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  • lord_aharon_of_talkon
    Hello Everyone! I m reorganizing the potter s guild that I started here in Caid and making it a bit more formal. It was suggested that the guild have tiers of
    Message 1 of 28 , Nov 9, 2002
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      Hello Everyone!

      I'm reorganizing the potter's guild that I started here in Caid and
      making it a bit more formal. It was suggested that the guild have
      tiers of experience levels, different titles. I was thinking that I'd
      have student, journeyman, and teacher (staying completely away from
      the apprentice/master titels the SCA uses), but I didn't want to use
      english. It just sounded, well...boring.

      So, I figured I would ask you all out there that know period japanese,
      what are the closest translations to those titles? Or, if perhaps
      someone out there has a better idea of what titles I should use in
      japanese, I would love to hear them!

      If people want to hear or need to hear what makes each title
      different, let me know and I will explain further. I just didn't want
      to bore you all out there.

      --Artemesia
    • Bill Fornshell
      Hi, I am in Ansteorra, The Barony of Bjornsborg. We want to start a potters group here and I looked at each Kingdom web page for a potters guild to use as a
      Message 2 of 28 , Nov 9, 2002
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        Hi, I am in Ansteorra, The Barony of Bjornsborg. We
        want to start a potters group here and I looked at
        each Kingdom web page for a potters guild to use as a
        guide. I didn't find a potters guild listed anywhere.
        Do you have any information about yours on a web
        site? I did find some information about "How To Start
        A Kingdom Wide Guild" and will follow that guide
        unless you have something I could look at or I find
        something better. The format I have is for a Formal
        SCA Guild. It takes some time to do this as you must
        do a few things before you can petition for a charter
        making the guild official. If you have gone through
        this process I would like to hear about how it worked.
        I have been playing with the idea of a "SCA Potters
        Guild of the Know World" and have started working on a
        new yahoo group for that. Anyone that wants to see
        where I am with this and offer any comments can see it
        at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCAPottersGuild
        Something like this could help coordinate pottery
        activities with the Know World in a way that we may be
        able to help each other at close by local SCA events
        and we could pick several major SAC events each year
        to collectively support in a bigger way. My main
        interest is in Japanese SCA Period pottery but the
        potters guild member could work in any SCA period
        pottery.

        --- lord_aharon_of_talkon <mneumark@...>
        wrote:
        > Hello Everyone!
        >
        > I'm reorganizing the potter's guild that I started
        > here in Caid and
        > making it a bit more formal. It was suggested that
        > the guild have
        > tiers of experience levels, different titles. I was
        > thinking that I'd
        > have student, journeyman, and teacher (staying
        > completely away from
        > the apprentice/master titels the SCA uses), but I
        > didn't want to use
        > english. It just sounded, well...boring.
        >
        > So, I figured I would ask you all out there that
        > know period japanese,
        > what are the closest translations to those titles?
        > Or, if perhaps
        > someone out there has a better idea of what titles I
        > should use in
        > japanese, I would love to hear them!
        >
        > If people want to hear or need to hear what makes
        > each title
        > different, let me know and I will explain further.
        > I just didn't want
        > to bore you all out there.
        >
        > --Artemesia
        >
        >




        =====
        Bill Fornshell
        Founder and President
        Cold Mountain Chanoyu
        (Tea School for the New Millennium)
        School of One
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ColdMtnChado

        __________________________________________________
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      • Anthony J. Bryant
        ... Unfortunately, any titles suggested would be culturally (and technically) inaccurate. Japan did not, of course, have a guild structure. You were either an
        Message 3 of 28 , Nov 9, 2002
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          lord_aharon_of_talkon wrote:

          > Hello Everyone!
          >
          > I'm reorganizing the potter's guild that I started here in Caid and
          > making it a bit more formal. It was suggested that the guild have
          > tiers of experience levels, different titles. I was thinking that I'd
          > have student, journeyman, and teacher (staying completely away from
          > the apprentice/master titels the SCA uses), but I didn't want to use
          > english. It just sounded, well...boring.
          >
          > So, I figured I would ask you all out there that know period japanese,
          > what are the closest translations to those titles? Or, if perhaps
          > someone out there has a better idea of what titles I should use in
          > japanese, I would love to hear them!

          Unfortunately, any titles suggested would be culturally (and technically)
          inaccurate. Japan did not, of course, have a guild structure. You were
          either an apprentice (deshi, a term which has more in common with "disciple"
          than simple student) to your master (sensei, danna, meijin, oyabun,
          whathaveyou), or you were your own master.

          Effingham
        • Ii Saburou
          ... If you are looking for something Japanese, one could suggest the modern kyu-dan levels if you are looking for that kind of description. However, this
          Message 4 of 28 , Nov 9, 2002
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            On Sat, 9 Nov 2002, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

            > Unfortunately, any titles suggested would be culturally (and technically)
            > inaccurate. Japan did not, of course, have a guild structure. You were
            > either an apprentice (deshi, a term which has more in common with "disciple"
            > than simple student) to your master (sensei, danna, meijin, oyabun,
            > whathaveyou), or you were your own master.
            >
            If you are looking for something Japanese, one could suggest the modern
            kyu-dan levels if you are looking for that kind of description. However,
            this system screams 'KANO!'* to me, and I don't believe that it is period,
            though I could be wrong.

            Other than that, I would tend to agree with Hiraizumi-dono. A possibility
            is, rather than rank, to have positions, perhaps? I don't know what it
            takes to run a pottery shop (I can't imagine that it took too much for
            simple ceramics as I've seen people with kilns in their back yards).
            Maybe there is a Shop Owner, and a Firer, and a Glazer, and a worker,
            etc.? These wouldn't be ranks, just honorary job descriptions (heck, they
            did it for the nobles often enough, didn't they?)

            -Ii

            *Jigoro Kano, founder of modern judo, who basically invented the colored
            belt kyu-dan system that we see in most dojos today.
          • Susan and Frank Downs
            Greetings! What about Kohei, Sempai, Sensei? Is Sensei reserved for Laurels and Pelicans? -- Takenoshita Naro Frank Downs
            Message 5 of 28 , Nov 10, 2002
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              Greetings!

              What about Kohei, Sempai, Sensei? Is Sensei reserved for Laurels and
              Pelicans?
              --
              Takenoshita Naro
              Frank Downs
            • Ii Saburou
              ... To do so would be foolish--Sensei (one who comes before) is not a translation of any reserved title. Sensei basically is anyone who is instructing you.
              Message 6 of 28 , Nov 10, 2002
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                On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Susan and Frank Downs wrote:

                > Greetings!
                >
                > What about Kohei, Sempai, Sensei? Is Sensei reserved for Laurels and
                > Pelicans?
                >
                To do so would be foolish--Sensei (one who comes before) is not a
                translation of any reserved title.

                Sensei basically is anyone who is instructing you. This is also applied
                to people that one sees as wise and experienced--an old priest might be
                'sensei'. Doctors are also called 'sensei'. It is really hard to pin it
                down, but I would not really want it to be used as a title.

                I know that Renshi, Kyoshi, Hanshi are modern budo 'ranks' for instructors
                in Kendo and Atarshii Naginata--more like teacher qualifications.

                'Sempai' and 'Kohai' are simply in-house rankings and depend on where they
                stand in relationship to you: I will always be kohai to my sempai, and
                sempai to my kohai.

                I'm not sure if these are period ranking structures at all, though (well,
                I'm pretty sure sensei has been around for a while).

                -Ii
              • Don Luby
                ... Well, while I m not sure how it could / should be used in other contexts, we ve been using the term sempai to refer to the senior squire in our
                Message 7 of 28 , Nov 10, 2002
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                  On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Susan and Frank Downs wrote:

                  > Greetings!
                  >
                  > What about Kohei, Sempai, Sensei?  Is Sensei reserved for Laurels and
                  > Pelicans?

                  Well, while I'm not sure how it could / should be used in other
                  contexts, we've been using the term 'sempai' to refer to the senior
                  squire in our household.

                  > --
                  > Takenoshita Naro
                  > Frank Downs


                  Sir Koredono
                  (former sempai,
                  since promomted (?))

                  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no Koredono
                  djl@... Yama-kaminari-ryu
                  Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands, AEthelmearc
                • Ii Saburou
                  ... That s generally the modern usage, except that sempai would be any squire senior to you (in this example) according to modern usage. However, customs
                  Message 8 of 28 , Nov 10, 2002
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                    On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Don Luby wrote:

                    > > Greetings!
                    > >
                    > > What about Kohei, Sempai, Sensei?  Is Sensei reserved for Laurels and
                    > > Pelicans?
                    >
                    > Well, while I'm not sure how it could / should be used in other
                    > contexts, we've been using the term 'sempai' to refer to the senior
                    > squire in our household.
                    >
                    That's generally the modern usage, except that 'sempai' would be any
                    squire senior to you (in this example) according to modern usage.
                    However, customs vary according to house and school.

                    -Ii
                  • lord_aharon_of_talkon
                    ... technically) ... were ... disciple ... Hmm...so I could technically use deshi and how about danna (sensei just reminds me of Karate Kid for some
                    Message 9 of 28 , Nov 14, 2002
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                      > Unfortunately, any titles suggested would be culturally (and
                      technically)
                      > inaccurate. Japan did not, of course, have a guild structure. You
                      were
                      > either an apprentice (deshi, a term which has more in common with
                      "disciple"
                      > than simple student) to your master (sensei, danna, meijin, oyabun,
                      > whathaveyou), or you were your own master.

                      Hmm...so I could technically use deshi and how about danna (sensei
                      just reminds me of Karate Kid for some reason)...is there something
                      that perhaps is in between? Or do you have other suggestions of names
                      to show a progression of an artist? Or is this too difficult to ask?

                      Side note, what does Hakase mean? Doctor, right? I'm trying to run
                      through various ideas.

                      --Artemisia
                    • Ii Saburou
                      ... The problem is, I don t think they really kept track of things quite that way. Hiraizumi-dono--what about the use of -chou for the head of a group? Or
                      Message 10 of 28 , Nov 14, 2002
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                        On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, lord_aharon_of_talkon wrote:

                        > Hmm...so I could technically use deshi and how about danna (sensei
                        > just reminds me of Karate Kid for some reason)...is there something
                        > that perhaps is in between? Or do you have other suggestions of names
                        > to show a progression of an artist? Or is this too difficult to ask?

                        The problem is, I don't think they really kept track of things quite that
                        way.

                        Hiraizumi-dono--what about the use of '-chou' for the head of a group? Or
                        'kashira'?

                        'Okashira' is often used modernly to refer to a leader of a group by one
                        of its members--kind of like saying 'Boss'. '-chou' is also used today as
                        'head of'. So a 'Sonchou' is a village headman ('Son' = Village), while,
                        modernly, a 'Shachou' is the head of a company while 'Gakuchou' is the
                        principal of a school.

                        I find 'Osa' as 'head'; 'kaichou' as head of a society'; 'kumichou' as a
                        yakuza boss; 'Chouchou' as townheadman.

                        Just a thought that struck me before my morning caffeine.

                        -Ii
                      • Barbara Nostrand
                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The terms you seek pretty much do not exist. ... Hakase is the modern word associated with a doctoral degree. As for
                        Message 11 of 28 , Nov 15, 2002
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                          Noble Cousin!

                          Greetings from Solveig!

                          >Hmm...so I could technically use deshi and how about danna (sensei
                          >just reminds me of Karate Kid for some reason)...is there something
                          >that perhaps is in between? Or do you have other suggestions of names
                          >to show a progression of an artist? Or is this too difficult to ask?

                          The terms you seek pretty much do not exist.

                          >Side note, what does Hakase mean? Doctor, right? I'm trying to run
                          >through various ideas.

                          Hakase is the modern word associated with a doctoral degree.

                          As for words for head of things. Yest those do exist. -cho is pretty
                          popular these days.

                          There are words -nokami, &c. associated with offices within departments &c
                          and mistries. But, these are not free guild rankings..
                          --

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar

                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                          | the trash by my email filters. |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        • Bill Fornshell
                          Hi, The Tea Schools use Iemoto as the term for Head of the Family or School and have names for the different levels of skill or certificates. This term it is
                          Message 12 of 28 , Nov 15, 2002
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                            Hi, The Tea Schools use Iemoto as the term for Head
                            of the Family or School and have names for the
                            different levels of skill or certificates. This term
                            it is also used for "Head Of" for some of the other
                            traditional Arts. Some of the Clay Households have a
                            term to refer to the current "Head Of". The Raku
                            Family they used the word "Kichizaemon", but this
                            started with the 4th generation in 1656 and I have
                            know idea what the word means. In a video tape about
                            Kichizaemon 15 he talks about having a firing team of
                            10 helping him and that most of these men came from
                            families that had done this for the Raku family for
                            generations. Are there names or ranking for what they
                            do?? I know that other clay households had different
                            names that each new "Head Of" used but those names are
                            lost in one of my many books somewhere. I think the
                            original question had to do with a rank structure that
                            could be used for different levels of a SCA pottery
                            group. Bill

                            --- Barbara Nostrand <nostrand@...> wrote:
                            > Noble Cousin!
                            >
                            > Greetings from Solveig!
                            >
                            > >Hmm...so I could technically use deshi and how
                            > about danna (sensei
                            > >just reminds me of Karate Kid for some reason)...is
                            > there something
                            > >that perhaps is in between? Or do you have other
                            > suggestions of names
                            > >to show a progression of an artist? Or is this too
                            > difficult to ask?
                            >
                            > The terms you seek pretty much do not exist.
                            >
                            > >Side note, what does Hakase mean? Doctor, right?
                            > I'm trying to run
                            > >through various ideas.
                            >
                            > Hakase is the modern word associated with a doctoral
                            > degree.
                            >
                            > As for words for head of things. Yest those do
                            > exist. -cho is pretty
                            > popular these days.
                            >
                            > There are words -nokami, &c. associated with
                            > offices within departments &c
                            > and mistries. But, these are not free guild
                            > rankings..
                            > --
                            >
                            > Your Humble Servant
                            > Solveig Throndardottir
                            > Amateur Scholar
                            >
                            >
                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig
                            > Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                            > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia
                            > Statis Mentis Est |
                            > | mailto:nostrand@... |
                            > mailto:bnostran@... |
                            >
                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            > | Note. Many popular "free" email services are
                            > automatically routed to |
                            > | the trash by my email filters.
                            > |
                            >
                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            >


                            =====
                            Bill Fornshell
                            Founder and President
                            Cold Mountain Chanoyu
                            (Tea School for the New Millennium)
                            School of One
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ColdMtnChado

                            __________________________________________________
                            Do you Yahoo!?
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                          • Barbara Nostrand
                            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The iemoto system was instituted during the Tokugawa period to regulate art forms. The iemoto of the various schools
                            Message 13 of 28 , Nov 15, 2002
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                              Noble Cousin!

                              Greetings from Solveig! The iemoto system was instituted
                              during the Tokugawa period to regulate art forms. The
                              iemoto of the various "schools issue certificates generically
                              called menjo (licenses) to people granting them permission to
                              do various things. Eventually, a member of one of these schools
                              may receive menjo allowing them to assume the family kamon,
                              granting them a gago (arts name), allowing them to teach in
                              various capacities, &c.

                              Names like Kichizaemon are hereditary names. These are quite
                              common in Japanese arts as well. For example, there have been
                              many Danjirou in kabuki and the individual Danjirou are numbered.
                              This parallels the situation in the tea schools where the various
                              Sen Shoshitsu (Urasenke) are numbered. They also have individual
                              names as tea masters. For example, Sen Ho'unsai again of the
                              Urasenke. As Sen Shoshitsu, a numeric designation is applied while
                              Sen Ho'unsai is a unique designation.

                              Kichizaemon is an interesting form. The -zaemon suffix is found in
                              quite a few names of artisans these days. Originally, -zaemon was
                              a suffix used to form the titles of imperialf palace gate guards
                              and is originally a titular form. Over time, these designations
                              were handed out at lower and lower levels until it eventually
                              became pretty much a free form in constructing yobina. Today it
                              has an old-timey feel which is one of the reasons that you see it
                              still being used by artisans.

                              As I have mentioned several times, the -zaemon (left gate guards)
                              and -uemon (right gate guards) titles have several ranks and can
                              be used for a ranking system. As these were originally appointive,
                              I prefer that they be given out by the crown and have adapted them
                              for levels of awards in the Society. The basic form is zaemon-no<level>.
                              Examples of the form <prototheme>zaemon such as Kichizaemon are fully
                              nominal and nature and are not titular.

                              --

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar

                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                              | the trash by my email filters. |
                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            • Barbara Nostrand
                              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Please send me your phone number and when I can call you. -- Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur Scholar
                              Message 14 of 28 , Nov 15, 2002
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                                Noble Cousin!

                                Greetings from Solveig! Please send me your phone number and when I can
                                call you.
                                --

                                Your Humble Servant
                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                Amateur Scholar

                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                | the trash by my email filters. |
                                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              • Barbara Nostrand
                                Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! In ancient Japan, there was a system of monopoly corporations, but these were not autonomous guilds. Commercial
                                Message 15 of 28 , Nov 16, 2002
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                                  Noble Cousins!

                                  Greetings from Solveig! In ancient Japan, there was a system of
                                  monopoly corporations, but these were not autonomous guilds.
                                  Commercial enterprises only became really important in the
                                  sixteenth century, and then they were organized more like
                                  corporations. In fact, some Japanese enterprises trace their
                                  ancestry to the sixteenth century.

                                  The iemoto system of today was organized pretty much in the
                                  seventeenth century. Under the iemoto system, people are
                                  granted menjo (licenses) which allow them to do various things.
                                  Some systems organize these in a count down then count up
                                  system similar to martial arts, while others issue menjo
                                  which specify a named collection of practices. These systems
                                  are primarily designed for amateurs. Professionals generally
                                  follow a path of instruction in which they are progressively
                                  admitted into different stages of the craft. If they are
                                  studying individually with a master who does not have a system
                                  of cadet schools, then there are usually no ranks, titles, or
                                  even much in the way of a menjo except for maybe a final one
                                  where the master recognizes their student. For example, haiku
                                  is organized in a semi-professional system where poetry circles
                                  are organized by poetry masters, but there are no ranks or menjo.
                                  Tea is taught by licensed teachers and has a system of named
                                  menjo. Incense ceremony and calligraphy often have a system of
                                  numerical ranks similar to martial arts. The kimono wearing school
                                  with which I am familiar, has a course of study based on articles
                                  of clothing and the people who wear them. Note. Many people are
                                  inept at putting on kimono, so there are professionals who come
                                  to your house to dress you.
                                  --

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar

                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                • lord_aharon_of_talkon
                                  ... Bill, if you could peek through your books and find the names, I would greatily appreciate it. I m not 100% sure if I SHOULD have a rank and file system
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Nov 17, 2002
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                                    --- In sca-jml@y..., Bill Fornshell <bfornshell@y...> wrote:
                                    > Hi, The Tea Schools use Iemoto as the term for Head
                                    > of the Family or School and have names for the
                                    > different levels of skill or certificates. This term
                                    > it is also used for "Head Of" for some of the other
                                    > traditional Arts.

                                    Bill, if you could peek through your books and find the names, I would
                                    greatily appreciate it. I'm not 100% sure if I SHOULD have a rank and
                                    file system in the guild or not, but I'd definitly need names if I do
                                    decide.

                                    And after all that has been said, I do realize there were no period
                                    titles, but if I can come up with something reasonable, a succession
                                    which could be as simple as colors for the different levels (red,
                                    blue, purple, whatever) or animals (like the chinese calanders) or
                                    WHATEVR...I just would like some sort of name that people could
                                    remember and identify with.

                                    Thanks again to everyone! This has been very interesting!

                                    --Artemisia
                                  • Barbara Nostrand
                                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The way things are done in tea is to divide up the collection of temae into groups, the groups are sequenced, and menjo
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Nov 20, 2002
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                                      Noble Cousin!

                                      Greetings from Solveig!

                                      The way things are done in tea is to divide up the collection of temae
                                      into groups, the groups are sequenced, and menjo are awarded to the groups.
                                      The way that calligraphy works is a simple numerical ranking system based
                                      on proficiency. Please pick one or the other approach. If you are simply
                                      grading proficiency, then just use numbers with the basic count down for
                                      the kyuu and count up for the dan.

                                      In pottery, you can come up with graded ranks for clay crumbling, mud
                                      mixing, &c. Later on you can have a rank for basic hand building, &c.
                                      --

                                      Your Humble Servant
                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Amateur Scholar

                                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                      | the trash by my email filters. |
                                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    • Horatius at the Bridge
                                      A question for a scroll I m helping with: In a japanese title, if a person were given a title that connected him to a place, how would it be phrased? Would it
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
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                                        A question for a scroll I'm helping with:

                                        In a japanese title, if a person were given a title that connected him to a
                                        place, how would it be phrased? Would it come out as Smith John no
                                        Adachigahara no defender no Southern Mountians? (English version being John
                                        smith of Adachigahara, Defender of the Southern Mountians) Or would it be
                                        Defender no southern mountians no John Smith no Adachigahara? How would the
                                        structure of such a title come out?


                                        Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into something that is
                                        nothing, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.
                                        Albert Einstein
                                      • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                        On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:55:02 -0600, Horatius at the Bridge ... (note: I m using Nanzan as southern mountains. Probably need something better than no-kami ,
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
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                                          On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:55:02 -0600, Horatius at the Bridge
                                          <horatius314@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > A question for a scroll I'm helping with:
                                          >
                                          > In a japanese title, if a person were given a title that connected him to a
                                          > place, how would it be phrased? Would it come out as Smith John no
                                          > Adachigahara no defender no Southern Mountians? (English version being John
                                          > smith of Adachigahara, Defender of the Southern Mountians) Or would it be
                                          > Defender no southern mountians no John Smith no Adachigahara? How would the
                                          > structure of such a title come out?
                                          (note: I'm using 'Nanzan' as southern mountains. Probably need
                                          something better than 'no-kami', but it seems appropriate as the
                                          character is 'mamoru', to defend, even though it refers to a governor
                                          and would be more appropriate to a baron)

                                          Smith Nanzan no kami John
                                          or
                                          Nanzan no kami John
                                          Check out names like:
                                          Kami-Izumi Ise no Kami (Fujiwara no) Hidetsuna


                                          However, often you would just be referred to by your title, like:
                                          'Nanzan no kami'

                                          Hmmm... I wonder if 'Shugo' would be better? 'Nanzan on Shugo'? I
                                          ran across it in 'Shugo Daisen Kokuto Kyo', and checked it out.
                                          Modernly it seems to refer to a defense, but I'm not sure if it was
                                          used that way in period.

                                          -Ii.

                                          PS: Completely unrelated, but while doing some linquistic fact
                                          checking I ran across an interesting expression:
                                          'Satsuma no Kami' -- it refers to travelling while deliberately not
                                          paying a fare. I would guess it probably goes back to Edo period,
                                          when you think of the history of Satsuma. The kanji are the same as
                                          'Governor of Satsuma'.
                                        • Ellen Davis
                                          No does indicate possession/belonging, but in the REVERSE order of your examples...thus, A no B translates to A s B , not B s A . So, something that
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
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                                            "No" does indicate possession/belonging, but in the REVERSE order of your
                                            examples...thus, "A no B" translates to "A's B", not "B's A".

                                            So, something that might work for you would be (words in <angle brackets>
                                            should be translated into Japanese for best effect):

                                            <Southern Mountains> no <Defender> Adachigahara no Smith John -> John Smith
                                            of Adachigahara, Defender of the Southern Mountains
                                            Adachigahara no <Southern Mountains> no <Defender> Smith John -> John Smith,
                                            Defender of Adachigahara's Southern Mountains

                                            (On a tangentially related note, I have a book on order that is all about
                                            the kabane ranking system-- hopefully that will give some more insight into
                                            titles, although I know Solveig covers some of it in her great book.)

                                            -Aine

                                            "Killing is wrong. And bad. There should be a new, stronger word for
                                            killing. Like 'badwrong', or 'badong'. Yes-- killing is 'badong'. From this
                                            moment, I will stand for the opposite of killing: 'gnodab'." -- The Chosen
                                            One, "Kung Pow!: Enter the Fist"


                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: Horatius at the Bridge [mailto:horatius314@...]
                                            > Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 8:55 PM
                                            > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: [SCA-JML] Title Help
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > A question for a scroll I'm helping with:
                                            >
                                            > In a japanese title, if a person were given a title that
                                            > connected him to a
                                            > place, how would it be phrased? Would it come out as Smith John no
                                            > Adachigahara no defender no Southern Mountians? (English
                                            > version being John
                                            > smith of Adachigahara, Defender of the Southern Mountians) Or
                                            > would it be
                                            > Defender no southern mountians no John Smith no Adachigahara?
                                            > How would the
                                            > structure of such a title come out?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into
                                            > something that is nothing, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.
                                            >
                                            > Albert Einstein
                                            >
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                                          • Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                            is there anyone out there who is willing to make full armor, padded, laced, strapped, and all from head to toe from 530? I had a man who was willing to do it,
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
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                                              is there anyone out there who is willing to make full armor, padded, laced,
                                              strapped, and all from head to toe from 530? I had a man who was willing to
                                              do it, but he fell through. so if anyone can help me it would be much
                                              appreciated.
                                            • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                              On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:00:49 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo ... What are you looking for? Are you looking for display or SCA armour? Do you need an
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
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                                                On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:00:49 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                                <desuave_cristo@...> wrote:
                                                > is there anyone out there who is willing to make full armor, padded, laced,
                                                > strapped, and all from head to toe from 530? I had a man who was willing to
                                                > do it, but he fell through. so if anyone can help me it would be much
                                                > appreciated.


                                                What are you looking for? Are you looking for display or SCA armour?
                                                Do you need an entire kit? A Helmet? What timeframe are you looking
                                                at? What kind of armour?

                                                All sorts of questions people are going to need to know.

                                                -Ii
                                              • Solveig
                                                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! I m pretty sure that the sort of titles that you are looking for are slotted in the middle of the name before tha nanori.
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
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                                                  Noble Cousin!

                                                  Greetings from Solveig! I'm pretty sure that the sort of titles that
                                                  you are looking
                                                  for are slotted in the middle of the name before tha nanori.

                                                  As for -nokami. I think that we should vind out what sort of rank is intended.
                                                  There are several grades available below -nokami. Further, we really should
                                                  know the time period intended. There are some rather interesting ancient
                                                  titles for local magnates available such as the ones that show up in the Tale
                                                  of the Bamboo Cutter.

                                                  Shugo is a rather specific title for military governors belonging to
                                                  the bakufu.
                                                  These should only be used for baronial rank as these offices were in full force
                                                  through the end of period. (Takeda Shingen was a shugo.) If this is
                                                  scroll is for
                                                  more of a courtesy title, then the ancient court titles are more approrpiate
                                                  as they had become rather widely appropriated by the sixteenth century.
                                                  --

                                                  Your Humble Servant
                                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                                  Amateur Scholar

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                                                • michael A
                                                  i may well be able to help you on this, but as Ii right says, more details would be very helpful. --kiyohara ...
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
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                                                    i may well be able to help you on this, but as Ii
                                                    right says, more details would be very helpful.
                                                    --kiyohara

                                                    --- "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                                                    <tatsushu@...> wrote:

                                                    >
                                                    > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:00:49 -0500, Admiral DeSuave
                                                    > Alimara Cristo
                                                    > <desuave_cristo@...> wrote:
                                                    > > is there anyone out there who is willing to make
                                                    > full armor, padded, laced,
                                                    > > strapped, and all from head to toe from 530? I had
                                                    > a man who was willing to
                                                    > > do it, but he fell through. so if anyone can help
                                                    > me it would be much
                                                    > > appreciated.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > What are you looking for? Are you looking for
                                                    > display or SCA armour?
                                                    > Do you need an entire kit? A Helmet? What
                                                    > timeframe are you looking
                                                    > at? What kind of armour?
                                                    >
                                                    > All sorts of questions people are going to need to
                                                    > know.
                                                    >
                                                    > -Ii
                                                    >
                                                    >
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                                                  • Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                                    Okay, lemme try and answer all these questions to the best of my abilities, LOL. Yes, I need an entire kit. Helmet included, and mempo. This WILL be for SCA
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
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                                                      Okay, lemme try and answer all these questions to the best of my abilities,
                                                      LOL. Yes, I need an entire kit. Helmet included, and mempo. This WILL be for
                                                      SCA FIGHTING. As far as century, if ANYONE can maybe show me some
                                                      generalized pictures of some of the centuries It would be greatly
                                                      appreciated. Or even if you showed me a pic of your armor or armor from your
                                                      favorite time period that would be greatly appreciated. The man who i was
                                                      hoping was going to make it for me is a good friend. He was going to make
                                                      the entire kit including the helmet, mempo, and full armor, padded and
                                                      strapped for $530. And I see you two are interested, so please help me out
                                                      so I can help you guys out. And In advance, I thank you through and through!
                                                      I TRUELY wish to fight this coming pennsic and I need my armor so i can (A)
                                                      practice and (B) get authorized. Thank you for all the help i know you will
                                                      be giving me in advanced!

                                                      Eric.

                                                      >From: "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)" <tatsushu@...>
                                                      >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                                      >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                                      >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Armour (was: Title Help)
                                                      >Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:16:48 -0500
                                                      >
                                                      >On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:00:49 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                                      ><desuave_cristo@...> wrote:
                                                      > > is there anyone out there who is willing to make full armor, padded,
                                                      >laced,
                                                      > > strapped, and all from head to toe from 530? I had a man who was willing
                                                      >to
                                                      > > do it, but he fell through. so if anyone can help me it would be much
                                                      > > appreciated.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >What are you looking for? Are you looking for display or SCA armour?
                                                      >Do you need an entire kit? A Helmet? What timeframe are you looking
                                                      >at? What kind of armour?
                                                      >
                                                      >All sorts of questions people are going to need to know.
                                                      >
                                                      >-Ii
                                                    • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                                      On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:39:59 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo ... Have you checked out http://www.sengokudaimyo.com? That has an entire section on armour
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
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                                                        On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:39:59 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                                        <desuave_cristo@...> wrote:

                                                        > appreciated. Or even if you showed me a pic of your armor or armor from your
                                                        > favorite time period that would be greatly appreciated. The man who i was

                                                        Have you checked out http://www.sengokudaimyo.com? That has an entire
                                                        section on armour and how to make it.

                                                        Not to dash your hopes, but I'd be surprised if you can get a full,
                                                        good kit for $530 without it being a friend. As one person mentioned,
                                                        helms alone can run hundreds of dollars. If you are willing to put
                                                        time into some of the pieces, you can probably do a lot of it
                                                        yourself.

                                                        For example, the kote, suneate, and haidate can all be done out of
                                                        fabric with some minimal work on making it look right; you can
                                                        probably use wood or light pieces of metal that can be easily worked
                                                        for the metal bits.

                                                        The nodowa might be difficult, but you should be able to find a
                                                        low-price gorget that you could then do-up with stuff to look like the
                                                        right dangly bits.

                                                        Unless you can do it yourself, you will probably want to buy low
                                                        profile leg and elbow cowters to go under it all, since most of the
                                                        stuff I've talked about isn't there for protection.

                                                        Gauntlets will be a must if you plan to fight in a Japanese style (no
                                                        basket hilt, two handed weapons, etc.). Even without it, you should
                                                        have demi-gauntlets at a minimum to protect the wrist.

                                                        For the 'do', or body armour, I can see several choices. Check out
                                                        Hiraizumi-dono's site and look through there. I can think of several
                                                        'cheats' that could be done: using a European breastplate and then
                                                        mocking it up with lames to do a 'nanban-do' could be really cool if
                                                        done right. A Heian period 'o-yoroi' could have much of it covered
                                                        with leather or fabric so that you could have an actual solid piece
                                                        underneath, and just do the lacing for the kusazuri, sode, and other
                                                        bits of furniture.

                                                        For a helmet, I know I've talked with a friend about taking a spun-top
                                                        and adding the lames to form the shikoro--or at least something that
                                                        looks like one. Add a crest and it would be passable, if not perfect.

                                                        Another option is to go ahead and get a lot of low-profile stuff and
                                                        do a 'street clothes' style of hiding the armour, with loose hakama
                                                        and hitatare, or something similar.

                                                        Just ideas.


                                                        -Ii
                                                      • Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                                        Woo! My boy just hit me back and he s willing to do the full kit customized, strapped , padded, everything i ask for $530. thank you for all your searching,
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
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                                                          Woo! My boy just hit me back and he's willing to do the full kit customized,
                                                          strapped , padded, everything i ask for $530. thank you for all your
                                                          searching, writing, and help anyway.

                                                          Eric.

                                                          >From: "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)" <tatsushu@...>
                                                          >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                                          >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                                          >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Armour (was: Title Help)
                                                          >Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:11:29 -0500
                                                          >
                                                          >On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:39:59 -0500, Admiral DeSuave Alimara Cristo
                                                          ><desuave_cristo@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > > appreciated. Or even if you showed me a pic of your armor or armor from
                                                          >your
                                                          > > favorite time period that would be greatly appreciated. The man who i
                                                          >was
                                                          >
                                                          >Have you checked out http://www.sengokudaimyo.com? That has an entire
                                                          >section on armour and how to make it.
                                                          >
                                                          >Not to dash your hopes, but I'd be surprised if you can get a full,
                                                          >good kit for $530 without it being a friend. As one person mentioned,
                                                          >helms alone can run hundreds of dollars. If you are willing to put
                                                          >time into some of the pieces, you can probably do a lot of it
                                                          >yourself.
                                                          >
                                                          >For example, the kote, suneate, and haidate can all be done out of
                                                          >fabric with some minimal work on making it look right; you can
                                                          >probably use wood or light pieces of metal that can be easily worked
                                                          >for the metal bits.
                                                          >
                                                          >The nodowa might be difficult, but you should be able to find a
                                                          >low-price gorget that you could then do-up with stuff to look like the
                                                          >right dangly bits.
                                                          >
                                                          >Unless you can do it yourself, you will probably want to buy low
                                                          >profile leg and elbow cowters to go under it all, since most of the
                                                          >stuff I've talked about isn't there for protection.
                                                          >
                                                          >Gauntlets will be a must if you plan to fight in a Japanese style (no
                                                          >basket hilt, two handed weapons, etc.). Even without it, you should
                                                          >have demi-gauntlets at a minimum to protect the wrist.
                                                          >
                                                          >For the 'do', or <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px
                                                          >double;'
                                                          >href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=24&k=body%20armour"
                                                          >onmouseover="window.status='body armour'; return true;"
                                                          >onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">body armour</a>, I can see
                                                          >several choices. Check out
                                                          >Hiraizumi-dono's site and look through there. I can think of several
                                                          >'cheats' that could be done: using a European breastplate and then
                                                          >mocking it up with lames to do a 'nanban-do' could be really cool if
                                                          >done right. A Heian period 'o-yoroi' could have much of it covered
                                                          >with leather or fabric so that you could have an actual solid piece
                                                          >underneath, and just do the lacing for the kusazuri, sode, and other
                                                          >bits of furniture.
                                                          >
                                                          >For a helmet, I know I've talked with a friend about taking a spun-top
                                                          >and adding the lames to form the shikoro--or at least something that
                                                          >looks like one. Add a crest and it would be passable, if not perfect.
                                                          >
                                                          >Another option is to go ahead and get a lot of low-profile stuff and
                                                          >do a 'street clothes' style of hiding the armour, with loose hakama
                                                          >and hitatare, or something similar.
                                                          >
                                                          >Just ideas.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >-Ii
                                                        • Horatius at the Bridge
                                                          Would it be appropriate to modify traditional sushi to reflect local ingredients? I ve seen the various incarnations of modern sushi available at the local
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Feb 25, 2005
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                                                            Would it be appropriate to modify traditional sushi to reflect local
                                                            ingredients?

                                                            I've seen the various incarnations of modern sushi available at the local
                                                            deli and Japanese resturaunts. I've even seen 'sushi' (please note the quote
                                                            marks) variants such as the Arkansas roll, the Boston roll and the
                                                            all-pervasive California roll. I've even seen and eaten the rather tasty
                                                            North Dakota roll. I understand these are modern versions. But were there
                                                            local interpretations of sushi that could be served in period?


                                                            Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into something that is
                                                            nothing, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.
                                                            Albert Einstein
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