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Re: [SCA-JML] Sushi

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  • Elaine Koogler
    As I understand it, most forms of sushi are not period. I believe that it was originally done quite late in period as a preservative for fish...vinegared rice
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 19 8:07 AM
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      As I understand it, most forms of sushi are not period. I believe that it was originally done quite late in period as a preservative for fish...vinegared rice and fish were pressed into a mold. Then, either VERY late period/early out of period, chirazush or scattered sushi came into being.

      You might try asking Lady Solveig about this...I think she has some actual references.

      Kiri
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Rebecca hull
      To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 9:27 AM
      Subject: [SCA-JML] Sushi



      I'm having some difficulty documenting sushi. Can
      anyone help?

      Rebekah


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    • Trella Ocelot
      Greetings to all, and nihao from a new person on the list! Excuse, please, my name...it s my all purpose online identity, and I write fanfics under it. Not to
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 19 9:49 AM
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        Greetings to all, and nihao from a new person on the list!
        Excuse, please, my name...it's my all purpose online identity, and I write fanfics under it.
        Not to beat the expiring horse, but I concur that sushi is not really what we might call period. As I understand it, originally, fish were placed in between layers of rice for the purpose of pickling. Once the fish was pickled, the rice was discarded. (I can't imagine the rice would have been very tasty after that, anyway.) Sometime in early Edo period, someone(s) had the bright idea of not tossing the rice, or of serving the rice flavored with the same pickling solution they used on the fish.
        Hence, sushi.
        Onigiri (rice balls), *are* period. Hmm...need to get some molds for that, make it easier...hopefully I'm going to Philly later in the year...and there's a Chinatown there...hmmmm...
        Some food info for the Heian period can be found at...http://www.taleofmurasaki.com/foodspage.htm
        Purrs!
        Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...> wrote: As I understand it, most forms of sushi are not period. I believe that it was originally done quite late in period as a preservative for fish...vinegared rice and fish were pressed into a mold. Then, either VERY late period/early out of period, chirazush or scattered sushi came into being.

        You might try asking Lady Solveig about this...I think she has some actual references.

        Kiri
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Rebecca hull
        To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 9:27 AM
        Subject: [SCA-JML] Sushi



        I'm having some difficulty documenting sushi. Can
        anyone help?

        Rebekah


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      • Markejag@aol.com
        One possible type of sushi which may have existed in late period, battera-zushi, named after the portuguese word for ship (bateira), was the same pickled fish
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 19 12:20 PM
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          One possible type of sushi which may have existed in late period,
          battera-zushi, named after the portuguese word for ship (bateira), was the
          same pickled fish (mackeral or funa, carp) which was pressed in a three part
          mold with vinegared rice, removed and eaten. It was the tail, which was
          still intact and sticking out of one end of the mold, which gave the
          appearance of the image of a galleon. (circa 1569). This is a traditional
          speculation and I can find no firm dates to justify this.

          Bun'ami


          > Greetings to all, and nihao from a new person on the list!
          > Excuse, please, my name...it's my all purpose online identity, and I write
          > fanfics under it.
          > Not to beat the expiring horse, but I concur that sushi is not really what
          > we might call period. As I understand it, originally, fish were placed in
          > between layers of rice for the purpose of pickling. Once the fish was
          > pickled, the rice was discarded. (I can't imagine the rice would have been
          > very tasty after that, anyway.) Sometime in early Edo period, someone(s)
          > had the bright idea of not tossing the rice, or of serving the rice
          > flavored with the same pickling solution they used on the fish.
          > Hence, sushi.
          > Onigiri (rice balls), *are* period. Hmm...need to get some molds for that,
          > make it easier...hopefully I'm going to Philly later in the year...and
          > there's a Chinatown there...hmmmm...
          > Some food info for the Heian period can be found
          > at...http://www.taleofmurasaki.com/foodspage.htm
          > Purrs!
          > Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...> wrote: As I understand it, most
          > forms of sushi are not period. I believe that it was originally done quite
          > late in period as a preservative for fish...vinegared rice and fish were
          > pressed into a mold. Then, either VERY late period/early out of period,
          > chirazush or scattered sushi came into being.
          >
          > You might try asking Lady Solveig about this...I think she has some actual
          > references.
          >
          > Kiri
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Rebecca hull
          > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 9:27 AM
          > Subject: [SCA-JML] Sushi
          >
          >
          >
          > I'm having some difficulty documenting sushi. Can
          > anyone help?
          >
          > Rebekah
          >




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nate Ledbetter
          ... If you are in Philly, there is an awesome Japanese/Korean grocery store just across the NJ border in Mt Laurel, I think. Don t remember the name, but it s
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 19 12:38 PM
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            --- Trella Ocelot <trellaocelot@...> wrote:
            > Onigiri (rice balls), *are* period. Hmm...need to
            > get some molds for that, make it easier...hopefully
            > I'm going to Philly later in the year...and there's
            > a Chinatown there...hmmmm...
            > Some food info for the Heian period can be found
            > at...http://www.taleofmurasaki.com/foodspage.htm
            > Purrs!
            >

            If you are in Philly, there is an awesome
            Japanese/Korean grocery store just across the NJ
            border in Mt Laurel, I think. Don't remember the name,
            but it's by far the best pure Asian grocery I've
            seen--beats the pants off of Yaohan/Mitsuwa and
            Uwajimaya in that area, but doesn't have the other
            stuff (travel agency, bookstore, liquor store, etc.).

            Shonaigawa


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          • Jamie Norwood
            ... We d be pretty interested in this, if it ended up being closer than Mitsuwa. We rather like Mitsuwa, but it s a pretty hefty drive for groceries. Anyone
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 19 12:56 PM
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              On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 12:38:20PM -0700, Nate Ledbetter wrote:
              >
              > --- Trella Ocelot <trellaocelot@...> wrote:
              > > Onigiri (rice balls), *are* period. Hmm...need to
              > > get some molds for that, make it easier...hopefully
              > > I'm going to Philly later in the year...and there's
              > > a Chinatown there...hmmmm...
              > > Some food info for the Heian period can be found
              > > at...http://www.taleofmurasaki.com/foodspage.htm
              > > Purrs!
              > >
              >
              > If you are in Philly, there is an awesome
              > Japanese/Korean grocery store just across the NJ
              > border in Mt Laurel, I think. Don't remember the name,
              > but it's by far the best pure Asian grocery I've
              > seen--beats the pants off of Yaohan/Mitsuwa and
              > Uwajimaya in that area, but doesn't have the other
              > stuff (travel agency, bookstore, liquor store, etc.).
              >
              > Shonaigawa

              We'd be pretty interested in this, if it ended up being closer
              than Mitsuwa. We rather like Mitsuwa, but it's a pretty hefty drive
              for groceries. Anyone have more details on this store?

              Jamie

              >
              >
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            • Ii Saburou
              I have not seen sushi documented to period. I have seen the use of vinegar to preserve the sushi documented to around the beginning of the Edo period, which
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 19 2:48 PM
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                I have not seen sushi documented to period. I have seen the use of
                vinegar to preserve the sushi documented to around the beginning of the
                Edo period, which is just outside of period. "Ryori Monogatari" is
                outside of period, but does include sushi as a method of eating certain
                types of fish.

                If they did have it, my guess is that you had to be pretty close to the
                source in order to keep it fresh enough, but I am not sure.

                -Ii

                On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Rebecca hull wrote:

                >
                > I'm having some difficulty documenting sushi. Can
                > anyone help?
                >
                > Rebekah
                >
                >
                > __________________________________________________
                > Do You Yahoo!?
                > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
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                >
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                >
                >
              • Ii Saburou
                ... They make molds for onigiri? I always thought it was just done by hand. -Ii
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 19 2:53 PM
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                  On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Trella Ocelot wrote:

                  > Onigiri (rice balls), *are* period. Hmm...need to get some molds for that, make it easier...hopefully I'm going to Philly later in the year...and there's a Chinatown there...hmmmm...

                  They make molds for onigiri? I always thought it was just done by hand.

                  -Ii
                • Nate Ledbetter
                  ... Like I said, I believe it s in Mt Laurel, across the border from Philly. My wife s relatives live there, and took us when we went. I ll see if I can track
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 19 3:31 PM
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                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > If you are in Philly, there is an awesome
                    > > Japanese/Korean grocery store just across the NJ
                    > > border in Mt Laurel, I think. Don't remember the
                    > name,
                    > > but it's by far the best pure Asian grocery I've
                    > > seen--beats the pants off of Yaohan/Mitsuwa and
                    > > Uwajimaya in that area, but doesn't have the other
                    > > stuff (travel agency, bookstore, liquor store,
                    > etc.).
                    > >
                    > > Shonaigawa
                    >
                    > We'd be pretty interested in this, if it ended up
                    > being closer
                    > than Mitsuwa. We rather like Mitsuwa, but it's a
                    > pretty hefty drive
                    > for groceries. Anyone have more details on this
                    > store?
                    >
                    > Jamie
                    >

                    Like I said, I believe it's in Mt Laurel, across the
                    border from Philly. My wife's relatives live there,
                    and took us when we went. I'll see if I can track down
                    the name. It's actually BEHIND a Korean restaurant
                    (darn good one too) and you can't really see it, since
                    it's also UNDER it--it's on a hill, and you go behind
                    the restaurant and down the hill, and there it is.

                    That was probably more confusing than necessary, but
                    like I said I'll try to track down the name and stuff.
                    Haven't been to any East-Coast Mitsuwa, just the one
                    that used to be a Yaohan in Chicago. Like I said, this
                    place didn't quite have the variety of other things,
                    but for groceries it certainly kicked oshiri!

                    Shonaigawa

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                  • Elaine Koogler
                    This is a great site....thanks so very much for sharing it with us. I ve bookmarked it and plan to pass it on to others. What you say seems to correspond
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 20 6:32 AM
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                      This is a great site....thanks so very much for sharing it with us. I've bookmarked it and plan to pass it on to others. What you say seems to correspond with what Ii-dono has found in the manuscript he's translating, though it comes from a much later period, 1643 or so. But this may even be helpful to him as he works on the translation.

                      Thanks again!!!

                      Kiri
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Not to beat the expiring horse, but I concur that sushi is not really what we might call period. As I understand it, originally, fish were placed in between layers of rice for the purpose of pickling. Once the fish was pickled, the rice was discarded. (I can't imagine the rice would have been very tasty after that, anyway.) Sometime in early Edo period, someone(s) had the bright idea of not tossing the rice, or of serving the rice flavored with the same pickling solution they used on the fish.
                      Hence, sushi.
                      Onigiri (rice balls), *are* period. Hmm...need to get some molds for that, make it easier...hopefully I'm going to Philly later in the year...and there's a Chinatown there...hmmmm...
                      Some food info for the Heian period can be found at...http://www.taleofmurasaki.com/foodspage.htm
                      Purrs!



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Elaine Koogler
                      Could be. It kind of fits the description of the pickled rice/fish combo pressed into a mold that I mentioned in my post. Kiri ... One possible type of sushi
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 20 6:41 AM
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                        Could be. It kind of fits the description of the pickled rice/fish combo pressed into a mold that I mentioned in my post.

                        Kiri
                        ----- Original Message -----

                        One possible type of sushi which may have existed in late period,
                        battera-zushi, named after the portuguese word for ship (bateira), was the
                        same pickled fish (mackeral or funa, carp) which was pressed in a three part
                        mold with vinegared rice, removed and eaten. It was the tail, which was
                        still intact and sticking out of one end of the mold, which gave the
                        appearance of the image of a galleon. (circa 1569). This is a traditional
                        speculation and I can find no firm dates to justify this.

                        Bun'ami





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Trella Ocelot
                        Thanks for the tip! However, I expect I ll be pretty much limited to the downtown and historic Philly area, since I m going on a tour bus...beats driving all
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 23 12:48 PM
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                          Thanks for the tip! However, I expect I'll be pretty much limited to the downtown and historic Philly area, since I'm going on a tour bus...beats driving all on my own...
                          Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:
                          --- Trella Ocelot <trellaocelot@...> wrote:
                          > Onigiri (rice balls), *are* period. Hmm...need to
                          > get some molds for that, make it easier...hopefully
                          > I'm going to Philly later in the year...and there's
                          > a Chinatown there...hmmmm...
                          > Some food info for the Heian period can be found
                          > at...http://www.taleofmurasaki.com/foodspage.htm
                          > Purrs!
                          >

                          If you are in Philly, there is an awesome
                          Japanese/Korean grocery store just across the NJ
                          border in Mt Laurel, I think. Don't remember the name,
                          but it's by far the best pure Asian grocery I've
                          seen--beats the pants off of Yaohan/Mitsuwa and
                          Uwajimaya in that area, but doesn't have the other
                          stuff (travel agency, bookstore, liquor store, etc.).

                          Shonaigawa


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                        • Trella Ocelot
                          Thanks! It s got lots of useful info of the Heian era, and it s by Lisa Dalby, author of Geisha , Kimono , and...guess what... Tale of Murasaki , which *is*
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 23 12:53 PM
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                            Thanks! It's got lots of useful info of the Heian era, and it's by Lisa Dalby, author of "Geisha", "Kimono", and...guess what..."Tale of Murasaki", which *is* a good book, and I recommend it to any interested in this particular time period. Now, if only she'd give the same treatment to my main babe...errr, gomen, *lady* of the period, Sei Shonagon...
                            Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...> wrote: This is a great site....thanks so very much for sharing it with us. I've bookmarked it and plan to pass it on to others. What you say seems to correspond with what Ii-dono has found in the manuscript he's translating, though it comes from a much later period, 1643 or so. But this may even be helpful to him as he works on the translation.

                            Thanks again!!!




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                          • Fyg Adakar - but my friends call me...
                            In traditional sushi you don t often see American rolls as it s mainly nigiri sushi, sashimi, and hand rolls. I m not saying they don t do maki rolls, but
                            Message 13 of 15 , Feb 25, 2005
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                              In traditional sushi you don't often see American "rolls" as it's mainly
                              nigiri sushi, sashimi, and hand rolls. I'm not saying they don't do maki
                              rolls, but the premise is often to use traditional ingredients in maki with
                              the inclusion of some local ingredients if they fall close enough to
                              traditional fare.

                              The traditional chefs that I've spent time with say that when you go for
                              tradtional sushi there is a specific understanding of traditional fare and
                              to ask for something otherwise (like a California or Boston roll) would mean
                              you either question the quality of the ingredients the chef uses or question
                              tradition - in both cases you would be asked to leave the establishment.

                              I think the 2 biggie modern day sushi where local ingredients were
                              incorporated are perilla-leaf and pickled-gourd sushi but in those cases it
                              was when the chefs took ingredients from existing Japanese cuisine and put
                              into sushi form.



                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Horatius at the Bridge" <horatius314@...>

                              > Would it be appropriate to modify traditional sushi to reflect local
                              > ingredients?
                              >
                              > I've seen the various incarnations of modern sushi available at the local
                              > deli and Japanese resturaunts. I've even seen 'sushi' (please note the
                              quote
                              > marks) variants such as the Arkansas roll, the Boston roll and the
                              > all-pervasive California roll. I've even seen and eaten the rather tasty
                              > North Dakota roll. I understand these are modern versions. But were there
                              > local interpretations of sushi that could be served in period?
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