I would love some clarification of what
                  > colors were worn when, and what colors were never worn in certain ways?
                  > Anyone know a good representation of this? :)

                  There is no simple rule here. Best to pick a period and place and look
                  into what you want.

                  Senogoku Jidai (Warring States Period; late 15th~16th C) is really a free
                  time for the provincial daimyo, who have become the rulers of their own
                  domains. They could pretty much wear what they felt like, and often did
                  as far as color and patterns went.

                  > > Color is important in court garb and in the layers of Heian noblewomen.
                  > > Other 'work clothes' no doubt had specific colors, but for the most part
                  > > people seem to have worn what they liked. There is a tremendous amount of
                  > > variation in the clothing in period illustrations, however.
                  >
                  > This is what I was thinking when I went all red. I'm not thoroughly
                  > confused as to what is right and not. :) Thank you though for helping
                  > me figure it out!

                  Check out http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/Garb.html and
                  http://www.iz2.or.jp/ (the latter is in Japanese, but there is an English
                  version of the site).

                  These are the best two sites I know of for getting an idea of what you are
                  looking for.

                  -Ii
                • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                  ... were ... That is also my understanding. The color is referred to as kurenai . Ake is a shade of red that was associated with male Heian courtiers of the
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 10, 2002
                    --- In sca-jml@y..., "daviem01" <ellen.m.davis@a...> wrote:
                    > Interesting...I had heard that the bright orangey-red nagabakama
                    were
                    > appropriate in Heian and Kamakura for ladies "of age".

                    That is also my understanding. The color is referred to
                    as "kurenai". "Ake" is a shade of red that was associated with male
                    Heian courtiers of the Fourth Rank. (I really DO need to get my own
                    copy of Liza Dalby's "Kimono!")

                    Recent encounters with Heian and Kamakura period literature mention
                    black and shades of grey were worn by women in mourning during those
                    periods, though black might also be worn by Imperial princes (not in
                    mourning). Anybody know when the custom of white = death arose?

                    Makiwara
                  • Ii Saburou
                    ... I can t remember which is which right now, but one is the color associated with death in the Buddhist tradition imported from the mainland, and the other
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 11, 2002
                      On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, makiwara_no_yetsuko wrote:

                      > Recent encounters with Heian and Kamakura period literature mention
                      > black and shades of grey were worn by women in mourning during those
                      > periods, though black might also be worn by Imperial princes (not in
                      > mourning). Anybody know when the custom of white = death arose?

                      I can't remember which is which right now, but one is the color associated
                      with death in the Buddhist tradition imported from the mainland, and the
                      other is associated with death in the Shinto tradition.

                      -Ii
                    • jcruz@sd.synetics.com
                      Hi. Chiming in for a moment. Just a few thoughts on the death and colors subject. I don t know this for a fact, but an anthropologist friend of mine says
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 12, 2002
                        Hi. Chiming in for a moment. Just a few thoughts on the death and colors
                        subject.

                        I don't know this for a fact, but an anthropologist friend of mine says
                        that white associates with death because the dead are cremated, and the
                        ashes left behind are white.

                        There is also an association with white = purity in Chinese culture. (And,
                        of course, the Japanese may have inheritted it thus.) The dead were
                        dressed in white because it was thought that they should appear pure when
                        they moved on to the next life/world/realm/whatever. White paper would be
                        wrapped around cherished items and the items burned, thus sending the item
                        to the deceased in the next world. A tradition that continues to this day
                        at Chinese funerals is to give out white envelopes with sweet candy (to
                        take away the bitter taste of death) and hell money to be burned. The hell
                        money helps the dead in various transactions in the afterlife. (I'm
                        imagining there's a thriving economy in the buddhist hell, between hell
                        money and bartering cherished items . . .) There is a resultant saying
                        that white envelopes are unlucky, and tend to contain bad news. White
                        Scarves and White Rings were apparently particularly associated with death
                        in China.

                        Shinto equates the color white with purity. The idea of wrapping a corpse
                        in white to purify it seems to be present in most cultures.

                        There seems to be a little correlation to this in parts of India also, so
                        it may have followed along with Buddhism. There is an Indian / Hindu
                        connection in the fact that color related to caste and karma. The darker
                        your skin, the worse your karma (and therefore the lower your caste) was
                        thought to be. The Brahmins were generally pale skinned. So perhaps
                        dressing the dead in white was an attempt to upgrade their ticket to the
                        next/after-life a bit?

                        One might also note that the typically visible flesh of a corpse loses much
                        of its color, can become quite pallid, because the blood is pulled out of
                        it by gravity. Even very dark skinned corpses can become quite pale. Thus
                        white may again associate with corpses.

                        Black is apparently associated with death in the Western world because of
                        the Romans. It was a tradition for mourners to dress in black because it
                        was thought to hide the mourners from the spirits of the deceased who might
                        otherwise try to haunt them. As such, the tradition of wearing black to
                        mourn predates Christianity, but also seems to follow it out of Rome.

                        Just some thoughts.

                        --Ishii no Jinkuro (or is it improper to write that "no"?)

                        On 11/12/2002 02:51:12 AM sca-jml wrote:

                        >Message: 1
                        >Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 04:07:38 -0900 (AKST)
                        >From: Ii Saburou <logan@...>
                        >Subject: Re: Re: Colors, was de-lurking and a question
                        >
                        >On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, makiwara_no_yetsuko wrote:
                        >
                        >> Recent encounters with Heian and Kamakura period literature mention
                        >> black and shades of grey were worn by women in mourning during those
                        >> periods, though black might also be worn by Imperial princes (not in
                        >> mourning). Anybody know when the custom of white = death arose?
                        >
                        >I can't remember which is which right now, but one is the color associated
                        >with death in the Buddhist tradition imported from the mainland, and the
                        >other is associated with death in the Shinto tradition.
                        >
                        >-Ii
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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