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Appropriate fabrics for Heian women's garb

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  • daviem01
    Greetings all, I am getting ready to attempt (yes, attempt is the operative word) to make myself some late Heian/early Kamakura women s garb for Mokurai-
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 26, 2002
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      Greetings all,

      I am getting ready to attempt (yes, attempt is the operative word) to
      make myself some late Heian/early Kamakura women's garb for Mokurai-
      bozu's Sword and Chrysanthemum event.

      With that in mind, does anyone have a preferred or recommended fabric
      for hitoe and uchigi? I'm thinking silk taffeta might be a good
      choice for outer robes because of its overall "crispness" (for the
      nagabakama I already have some dark-red cotton that would work well,
      although it's not quite as period).

      Any advice would be most humbly welcomed!

      Arigatou gozaimashita,
      Aine
    • Ii Saburou
      ... Well, organza would probably work well for the crispness factor mentioned before. It is hard to find the proper fabric for a decent price, but I believe
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 26, 2002
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        On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, daviem01 wrote:

        > With that in mind, does anyone have a preferred or recommended fabric
        > for hitoe and uchigi? I'm thinking silk taffeta might be a good
        > choice for outer robes because of its overall "crispness" (for the
        > nagabakama I already have some dark-red cotton that would work well,
        > although it's not quite as period).

        Well, organza would probably work well for the 'crispness' factor
        mentioned before.

        It is hard to find the proper fabric for a decent price, but I believe
        that Mokurai's lady, Matsuyama no Akiame-gozen would probably be a good
        source to ask about.

        -Ii
      • daviem01
        ... Organza is appropriately crisp, indeed, but I would almost expect it to be too thin for this purpose...I was leaning towards taffeta because it has more
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 26, 2002
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          > Well, organza would probably work well for the 'crispness' factor
          > mentioned before.

          Organza is appropriately crisp, indeed, but I would almost expect it
          to be too thin for this purpose...I was leaning towards taffeta
          because it has more body.

          > It is hard to find the proper fabric for a decent price, but I
          believe
          > that Mokurai's lady, Matsuyama no Akiame-gozen would probably be a
          good
          > source to ask about.

          I was planning to order from http://www.silkconnection.com, as even
          their taffeta is relatively inexpensive. I would welcome any other
          ideas, though!

          Many thanks,
          Aine
        • Ii Saburou
          ... The organza isn t really too thin when layered--but I don t know enough about taffeta to compare the two. Ideally you would use a nishiki brocade, but
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 26, 2002
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            On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, daviem01 wrote:

            > > Well, organza would probably work well for the 'crispness' factor
            > > mentioned before.
            >
            > Organza is appropriately crisp, indeed, but I would almost expect it
            > to be too thin for this purpose...I was leaning towards taffeta
            > because it has more body.

            The organza isn't really too thin when layered--but I don't know enough
            about taffeta to compare the two. Ideally you would use a nishiki
            brocade, but those can be pretty expensive.

            > > It is hard to find the proper fabric for a decent price, but I
            > believe
            > > that Mokurai's lady, Matsuyama no Akiame-gozen would probably be a
            > good
            > > source to ask about.
            >
            > I was planning to order from http://www.silkconnection.com, as even
            > their taffeta is relatively inexpensive. I would welcome any other
            > ideas, though!

            silkconnection.com is where I get most of my silks. I'd be interested to
            see how taffeta works.

            -Ii
          • daviem01
            ... enough ... Now that I look at it, silkconnection does have heaveier (14 momme) organza that might work well. I will let you know the results of any
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 26, 2002
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              > The organza isn't really too thin when layered--but I don't know
              enough
              > about taffeta to compare the two. Ideally you would use a nishiki
              > brocade, but those can be pretty expensive.

              Now that I look at it, silkconnection does have heaveier (14 momme)
              organza that might work well. I will let you know the results of any
              experimentation...

              Thanks,
              Aine
            • bfornshell
              Hi, Though I would jump in, take a look at this Japanese site, it is in English, and if you want to try something like this, it is made out of paper yes I
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 26, 2002
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                Hi, Though I would jump in, take a look at this Japanese site, it is
                in English, and if you want to try something like this, it is made
                out of "paper" yes I said paper, let me know. Bill

                --- In sca-jml@y..., "daviem01" <ellen.m.davis@a...> wrote:
                > > The organza isn't really too thin when layered--but I don't
                know
                > enough
                > > about taffeta to compare the two. Ideally you would use a
                nishiki
                > > brocade, but those can be pretty expensive.
                >
                > Now that I look at it, silkconnection does have heaveier (14
                momme)
                > organza that might work well. I will let you know the results of
                any
                > experimentation...
                >
                > Thanks,
                > Aine
              • bfornshell
                Sorry you have to type this stuff don t you. http://www.jgc.co.jp/waza/b4_washi/washi02.htm I hope I did that correct. ... know ... nishiki ...
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 26, 2002
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                  Sorry you have to type this stuff don't you.
                  http://www.jgc.co.jp/waza/b4_washi/washi02.htm I hope I
                  did that correct.

                  --- In sca-jml@y..., "daviem01" <ellen.m.davis@a...> wrote:
                  > > The organza isn't really too thin when layered--but I don't
                  know
                  > enough
                  > > about taffeta to compare the two. Ideally you would use a
                  nishiki
                  > > brocade, but those can be pretty expensive.
                  >
                  > Now that I look at it, silkconnection does have heaveier (14
                  momme)
                  > organza that might work well. I will let you know the results of
                  any
                  > experimentation...
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  > Aine
                • bfornshell
                  Sorry you have to type this stuff don t you. http://www.jgc.co.jp/waza/b4_washi/washi02.htm I hope I did that correct. ... know ... nishiki ...
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 26, 2002
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                    Sorry you have to type this stuff don't you.
                    http://www.jgc.co.jp/waza/b4_washi/washi02.htm I hope I
                    did that correct.

                    --- In sca-jml@y..., "daviem01" <ellen.m.davis@a...> wrote:
                    > > The organza isn't really too thin when layered--but I don't
                    know
                    > enough
                    > > about taffeta to compare the two. Ideally you would use a
                    nishiki
                    > > brocade, but those can be pretty expensive.
                    >
                    > Now that I look at it, silkconnection does have heaveier (14
                    momme)
                    > organza that might work well. I will let you know the results of
                    any
                    > experimentation...
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    > Aine
                  • Ii Saburou
                    I ve seen this site before; I m really interested to find out more about the type of clothing they made and when--everything I saw was from the Edo period or
                    Message 9 of 12 , Aug 27, 2002
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                      I've seen this site before; I'm really interested to find out more about
                      the type of clothing they made and when--everything I saw was from the Edo
                      period or later (but I wouldn't expect paper clothes to stay around too
                      long). It would definitely be one way of getting that 'crisp' look,
                      although I doubt that you can find paper fabric at affordable prices
                      today--if you find it is otherwise, pleae let me know!

                      -Ii

                      On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, bfornshell wrote:

                      > Hi, Though I would jump in, take a look at this Japanese site, it is
                      > in English, and if you want to try something like this, it is made
                      > out of "paper" yes I said paper, let me know. Bill
                      >
                      > --- In sca-jml@y..., "daviem01" <ellen.m.davis@a...> wrote:
                      > > > The organza isn't really too thin when layered--but I don't
                      > know
                      > > enough
                      > > > about taffeta to compare the two. Ideally you would use a
                      > nishiki
                      > > > brocade, but those can be pretty expensive.
                      > >
                      > > Now that I look at it, silkconnection does have heaveier (14
                      > momme)
                      > > organza that might work well. I will let you know the results of
                      > any
                      > > experimentation...
                      > >
                      > > Thanks,
                      > > Aine
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                    • bfornshell
                      You might want to make your own. Japanese urban legend says a Buddhist monk named Shoku needed a clean robe and made one out of paper in 988. Very good paper
                      Message 10 of 12 , Aug 27, 2002
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                        You might want to make your own. Japanese urban legend says
                        a Buddhist monk named Shoku needed a clean robe and made
                        one out of paper in 988. Very good paper was made during the
                        Heian period (794 - 1192). Kamiko is the name we call it. I have
                        made the paper and treated it, but make other things out of it.
                        Take a piece of brown paper bag about 12" square, wrinkle the
                        piece up and flatten it, do this a few times and you will see that
                        even this very cheap paper will get soft and supple. You can
                        sorta paint a corn starch/ water solution on the paper, let it dry,
                        then do the and wrinkle and smooth thing several times for
                        something that will work like fabric also. Good washi paper will
                        give you a very good piece of fabric. There is a little more to
                        making good paper into clothing, but it could be done and would
                        be authentic for your period. Bill




                        --- In sca-jml@y..., Ii Saburou <logan@m...> wrote:
                        > I've seen this site before; I'm really interested to find out more
                        about
                        > the type of clothing they made and when--everything I saw was
                        from the Edo
                        > period or later (but I wouldn't expect paper clothes to stay
                        around too
                        > long). It would definitely be one way of getting that 'crisp' look,
                        > although I doubt that you can find paper fabric at affordable
                        prices
                        > today--if you find it is otherwise, pleae let me know!
                        >
                        > -Ii
                        >
                        > On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, bfornshell wrote:
                        >
                        > > Hi, Though I would jump in, take a look at this Japanese site,
                        it is
                        > > in English, and if you want to try something like this, it is
                        made
                        > > out of "paper" yes I said paper, let me know. Bill
                        > >
                        > > --- In sca-jml@y..., "daviem01" <ellen.m.davis@a...> wrote:
                        > > > > The organza isn't really too thin when layered--but I don't
                        > > know
                        > > > enough
                        > > > > about taffeta to compare the two. Ideally you would use a
                        > > nishiki
                        > > > > brocade, but those can be pretty expensive.
                        > > >
                        > > > Now that I look at it, silkconnection does have heaveier (14
                        > > momme)
                        > > > organza that might work well. I will let you know the results
                        of
                        > > any
                        > > > experimentation...
                        > > >
                        > > > Thanks,
                        > > > Aine
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@y...
                        > >
                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        > >
                        > >
                      • daviem01
                        Fascinating! I had never heard of this before, at least for high- class clothing...I shall investigate more! Many thanks! Aine ... more ... look, ... results
                        Message 11 of 12 , Aug 27, 2002
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                          Fascinating! I had never heard of this before, at least for high-
                          class clothing...I shall investigate more!

                          Many thanks!
                          Aine

                          --- In sca-jml@y..., "bfornshell" <bfornshell@y...> wrote:
                          > You might want to make your own. Japanese urban legend says
                          > a Buddhist monk named Shoku needed a clean robe and made
                          > one out of paper in 988. Very good paper was made during the
                          > Heian period (794 - 1192). Kamiko is the name we call it. I have
                          > made the paper and treated it, but make other things out of it.
                          > Take a piece of brown paper bag about 12" square, wrinkle the
                          > piece up and flatten it, do this a few times and you will see that
                          > even this very cheap paper will get soft and supple. You can
                          > sorta paint a corn starch/ water solution on the paper, let it dry,
                          > then do the and wrinkle and smooth thing several times for
                          > something that will work like fabric also. Good washi paper will
                          > give you a very good piece of fabric. There is a little more to
                          > making good paper into clothing, but it could be done and would
                          > be authentic for your period. Bill
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In sca-jml@y..., Ii Saburou <logan@m...> wrote:
                          > > I've seen this site before; I'm really interested to find out
                          more
                          > about
                          > > the type of clothing they made and when--everything I saw was
                          > from the Edo
                          > > period or later (but I wouldn't expect paper clothes to stay
                          > around too
                          > > long). It would definitely be one way of getting that 'crisp'
                          look,
                          > > although I doubt that you can find paper fabric at affordable
                          > prices
                          > > today--if you find it is otherwise, pleae let me know!
                          > >
                          > > -Ii
                          > >
                          > > On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, bfornshell wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > Hi, Though I would jump in, take a look at this Japanese site,
                          > it is
                          > > > in English, and if you want to try something like this, it is
                          > made
                          > > > out of "paper" yes I said paper, let me know. Bill
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In sca-jml@y..., "daviem01" <ellen.m.davis@a...> wrote:
                          > > > > > The organza isn't really too thin when layered--but I don't
                          > > > know
                          > > > > enough
                          > > > > > about taffeta to compare the two. Ideally you would use a
                          > > > nishiki
                          > > > > > brocade, but those can be pretty expensive.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Now that I look at it, silkconnection does have heaveier (14
                          > > > momme)
                          > > > > organza that might work well. I will let you know the
                          results
                          > of
                          > > > any
                          > > > > experimentation...
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Thanks,
                          > > > > Aine
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@y...
                          > > >
                          > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          > > >
                          > > >
                        • lost90804
                          ... paper will ... Paper sources near the bottom with the links: http://pages.prodigy.net/fugu/sumi.html These papers are much tougher than Western paper, they
                          Message 12 of 12 , Aug 27, 2002
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                            --- In sca-jml@y..., "bfornshell" <bfornshell@y...> wrote: Good washi
                            paper will
                            > give you a very good piece of fabric.

                            Paper sources near the bottom with the links:
                            http://pages.prodigy.net/fugu/sumi.html

                            These papers are much tougher than Western paper, they stain like
                            crazy though!

                            Jim Eckman
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