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Re: [SCA-JML] Title Help

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  • Bill Fornshell
    Hi, I am in Ansteorra, The Barony of Bjornsborg. We want to start a potters group here and I looked at each Kingdom web page for a potters guild to use as a
    Message 1 of 28 , Nov 9, 2002
      Hi, I am in Ansteorra, The Barony of Bjornsborg. We
      want to start a potters group here and I looked at
      each Kingdom web page for a potters guild to use as a
      guide. I didn't find a potters guild listed anywhere.
      Do you have any information about yours on a web
      site? I did find some information about "How To Start
      A Kingdom Wide Guild" and will follow that guide
      unless you have something I could look at or I find
      something better. The format I have is for a Formal
      SCA Guild. It takes some time to do this as you must
      do a few things before you can petition for a charter
      making the guild official. If you have gone through
      this process I would like to hear about how it worked.
      I have been playing with the idea of a "SCA Potters
      Guild of the Know World" and have started working on a
      new yahoo group for that. Anyone that wants to see
      where I am with this and offer any comments can see it
      at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCAPottersGuild
      Something like this could help coordinate pottery
      activities with the Know World in a way that we may be
      able to help each other at close by local SCA events
      and we could pick several major SAC events each year
      to collectively support in a bigger way. My main
      interest is in Japanese SCA Period pottery but the
      potters guild member could work in any SCA period
      pottery.

      --- lord_aharon_of_talkon <mneumark@...>
      wrote:
      > Hello Everyone!
      >
      > I'm reorganizing the potter's guild that I started
      > here in Caid and
      > making it a bit more formal. It was suggested that
      > the guild have
      > tiers of experience levels, different titles. I was
      > thinking that I'd
      > have student, journeyman, and teacher (staying
      > completely away from
      > the apprentice/master titels the SCA uses), but I
      > didn't want to use
      > english. It just sounded, well...boring.
      >
      > So, I figured I would ask you all out there that
      > know period japanese,
      > what are the closest translations to those titles?
      > Or, if perhaps
      > someone out there has a better idea of what titles I
      > should use in
      > japanese, I would love to hear them!
      >
      > If people want to hear or need to hear what makes
      > each title
      > different, let me know and I will explain further.
      > I just didn't want
      > to bore you all out there.
      >
      > --Artemesia
      >
      >




      =====
      Bill Fornshell
      Founder and President
      Cold Mountain Chanoyu
      (Tea School for the New Millennium)
      School of One
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ColdMtnChado

      __________________________________________________
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    • Anthony J. Bryant
      ... Unfortunately, any titles suggested would be culturally (and technically) inaccurate. Japan did not, of course, have a guild structure. You were either an
      Message 2 of 28 , Nov 9, 2002
        lord_aharon_of_talkon wrote:

        > Hello Everyone!
        >
        > I'm reorganizing the potter's guild that I started here in Caid and
        > making it a bit more formal. It was suggested that the guild have
        > tiers of experience levels, different titles. I was thinking that I'd
        > have student, journeyman, and teacher (staying completely away from
        > the apprentice/master titels the SCA uses), but I didn't want to use
        > english. It just sounded, well...boring.
        >
        > So, I figured I would ask you all out there that know period japanese,
        > what are the closest translations to those titles? Or, if perhaps
        > someone out there has a better idea of what titles I should use in
        > japanese, I would love to hear them!

        Unfortunately, any titles suggested would be culturally (and technically)
        inaccurate. Japan did not, of course, have a guild structure. You were
        either an apprentice (deshi, a term which has more in common with "disciple"
        than simple student) to your master (sensei, danna, meijin, oyabun,
        whathaveyou), or you were your own master.

        Effingham
      • Ii Saburou
        ... If you are looking for something Japanese, one could suggest the modern kyu-dan levels if you are looking for that kind of description. However, this
        Message 3 of 28 , Nov 9, 2002
          On Sat, 9 Nov 2002, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

          > Unfortunately, any titles suggested would be culturally (and technically)
          > inaccurate. Japan did not, of course, have a guild structure. You were
          > either an apprentice (deshi, a term which has more in common with "disciple"
          > than simple student) to your master (sensei, danna, meijin, oyabun,
          > whathaveyou), or you were your own master.
          >
          If you are looking for something Japanese, one could suggest the modern
          kyu-dan levels if you are looking for that kind of description. However,
          this system screams 'KANO!'* to me, and I don't believe that it is period,
          though I could be wrong.

          Other than that, I would tend to agree with Hiraizumi-dono. A possibility
          is, rather than rank, to have positions, perhaps? I don't know what it
          takes to run a pottery shop (I can't imagine that it took too much for
          simple ceramics as I've seen people with kilns in their back yards).
          Maybe there is a Shop Owner, and a Firer, and a Glazer, and a worker,
          etc.? These wouldn't be ranks, just honorary job descriptions (heck, they
          did it for the nobles often enough, didn't they?)

          -Ii

          *Jigoro Kano, founder of modern judo, who basically invented the colored
          belt kyu-dan system that we see in most dojos today.
        • Susan and Frank Downs
          Greetings! What about Kohei, Sempai, Sensei? Is Sensei reserved for Laurels and Pelicans? -- Takenoshita Naro Frank Downs
          Message 4 of 28 , Nov 10, 2002
            Greetings!

            What about Kohei, Sempai, Sensei? Is Sensei reserved for Laurels and
            Pelicans?
            --
            Takenoshita Naro
            Frank Downs
          • Ii Saburou
            ... To do so would be foolish--Sensei (one who comes before) is not a translation of any reserved title. Sensei basically is anyone who is instructing you.
            Message 5 of 28 , Nov 10, 2002
              On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Susan and Frank Downs wrote:

              > Greetings!
              >
              > What about Kohei, Sempai, Sensei? Is Sensei reserved for Laurels and
              > Pelicans?
              >
              To do so would be foolish--Sensei (one who comes before) is not a
              translation of any reserved title.

              Sensei basically is anyone who is instructing you. This is also applied
              to people that one sees as wise and experienced--an old priest might be
              'sensei'. Doctors are also called 'sensei'. It is really hard to pin it
              down, but I would not really want it to be used as a title.

              I know that Renshi, Kyoshi, Hanshi are modern budo 'ranks' for instructors
              in Kendo and Atarshii Naginata--more like teacher qualifications.

              'Sempai' and 'Kohai' are simply in-house rankings and depend on where they
              stand in relationship to you: I will always be kohai to my sempai, and
              sempai to my kohai.

              I'm not sure if these are period ranking structures at all, though (well,
              I'm pretty sure sensei has been around for a while).

              -Ii
            • Don Luby
              ... Well, while I m not sure how it could / should be used in other contexts, we ve been using the term sempai to refer to the senior squire in our
              Message 6 of 28 , Nov 10, 2002
                On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Susan and Frank Downs wrote:

                > Greetings!
                >
                > What about Kohei, Sempai, Sensei?  Is Sensei reserved for Laurels and
                > Pelicans?

                Well, while I'm not sure how it could / should be used in other
                contexts, we've been using the term 'sempai' to refer to the senior
                squire in our household.

                > --
                > Takenoshita Naro
                > Frank Downs


                Sir Koredono
                (former sempai,
                since promomted (?))

                -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no Koredono
                djl@... Yama-kaminari-ryu
                Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands, AEthelmearc
              • Ii Saburou
                ... That s generally the modern usage, except that sempai would be any squire senior to you (in this example) according to modern usage. However, customs
                Message 7 of 28 , Nov 10, 2002
                  On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Don Luby wrote:

                  > > Greetings!
                  > >
                  > > What about Kohei, Sempai, Sensei?  Is Sensei reserved for Laurels and
                  > > Pelicans?
                  >
                  > Well, while I'm not sure how it could / should be used in other
                  > contexts, we've been using the term 'sempai' to refer to the senior
                  > squire in our household.
                  >
                  That's generally the modern usage, except that 'sempai' would be any
                  squire senior to you (in this example) according to modern usage.
                  However, customs vary according to house and school.

                  -Ii
                • lord_aharon_of_talkon
                  ... technically) ... were ... disciple ... Hmm...so I could technically use deshi and how about danna (sensei just reminds me of Karate Kid for some
                  Message 8 of 28 , Nov 14, 2002
                    > Unfortunately, any titles suggested would be culturally (and
                    technically)
                    > inaccurate. Japan did not, of course, have a guild structure. You
                    were
                    > either an apprentice (deshi, a term which has more in common with
                    "disciple"
                    > than simple student) to your master (sensei, danna, meijin, oyabun,
                    > whathaveyou), or you were your own master.

                    Hmm...so I could technically use deshi and how about danna (sensei
                    just reminds me of Karate Kid for some reason)...is there something
                    that perhaps is in between? Or do you have other suggestions of names
                    to show a progression of an artist? Or is this too difficult to ask?

                    Side note, what does Hakase mean? Doctor, right? I'm trying to run
                    through various ideas.

                    --Artemisia
                  • Ii Saburou
                    ... The problem is, I don t think they really kept track of things quite that way. Hiraizumi-dono--what about the use of -chou for the head of a group? Or
                    Message 9 of 28 , Nov 14, 2002
                      On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, lord_aharon_of_talkon wrote:

                      > Hmm...so I could technically use deshi and how about danna (sensei
                      > just reminds me of Karate Kid for some reason)...is there something
                      > that perhaps is in between? Or do you have other suggestions of names
                      > to show a progression of an artist? Or is this too difficult to ask?

                      The problem is, I don't think they really kept track of things quite that
                      way.

                      Hiraizumi-dono--what about the use of '-chou' for the head of a group? Or
                      'kashira'?

                      'Okashira' is often used modernly to refer to a leader of a group by one
                      of its members--kind of like saying 'Boss'. '-chou' is also used today as
                      'head of'. So a 'Sonchou' is a village headman ('Son' = Village), while,
                      modernly, a 'Shachou' is the head of a company while 'Gakuchou' is the
                      principal of a school.

                      I find 'Osa' as 'head'; 'kaichou' as head of a society'; 'kumichou' as a
                      yakuza boss; 'Chouchou' as townheadman.

                      Just a thought that struck me before my morning caffeine.

                      -Ii
                    • Barbara Nostrand
                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The terms you seek pretty much do not exist. ... Hakase is the modern word associated with a doctoral degree. As for
                      Message 10 of 28 , Nov 15, 2002
                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        >Hmm...so I could technically use deshi and how about danna (sensei
                        >just reminds me of Karate Kid for some reason)...is there something
                        >that perhaps is in between? Or do you have other suggestions of names
                        >to show a progression of an artist? Or is this too difficult to ask?

                        The terms you seek pretty much do not exist.

                        >Side note, what does Hakase mean? Doctor, right? I'm trying to run
                        >through various ideas.

                        Hakase is the modern word associated with a doctoral degree.

                        As for words for head of things. Yest those do exist. -cho is pretty
                        popular these days.

                        There are words -nokami, &c. associated with offices within departments &c
                        and mistries. But, these are not free guild rankings..
                        --

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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                      • Bill Fornshell
                        Hi, The Tea Schools use Iemoto as the term for Head of the Family or School and have names for the different levels of skill or certificates. This term it is
                        Message 11 of 28 , Nov 15, 2002
                          Hi, The Tea Schools use Iemoto as the term for Head
                          of the Family or School and have names for the
                          different levels of skill or certificates. This term
                          it is also used for "Head Of" for some of the other
                          traditional Arts. Some of the Clay Households have a
                          term to refer to the current "Head Of". The Raku
                          Family they used the word "Kichizaemon", but this
                          started with the 4th generation in 1656 and I have
                          know idea what the word means. In a video tape about
                          Kichizaemon 15 he talks about having a firing team of
                          10 helping him and that most of these men came from
                          families that had done this for the Raku family for
                          generations. Are there names or ranking for what they
                          do?? I know that other clay households had different
                          names that each new "Head Of" used but those names are
                          lost in one of my many books somewhere. I think the
                          original question had to do with a rank structure that
                          could be used for different levels of a SCA pottery
                          group. Bill

                          --- Barbara Nostrand <nostrand@...> wrote:
                          > Noble Cousin!
                          >
                          > Greetings from Solveig!
                          >
                          > >Hmm...so I could technically use deshi and how
                          > about danna (sensei
                          > >just reminds me of Karate Kid for some reason)...is
                          > there something
                          > >that perhaps is in between? Or do you have other
                          > suggestions of names
                          > >to show a progression of an artist? Or is this too
                          > difficult to ask?
                          >
                          > The terms you seek pretty much do not exist.
                          >
                          > >Side note, what does Hakase mean? Doctor, right?
                          > I'm trying to run
                          > >through various ideas.
                          >
                          > Hakase is the modern word associated with a doctoral
                          > degree.
                          >
                          > As for words for head of things. Yest those do
                          > exist. -cho is pretty
                          > popular these days.
                          >
                          > There are words -nokami, &c. associated with
                          > offices within departments &c
                          > and mistries. But, these are not free guild
                          > rankings..
                          > --
                          >
                          > Your Humble Servant
                          > Solveig Throndardottir
                          > Amateur Scholar
                          >
                          >
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig
                          > Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                          > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia
                          > Statis Mentis Est |
                          > | mailto:nostrand@... |
                          > mailto:bnostran@... |
                          >
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          > | Note. Many popular "free" email services are
                          > automatically routed to |
                          > | the trash by my email filters.
                          > |
                          >
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          >


                          =====
                          Bill Fornshell
                          Founder and President
                          Cold Mountain Chanoyu
                          (Tea School for the New Millennium)
                          School of One
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ColdMtnChado

                          __________________________________________________
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                        • Barbara Nostrand
                          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The iemoto system was instituted during the Tokugawa period to regulate art forms. The iemoto of the various schools
                          Message 12 of 28 , Nov 15, 2002
                            Noble Cousin!

                            Greetings from Solveig! The iemoto system was instituted
                            during the Tokugawa period to regulate art forms. The
                            iemoto of the various "schools issue certificates generically
                            called menjo (licenses) to people granting them permission to
                            do various things. Eventually, a member of one of these schools
                            may receive menjo allowing them to assume the family kamon,
                            granting them a gago (arts name), allowing them to teach in
                            various capacities, &c.

                            Names like Kichizaemon are hereditary names. These are quite
                            common in Japanese arts as well. For example, there have been
                            many Danjirou in kabuki and the individual Danjirou are numbered.
                            This parallels the situation in the tea schools where the various
                            Sen Shoshitsu (Urasenke) are numbered. They also have individual
                            names as tea masters. For example, Sen Ho'unsai again of the
                            Urasenke. As Sen Shoshitsu, a numeric designation is applied while
                            Sen Ho'unsai is a unique designation.

                            Kichizaemon is an interesting form. The -zaemon suffix is found in
                            quite a few names of artisans these days. Originally, -zaemon was
                            a suffix used to form the titles of imperialf palace gate guards
                            and is originally a titular form. Over time, these designations
                            were handed out at lower and lower levels until it eventually
                            became pretty much a free form in constructing yobina. Today it
                            has an old-timey feel which is one of the reasons that you see it
                            still being used by artisans.

                            As I have mentioned several times, the -zaemon (left gate guards)
                            and -uemon (right gate guards) titles have several ranks and can
                            be used for a ranking system. As these were originally appointive,
                            I prefer that they be given out by the crown and have adapted them
                            for levels of awards in the Society. The basic form is zaemon-no<level>.
                            Examples of the form <prototheme>zaemon such as Kichizaemon are fully
                            nominal and nature and are not titular.

                            --

                            Your Humble Servant
                            Solveig Throndardottir
                            Amateur Scholar

                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                            | the trash by my email filters. |
                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          • Barbara Nostrand
                            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Please send me your phone number and when I can call you. -- Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur Scholar
                            Message 13 of 28 , Nov 15, 2002
                              Noble Cousin!

                              Greetings from Solveig! Please send me your phone number and when I can
                              call you.
                              --

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar

                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                              | the trash by my email filters. |
                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            • Barbara Nostrand
                              Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! In ancient Japan, there was a system of monopoly corporations, but these were not autonomous guilds. Commercial
                              Message 14 of 28 , Nov 16, 2002
                                Noble Cousins!

                                Greetings from Solveig! In ancient Japan, there was a system of
                                monopoly corporations, but these were not autonomous guilds.
                                Commercial enterprises only became really important in the
                                sixteenth century, and then they were organized more like
                                corporations. In fact, some Japanese enterprises trace their
                                ancestry to the sixteenth century.

                                The iemoto system of today was organized pretty much in the
                                seventeenth century. Under the iemoto system, people are
                                granted menjo (licenses) which allow them to do various things.
                                Some systems organize these in a count down then count up
                                system similar to martial arts, while others issue menjo
                                which specify a named collection of practices. These systems
                                are primarily designed for amateurs. Professionals generally
                                follow a path of instruction in which they are progressively
                                admitted into different stages of the craft. If they are
                                studying individually with a master who does not have a system
                                of cadet schools, then there are usually no ranks, titles, or
                                even much in the way of a menjo except for maybe a final one
                                where the master recognizes their student. For example, haiku
                                is organized in a semi-professional system where poetry circles
                                are organized by poetry masters, but there are no ranks or menjo.
                                Tea is taught by licensed teachers and has a system of named
                                menjo. Incense ceremony and calligraphy often have a system of
                                numerical ranks similar to martial arts. The kimono wearing school
                                with which I am familiar, has a course of study based on articles
                                of clothing and the people who wear them. Note. Many people are
                                inept at putting on kimono, so there are professionals who come
                                to your house to dress you.
                                --

                                Your Humble Servant
                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                Amateur Scholar

                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                | the trash by my email filters. |
                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              • lord_aharon_of_talkon
                                ... Bill, if you could peek through your books and find the names, I would greatily appreciate it. I m not 100% sure if I SHOULD have a rank and file system
                                Message 15 of 28 , Nov 17, 2002
                                  --- In sca-jml@y..., Bill Fornshell <bfornshell@y...> wrote:
                                  > Hi, The Tea Schools use Iemoto as the term for Head
                                  > of the Family or School and have names for the
                                  > different levels of skill or certificates. This term
                                  > it is also used for "Head Of" for some of the other
                                  > traditional Arts.

                                  Bill, if you could peek through your books and find the names, I would
                                  greatily appreciate it. I'm not 100% sure if I SHOULD have a rank and
                                  file system in the guild or not, but I'd definitly need names if I do
                                  decide.

                                  And after all that has been said, I do realize there were no period
                                  titles, but if I can come up with something reasonable, a succession
                                  which could be as simple as colors for the different levels (red,
                                  blue, purple, whatever) or animals (like the chinese calanders) or
                                  WHATEVR...I just would like some sort of name that people could
                                  remember and identify with.

                                  Thanks again to everyone! This has been very interesting!

                                  --Artemisia
                                • Barbara Nostrand
                                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The way things are done in tea is to divide up the collection of temae into groups, the groups are sequenced, and menjo
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Nov 20, 2002
                                    Noble Cousin!

                                    Greetings from Solveig!

                                    The way things are done in tea is to divide up the collection of temae
                                    into groups, the groups are sequenced, and menjo are awarded to the groups.
                                    The way that calligraphy works is a simple numerical ranking system based
                                    on proficiency. Please pick one or the other approach. If you are simply
                                    grading proficiency, then just use numbers with the basic count down for
                                    the kyuu and count up for the dan.

                                    In pottery, you can come up with graded ranks for clay crumbling, mud
                                    mixing, &c. Later on you can have a rank for basic hand building, &c.
                                    --

                                    Your Humble Servant
                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Amateur Scholar

                                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                    | the trash by my email filters. |
                                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  • Horatius at the Bridge
                                    A question for a scroll I m helping with: In a japanese title, if a person were given a title that connected him to a place, how would it be phrased? Would it
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
                                      A question for a scroll I'm helping with:

                                      In a japanese title, if a person were given a title that connected him to a
                                      place, how would it be phrased? Would it come out as Smith John no
                                      Adachigahara no defender no Southern Mountians? (English version being John
                                      smith of Adachigahara, Defender of the Southern Mountians) Or would it be
                                      Defender no southern mountians no John Smith no Adachigahara? How would the
                                      structure of such a title come out?


                                      Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into something that is
                                      nothing, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.
                                      Albert Einstein
                                    • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                      On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:55:02 -0600, Horatius at the Bridge ... (note: I m using Nanzan as southern mountains. Probably need something better than no-kami ,
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
                                        On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:55:02 -0600, Horatius at the Bridge
                                        <horatius314@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > A question for a scroll I'm helping with:
                                        >
                                        > In a japanese title, if a person were given a title that connected him to a
                                        > place, how would it be phrased? Would it come out as Smith John no
                                        > Adachigahara no defender no Southern Mountians? (English version being John
                                        > smith of Adachigahara, Defender of the Southern Mountians) Or would it be
                                        > Defender no southern mountians no John Smith no Adachigahara? How would the
                                        > structure of such a title come out?
                                        (note: I'm using 'Nanzan' as southern mountains. Probably need
                                        something better than 'no-kami', but it seems appropriate as the
                                        character is 'mamoru', to defend, even though it refers to a governor
                                        and would be more appropriate to a baron)

                                        Smith Nanzan no kami John
                                        or
                                        Nanzan no kami John
                                        Check out names like:
                                        Kami-Izumi Ise no Kami (Fujiwara no) Hidetsuna


                                        However, often you would just be referred to by your title, like:
                                        'Nanzan no kami'

                                        Hmmm... I wonder if 'Shugo' would be better? 'Nanzan on Shugo'? I
                                        ran across it in 'Shugo Daisen Kokuto Kyo', and checked it out.
                                        Modernly it seems to refer to a defense, but I'm not sure if it was
                                        used that way in period.

                                        -Ii.

                                        PS: Completely unrelated, but while doing some linquistic fact
                                        checking I ran across an interesting expression:
                                        'Satsuma no Kami' -- it refers to travelling while deliberately not
                                        paying a fare. I would guess it probably goes back to Edo period,
                                        when you think of the history of Satsuma. The kanji are the same as
                                        'Governor of Satsuma'.
                                      • Ellen Davis
                                        No does indicate possession/belonging, but in the REVERSE order of your examples...thus, A no B translates to A s B , not B s A . So, something that
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
                                          "No" does indicate possession/belonging, but in the REVERSE order of your
                                          examples...thus, "A no B" translates to "A's B", not "B's A".

                                          So, something that might work for you would be (words in <angle brackets>
                                          should be translated into Japanese for best effect):

                                          <Southern Mountains> no <Defender> Adachigahara no Smith John -> John Smith
                                          of Adachigahara, Defender of the Southern Mountains
                                          Adachigahara no <Southern Mountains> no <Defender> Smith John -> John Smith,
                                          Defender of Adachigahara's Southern Mountains

                                          (On a tangentially related note, I have a book on order that is all about
                                          the kabane ranking system-- hopefully that will give some more insight into
                                          titles, although I know Solveig covers some of it in her great book.)

                                          -Aine

                                          "Killing is wrong. And bad. There should be a new, stronger word for
                                          killing. Like 'badwrong', or 'badong'. Yes-- killing is 'badong'. From this
                                          moment, I will stand for the opposite of killing: 'gnodab'." -- The Chosen
                                          One, "Kung Pow!: Enter the Fist"


                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: Horatius at the Bridge [mailto:horatius314@...]
                                          > Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 8:55 PM
                                          > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: [SCA-JML] Title Help
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > A question for a scroll I'm helping with:
                                          >
                                          > In a japanese title, if a person were given a title that
                                          > connected him to a
                                          > place, how would it be phrased? Would it come out as Smith John no
                                          > Adachigahara no defender no Southern Mountians? (English
                                          > version being John
                                          > smith of Adachigahara, Defender of the Southern Mountians) Or
                                          > would it be
                                          > Defender no southern mountians no John Smith no Adachigahara?
                                          > How would the
                                          > structure of such a title come out?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into
                                          > something that is nothing, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.
                                          >
                                          > Albert Einstein
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                          > --------------------~-->
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                                        • Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                          is there anyone out there who is willing to make full armor, padded, laced, strapped, and all from head to toe from 530? I had a man who was willing to do it,
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
                                            is there anyone out there who is willing to make full armor, padded, laced,
                                            strapped, and all from head to toe from 530? I had a man who was willing to
                                            do it, but he fell through. so if anyone can help me it would be much
                                            appreciated.
                                          • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                            On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:00:49 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo ... What are you looking for? Are you looking for display or SCA armour? Do you need an
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
                                              On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:00:49 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                              <desuave_cristo@...> wrote:
                                              > is there anyone out there who is willing to make full armor, padded, laced,
                                              > strapped, and all from head to toe from 530? I had a man who was willing to
                                              > do it, but he fell through. so if anyone can help me it would be much
                                              > appreciated.


                                              What are you looking for? Are you looking for display or SCA armour?
                                              Do you need an entire kit? A Helmet? What timeframe are you looking
                                              at? What kind of armour?

                                              All sorts of questions people are going to need to know.

                                              -Ii
                                            • Solveig
                                              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! I m pretty sure that the sort of titles that you are looking for are slotted in the middle of the name before tha nanori.
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
                                                Noble Cousin!

                                                Greetings from Solveig! I'm pretty sure that the sort of titles that
                                                you are looking
                                                for are slotted in the middle of the name before tha nanori.

                                                As for -nokami. I think that we should vind out what sort of rank is intended.
                                                There are several grades available below -nokami. Further, we really should
                                                know the time period intended. There are some rather interesting ancient
                                                titles for local magnates available such as the ones that show up in the Tale
                                                of the Bamboo Cutter.

                                                Shugo is a rather specific title for military governors belonging to
                                                the bakufu.
                                                These should only be used for baronial rank as these offices were in full force
                                                through the end of period. (Takeda Shingen was a shugo.) If this is
                                                scroll is for
                                                more of a courtesy title, then the ancient court titles are more approrpiate
                                                as they had become rather widely appropriated by the sixteenth century.
                                                --

                                                Your Humble Servant
                                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                                Amateur Scholar

                                                +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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                                              • michael A
                                                i may well be able to help you on this, but as Ii right says, more details would be very helpful. --kiyohara ...
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
                                                  i may well be able to help you on this, but as Ii
                                                  right says, more details would be very helpful.
                                                  --kiyohara

                                                  --- "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                                                  <tatsushu@...> wrote:

                                                  >
                                                  > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:00:49 -0500, Admiral DeSuave
                                                  > Alimara Cristo
                                                  > <desuave_cristo@...> wrote:
                                                  > > is there anyone out there who is willing to make
                                                  > full armor, padded, laced,
                                                  > > strapped, and all from head to toe from 530? I had
                                                  > a man who was willing to
                                                  > > do it, but he fell through. so if anyone can help
                                                  > me it would be much
                                                  > > appreciated.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > What are you looking for? Are you looking for
                                                  > display or SCA armour?
                                                  > Do you need an entire kit? A Helmet? What
                                                  > timeframe are you looking
                                                  > at? What kind of armour?
                                                  >
                                                  > All sorts of questions people are going to need to
                                                  > know.
                                                  >
                                                  > -Ii
                                                  >
                                                  >
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                                                  --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
                                                  >
                                                  >
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                                                  > sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                • Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                                  Okay, lemme try and answer all these questions to the best of my abilities, LOL. Yes, I need an entire kit. Helmet included, and mempo. This WILL be for SCA
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
                                                    Okay, lemme try and answer all these questions to the best of my abilities,
                                                    LOL. Yes, I need an entire kit. Helmet included, and mempo. This WILL be for
                                                    SCA FIGHTING. As far as century, if ANYONE can maybe show me some
                                                    generalized pictures of some of the centuries It would be greatly
                                                    appreciated. Or even if you showed me a pic of your armor or armor from your
                                                    favorite time period that would be greatly appreciated. The man who i was
                                                    hoping was going to make it for me is a good friend. He was going to make
                                                    the entire kit including the helmet, mempo, and full armor, padded and
                                                    strapped for $530. And I see you two are interested, so please help me out
                                                    so I can help you guys out. And In advance, I thank you through and through!
                                                    I TRUELY wish to fight this coming pennsic and I need my armor so i can (A)
                                                    practice and (B) get authorized. Thank you for all the help i know you will
                                                    be giving me in advanced!

                                                    Eric.

                                                    >From: "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)" <tatsushu@...>
                                                    >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                                    >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                                    >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Armour (was: Title Help)
                                                    >Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:16:48 -0500
                                                    >
                                                    >On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:00:49 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                                    ><desuave_cristo@...> wrote:
                                                    > > is there anyone out there who is willing to make full armor, padded,
                                                    >laced,
                                                    > > strapped, and all from head to toe from 530? I had a man who was willing
                                                    >to
                                                    > > do it, but he fell through. so if anyone can help me it would be much
                                                    > > appreciated.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >What are you looking for? Are you looking for display or SCA armour?
                                                    >Do you need an entire kit? A Helmet? What timeframe are you looking
                                                    >at? What kind of armour?
                                                    >
                                                    >All sorts of questions people are going to need to know.
                                                    >
                                                    >-Ii
                                                  • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                                    On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:39:59 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo ... Have you checked out http://www.sengokudaimyo.com? That has an entire section on armour
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
                                                      On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:39:59 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                                      <desuave_cristo@...> wrote:

                                                      > appreciated. Or even if you showed me a pic of your armor or armor from your
                                                      > favorite time period that would be greatly appreciated. The man who i was

                                                      Have you checked out http://www.sengokudaimyo.com? That has an entire
                                                      section on armour and how to make it.

                                                      Not to dash your hopes, but I'd be surprised if you can get a full,
                                                      good kit for $530 without it being a friend. As one person mentioned,
                                                      helms alone can run hundreds of dollars. If you are willing to put
                                                      time into some of the pieces, you can probably do a lot of it
                                                      yourself.

                                                      For example, the kote, suneate, and haidate can all be done out of
                                                      fabric with some minimal work on making it look right; you can
                                                      probably use wood or light pieces of metal that can be easily worked
                                                      for the metal bits.

                                                      The nodowa might be difficult, but you should be able to find a
                                                      low-price gorget that you could then do-up with stuff to look like the
                                                      right dangly bits.

                                                      Unless you can do it yourself, you will probably want to buy low
                                                      profile leg and elbow cowters to go under it all, since most of the
                                                      stuff I've talked about isn't there for protection.

                                                      Gauntlets will be a must if you plan to fight in a Japanese style (no
                                                      basket hilt, two handed weapons, etc.). Even without it, you should
                                                      have demi-gauntlets at a minimum to protect the wrist.

                                                      For the 'do', or body armour, I can see several choices. Check out
                                                      Hiraizumi-dono's site and look through there. I can think of several
                                                      'cheats' that could be done: using a European breastplate and then
                                                      mocking it up with lames to do a 'nanban-do' could be really cool if
                                                      done right. A Heian period 'o-yoroi' could have much of it covered
                                                      with leather or fabric so that you could have an actual solid piece
                                                      underneath, and just do the lacing for the kusazuri, sode, and other
                                                      bits of furniture.

                                                      For a helmet, I know I've talked with a friend about taking a spun-top
                                                      and adding the lames to form the shikoro--or at least something that
                                                      looks like one. Add a crest and it would be passable, if not perfect.

                                                      Another option is to go ahead and get a lot of low-profile stuff and
                                                      do a 'street clothes' style of hiding the armour, with loose hakama
                                                      and hitatare, or something similar.

                                                      Just ideas.


                                                      -Ii
                                                    • Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                                      Woo! My boy just hit me back and he s willing to do the full kit customized, strapped , padded, everything i ask for $530. thank you for all your searching,
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
                                                        Woo! My boy just hit me back and he's willing to do the full kit customized,
                                                        strapped , padded, everything i ask for $530. thank you for all your
                                                        searching, writing, and help anyway.

                                                        Eric.

                                                        >From: "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)" <tatsushu@...>
                                                        >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                                        >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                                        >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Armour (was: Title Help)
                                                        >Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:11:29 -0500
                                                        >
                                                        >On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:39:59 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                                        ><desuave_cristo@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > > appreciated. Or even if you showed me a pic of your armor or armor from
                                                        >your
                                                        > > favorite time period that would be greatly appreciated. The man who i
                                                        >was
                                                        >
                                                        >Have you checked out http://www.sengokudaimyo.com? That has an entire
                                                        >section on armour and how to make it.
                                                        >
                                                        >Not to dash your hopes, but I'd be surprised if you can get a full,
                                                        >good kit for $530 without it being a friend. As one person mentioned,
                                                        >helms alone can run hundreds of dollars. If you are willing to put
                                                        >time into some of the pieces, you can probably do a lot of it
                                                        >yourself.
                                                        >
                                                        >For example, the kote, suneate, and haidate can all be done out of
                                                        >fabric with some minimal work on making it look right; you can
                                                        >probably use wood or light pieces of metal that can be easily worked
                                                        >for the metal bits.
                                                        >
                                                        >The nodowa might be difficult, but you should be able to find a
                                                        >low-price gorget that you could then do-up with stuff to look like the
                                                        >right dangly bits.
                                                        >
                                                        >Unless you can do it yourself, you will probably want to buy low
                                                        >profile leg and elbow cowters to go under it all, since most of the
                                                        >stuff I've talked about isn't there for protection.
                                                        >
                                                        >Gauntlets will be a must if you plan to fight in a Japanese style (no
                                                        >basket hilt, two handed weapons, etc.). Even without it, you should
                                                        >have demi-gauntlets at a minimum to protect the wrist.
                                                        >
                                                        >For the 'do', or <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px
                                                        >double;'
                                                        >href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=24&k=body%20armour"
                                                        >onmouseover="window.status='body armour'; return true;"
                                                        >onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">body armour</a>, I can see
                                                        >several choices. Check out
                                                        >Hiraizumi-dono's site and look through there. I can think of several
                                                        >'cheats' that could be done: using a European breastplate and then
                                                        >mocking it up with lames to do a 'nanban-do' could be really cool if
                                                        >done right. A Heian period 'o-yoroi' could have much of it covered
                                                        >with leather or fabric so that you could have an actual solid piece
                                                        >underneath, and just do the lacing for the kusazuri, sode, and other
                                                        >bits of furniture.
                                                        >
                                                        >For a helmet, I know I've talked with a friend about taking a spun-top
                                                        >and adding the lames to form the shikoro--or at least something that
                                                        >looks like one. Add a crest and it would be passable, if not perfect.
                                                        >
                                                        >Another option is to go ahead and get a lot of low-profile stuff and
                                                        >do a 'street clothes' style of hiding the armour, with loose hakama
                                                        >and hitatare, or something similar.
                                                        >
                                                        >Just ideas.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >-Ii
                                                      • Horatius at the Bridge
                                                        Would it be appropriate to modify traditional sushi to reflect local ingredients? I ve seen the various incarnations of modern sushi available at the local
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Feb 25, 2005
                                                          Would it be appropriate to modify traditional sushi to reflect local
                                                          ingredients?

                                                          I've seen the various incarnations of modern sushi available at the local
                                                          deli and Japanese resturaunts. I've even seen 'sushi' (please note the quote
                                                          marks) variants such as the Arkansas roll, the Boston roll and the
                                                          all-pervasive California roll. I've even seen and eaten the rather tasty
                                                          North Dakota roll. I understand these are modern versions. But were there
                                                          local interpretations of sushi that could be served in period?


                                                          Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into something that is
                                                          nothing, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.
                                                          Albert Einstein
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