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Re: [SCA-JML] Title Help

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  • Anthony J. Bryant
    ... Unfortunately, any titles suggested would be culturally (and technically) inaccurate. Japan did not, of course, have a guild structure. You were either an
    Message 1 of 28 , Nov 9, 2002
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      lord_aharon_of_talkon wrote:

      > Hello Everyone!
      >
      > I'm reorganizing the potter's guild that I started here in Caid and
      > making it a bit more formal. It was suggested that the guild have
      > tiers of experience levels, different titles. I was thinking that I'd
      > have student, journeyman, and teacher (staying completely away from
      > the apprentice/master titels the SCA uses), but I didn't want to use
      > english. It just sounded, well...boring.
      >
      > So, I figured I would ask you all out there that know period japanese,
      > what are the closest translations to those titles? Or, if perhaps
      > someone out there has a better idea of what titles I should use in
      > japanese, I would love to hear them!

      Unfortunately, any titles suggested would be culturally (and technically)
      inaccurate. Japan did not, of course, have a guild structure. You were
      either an apprentice (deshi, a term which has more in common with "disciple"
      than simple student) to your master (sensei, danna, meijin, oyabun,
      whathaveyou), or you were your own master.

      Effingham
    • Ii Saburou
      ... If you are looking for something Japanese, one could suggest the modern kyu-dan levels if you are looking for that kind of description. However, this
      Message 2 of 28 , Nov 9, 2002
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        On Sat, 9 Nov 2002, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

        > Unfortunately, any titles suggested would be culturally (and technically)
        > inaccurate. Japan did not, of course, have a guild structure. You were
        > either an apprentice (deshi, a term which has more in common with "disciple"
        > than simple student) to your master (sensei, danna, meijin, oyabun,
        > whathaveyou), or you were your own master.
        >
        If you are looking for something Japanese, one could suggest the modern
        kyu-dan levels if you are looking for that kind of description. However,
        this system screams 'KANO!'* to me, and I don't believe that it is period,
        though I could be wrong.

        Other than that, I would tend to agree with Hiraizumi-dono. A possibility
        is, rather than rank, to have positions, perhaps? I don't know what it
        takes to run a pottery shop (I can't imagine that it took too much for
        simple ceramics as I've seen people with kilns in their back yards).
        Maybe there is a Shop Owner, and a Firer, and a Glazer, and a worker,
        etc.? These wouldn't be ranks, just honorary job descriptions (heck, they
        did it for the nobles often enough, didn't they?)

        -Ii

        *Jigoro Kano, founder of modern judo, who basically invented the colored
        belt kyu-dan system that we see in most dojos today.
      • Susan and Frank Downs
        Greetings! What about Kohei, Sempai, Sensei? Is Sensei reserved for Laurels and Pelicans? -- Takenoshita Naro Frank Downs
        Message 3 of 28 , Nov 10, 2002
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          Greetings!

          What about Kohei, Sempai, Sensei? Is Sensei reserved for Laurels and
          Pelicans?
          --
          Takenoshita Naro
          Frank Downs
        • Ii Saburou
          ... To do so would be foolish--Sensei (one who comes before) is not a translation of any reserved title. Sensei basically is anyone who is instructing you.
          Message 4 of 28 , Nov 10, 2002
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            On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Susan and Frank Downs wrote:

            > Greetings!
            >
            > What about Kohei, Sempai, Sensei? Is Sensei reserved for Laurels and
            > Pelicans?
            >
            To do so would be foolish--Sensei (one who comes before) is not a
            translation of any reserved title.

            Sensei basically is anyone who is instructing you. This is also applied
            to people that one sees as wise and experienced--an old priest might be
            'sensei'. Doctors are also called 'sensei'. It is really hard to pin it
            down, but I would not really want it to be used as a title.

            I know that Renshi, Kyoshi, Hanshi are modern budo 'ranks' for instructors
            in Kendo and Atarshii Naginata--more like teacher qualifications.

            'Sempai' and 'Kohai' are simply in-house rankings and depend on where they
            stand in relationship to you: I will always be kohai to my sempai, and
            sempai to my kohai.

            I'm not sure if these are period ranking structures at all, though (well,
            I'm pretty sure sensei has been around for a while).

            -Ii
          • Don Luby
            ... Well, while I m not sure how it could / should be used in other contexts, we ve been using the term sempai to refer to the senior squire in our
            Message 5 of 28 , Nov 10, 2002
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              On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Susan and Frank Downs wrote:

              > Greetings!
              >
              > What about Kohei, Sempai, Sensei?  Is Sensei reserved for Laurels and
              > Pelicans?

              Well, while I'm not sure how it could / should be used in other
              contexts, we've been using the term 'sempai' to refer to the senior
              squire in our household.

              > --
              > Takenoshita Naro
              > Frank Downs


              Sir Koredono
              (former sempai,
              since promomted (?))

              -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no Koredono
              djl@... Yama-kaminari-ryu
              Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands, AEthelmearc
            • Ii Saburou
              ... That s generally the modern usage, except that sempai would be any squire senior to you (in this example) according to modern usage. However, customs
              Message 6 of 28 , Nov 10, 2002
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                On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Don Luby wrote:

                > > Greetings!
                > >
                > > What about Kohei, Sempai, Sensei?  Is Sensei reserved for Laurels and
                > > Pelicans?
                >
                > Well, while I'm not sure how it could / should be used in other
                > contexts, we've been using the term 'sempai' to refer to the senior
                > squire in our household.
                >
                That's generally the modern usage, except that 'sempai' would be any
                squire senior to you (in this example) according to modern usage.
                However, customs vary according to house and school.

                -Ii
              • lord_aharon_of_talkon
                ... technically) ... were ... disciple ... Hmm...so I could technically use deshi and how about danna (sensei just reminds me of Karate Kid for some
                Message 7 of 28 , Nov 14, 2002
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                  > Unfortunately, any titles suggested would be culturally (and
                  technically)
                  > inaccurate. Japan did not, of course, have a guild structure. You
                  were
                  > either an apprentice (deshi, a term which has more in common with
                  "disciple"
                  > than simple student) to your master (sensei, danna, meijin, oyabun,
                  > whathaveyou), or you were your own master.

                  Hmm...so I could technically use deshi and how about danna (sensei
                  just reminds me of Karate Kid for some reason)...is there something
                  that perhaps is in between? Or do you have other suggestions of names
                  to show a progression of an artist? Or is this too difficult to ask?

                  Side note, what does Hakase mean? Doctor, right? I'm trying to run
                  through various ideas.

                  --Artemisia
                • Ii Saburou
                  ... The problem is, I don t think they really kept track of things quite that way. Hiraizumi-dono--what about the use of -chou for the head of a group? Or
                  Message 8 of 28 , Nov 14, 2002
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                    On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, lord_aharon_of_talkon wrote:

                    > Hmm...so I could technically use deshi and how about danna (sensei
                    > just reminds me of Karate Kid for some reason)...is there something
                    > that perhaps is in between? Or do you have other suggestions of names
                    > to show a progression of an artist? Or is this too difficult to ask?

                    The problem is, I don't think they really kept track of things quite that
                    way.

                    Hiraizumi-dono--what about the use of '-chou' for the head of a group? Or
                    'kashira'?

                    'Okashira' is often used modernly to refer to a leader of a group by one
                    of its members--kind of like saying 'Boss'. '-chou' is also used today as
                    'head of'. So a 'Sonchou' is a village headman ('Son' = Village), while,
                    modernly, a 'Shachou' is the head of a company while 'Gakuchou' is the
                    principal of a school.

                    I find 'Osa' as 'head'; 'kaichou' as head of a society'; 'kumichou' as a
                    yakuza boss; 'Chouchou' as townheadman.

                    Just a thought that struck me before my morning caffeine.

                    -Ii
                  • Barbara Nostrand
                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The terms you seek pretty much do not exist. ... Hakase is the modern word associated with a doctoral degree. As for
                    Message 9 of 28 , Nov 15, 2002
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                      Noble Cousin!

                      Greetings from Solveig!

                      >Hmm...so I could technically use deshi and how about danna (sensei
                      >just reminds me of Karate Kid for some reason)...is there something
                      >that perhaps is in between? Or do you have other suggestions of names
                      >to show a progression of an artist? Or is this too difficult to ask?

                      The terms you seek pretty much do not exist.

                      >Side note, what does Hakase mean? Doctor, right? I'm trying to run
                      >through various ideas.

                      Hakase is the modern word associated with a doctoral degree.

                      As for words for head of things. Yest those do exist. -cho is pretty
                      popular these days.

                      There are words -nokami, &c. associated with offices within departments &c
                      and mistries. But, these are not free guild rankings..
                      --

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar

                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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                    • Bill Fornshell
                      Hi, The Tea Schools use Iemoto as the term for Head of the Family or School and have names for the different levels of skill or certificates. This term it is
                      Message 10 of 28 , Nov 15, 2002
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                        Hi, The Tea Schools use Iemoto as the term for Head
                        of the Family or School and have names for the
                        different levels of skill or certificates. This term
                        it is also used for "Head Of" for some of the other
                        traditional Arts. Some of the Clay Households have a
                        term to refer to the current "Head Of". The Raku
                        Family they used the word "Kichizaemon", but this
                        started with the 4th generation in 1656 and I have
                        know idea what the word means. In a video tape about
                        Kichizaemon 15 he talks about having a firing team of
                        10 helping him and that most of these men came from
                        families that had done this for the Raku family for
                        generations. Are there names or ranking for what they
                        do?? I know that other clay households had different
                        names that each new "Head Of" used but those names are
                        lost in one of my many books somewhere. I think the
                        original question had to do with a rank structure that
                        could be used for different levels of a SCA pottery
                        group. Bill

                        --- Barbara Nostrand <nostrand@...> wrote:
                        > Noble Cousin!
                        >
                        > Greetings from Solveig!
                        >
                        > >Hmm...so I could technically use deshi and how
                        > about danna (sensei
                        > >just reminds me of Karate Kid for some reason)...is
                        > there something
                        > >that perhaps is in between? Or do you have other
                        > suggestions of names
                        > >to show a progression of an artist? Or is this too
                        > difficult to ask?
                        >
                        > The terms you seek pretty much do not exist.
                        >
                        > >Side note, what does Hakase mean? Doctor, right?
                        > I'm trying to run
                        > >through various ideas.
                        >
                        > Hakase is the modern word associated with a doctoral
                        > degree.
                        >
                        > As for words for head of things. Yest those do
                        > exist. -cho is pretty
                        > popular these days.
                        >
                        > There are words -nokami, &c. associated with
                        > offices within departments &c
                        > and mistries. But, these are not free guild
                        > rankings..
                        > --
                        >
                        > Your Humble Servant
                        > Solveig Throndardottir
                        > Amateur Scholar
                        >
                        >
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig
                        > Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                        > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia
                        > Statis Mentis Est |
                        > | mailto:nostrand@... |
                        > mailto:bnostran@... |
                        >
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        > | Note. Many popular "free" email services are
                        > automatically routed to |
                        > | the trash by my email filters.
                        > |
                        >
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        >


                        =====
                        Bill Fornshell
                        Founder and President
                        Cold Mountain Chanoyu
                        (Tea School for the New Millennium)
                        School of One
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ColdMtnChado

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                      • Barbara Nostrand
                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The iemoto system was instituted during the Tokugawa period to regulate art forms. The iemoto of the various schools
                        Message 11 of 28 , Nov 15, 2002
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                          Noble Cousin!

                          Greetings from Solveig! The iemoto system was instituted
                          during the Tokugawa period to regulate art forms. The
                          iemoto of the various "schools issue certificates generically
                          called menjo (licenses) to people granting them permission to
                          do various things. Eventually, a member of one of these schools
                          may receive menjo allowing them to assume the family kamon,
                          granting them a gago (arts name), allowing them to teach in
                          various capacities, &c.

                          Names like Kichizaemon are hereditary names. These are quite
                          common in Japanese arts as well. For example, there have been
                          many Danjirou in kabuki and the individual Danjirou are numbered.
                          This parallels the situation in the tea schools where the various
                          Sen Shoshitsu (Urasenke) are numbered. They also have individual
                          names as tea masters. For example, Sen Ho'unsai again of the
                          Urasenke. As Sen Shoshitsu, a numeric designation is applied while
                          Sen Ho'unsai is a unique designation.

                          Kichizaemon is an interesting form. The -zaemon suffix is found in
                          quite a few names of artisans these days. Originally, -zaemon was
                          a suffix used to form the titles of imperialf palace gate guards
                          and is originally a titular form. Over time, these designations
                          were handed out at lower and lower levels until it eventually
                          became pretty much a free form in constructing yobina. Today it
                          has an old-timey feel which is one of the reasons that you see it
                          still being used by artisans.

                          As I have mentioned several times, the -zaemon (left gate guards)
                          and -uemon (right gate guards) titles have several ranks and can
                          be used for a ranking system. As these were originally appointive,
                          I prefer that they be given out by the crown and have adapted them
                          for levels of awards in the Society. The basic form is zaemon-no<level>.
                          Examples of the form <prototheme>zaemon such as Kichizaemon are fully
                          nominal and nature and are not titular.

                          --

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar

                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                          | the trash by my email filters. |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        • Barbara Nostrand
                          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Please send me your phone number and when I can call you. -- Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur Scholar
                          Message 12 of 28 , Nov 15, 2002
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                            Noble Cousin!

                            Greetings from Solveig! Please send me your phone number and when I can
                            call you.
                            --

                            Your Humble Servant
                            Solveig Throndardottir
                            Amateur Scholar

                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                            | the trash by my email filters. |
                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          • Barbara Nostrand
                            Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! In ancient Japan, there was a system of monopoly corporations, but these were not autonomous guilds. Commercial
                            Message 13 of 28 , Nov 16, 2002
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                              Noble Cousins!

                              Greetings from Solveig! In ancient Japan, there was a system of
                              monopoly corporations, but these were not autonomous guilds.
                              Commercial enterprises only became really important in the
                              sixteenth century, and then they were organized more like
                              corporations. In fact, some Japanese enterprises trace their
                              ancestry to the sixteenth century.

                              The iemoto system of today was organized pretty much in the
                              seventeenth century. Under the iemoto system, people are
                              granted menjo (licenses) which allow them to do various things.
                              Some systems organize these in a count down then count up
                              system similar to martial arts, while others issue menjo
                              which specify a named collection of practices. These systems
                              are primarily designed for amateurs. Professionals generally
                              follow a path of instruction in which they are progressively
                              admitted into different stages of the craft. If they are
                              studying individually with a master who does not have a system
                              of cadet schools, then there are usually no ranks, titles, or
                              even much in the way of a menjo except for maybe a final one
                              where the master recognizes their student. For example, haiku
                              is organized in a semi-professional system where poetry circles
                              are organized by poetry masters, but there are no ranks or menjo.
                              Tea is taught by licensed teachers and has a system of named
                              menjo. Incense ceremony and calligraphy often have a system of
                              numerical ranks similar to martial arts. The kimono wearing school
                              with which I am familiar, has a course of study based on articles
                              of clothing and the people who wear them. Note. Many people are
                              inept at putting on kimono, so there are professionals who come
                              to your house to dress you.
                              --

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar

                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                              | the trash by my email filters. |
                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            • lord_aharon_of_talkon
                              ... Bill, if you could peek through your books and find the names, I would greatily appreciate it. I m not 100% sure if I SHOULD have a rank and file system
                              Message 14 of 28 , Nov 17, 2002
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                                --- In sca-jml@y..., Bill Fornshell <bfornshell@y...> wrote:
                                > Hi, The Tea Schools use Iemoto as the term for Head
                                > of the Family or School and have names for the
                                > different levels of skill or certificates. This term
                                > it is also used for "Head Of" for some of the other
                                > traditional Arts.

                                Bill, if you could peek through your books and find the names, I would
                                greatily appreciate it. I'm not 100% sure if I SHOULD have a rank and
                                file system in the guild or not, but I'd definitly need names if I do
                                decide.

                                And after all that has been said, I do realize there were no period
                                titles, but if I can come up with something reasonable, a succession
                                which could be as simple as colors for the different levels (red,
                                blue, purple, whatever) or animals (like the chinese calanders) or
                                WHATEVR...I just would like some sort of name that people could
                                remember and identify with.

                                Thanks again to everyone! This has been very interesting!

                                --Artemisia
                              • Barbara Nostrand
                                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The way things are done in tea is to divide up the collection of temae into groups, the groups are sequenced, and menjo
                                Message 15 of 28 , Nov 20, 2002
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                                  Noble Cousin!

                                  Greetings from Solveig!

                                  The way things are done in tea is to divide up the collection of temae
                                  into groups, the groups are sequenced, and menjo are awarded to the groups.
                                  The way that calligraphy works is a simple numerical ranking system based
                                  on proficiency. Please pick one or the other approach. If you are simply
                                  grading proficiency, then just use numbers with the basic count down for
                                  the kyuu and count up for the dan.

                                  In pottery, you can come up with graded ranks for clay crumbling, mud
                                  mixing, &c. Later on you can have a rank for basic hand building, &c.
                                  --

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar

                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                • Horatius at the Bridge
                                  A question for a scroll I m helping with: In a japanese title, if a person were given a title that connected him to a place, how would it be phrased? Would it
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
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                                    A question for a scroll I'm helping with:

                                    In a japanese title, if a person were given a title that connected him to a
                                    place, how would it be phrased? Would it come out as Smith John no
                                    Adachigahara no defender no Southern Mountians? (English version being John
                                    smith of Adachigahara, Defender of the Southern Mountians) Or would it be
                                    Defender no southern mountians no John Smith no Adachigahara? How would the
                                    structure of such a title come out?


                                    Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into something that is
                                    nothing, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.
                                    Albert Einstein
                                  • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                    On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:55:02 -0600, Horatius at the Bridge ... (note: I m using Nanzan as southern mountains. Probably need something better than no-kami ,
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
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                                      On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:55:02 -0600, Horatius at the Bridge
                                      <horatius314@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > A question for a scroll I'm helping with:
                                      >
                                      > In a japanese title, if a person were given a title that connected him to a
                                      > place, how would it be phrased? Would it come out as Smith John no
                                      > Adachigahara no defender no Southern Mountians? (English version being John
                                      > smith of Adachigahara, Defender of the Southern Mountians) Or would it be
                                      > Defender no southern mountians no John Smith no Adachigahara? How would the
                                      > structure of such a title come out?
                                      (note: I'm using 'Nanzan' as southern mountains. Probably need
                                      something better than 'no-kami', but it seems appropriate as the
                                      character is 'mamoru', to defend, even though it refers to a governor
                                      and would be more appropriate to a baron)

                                      Smith Nanzan no kami John
                                      or
                                      Nanzan no kami John
                                      Check out names like:
                                      Kami-Izumi Ise no Kami (Fujiwara no) Hidetsuna


                                      However, often you would just be referred to by your title, like:
                                      'Nanzan no kami'

                                      Hmmm... I wonder if 'Shugo' would be better? 'Nanzan on Shugo'? I
                                      ran across it in 'Shugo Daisen Kokuto Kyo', and checked it out.
                                      Modernly it seems to refer to a defense, but I'm not sure if it was
                                      used that way in period.

                                      -Ii.

                                      PS: Completely unrelated, but while doing some linquistic fact
                                      checking I ran across an interesting expression:
                                      'Satsuma no Kami' -- it refers to travelling while deliberately not
                                      paying a fare. I would guess it probably goes back to Edo period,
                                      when you think of the history of Satsuma. The kanji are the same as
                                      'Governor of Satsuma'.
                                    • Ellen Davis
                                      No does indicate possession/belonging, but in the REVERSE order of your examples...thus, A no B translates to A s B , not B s A . So, something that
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
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                                        "No" does indicate possession/belonging, but in the REVERSE order of your
                                        examples...thus, "A no B" translates to "A's B", not "B's A".

                                        So, something that might work for you would be (words in <angle brackets>
                                        should be translated into Japanese for best effect):

                                        <Southern Mountains> no <Defender> Adachigahara no Smith John -> John Smith
                                        of Adachigahara, Defender of the Southern Mountains
                                        Adachigahara no <Southern Mountains> no <Defender> Smith John -> John Smith,
                                        Defender of Adachigahara's Southern Mountains

                                        (On a tangentially related note, I have a book on order that is all about
                                        the kabane ranking system-- hopefully that will give some more insight into
                                        titles, although I know Solveig covers some of it in her great book.)

                                        -Aine

                                        "Killing is wrong. And bad. There should be a new, stronger word for
                                        killing. Like 'badwrong', or 'badong'. Yes-- killing is 'badong'. From this
                                        moment, I will stand for the opposite of killing: 'gnodab'." -- The Chosen
                                        One, "Kung Pow!: Enter the Fist"


                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: Horatius at the Bridge [mailto:horatius314@...]
                                        > Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 8:55 PM
                                        > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: [SCA-JML] Title Help
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > A question for a scroll I'm helping with:
                                        >
                                        > In a japanese title, if a person were given a title that
                                        > connected him to a
                                        > place, how would it be phrased? Would it come out as Smith John no
                                        > Adachigahara no defender no Southern Mountians? (English
                                        > version being John
                                        > smith of Adachigahara, Defender of the Southern Mountians) Or
                                        > would it be
                                        > Defender no southern mountians no John Smith no Adachigahara?
                                        > How would the
                                        > structure of such a title come out?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into
                                        > something that is nothing, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.
                                        >
                                        > Albert Einstein
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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                                      • Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                        is there anyone out there who is willing to make full armor, padded, laced, strapped, and all from head to toe from 530? I had a man who was willing to do it,
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
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                                          is there anyone out there who is willing to make full armor, padded, laced,
                                          strapped, and all from head to toe from 530? I had a man who was willing to
                                          do it, but he fell through. so if anyone can help me it would be much
                                          appreciated.
                                        • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                          On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:00:49 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo ... What are you looking for? Are you looking for display or SCA armour? Do you need an
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
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                                            On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:00:49 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                            <desuave_cristo@...> wrote:
                                            > is there anyone out there who is willing to make full armor, padded, laced,
                                            > strapped, and all from head to toe from 530? I had a man who was willing to
                                            > do it, but he fell through. so if anyone can help me it would be much
                                            > appreciated.


                                            What are you looking for? Are you looking for display or SCA armour?
                                            Do you need an entire kit? A Helmet? What timeframe are you looking
                                            at? What kind of armour?

                                            All sorts of questions people are going to need to know.

                                            -Ii
                                          • Solveig
                                            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! I m pretty sure that the sort of titles that you are looking for are slotted in the middle of the name before tha nanori.
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
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                                              Noble Cousin!

                                              Greetings from Solveig! I'm pretty sure that the sort of titles that
                                              you are looking
                                              for are slotted in the middle of the name before tha nanori.

                                              As for -nokami. I think that we should vind out what sort of rank is intended.
                                              There are several grades available below -nokami. Further, we really should
                                              know the time period intended. There are some rather interesting ancient
                                              titles for local magnates available such as the ones that show up in the Tale
                                              of the Bamboo Cutter.

                                              Shugo is a rather specific title for military governors belonging to
                                              the bakufu.
                                              These should only be used for baronial rank as these offices were in full force
                                              through the end of period. (Takeda Shingen was a shugo.) If this is
                                              scroll is for
                                              more of a courtesy title, then the ancient court titles are more approrpiate
                                              as they had become rather widely appropriated by the sixteenth century.
                                              --

                                              Your Humble Servant
                                              Solveig Throndardottir
                                              Amateur Scholar

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                                            • michael A
                                              i may well be able to help you on this, but as Ii right says, more details would be very helpful. --kiyohara ...
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
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                                                i may well be able to help you on this, but as Ii
                                                right says, more details would be very helpful.
                                                --kiyohara

                                                --- "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                                                <tatsushu@...> wrote:

                                                >
                                                > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:00:49 -0500, Admiral DeSuave
                                                > Alimara Cristo
                                                > <desuave_cristo@...> wrote:
                                                > > is there anyone out there who is willing to make
                                                > full armor, padded, laced,
                                                > > strapped, and all from head to toe from 530? I had
                                                > a man who was willing to
                                                > > do it, but he fell through. so if anyone can help
                                                > me it would be much
                                                > > appreciated.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > What are you looking for? Are you looking for
                                                > display or SCA armour?
                                                > Do you need an entire kit? A Helmet? What
                                                > timeframe are you looking
                                                > at? What kind of armour?
                                                >
                                                > All sorts of questions people are going to need to
                                                > know.
                                                >
                                                > -Ii
                                                >
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                                              • Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                                Okay, lemme try and answer all these questions to the best of my abilities, LOL. Yes, I need an entire kit. Helmet included, and mempo. This WILL be for SCA
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
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                                                  Okay, lemme try and answer all these questions to the best of my abilities,
                                                  LOL. Yes, I need an entire kit. Helmet included, and mempo. This WILL be for
                                                  SCA FIGHTING. As far as century, if ANYONE can maybe show me some
                                                  generalized pictures of some of the centuries It would be greatly
                                                  appreciated. Or even if you showed me a pic of your armor or armor from your
                                                  favorite time period that would be greatly appreciated. The man who i was
                                                  hoping was going to make it for me is a good friend. He was going to make
                                                  the entire kit including the helmet, mempo, and full armor, padded and
                                                  strapped for $530. And I see you two are interested, so please help me out
                                                  so I can help you guys out. And In advance, I thank you through and through!
                                                  I TRUELY wish to fight this coming pennsic and I need my armor so i can (A)
                                                  practice and (B) get authorized. Thank you for all the help i know you will
                                                  be giving me in advanced!

                                                  Eric.

                                                  >From: "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)" <tatsushu@...>
                                                  >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Armour (was: Title Help)
                                                  >Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:16:48 -0500
                                                  >
                                                  >On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:00:49 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                                  ><desuave_cristo@...> wrote:
                                                  > > is there anyone out there who is willing to make full armor, padded,
                                                  >laced,
                                                  > > strapped, and all from head to toe from 530? I had a man who was willing
                                                  >to
                                                  > > do it, but he fell through. so if anyone can help me it would be much
                                                  > > appreciated.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >What are you looking for? Are you looking for display or SCA armour?
                                                  >Do you need an entire kit? A Helmet? What timeframe are you looking
                                                  >at? What kind of armour?
                                                  >
                                                  >All sorts of questions people are going to need to know.
                                                  >
                                                  >-Ii
                                                • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                                  On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:39:59 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo ... Have you checked out http://www.sengokudaimyo.com? That has an entire section on armour
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:39:59 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                                    <desuave_cristo@...> wrote:

                                                    > appreciated. Or even if you showed me a pic of your armor or armor from your
                                                    > favorite time period that would be greatly appreciated. The man who i was

                                                    Have you checked out http://www.sengokudaimyo.com? That has an entire
                                                    section on armour and how to make it.

                                                    Not to dash your hopes, but I'd be surprised if you can get a full,
                                                    good kit for $530 without it being a friend. As one person mentioned,
                                                    helms alone can run hundreds of dollars. If you are willing to put
                                                    time into some of the pieces, you can probably do a lot of it
                                                    yourself.

                                                    For example, the kote, suneate, and haidate can all be done out of
                                                    fabric with some minimal work on making it look right; you can
                                                    probably use wood or light pieces of metal that can be easily worked
                                                    for the metal bits.

                                                    The nodowa might be difficult, but you should be able to find a
                                                    low-price gorget that you could then do-up with stuff to look like the
                                                    right dangly bits.

                                                    Unless you can do it yourself, you will probably want to buy low
                                                    profile leg and elbow cowters to go under it all, since most of the
                                                    stuff I've talked about isn't there for protection.

                                                    Gauntlets will be a must if you plan to fight in a Japanese style (no
                                                    basket hilt, two handed weapons, etc.). Even without it, you should
                                                    have demi-gauntlets at a minimum to protect the wrist.

                                                    For the 'do', or body armour, I can see several choices. Check out
                                                    Hiraizumi-dono's site and look through there. I can think of several
                                                    'cheats' that could be done: using a European breastplate and then
                                                    mocking it up with lames to do a 'nanban-do' could be really cool if
                                                    done right. A Heian period 'o-yoroi' could have much of it covered
                                                    with leather or fabric so that you could have an actual solid piece
                                                    underneath, and just do the lacing for the kusazuri, sode, and other
                                                    bits of furniture.

                                                    For a helmet, I know I've talked with a friend about taking a spun-top
                                                    and adding the lames to form the shikoro--or at least something that
                                                    looks like one. Add a crest and it would be passable, if not perfect.

                                                    Another option is to go ahead and get a lot of low-profile stuff and
                                                    do a 'street clothes' style of hiding the armour, with loose hakama
                                                    and hitatare, or something similar.

                                                    Just ideas.


                                                    -Ii
                                                  • Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                                    Woo! My boy just hit me back and he s willing to do the full kit customized, strapped , padded, everything i ask for $530. thank you for all your searching,
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
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                                                      Woo! My boy just hit me back and he's willing to do the full kit customized,
                                                      strapped , padded, everything i ask for $530. thank you for all your
                                                      searching, writing, and help anyway.

                                                      Eric.

                                                      >From: "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)" <tatsushu@...>
                                                      >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                                      >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                                      >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Armour (was: Title Help)
                                                      >Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:11:29 -0500
                                                      >
                                                      >On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:39:59 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                                      ><desuave_cristo@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > > appreciated. Or even if you showed me a pic of your armor or armor from
                                                      >your
                                                      > > favorite time period that would be greatly appreciated. The man who i
                                                      >was
                                                      >
                                                      >Have you checked out http://www.sengokudaimyo.com? That has an entire
                                                      >section on armour and how to make it.
                                                      >
                                                      >Not to dash your hopes, but I'd be surprised if you can get a full,
                                                      >good kit for $530 without it being a friend. As one person mentioned,
                                                      >helms alone can run hundreds of dollars. If you are willing to put
                                                      >time into some of the pieces, you can probably do a lot of it
                                                      >yourself.
                                                      >
                                                      >For example, the kote, suneate, and haidate can all be done out of
                                                      >fabric with some minimal work on making it look right; you can
                                                      >probably use wood or light pieces of metal that can be easily worked
                                                      >for the metal bits.
                                                      >
                                                      >The nodowa might be difficult, but you should be able to find a
                                                      >low-price gorget that you could then do-up with stuff to look like the
                                                      >right dangly bits.
                                                      >
                                                      >Unless you can do it yourself, you will probably want to buy low
                                                      >profile leg and elbow cowters to go under it all, since most of the
                                                      >stuff I've talked about isn't there for protection.
                                                      >
                                                      >Gauntlets will be a must if you plan to fight in a Japanese style (no
                                                      >basket hilt, two handed weapons, etc.). Even without it, you should
                                                      >have demi-gauntlets at a minimum to protect the wrist.
                                                      >
                                                      >For the 'do', or <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px
                                                      >double;'
                                                      >href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=24&k=body%20armour"
                                                      >onmouseover="window.status='body armour'; return true;"
                                                      >onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">body armour</a>, I can see
                                                      >several choices. Check out
                                                      >Hiraizumi-dono's site and look through there. I can think of several
                                                      >'cheats' that could be done: using a European breastplate and then
                                                      >mocking it up with lames to do a 'nanban-do' could be really cool if
                                                      >done right. A Heian period 'o-yoroi' could have much of it covered
                                                      >with leather or fabric so that you could have an actual solid piece
                                                      >underneath, and just do the lacing for the kusazuri, sode, and other
                                                      >bits of furniture.
                                                      >
                                                      >For a helmet, I know I've talked with a friend about taking a spun-top
                                                      >and adding the lames to form the shikoro--or at least something that
                                                      >looks like one. Add a crest and it would be passable, if not perfect.
                                                      >
                                                      >Another option is to go ahead and get a lot of low-profile stuff and
                                                      >do a 'street clothes' style of hiding the armour, with loose hakama
                                                      >and hitatare, or something similar.
                                                      >
                                                      >Just ideas.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >-Ii
                                                    • Horatius at the Bridge
                                                      Would it be appropriate to modify traditional sushi to reflect local ingredients? I ve seen the various incarnations of modern sushi available at the local
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Feb 25, 2005
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                                                        Would it be appropriate to modify traditional sushi to reflect local
                                                        ingredients?

                                                        I've seen the various incarnations of modern sushi available at the local
                                                        deli and Japanese resturaunts. I've even seen 'sushi' (please note the quote
                                                        marks) variants such as the Arkansas roll, the Boston roll and the
                                                        all-pervasive California roll. I've even seen and eaten the rather tasty
                                                        North Dakota roll. I understand these are modern versions. But were there
                                                        local interpretations of sushi that could be served in period?


                                                        Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into something that is
                                                        nothing, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.
                                                        Albert Einstein
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