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de-lurking and a question

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  • Hachiman
    Konbanwa! Please allow me to join the group of people de-lurking. My SCA name is Raphael Dunoir, however whilst my current persona within the SCA is 15th
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 23, 2002
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      Konbanwa!

      Please allow me to join the group of people de-lurking. My SCA name is
      Raphael Dunoir, however whilst my current persona within the SCA is 15th
      Century France, my first love has always been Japanese medieval history and
      culture...which is why I have decided to 'make the leap' and develop a
      Japanese persona.

      I've been pouring over web-sites (including Hiraizumi-dono's site [damn, I
      hope I got that right!]), and thru the previous posts to SCA-JML, and I have
      (I think) come up with a prototype name for my 16th century Japanese
      persona: "Takeda no Yoshiro Tsurugawa". However, as I'm only new to
      *developing* a Japanese name (not to mention the SCA - I've only been a
      member a short time), I am seeking the opinion of others more experienced
      than I. Are there any problems with the structure, etc, of this name? I'm
      still unsure about the nanori, which may yet be undergo some re-working.

      Mundanely, I am located in Brisbane, Australia, where I attend university
      and study Psychology. I am a member of the Barony of St Florian de la
      Riviére (also located in Brisbane) and, should the registration of my
      Japanese persona go through, I'll be the only Nihonjin in the Barony (until
      my lady registers her Japanese persona!).

      I have an additional question for any Nihonjin brewers: Has anyone a recipe
      for either O-sake or plum wine that they'd be willing to share with a
      budding brewer? Private emails are welcome, if you'd prefer not to bore
      others who may not be interested.

      I look forward to tapping into the years of knowledge that this group
      represents, and also to one day being able to share my knowledge and
      interests of Japanese culture with others.

      Thank you for your time.

      I remain,

      Your humble servant


      Raphael Dunoir
    • Ii Saburou
      ... Welcome to the fold ;) ... Good work on the name. The nanori strikes me almost as a place name, at first ( Crane River ), but I am still not that sure
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 23, 2002
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        On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Hachiman wrote:

        > Please allow me to join the group of people de-lurking. My SCA name is
        > Raphael Dunoir, however whilst my current persona within the SCA is 15th
        > Century France, my first love has always been Japanese medieval history and
        > culture...which is why I have decided to 'make the leap' and develop a
        > Japanese persona.

        Welcome to the fold ;)

        > I've been pouring over web-sites (including Hiraizumi-dono's site [damn, I
        > hope I got that right!]), and thru the previous posts to SCA-JML, and I have
        > (I think) come up with a prototype name for my 16th century Japanese
        > persona: "Takeda no Yoshiro Tsurugawa". However, as I'm only new to
        > *developing* a Japanese name (not to mention the SCA - I've only been a
        > member a short time), I am seeking the opinion of others more experienced
        > than I. Are there any problems with the structure, etc, of this name? I'm
        > still unsure about the nanori, which may yet be undergo some re-working.

        Good work on the name. The nanori strikes me almost as a place name, at
        first ('Crane River'), but I am still not that sure about all of the
        different combinations of characters for nanori, so would not be the best
        judge.

        Takeda and Yoshiro are both good, solid names for a bushi. Takeda itself
        is, of course, a good lineage, and easily documentable!

        > Mundanely, I am located in Brisbane, Australia, where I attend university
        > and study Psychology. I am a member of the Barony of St Florian de la
        > Riviére (also located in Brisbane) and, should the registration of my
        > Japanese persona go through, I'll be the only Nihonjin in the Barony (until
        > my lady registers her Japanese persona!).

        Gambaru zo!*

        > I have an additional question for any Nihonjin brewers: Has anyone a recipe
        > for either O-sake or plum wine that they'd be willing to share with a
        > budding brewer? Private emails are welcome, if you'd prefer not to bore
        > others who may not be interested.

        Well, I've not tried it, but here is what I heard from one source:
        Essentially chew up rice mash and spit it out into a jar. Then, let the
        saliva start the fermentation process. When it smells like alcohol, it is
        ready. The alcohol should neutralize any germs or bacteria in the saliva,
        although I would still suggest doing it when you are healthy. I've not
        been bold enough to try it myself, however. You can also get koji mold
        and allow that to go to work on the rice.

        Plum wine, while delicious, does not appear to be period as we think of
        it. Instead, in "A History of Japanese Food Culture" Ishige suggests that
        early fruit wines were actually made by taking various fruits and putting
        them in sake to add flavour. Similar, I understand, to modern cordials.
        It did not seem to retain a high popularity, however.

        > I look forward to tapping into the years of knowledge that this group
        > represents, and also to one day being able to share my knowledge and
        > interests of Japanese culture with others.

        -Ii

        *Go for it!
      • Anthony J. Bryant
        ... Sure did! ... Only one. Tsurugawa is a surname; you have two of them. You need to replace Tsurugawa with a given name (a nanori). ... Stupid question.
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 23, 2002
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          Hachiman wrote:

          >
          > I've been pouring over web-sites (including Hiraizumi-dono's site [damn, I
          > hope I got that right!]),

          Sure did! <G>

          > and thru the previous posts to SCA-JML, and I have
          > (I think) come up with a prototype name for my 16th century Japanese
          > persona: "Takeda no Yoshiro Tsurugawa". However, as I'm only new to
          > *developing* a Japanese name (not to mention the SCA - I've only been a
          > member a short time), I am seeking the opinion of others more experienced
          > than I. Are there any problems with the structure, etc, of this name?

          Only one. Tsurugawa is a surname; you have two of them. You need to replace
          Tsurugawa with a given name (a nanori).

          > I'm
          > still unsure about the nanori, which may yet be undergo some re-working.
          >
          > Mundanely, I am located in Brisbane, Australia, where I attend university
          > and study Psychology.

          Stupid question. I've always wondered. Is the Oz town pronounced "BRIZZ-bun" or
          "BRIZZ-bayn"?

          > I have an additional question for any Nihonjin brewers: Has anyone a recipe
          > for either O-sake or plum wine that they'd be willing to share with a
          > budding brewer?

          There are several recipes online for sake; just do a Google for "sake recipe"
          and pick your fave. Most of them are passingly period. Plum wine,
          unfortunately, is a modern thing. More's the pity. <G> Still, you can find
          recipes for this online, too. The most simple ones are variations of "get
          shochu (Japanese vodka, basically), add some sugar, drop in a pile of ume.
          Wait." Note that it's hard to find ume outside Japan, I think. They're *not*
          plums, and they're not apricots, either. They're an entirely different fruit.

          Welcome to the madhouse. <G>

          Effingham (aka Hiraizumi no ason)
        • Hachiman
          ... Only one. Tsurugawa is a surname; you have two of them. You need to replace Tsurugawa with a given name (a nanori). Domo arigato! I had some misgivings
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 23, 2002
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            > Are there any problems with the structure, etc, of this name?

            Only one. Tsurugawa is a surname; you have two of them. You need to
            replace
            Tsurugawa with a given name (a nanori).

            Domo arigato! I had some misgivings about that one - which is kind of a
            pity,
            'cause its rather a nice name.

            * snip*

            Stupid question. I've always wondered. Is the Oz town pronounced
            "BRIZZ-bun" or
            "BRIZZ-bayn"?

            With respect Hiraizumi-dono, there is no such thing as a stupid question
            apart
            from the question that one never asks, but keeps to oneself. :) Natives to
            Australia
            pronounce it "Brizz-bun". We Aussies tend to be lazy when we speak. We
            cut off the
            ends of words, run every word in a sentence together, and don't open our
            mouths very
            much when speaking (this is to avoid accidentally swallowing flies!)

            *snip*

            Welcome to the madhouse. <G>

            Effingham (aka Hiraizumi no ason)

            Once again, domo arigato! :)

            Regards
            Raphael Dunoir





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          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! It sounds like you have put together a name with form: where you want a name with form
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 27, 2002
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig! It sounds like you have put together a name with
              form:

              <surname> <tsusho> <surname>

              where you want a name with form

              <surname> <tsusho> <nanori>

              Nanori are things like: Ieyasu, Munenori, Hideyoshi, Yoritomo, &c.

              >I have an additional question for any Nihonjin brewers: Has anyone a recipe
              >for either O-sake or plum wine that they'd be willing to share with a
              >budding brewer? Private emails are welcome, if you'd prefer not to bore
              >others who may not be interested.

              There is a monograph in English on sake production which was produced about
              a hundred years ago. I think I still have a copy in pdf format. However, I
              think that our sake brewers will have more to say on the subject than I

              >Well, I've not tried it, but here is what I heard from one source:
              >Essentially chew up rice mash and spit it out into a jar. Then, let the
              >saliva start the fermentation process. When it smells like alcohol, it is
              >ready. The alcohol should neutralize any germs or bacteria in the saliva,
              >although I would still suggest doing it when you are healthy. I've not
              >been bold enough to try it myself, however. You can also get koji mold
              >and allow that to go to work on the rice.

              This business about chewing up the rice to make a mash is a pretty old way
              to make sake. Sake was industrially produced by the Sengoku period. In
              particular, the chewing was supposeably performed by young women. What you
              need is rice and koji which is used to convert starch in the rice prior to
              fermentation. I do have a few recepies for sake found in Ryorimonogatari.
              I think I posted one for quick sweet sake a year or so ago.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              --

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

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            • Rosemary Norwood
              A very belated welcome to the list! St FLorian de la Rivire is my home barony - but I am a long way from home here in the Shire of Eisental in the Kingdom of
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 10, 2002
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                A very belated welcome to the list! St FLorian de la Rivire is my home
                barony - but I am a long way from home here in the Shire of Eisental in
                the Kingdom of the East (Eastern Pennsylvania).

                Eventually Yomada-dono and myself plan to move our small family back to
                your part of the world - it will be nice to have other Japanese personas
                to commune with.

                I look forward to your participation in the list!

                Yomada no Tatsutoshime


                On Wed, Oct 23, 2002 at 10:04:45PM +1000,
                Hachiman wrote: > Konbanwa!
                >
                >
                > Mundanely, I am located in Brisbane, Australia, where I attend university
                > and study Psychology. I am a member of the Barony of St Florian de la
                > Rivi?re (also located in Brisbane) and, should the registration of my
                > Japanese persona go through, I'll be the only Nihonjin in the Barony (until
                > my lady registers her Japanese persona!).
              • Ii Saburou
                ... But, you re in Eisental--did you make it to Sword and the Chrysanthemum? Forgive me if we met there as I am terrible about connecting online persons with
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 10, 2002
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                  On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Rosemary Norwood wrote:

                  > Eventually Yomada-dono and myself plan to move our small family back to
                  > your part of the world - it will be nice to have other Japanese personas
                  > to commune with.

                  But, you're in Eisental--did you make it to Sword and the Chrysanthemum?
                  Forgive me if we met there as I am terrible about connecting online
                  persons with real life people.

                  Anyway, you have a great group of Japanese personae in the area. Talk to
                  your seneschal about Asian Night if you aren't already participating.

                  -Ii
                • Jamie Norwood
                  ... We were there for most of the day, though we did leave before the feasts, and we sadly never got to formally meet you, something I much hoped I would get
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 10, 2002
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                    On Sun, Nov 10, 2002 at 01:41:56PM -0900, Ii Saburou wrote:
                    > > Eventually Yomada-dono and myself plan to move our small family back to
                    > > your part of the world - it will be nice to have other Japanese personas
                    > > to commune with.
                    >
                    > But, you're in Eisental--did you make it to Sword and the Chrysanthemum?
                    > Forgive me if we met there as I am terrible about connecting online
                    > persons with real life people.

                    We were there for most of the day, though we did leave before the feasts,
                    and we sadly never got to formally meet you, something I much hoped I
                    would get to do. I did get to meet Kuji-sensei, though, who taught me
                    the proper uses of a length of rope. ;) We had a blast, but our life is
                    rather stressful and we tired early. :( If you were near the gate in the
                    early afternoon, my darling wife was helping to corral the midgets, and I
                    was the one in the very red hitatare. Yes, I know, red isn't a good color
                    for a guy, but alas, I didn't know that when I made the garb. I've promised
                    to have more masculine garb by the next event we go to!

                    > Anyway, you have a great group of Japanese personae in the area. Talk to
                    > your seneschal about Asian Night if you aren't already participating.

                    We've been there many a time, Mokurai-dono throws a good gathering. We try
                    to get there when we can, but it has been a painfully long time. Maybe this
                    month will work out better!

                    > -Ii

                    Yamada no Mitsuyoshi

                    Jamie
                  • Ii Saburou
                    ... ?? Red is fine. Having a red and white Miko* outfit might not be so good, but I have seen plenty of red hakama. Why would you say it is not masculine? I
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 10, 2002
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                      On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Jamie Norwood wrote:

                      > was the one in the very red hitatare. Yes, I know, red isn't a good color
                      > for a guy, but alas, I didn't know that when I made the garb. I've promised
                      > to have more masculine garb by the next event we go to!

                      ?? Red is fine. Having a red and white Miko* outfit might not be so good,
                      but I have seen plenty of red hakama. Why would you say it is not
                      masculine?

                      I know that modern comic books do not indicate period practice, but it is
                      interesting to note that a modern comic book--Inuyasha--has a very male
                      lead hero who has a red hakama and white kosode. What this shows is that
                      modern Japanese do not necessarily see a red-white combination as only
                      feminine. I would argue that there is no evidence that such a bias
                      existed in period.

                      Actually, I find it interesting some of the conclusions that are drawn
                      about colors in Japan; e.g. Because white is associated with death, white
                      must not be a good color to wear unless you are going to a funeral.

                      First of all, white is found in many different things in Japan. Black is
                      associated with death in Western culture--does that put a stigma on black
                      as a color?

                      Color is important in court garb and in the layers of Heian noblewomen.
                      Other 'work clothes' no doubt had specific colors, but for the most part
                      people seem to have worn what they liked. There is a tremendous amount of
                      variation in the clothing in period illustrations, however.


                      -Ii

                      *Miko = shinto priestess. Their typical regalia is white kimono (not sure
                      what kind) with red hakama.
                    • Jamie Norwood
                      ... I was led to believe by a few people at the event that red pants were traditionally worn by, erm, ladies of a certain age. It is something I vaugly thought
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 10, 2002
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                        On Sun, Nov 10, 2002 at 05:32:38PM -0900, Ii Saburou wrote:
                        > On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Jamie Norwood wrote:
                        >
                        > > was the one in the very red hitatare. Yes, I know, red isn't a good color
                        > > for a guy, but alas, I didn't know that when I made the garb. I've promised
                        > > to have more masculine garb by the next event we go to!
                        >
                        > ?? Red is fine. Having a red and white Miko* outfit might not be so good,
                        > but I have seen plenty of red hakama. Why would you say it is not
                        > masculine?

                        I was led to believe by a few people at the event that red pants were
                        traditionally worn by, erm, ladies of a certain age. It is something I vaugly
                        thought I had heard before, but took a risk on as I rather like the
                        particular red silk we found, but having it expressed by a few people
                        made me a bit worried about it.

                        > I know that modern comic books do not indicate period practice, but it is
                        > interesting to note that a modern comic book--Inuyasha--has a very male
                        > lead hero who has a red hakama and white kosode. What this shows is that
                        > modern Japanese do not necessarily see a red-white combination as only
                        > feminine. I would argue that there is no evidence that such a bias
                        > existed in period.

                        I've never been sure either way. I would love some clarification of what
                        colors were worn when, and what colors were never worn in certain ways?
                        Anyone know a good representation of this? :)

                        > Actually, I find it interesting some of the conclusions that are drawn
                        > about colors in Japan; e.g. Because white is associated with death, white
                        > must not be a good color to wear unless you are going to a funeral.

                        Never made these myself, as they make little sense to me and I never saw
                        anything that said it was true...

                        > Color is important in court garb and in the layers of Heian noblewomen.
                        > Other 'work clothes' no doubt had specific colors, but for the most part
                        > people seem to have worn what they liked. There is a tremendous amount of
                        > variation in the clothing in period illustrations, however.

                        This is what I was thinking when I went all red. I'm not thoroughly
                        confused as to what is right and not. :) Thank you though for helping
                        me figure it out!

                        > -Ii

                        >
                        > *Miko = shinto priestess. Their typical regalia is white kimono (not sure
                        > what kind) with red hakama.
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • daviem01
                        ... were ... something I vaugly ... people ... Interesting...I had heard that the bright orangey-red nagabakama were appropriate in Heian and Kamakura for
                        Message 11 of 15 , Nov 10, 2002
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                          > I was led to believe by a few people at the event that red pants
                          were
                          > traditionally worn by, erm, ladies of a certain age. It is
                          something I vaugly
                          > thought I had heard before, but took a risk on as I rather like the
                          > particular red silk we found, but having it expressed by a few
                          people
                          > made me a bit worried about it.

                          Interesting...I had heard that the bright orangey-red nagabakama were
                          appropriate in Heian and Kamakura for ladies "of age" (which in
                          modern Japan means 20 or over, I know little about the period
                          equivalent). A girl who was younger, and still considered a child,
                          would wear darker red or maroon hakama. Those "restrictions" only
                          apply WITHIN women's garb, though, and have no bearing on men's
                          outfits.

                          -Aine
                        • Ii Saburou
                          ... During the Heian period women wore red nagabakama--but these are VERY specific, and NOTHING like most other hakama. They are the type of hakama that drag
                          Message 12 of 15 , Nov 10, 2002
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                            On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Jamie Norwood wrote:

                            > > ?? Red is fine. Having a red and white Miko* outfit might not be so good,
                            > > but I have seen plenty of red hakama. Why would you say it is not
                            > > masculine?
                            >
                            > I was led to believe by a few people at the event that red pants were
                            > traditionally worn by, erm, ladies of a certain age. It is something I vaugly
                            > thought I had heard before, but took a risk on as I rather like the
                            > particular red silk we found, but having it expressed by a few people
                            > made me a bit worried about it.

                            During the Heian period women wore red nagabakama--but these are VERY
                            specific, and NOTHING like most other hakama. They are the type of hakama
                            that drag behind you on the floor.

                            I have a red kataginu kamishimo that is red, with my badge on it
                            (actually, counterchanged in color, but noticeably 'i').

                            Even in the Heian period I find evidence of men in red trousers
                            (sashinuki, shitabakama). They weren't everywhere, though. My guess is
                            that it is the rule that Heian noblewomen wear red nagabakama, but not
                            that red is restricted to women.

                            Oh, and ooguchi--the underlayer trousers of men's sokutai--are
                            exclusively red from the evidence I've seen.

                            > > I know that modern comic books do not indicate period practice, but it is
                            > > interesting to note that a modern comic book--Inuyasha--has a very male
                            > > lead hero who has a red hakama and white kosode. What this shows is that
                            > > modern Japanese do not necessarily see a red-white combination as only
                            > > feminine. I would argue that there is no evidence that such a bias
                            > > existed in period.
                            >
                            > I've never been sure either way. I would love some clarification of what
                            > colors were worn when, and what colors were never worn in certain ways?
                            > Anyone know a good representation of this? :)

                            There is no simple rule here. Best to pick a period and place and look
                            into what you want.

                            Senogoku Jidai (Warring States Period; late 15th~16th C) is really a free
                            time for the provincial daimyo, who have become the rulers of their own
                            domains. They could pretty much wear what they felt like, and often did
                            as far as color and patterns went.

                            > > Color is important in court garb and in the layers of Heian noblewomen.
                            > > Other 'work clothes' no doubt had specific colors, but for the most part
                            > > people seem to have worn what they liked. There is a tremendous amount of
                            > > variation in the clothing in period illustrations, however.
                            >
                            > This is what I was thinking when I went all red. I'm not thoroughly
                            > confused as to what is right and not. :) Thank you though for helping
                            > me figure it out!

                            Check out http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/Garb.html and
                            http://www.iz2.or.jp/ (the latter is in Japanese, but there is an English
                            version of the site).

                            These are the best two sites I know of for getting an idea of what you are
                            looking for.

                            -Ii
                          • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                            ... were ... That is also my understanding. The color is referred to as kurenai . Ake is a shade of red that was associated with male Heian courtiers of the
                            Message 13 of 15 , Nov 10, 2002
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                              --- In sca-jml@y..., "daviem01" <ellen.m.davis@a...> wrote:
                              > Interesting...I had heard that the bright orangey-red nagabakama
                              were
                              > appropriate in Heian and Kamakura for ladies "of age".

                              That is also my understanding. The color is referred to
                              as "kurenai". "Ake" is a shade of red that was associated with male
                              Heian courtiers of the Fourth Rank. (I really DO need to get my own
                              copy of Liza Dalby's "Kimono!")

                              Recent encounters with Heian and Kamakura period literature mention
                              black and shades of grey were worn by women in mourning during those
                              periods, though black might also be worn by Imperial princes (not in
                              mourning). Anybody know when the custom of white = death arose?

                              Makiwara
                            • Ii Saburou
                              ... I can t remember which is which right now, but one is the color associated with death in the Buddhist tradition imported from the mainland, and the other
                              Message 14 of 15 , Nov 11, 2002
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                                On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, makiwara_no_yetsuko wrote:

                                > Recent encounters with Heian and Kamakura period literature mention
                                > black and shades of grey were worn by women in mourning during those
                                > periods, though black might also be worn by Imperial princes (not in
                                > mourning). Anybody know when the custom of white = death arose?

                                I can't remember which is which right now, but one is the color associated
                                with death in the Buddhist tradition imported from the mainland, and the
                                other is associated with death in the Shinto tradition.

                                -Ii
                              • jcruz@sd.synetics.com
                                Hi. Chiming in for a moment. Just a few thoughts on the death and colors subject. I don t know this for a fact, but an anthropologist friend of mine says
                                Message 15 of 15 , Nov 12, 2002
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                                  Hi. Chiming in for a moment. Just a few thoughts on the death and colors
                                  subject.

                                  I don't know this for a fact, but an anthropologist friend of mine says
                                  that white associates with death because the dead are cremated, and the
                                  ashes left behind are white.

                                  There is also an association with white = purity in Chinese culture. (And,
                                  of course, the Japanese may have inheritted it thus.) The dead were
                                  dressed in white because it was thought that they should appear pure when
                                  they moved on to the next life/world/realm/whatever. White paper would be
                                  wrapped around cherished items and the items burned, thus sending the item
                                  to the deceased in the next world. A tradition that continues to this day
                                  at Chinese funerals is to give out white envelopes with sweet candy (to
                                  take away the bitter taste of death) and hell money to be burned. The hell
                                  money helps the dead in various transactions in the afterlife. (I'm
                                  imagining there's a thriving economy in the buddhist hell, between hell
                                  money and bartering cherished items . . .) There is a resultant saying
                                  that white envelopes are unlucky, and tend to contain bad news. White
                                  Scarves and White Rings were apparently particularly associated with death
                                  in China.

                                  Shinto equates the color white with purity. The idea of wrapping a corpse
                                  in white to purify it seems to be present in most cultures.

                                  There seems to be a little correlation to this in parts of India also, so
                                  it may have followed along with Buddhism. There is an Indian / Hindu
                                  connection in the fact that color related to caste and karma. The darker
                                  your skin, the worse your karma (and therefore the lower your caste) was
                                  thought to be. The Brahmins were generally pale skinned. So perhaps
                                  dressing the dead in white was an attempt to upgrade their ticket to the
                                  next/after-life a bit?

                                  One might also note that the typically visible flesh of a corpse loses much
                                  of its color, can become quite pallid, because the blood is pulled out of
                                  it by gravity. Even very dark skinned corpses can become quite pale. Thus
                                  white may again associate with corpses.

                                  Black is apparently associated with death in the Western world because of
                                  the Romans. It was a tradition for mourners to dress in black because it
                                  was thought to hide the mourners from the spirits of the deceased who might
                                  otherwise try to haunt them. As such, the tradition of wearing black to
                                  mourn predates Christianity, but also seems to follow it out of Rome.

                                  Just some thoughts.

                                  --Ishii no Jinkuro (or is it improper to write that "no"?)

                                  On 11/12/2002 02:51:12 AM sca-jml wrote:

                                  >Message: 1
                                  >Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 04:07:38 -0900 (AKST)
                                  >From: Ii Saburou <logan@...>
                                  >Subject: Re: Re: Colors, was de-lurking and a question
                                  >
                                  >On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, makiwara_no_yetsuko wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> Recent encounters with Heian and Kamakura period literature mention
                                  >> black and shades of grey were worn by women in mourning during those
                                  >> periods, though black might also be worn by Imperial princes (not in
                                  >> mourning). Anybody know when the custom of white = death arose?
                                  >
                                  >I can't remember which is which right now, but one is the color associated
                                  >with death in the Buddhist tradition imported from the mainland, and the
                                  >other is associated with death in the Shinto tradition.
                                  >
                                  >-Ii
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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