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Re: [SCA-JML] Sushi

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  • Trella Ocelot
    Greetings to all, and nihao from a new person on the list! Excuse, please, my name...it s my all purpose online identity, and I write fanfics under it. Not to
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 19, 2002
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      Greetings to all, and nihao from a new person on the list!
      Excuse, please, my name...it's my all purpose online identity, and I write fanfics under it.
      Not to beat the expiring horse, but I concur that sushi is not really what we might call period. As I understand it, originally, fish were placed in between layers of rice for the purpose of pickling. Once the fish was pickled, the rice was discarded. (I can't imagine the rice would have been very tasty after that, anyway.) Sometime in early Edo period, someone(s) had the bright idea of not tossing the rice, or of serving the rice flavored with the same pickling solution they used on the fish.
      Hence, sushi.
      Onigiri (rice balls), *are* period. Hmm...need to get some molds for that, make it easier...hopefully I'm going to Philly later in the year...and there's a Chinatown there...hmmmm...
      Some food info for the Heian period can be found at...http://www.taleofmurasaki.com/foodspage.htm
      Purrs!
      Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...> wrote: As I understand it, most forms of sushi are not period. I believe that it was originally done quite late in period as a preservative for fish...vinegared rice and fish were pressed into a mold. Then, either VERY late period/early out of period, chirazush or scattered sushi came into being.

      You might try asking Lady Solveig about this...I think she has some actual references.

      Kiri
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Rebecca hull
      To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 9:27 AM
      Subject: [SCA-JML] Sushi



      I'm having some difficulty documenting sushi. Can
      anyone help?

      Rebekah


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    • Markejag@aol.com
      One possible type of sushi which may have existed in late period, battera-zushi, named after the portuguese word for ship (bateira), was the same pickled fish
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 19, 2002
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        One possible type of sushi which may have existed in late period,
        battera-zushi, named after the portuguese word for ship (bateira), was the
        same pickled fish (mackeral or funa, carp) which was pressed in a three part
        mold with vinegared rice, removed and eaten. It was the tail, which was
        still intact and sticking out of one end of the mold, which gave the
        appearance of the image of a galleon. (circa 1569). This is a traditional
        speculation and I can find no firm dates to justify this.

        Bun'ami


        > Greetings to all, and nihao from a new person on the list!
        > Excuse, please, my name...it's my all purpose online identity, and I write
        > fanfics under it.
        > Not to beat the expiring horse, but I concur that sushi is not really what
        > we might call period. As I understand it, originally, fish were placed in
        > between layers of rice for the purpose of pickling. Once the fish was
        > pickled, the rice was discarded. (I can't imagine the rice would have been
        > very tasty after that, anyway.) Sometime in early Edo period, someone(s)
        > had the bright idea of not tossing the rice, or of serving the rice
        > flavored with the same pickling solution they used on the fish.
        > Hence, sushi.
        > Onigiri (rice balls), *are* period. Hmm...need to get some molds for that,
        > make it easier...hopefully I'm going to Philly later in the year...and
        > there's a Chinatown there...hmmmm...
        > Some food info for the Heian period can be found
        > at...http://www.taleofmurasaki.com/foodspage.htm
        > Purrs!
        > Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...> wrote: As I understand it, most
        > forms of sushi are not period. I believe that it was originally done quite
        > late in period as a preservative for fish...vinegared rice and fish were
        > pressed into a mold. Then, either VERY late period/early out of period,
        > chirazush or scattered sushi came into being.
        >
        > You might try asking Lady Solveig about this...I think she has some actual
        > references.
        >
        > Kiri
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Rebecca hull
        > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 9:27 AM
        > Subject: [SCA-JML] Sushi
        >
        >
        >
        > I'm having some difficulty documenting sushi. Can
        > anyone help?
        >
        > Rebekah
        >




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nate Ledbetter
        ... If you are in Philly, there is an awesome Japanese/Korean grocery store just across the NJ border in Mt Laurel, I think. Don t remember the name, but it s
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 19, 2002
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          --- Trella Ocelot <trellaocelot@...> wrote:
          > Onigiri (rice balls), *are* period. Hmm...need to
          > get some molds for that, make it easier...hopefully
          > I'm going to Philly later in the year...and there's
          > a Chinatown there...hmmmm...
          > Some food info for the Heian period can be found
          > at...http://www.taleofmurasaki.com/foodspage.htm
          > Purrs!
          >

          If you are in Philly, there is an awesome
          Japanese/Korean grocery store just across the NJ
          border in Mt Laurel, I think. Don't remember the name,
          but it's by far the best pure Asian grocery I've
          seen--beats the pants off of Yaohan/Mitsuwa and
          Uwajimaya in that area, but doesn't have the other
          stuff (travel agency, bookstore, liquor store, etc.).

          Shonaigawa


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        • Jamie Norwood
          ... We d be pretty interested in this, if it ended up being closer than Mitsuwa. We rather like Mitsuwa, but it s a pretty hefty drive for groceries. Anyone
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 19, 2002
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            On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 12:38:20PM -0700, Nate Ledbetter wrote:
            >
            > --- Trella Ocelot <trellaocelot@...> wrote:
            > > Onigiri (rice balls), *are* period. Hmm...need to
            > > get some molds for that, make it easier...hopefully
            > > I'm going to Philly later in the year...and there's
            > > a Chinatown there...hmmmm...
            > > Some food info for the Heian period can be found
            > > at...http://www.taleofmurasaki.com/foodspage.htm
            > > Purrs!
            > >
            >
            > If you are in Philly, there is an awesome
            > Japanese/Korean grocery store just across the NJ
            > border in Mt Laurel, I think. Don't remember the name,
            > but it's by far the best pure Asian grocery I've
            > seen--beats the pants off of Yaohan/Mitsuwa and
            > Uwajimaya in that area, but doesn't have the other
            > stuff (travel agency, bookstore, liquor store, etc.).
            >
            > Shonaigawa

            We'd be pretty interested in this, if it ended up being closer
            than Mitsuwa. We rather like Mitsuwa, but it's a pretty hefty drive
            for groceries. Anyone have more details on this store?

            Jamie

            >
            >
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          • Ii Saburou
            I have not seen sushi documented to period. I have seen the use of vinegar to preserve the sushi documented to around the beginning of the Edo period, which
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 19, 2002
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              I have not seen sushi documented to period. I have seen the use of
              vinegar to preserve the sushi documented to around the beginning of the
              Edo period, which is just outside of period. "Ryori Monogatari" is
              outside of period, but does include sushi as a method of eating certain
              types of fish.

              If they did have it, my guess is that you had to be pretty close to the
              source in order to keep it fresh enough, but I am not sure.

              -Ii

              On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Rebecca hull wrote:

              >
              > I'm having some difficulty documenting sushi. Can
              > anyone help?
              >
              > Rebekah
              >
              >
              > __________________________________________________
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
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              >
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              >
              >
            • Ii Saburou
              ... They make molds for onigiri? I always thought it was just done by hand. -Ii
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 19, 2002
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                On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Trella Ocelot wrote:

                > Onigiri (rice balls), *are* period. Hmm...need to get some molds for that, make it easier...hopefully I'm going to Philly later in the year...and there's a Chinatown there...hmmmm...

                They make molds for onigiri? I always thought it was just done by hand.

                -Ii
              • Nate Ledbetter
                ... Like I said, I believe it s in Mt Laurel, across the border from Philly. My wife s relatives live there, and took us when we went. I ll see if I can track
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 19, 2002
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                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > If you are in Philly, there is an awesome
                  > > Japanese/Korean grocery store just across the NJ
                  > > border in Mt Laurel, I think. Don't remember the
                  > name,
                  > > but it's by far the best pure Asian grocery I've
                  > > seen--beats the pants off of Yaohan/Mitsuwa and
                  > > Uwajimaya in that area, but doesn't have the other
                  > > stuff (travel agency, bookstore, liquor store,
                  > etc.).
                  > >
                  > > Shonaigawa
                  >
                  > We'd be pretty interested in this, if it ended up
                  > being closer
                  > than Mitsuwa. We rather like Mitsuwa, but it's a
                  > pretty hefty drive
                  > for groceries. Anyone have more details on this
                  > store?
                  >
                  > Jamie
                  >

                  Like I said, I believe it's in Mt Laurel, across the
                  border from Philly. My wife's relatives live there,
                  and took us when we went. I'll see if I can track down
                  the name. It's actually BEHIND a Korean restaurant
                  (darn good one too) and you can't really see it, since
                  it's also UNDER it--it's on a hill, and you go behind
                  the restaurant and down the hill, and there it is.

                  That was probably more confusing than necessary, but
                  like I said I'll try to track down the name and stuff.
                  Haven't been to any East-Coast Mitsuwa, just the one
                  that used to be a Yaohan in Chicago. Like I said, this
                  place didn't quite have the variety of other things,
                  but for groceries it certainly kicked oshiri!

                  Shonaigawa

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                • Elaine Koogler
                  This is a great site....thanks so very much for sharing it with us. I ve bookmarked it and plan to pass it on to others. What you say seems to correspond
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 20, 2002
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                    This is a great site....thanks so very much for sharing it with us. I've bookmarked it and plan to pass it on to others. What you say seems to correspond with what Ii-dono has found in the manuscript he's translating, though it comes from a much later period, 1643 or so. But this may even be helpful to him as he works on the translation.

                    Thanks again!!!

                    Kiri
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Not to beat the expiring horse, but I concur that sushi is not really what we might call period. As I understand it, originally, fish were placed in between layers of rice for the purpose of pickling. Once the fish was pickled, the rice was discarded. (I can't imagine the rice would have been very tasty after that, anyway.) Sometime in early Edo period, someone(s) had the bright idea of not tossing the rice, or of serving the rice flavored with the same pickling solution they used on the fish.
                    Hence, sushi.
                    Onigiri (rice balls), *are* period. Hmm...need to get some molds for that, make it easier...hopefully I'm going to Philly later in the year...and there's a Chinatown there...hmmmm...
                    Some food info for the Heian period can be found at...http://www.taleofmurasaki.com/foodspage.htm
                    Purrs!



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Elaine Koogler
                    Could be. It kind of fits the description of the pickled rice/fish combo pressed into a mold that I mentioned in my post. Kiri ... One possible type of sushi
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 20, 2002
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                      Could be. It kind of fits the description of the pickled rice/fish combo pressed into a mold that I mentioned in my post.

                      Kiri
                      ----- Original Message -----

                      One possible type of sushi which may have existed in late period,
                      battera-zushi, named after the portuguese word for ship (bateira), was the
                      same pickled fish (mackeral or funa, carp) which was pressed in a three part
                      mold with vinegared rice, removed and eaten. It was the tail, which was
                      still intact and sticking out of one end of the mold, which gave the
                      appearance of the image of a galleon. (circa 1569). This is a traditional
                      speculation and I can find no firm dates to justify this.

                      Bun'ami





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Trella Ocelot
                      Thanks for the tip! However, I expect I ll be pretty much limited to the downtown and historic Philly area, since I m going on a tour bus...beats driving all
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 23, 2002
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                        Thanks for the tip! However, I expect I'll be pretty much limited to the downtown and historic Philly area, since I'm going on a tour bus...beats driving all on my own...
                        Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:
                        --- Trella Ocelot <trellaocelot@...> wrote:
                        > Onigiri (rice balls), *are* period. Hmm...need to
                        > get some molds for that, make it easier...hopefully
                        > I'm going to Philly later in the year...and there's
                        > a Chinatown there...hmmmm...
                        > Some food info for the Heian period can be found
                        > at...http://www.taleofmurasaki.com/foodspage.htm
                        > Purrs!
                        >

                        If you are in Philly, there is an awesome
                        Japanese/Korean grocery store just across the NJ
                        border in Mt Laurel, I think. Don't remember the name,
                        but it's by far the best pure Asian grocery I've
                        seen--beats the pants off of Yaohan/Mitsuwa and
                        Uwajimaya in that area, but doesn't have the other
                        stuff (travel agency, bookstore, liquor store, etc.).

                        Shonaigawa


                        __________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
                        http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

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                      • Trella Ocelot
                        Thanks! It s got lots of useful info of the Heian era, and it s by Lisa Dalby, author of Geisha , Kimono , and...guess what... Tale of Murasaki , which *is*
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 23, 2002
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                          Thanks! It's got lots of useful info of the Heian era, and it's by Lisa Dalby, author of "Geisha", "Kimono", and...guess what..."Tale of Murasaki", which *is* a good book, and I recommend it to any interested in this particular time period. Now, if only she'd give the same treatment to my main babe...errr, gomen, *lady* of the period, Sei Shonagon...
                          Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...> wrote: This is a great site....thanks so very much for sharing it with us. I've bookmarked it and plan to pass it on to others. What you say seems to correspond with what Ii-dono has found in the manuscript he's translating, though it comes from a much later period, 1643 or so. But this may even be helpful to him as he works on the translation.

                          Thanks again!!!




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                        • Fyg Adakar - but my friends call me...
                          In traditional sushi you don t often see American rolls as it s mainly nigiri sushi, sashimi, and hand rolls. I m not saying they don t do maki rolls, but
                          Message 12 of 15 , Feb 25 10:09 PM
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                            In traditional sushi you don't often see American "rolls" as it's mainly
                            nigiri sushi, sashimi, and hand rolls. I'm not saying they don't do maki
                            rolls, but the premise is often to use traditional ingredients in maki with
                            the inclusion of some local ingredients if they fall close enough to
                            traditional fare.

                            The traditional chefs that I've spent time with say that when you go for
                            tradtional sushi there is a specific understanding of traditional fare and
                            to ask for something otherwise (like a California or Boston roll) would mean
                            you either question the quality of the ingredients the chef uses or question
                            tradition - in both cases you would be asked to leave the establishment.

                            I think the 2 biggie modern day sushi where local ingredients were
                            incorporated are perilla-leaf and pickled-gourd sushi but in those cases it
                            was when the chefs took ingredients from existing Japanese cuisine and put
                            into sushi form.



                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Horatius at the Bridge" <horatius314@...>

                            > Would it be appropriate to modify traditional sushi to reflect local
                            > ingredients?
                            >
                            > I've seen the various incarnations of modern sushi available at the local
                            > deli and Japanese resturaunts. I've even seen 'sushi' (please note the
                            quote
                            > marks) variants such as the Arkansas roll, the Boston roll and the
                            > all-pervasive California roll. I've even seen and eaten the rather tasty
                            > North Dakota roll. I understand these are modern versions. But were there
                            > local interpretations of sushi that could be served in period?
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