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Re: [SCA-JML] kyujutsu

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  • Ii Saburou
    ... My guess is because it depends, as with all modern martial arts, on why you are studying. The need for learning how to hunt and fight with a bow has
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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      On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie wrote:

      > I know this will rankle many "Kyudo Purists" and people stuck on
      > modern tradition, but I am wondering why there is so much
      > obsession of rules, as opposed to practical experience, and the
      > actual functionality of the bow, beyond the zen aspect of it.

      My guess is because it depends, as with all modern martial arts, on why
      you are studying. The need for learning how to hunt and fight with a bow
      has disappeared. Form, discipline, and the spiritual aspects have
      remained.

      As I've learned, though, the target aspects aren't entirely gone. Your
      shots should hit specific points on the targets, according to my teacher.

      > My question to the group is "have any members experimented
      > with potentially real uses of the yumi, as opposed to six months
      > of training with a rubberband..." (rubberbands, while usefull in
      > modern times, were not period..I cannot see a period Samurai
      > training in war torn times that long before learning to loose an
      > arrow at an enemy)

      It was my belief that using rubberbands was mainly due to factors such as
      cost of yumi to train with; plus, it is something that can be used in most
      modern situations. I have watched the kyudo class I am now joining, and
      the teacher seems to be of the opinion that you should use the bow fairly
      quickly--I think he is only using the gomu-yumi to make sure that people
      have enough knowledge they aren't going to screw up the bow, themselves,
      or the arrows (all of which can be rather costly to fix, from the prices
      I've seen). Not sure, but I'll ask him about this when I get a chance.

      -Ii
    • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
      Ii-dono, I thank you for your input. I have gotten feedback from others as well privately, and I think you all have valuable opinions. I agree that the real
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 3, 2002
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        Ii-dono,
        I thank you for your input. I have gotten feedback from others as
        well privately, and I think you all have valuable opinions. I agree
        that the real need for hitting soldiers with Ya is non-existant,
        especially considdering the bland (but still as fun as fun can be)
        combat archery rules the SCA currently uses. I just get frustrated
        when I hear almost religious overtones from people who
        worship the modern "arts" without realizing (or at least voicing)
        the origins that the arts were based on. I am sure real samurai
        understood the need for training, as do we modern
        recreationists...I have no desire to break my bows (wonderfull
        Yumi <the bowmaker> creations) and think that safety is
        paramount, both with regards to the shooter, and those around
        the shooter. I just think that there is more room for a person to
        learn how to shoot by listening to the bow...
        If we "listen" as we shoot...we will learn a grea deal.

        Date

        --(...and you are right, my friend...these toys can get real
        expensive... )
      • Anthony J. Bryant
        ... It s better to watch as others shoot. One of the reasons I stress people should learn kyudo before buying a yumi is that Japanese bows do not work the
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 3, 2002
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          Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie wrote:

          > Ii-dono,
          > I thank you for your input. I have gotten feedback from others as
          > well privately, and I think you all have valuable opinions. I agree
          > that the real need for hitting soldiers with Ya is non-existant,
          > especially considdering the bland (but still as fun as fun can be)
          > combat archery rules the SCA currently uses. I just get frustrated
          > when I hear almost religious overtones from people who
          > worship the modern "arts" without realizing (or at least voicing)
          > the origins that the arts were based on. I am sure real samurai
          > understood the need for training, as do we modern
          > recreationists...I have no desire to break my bows (wonderfull
          > Yumi <the bowmaker> creations) and think that safety is
          > paramount, both with regards to the shooter, and those around
          > the shooter. I just think that there is more room for a person to
          > learn how to shoot by listening to the bow...
          > If we "listen" as we shoot...we will learn a grea deal.

          It's better to "watch" as others shoot. One of the reasons I stress people
          should learn kyudo before buying a yumi is that Japanese bows do not work
          the same way western ones do. They aren't held the same way, arrows aren't
          nocked the same way, they aren't drawn the same way, and they don't release
          the same way.

          In historical Japan, people only ever *saw* and *used* yumi, so there was no
          problem with someone picking one up wrong and using it wrong. Here, we have
          years of Robin Hood movies and Westerns to unlearn. The moves are completely
          different. People in our culture are not naturally inclined to use one
          properly, and without some instruction, won't know how.

          Does it matter? Not necessarily. You can possibly pick up a yumi, load it
          over the left (Western style) and release with a three-fingered grip and hit
          the bullseye. But you can also possibly win an SCA fight by just picking up
          the rattan and clubbing your foe like a baby seal. You'll still succeed in
          doing what you want, but you'll have no finesse, no style, and no panache,
          and you'll be no closer to grokking what we're trying to recreate because
          there's more to Japanese archery than the bow.

          That's why I tell people to learn how to use a Japanese bow in a proper
          Japanese setting. Once you know what you're doing, or supposed to be doing,
          you can abbreviate as much as you want or eliminate as much as you want. But
          at least you'll be doing so from a position of knowing what you should be
          doing.

          Did Japanese archers in combat function differently than in practice back at
          home? Almost certainly. Always works that way in combat, regardless of the
          technology.

          Look at the Civil War or Rev War infantryman. There's a whole drill, with
          multiple steps, involved in loading and firing their weapon. This takes
          time. But on the field of battle, everything has to go quicker, and some
          steps get compressed or omitted -- but still they had the steps, and they
          knew what they were omitting and why (e.g., the most common -- sticking the
          ramrod into the ground instead of returning it to its place along the stock
          of the weapon) in the interests of expediency. But they *knew* what they
          were doing. They had trained, for long hours, to develop speed and skill
          with the proper forms, so that any simplification would be able to flow due
          to familiarity with their weapon and its use.

          In point of fact, when Japanese warriors were at home practicing, they did
          it *right*, they took the time to *learn* how to do it. Only when you know
          what you're doing do you start messing around doing things like speed or
          distance shooting.

          You seem to be suggesting one should start running before even learning to
          crawl. Am I misreading this?

          Effingham
        • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
          Master Effingham, ... even learning to ... I agree with what you say, especially the info we westerners need to unlearn , but I am certaintly not suggesting
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 3, 2002
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            Master Effingham,
            >
            > You seem to be suggesting one should start running before
            even learning to
            > crawl. Am I misreading this?
            >
            > Effingham

            I agree with what you say, especially the info we westerners
            need to "unlearn", but I am certaintly not suggesting one goes
            headlong into firing without any training...I think there might have
            been a minor mis-read... :-)
            Date
          • Anthony J. Bryant
            ... Ah, good. ... Wouldn t be the first time. I m so buried in that damned otogizoshi that I m having trouble with modern English these days. Effingham
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 3, 2002
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              Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie wrote:

              > Master Effingham,
              > >
              > > You seem to be suggesting one should start running before
              > even learning to
              > > crawl. Am I misreading this?
              > >
              > > Effingham
              >
              > I agree with what you say, especially the info we westerners
              > need to "unlearn", but I am certaintly not suggesting one goes
              > headlong into firing without any training...

              Ah, good. <G>

              > I think there might have
              > been a minor mis-read... :-)

              Wouldn't be the first time. I'm so buried in that damned otogizoshi that I'm
              having trouble with modern English these days. <G>

              Effingham
            • Lloyd, Eddie
              Wouldn t be the first time. I m so buried in that damned otogizoshi that I m having trouble with modern English these days. Effingham Modern English was a
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 3, 2002
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                Wouldn't be the first time. I'm so buried in that damned otogizoshi that I'm
                having trouble with modern English these days. <G>

                Effingham


                Modern English was a really good band, although I'm sick to death of hearing
                "Melt with you" on the 80's station.


                ;)

                -Eddie







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... You re a very sick man. Effingham
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 3, 2002
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                  "Lloyd, Eddie" wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > Wouldn't be the first time. I'm so buried in that damned otogizoshi that I'm
                  > having trouble with modern English these days. <G>
                  >
                  > Effingham
                  >
                  >
                  > Modern English was a really good band, although I'm sick to death of hearing
                  > "Melt with you" on the 80's station.
                  >

                  You're a very sick man. <GGG>

                  Effingham
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