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Re: [SCA-JML] Cold weather clothing

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  • Ii Saburou
    ... Other than using a mino and straw boots for traveling, sometimes, it appears that layers was the key to warmth. First of all, silk is quite warm. Now
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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      On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Kevin wrote:

      > Konnichi-wa,
      > Due to the fact that Montana (Northern Artemesia) is cold earlier
      > (we're already getting snow mied with rain in the vallies) and later
      > than a lot of other places I was wondering if were any places where
      > I can find out what period cold weather clothing was and how to make
      > it. Any help in this would be greatly appreciated.

      Other than using a mino and straw boots for traveling, sometimes, it
      appears that layers was the key to warmth.

      First of all, silk is quite warm. Now start lining it, and then put stuff
      on top of it.

      In the Heian period you specifically see lined garments used in the winter
      times, and unlined garments in the summer, indicating that this was their
      solution. Later on, I've not seen specific examples but I would assume it
      continues.

      For Muromachi winter--tabi (preferrably lined), lined hakama, a silk
      kosode (possibly two), and probably a dobuku of at least two--if not
      three--layers. That should be warm enough for most things. If it isn't,
      then it starts getting into a question of what you want to use it for?

      -Ii
    • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
      Greetings to the list from Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie, I have sewn together a doeskin glove with a slightly harder leather ring around the thumb in
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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        Greetings to the list from Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou
        Yukiie,
        I have sewn together a doeskin glove with a slightly harder
        leather ring around the thumb in the manner of period Yugake,
        and have been experimenting with drawing Ya from my Ebira,
        then continuing with forms reminiscent of Kyudo, but allowing for
        the wearing of my O-yoroi...I am very pleased with the results.
        I can effectively select an arrow, place and draw, and loose with
        results similar to those I get with my modern hardened glove.
        To me, this seems more in "Period" than modern Kyudo, and
        though I do not disavow the modern disciplines...in fact I learn
        from them...I feel that there is a definite functionality that was lost
        due to the post WW2 rulings of modern Kyudo.
        I have seen many demonstrations of ANKF shooting in armor,
        but it seems more intent on things that would have a smaller
        bearing on Period Samurai.
        I know this will rankle many "Kyudo Purists" and people stuck on
        modern tradition, but I am wondering why there is so much
        obsession of rules, as opposed to practical experience, and the
        actual functionality of the bow, beyond the zen aspect of it.
        I follow and sometimes contribute to the Yahoo TA group...which
        is involved with the non combat aspects of archery...they have
        much info regarding bow forms...it is good education. But it
        seems that that group is very aware that the whole idea of even
        target archery , even in period, was for the purpose of either
        hitting an enemy target, or hitting food...
        My question to the group is "have any members experimented
        with potentially real uses of the yumi, as opposed to six months
        of training with a rubberband..." (rubberbands, while usefull in
        modern times, were not period..I cannot see a period Samurai
        training in war torn times that long before learning to loose an
        arrow at an enemy)
        Date
      • kujika@aol.com
        have a look at this http://www.saberdesigns.cc/textiles.htm
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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        • Kevin
          In Missoula. I am a student at UM. Kuro ... anyway. ... time ... earlier
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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            In Missoula. I am a student at UM.
            Kuro


            --- In sca-jml@y..., "big_ska_daddy" <joe_sarah1@m...> wrote:
            > Where about's in Montana are you? I am also located in Montana but
            > not active in the sca at this time. Just thought it would be great
            > to network with another in this area. Damn that cold weather
            anyway.
            >
            > I too am interested in any examples of historically accurate cold
            > weather clothing if it exists. Would be nice to stay warm this
            time
            > of year while in "character".
            >
            > Joe
            >
            > --- In sca-jml@y..., "Kevin " <shadow4549@y...> wrote:
            > > Konnichi-wa,
            > > Due to the fact that Montana (Northern Artemesia) is cold
            earlier
            > > (we're already getting snow mied with rain in the vallies) and
            > later
            > > than a lot of other places I was wondering if were any places
            > where
            > > I can find out what period cold weather clothing was and how to
            > make
            > > it. Any help in this would be greatly appreciated.
            > >
            > > Minamoto Genkuro Tanekage
          • Ii Saburou
            ... My guess is because it depends, as with all modern martial arts, on why you are studying. The need for learning how to hunt and fight with a bow has
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 1, 2002
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              On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie wrote:

              > I know this will rankle many "Kyudo Purists" and people stuck on
              > modern tradition, but I am wondering why there is so much
              > obsession of rules, as opposed to practical experience, and the
              > actual functionality of the bow, beyond the zen aspect of it.

              My guess is because it depends, as with all modern martial arts, on why
              you are studying. The need for learning how to hunt and fight with a bow
              has disappeared. Form, discipline, and the spiritual aspects have
              remained.

              As I've learned, though, the target aspects aren't entirely gone. Your
              shots should hit specific points on the targets, according to my teacher.

              > My question to the group is "have any members experimented
              > with potentially real uses of the yumi, as opposed to six months
              > of training with a rubberband..." (rubberbands, while usefull in
              > modern times, were not period..I cannot see a period Samurai
              > training in war torn times that long before learning to loose an
              > arrow at an enemy)

              It was my belief that using rubberbands was mainly due to factors such as
              cost of yumi to train with; plus, it is something that can be used in most
              modern situations. I have watched the kyudo class I am now joining, and
              the teacher seems to be of the opinion that you should use the bow fairly
              quickly--I think he is only using the gomu-yumi to make sure that people
              have enough knowledge they aren't going to screw up the bow, themselves,
              or the arrows (all of which can be rather costly to fix, from the prices
              I've seen). Not sure, but I'll ask him about this when I get a chance.

              -Ii
            • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
              Ii-dono, I thank you for your input. I have gotten feedback from others as well privately, and I think you all have valuable opinions. I agree that the real
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 3, 2002
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                Ii-dono,
                I thank you for your input. I have gotten feedback from others as
                well privately, and I think you all have valuable opinions. I agree
                that the real need for hitting soldiers with Ya is non-existant,
                especially considdering the bland (but still as fun as fun can be)
                combat archery rules the SCA currently uses. I just get frustrated
                when I hear almost religious overtones from people who
                worship the modern "arts" without realizing (or at least voicing)
                the origins that the arts were based on. I am sure real samurai
                understood the need for training, as do we modern
                recreationists...I have no desire to break my bows (wonderfull
                Yumi <the bowmaker> creations) and think that safety is
                paramount, both with regards to the shooter, and those around
                the shooter. I just think that there is more room for a person to
                learn how to shoot by listening to the bow...
                If we "listen" as we shoot...we will learn a grea deal.

                Date

                --(...and you are right, my friend...these toys can get real
                expensive... )
              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... It s better to watch as others shoot. One of the reasons I stress people should learn kyudo before buying a yumi is that Japanese bows do not work the
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 3, 2002
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                  Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie wrote:

                  > Ii-dono,
                  > I thank you for your input. I have gotten feedback from others as
                  > well privately, and I think you all have valuable opinions. I agree
                  > that the real need for hitting soldiers with Ya is non-existant,
                  > especially considdering the bland (but still as fun as fun can be)
                  > combat archery rules the SCA currently uses. I just get frustrated
                  > when I hear almost religious overtones from people who
                  > worship the modern "arts" without realizing (or at least voicing)
                  > the origins that the arts were based on. I am sure real samurai
                  > understood the need for training, as do we modern
                  > recreationists...I have no desire to break my bows (wonderfull
                  > Yumi <the bowmaker> creations) and think that safety is
                  > paramount, both with regards to the shooter, and those around
                  > the shooter. I just think that there is more room for a person to
                  > learn how to shoot by listening to the bow...
                  > If we "listen" as we shoot...we will learn a grea deal.

                  It's better to "watch" as others shoot. One of the reasons I stress people
                  should learn kyudo before buying a yumi is that Japanese bows do not work
                  the same way western ones do. They aren't held the same way, arrows aren't
                  nocked the same way, they aren't drawn the same way, and they don't release
                  the same way.

                  In historical Japan, people only ever *saw* and *used* yumi, so there was no
                  problem with someone picking one up wrong and using it wrong. Here, we have
                  years of Robin Hood movies and Westerns to unlearn. The moves are completely
                  different. People in our culture are not naturally inclined to use one
                  properly, and without some instruction, won't know how.

                  Does it matter? Not necessarily. You can possibly pick up a yumi, load it
                  over the left (Western style) and release with a three-fingered grip and hit
                  the bullseye. But you can also possibly win an SCA fight by just picking up
                  the rattan and clubbing your foe like a baby seal. You'll still succeed in
                  doing what you want, but you'll have no finesse, no style, and no panache,
                  and you'll be no closer to grokking what we're trying to recreate because
                  there's more to Japanese archery than the bow.

                  That's why I tell people to learn how to use a Japanese bow in a proper
                  Japanese setting. Once you know what you're doing, or supposed to be doing,
                  you can abbreviate as much as you want or eliminate as much as you want. But
                  at least you'll be doing so from a position of knowing what you should be
                  doing.

                  Did Japanese archers in combat function differently than in practice back at
                  home? Almost certainly. Always works that way in combat, regardless of the
                  technology.

                  Look at the Civil War or Rev War infantryman. There's a whole drill, with
                  multiple steps, involved in loading and firing their weapon. This takes
                  time. But on the field of battle, everything has to go quicker, and some
                  steps get compressed or omitted -- but still they had the steps, and they
                  knew what they were omitting and why (e.g., the most common -- sticking the
                  ramrod into the ground instead of returning it to its place along the stock
                  of the weapon) in the interests of expediency. But they *knew* what they
                  were doing. They had trained, for long hours, to develop speed and skill
                  with the proper forms, so that any simplification would be able to flow due
                  to familiarity with their weapon and its use.

                  In point of fact, when Japanese warriors were at home practicing, they did
                  it *right*, they took the time to *learn* how to do it. Only when you know
                  what you're doing do you start messing around doing things like speed or
                  distance shooting.

                  You seem to be suggesting one should start running before even learning to
                  crawl. Am I misreading this?

                  Effingham
                • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
                  Master Effingham, ... even learning to ... I agree with what you say, especially the info we westerners need to unlearn , but I am certaintly not suggesting
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 3, 2002
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                    Master Effingham,
                    >
                    > You seem to be suggesting one should start running before
                    even learning to
                    > crawl. Am I misreading this?
                    >
                    > Effingham

                    I agree with what you say, especially the info we westerners
                    need to "unlearn", but I am certaintly not suggesting one goes
                    headlong into firing without any training...I think there might have
                    been a minor mis-read... :-)
                    Date
                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                    ... Ah, good. ... Wouldn t be the first time. I m so buried in that damned otogizoshi that I m having trouble with modern English these days. Effingham
                    Message 9 of 13 , Oct 3, 2002
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                      Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie wrote:

                      > Master Effingham,
                      > >
                      > > You seem to be suggesting one should start running before
                      > even learning to
                      > > crawl. Am I misreading this?
                      > >
                      > > Effingham
                      >
                      > I agree with what you say, especially the info we westerners
                      > need to "unlearn", but I am certaintly not suggesting one goes
                      > headlong into firing without any training...

                      Ah, good. <G>

                      > I think there might have
                      > been a minor mis-read... :-)

                      Wouldn't be the first time. I'm so buried in that damned otogizoshi that I'm
                      having trouble with modern English these days. <G>

                      Effingham
                    • Lloyd, Eddie
                      Wouldn t be the first time. I m so buried in that damned otogizoshi that I m having trouble with modern English these days. Effingham Modern English was a
                      Message 10 of 13 , Oct 3, 2002
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                        Wouldn't be the first time. I'm so buried in that damned otogizoshi that I'm
                        having trouble with modern English these days. <G>

                        Effingham


                        Modern English was a really good band, although I'm sick to death of hearing
                        "Melt with you" on the 80's station.


                        ;)

                        -Eddie







                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                        ... You re a very sick man. Effingham
                        Message 11 of 13 , Oct 3, 2002
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                          "Lloyd, Eddie" wrote:

                          >
                          >
                          > Wouldn't be the first time. I'm so buried in that damned otogizoshi that I'm
                          > having trouble with modern English these days. <G>
                          >
                          > Effingham
                          >
                          >
                          > Modern English was a really good band, although I'm sick to death of hearing
                          > "Melt with you" on the 80's station.
                          >

                          You're a very sick man. <GGG>

                          Effingham
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