Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [SCA-JML] Sushi

Expand Messages
  • Ron Martino
    ... That would be because it appears that most forms of sushi, including the best known ones, are from the Tokugawa era. Sorry, I like sushi, too, and it seems
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 19, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      Rebecca hull wrote:
      >
      > I'm having some difficulty documenting sushi. Can
      > anyone help?
      >
      > Rebekah

      That would be because it appears that most forms of sushi, including
      the best known ones, are from the Tokugawa era.

      Sorry, I like sushi, too, and it seems so quintessentially Japanese,
      but it's post-period.

      Yumitori
      --

      It is our attitude toward free thought and free expression that will
      determine our fate. There must be no limit on the range of temperate
      discussion, no limits on thought. No subject must be taboo. No censor
      must preside at our assemblies.
      William O. Douglas

      yumitori(AT)montana(DOT)com
    • Elaine Koogler
      As I understand it, most forms of sushi are not period. I believe that it was originally done quite late in period as a preservative for fish...vinegared rice
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 19, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        As I understand it, most forms of sushi are not period. I believe that it was originally done quite late in period as a preservative for fish...vinegared rice and fish were pressed into a mold. Then, either VERY late period/early out of period, chirazush or scattered sushi came into being.

        You might try asking Lady Solveig about this...I think she has some actual references.

        Kiri
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Rebecca hull
        To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 9:27 AM
        Subject: [SCA-JML] Sushi



        I'm having some difficulty documenting sushi. Can
        anyone help?

        Rebekah


        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
        http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

        UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Trella Ocelot
        Greetings to all, and nihao from a new person on the list! Excuse, please, my name...it s my all purpose online identity, and I write fanfics under it. Not to
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 19, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          Greetings to all, and nihao from a new person on the list!
          Excuse, please, my name...it's my all purpose online identity, and I write fanfics under it.
          Not to beat the expiring horse, but I concur that sushi is not really what we might call period. As I understand it, originally, fish were placed in between layers of rice for the purpose of pickling. Once the fish was pickled, the rice was discarded. (I can't imagine the rice would have been very tasty after that, anyway.) Sometime in early Edo period, someone(s) had the bright idea of not tossing the rice, or of serving the rice flavored with the same pickling solution they used on the fish.
          Hence, sushi.
          Onigiri (rice balls), *are* period. Hmm...need to get some molds for that, make it easier...hopefully I'm going to Philly later in the year...and there's a Chinatown there...hmmmm...
          Some food info for the Heian period can be found at...http://www.taleofmurasaki.com/foodspage.htm
          Purrs!
          Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...> wrote: As I understand it, most forms of sushi are not period. I believe that it was originally done quite late in period as a preservative for fish...vinegared rice and fish were pressed into a mold. Then, either VERY late period/early out of period, chirazush or scattered sushi came into being.

          You might try asking Lady Solveig about this...I think she has some actual references.

          Kiri
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Rebecca hull
          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 9:27 AM
          Subject: [SCA-JML] Sushi



          I'm having some difficulty documenting sushi. Can
          anyone help?

          Rebekah


          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
          http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

          UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


          UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



          ---------------------------------
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Markejag@aol.com
          One possible type of sushi which may have existed in late period, battera-zushi, named after the portuguese word for ship (bateira), was the same pickled fish
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 19, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            One possible type of sushi which may have existed in late period,
            battera-zushi, named after the portuguese word for ship (bateira), was the
            same pickled fish (mackeral or funa, carp) which was pressed in a three part
            mold with vinegared rice, removed and eaten. It was the tail, which was
            still intact and sticking out of one end of the mold, which gave the
            appearance of the image of a galleon. (circa 1569). This is a traditional
            speculation and I can find no firm dates to justify this.

            Bun'ami


            > Greetings to all, and nihao from a new person on the list!
            > Excuse, please, my name...it's my all purpose online identity, and I write
            > fanfics under it.
            > Not to beat the expiring horse, but I concur that sushi is not really what
            > we might call period. As I understand it, originally, fish were placed in
            > between layers of rice for the purpose of pickling. Once the fish was
            > pickled, the rice was discarded. (I can't imagine the rice would have been
            > very tasty after that, anyway.) Sometime in early Edo period, someone(s)
            > had the bright idea of not tossing the rice, or of serving the rice
            > flavored with the same pickling solution they used on the fish.
            > Hence, sushi.
            > Onigiri (rice balls), *are* period. Hmm...need to get some molds for that,
            > make it easier...hopefully I'm going to Philly later in the year...and
            > there's a Chinatown there...hmmmm...
            > Some food info for the Heian period can be found
            > at...http://www.taleofmurasaki.com/foodspage.htm
            > Purrs!
            > Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...> wrote: As I understand it, most
            > forms of sushi are not period. I believe that it was originally done quite
            > late in period as a preservative for fish...vinegared rice and fish were
            > pressed into a mold. Then, either VERY late period/early out of period,
            > chirazush or scattered sushi came into being.
            >
            > You might try asking Lady Solveig about this...I think she has some actual
            > references.
            >
            > Kiri
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Rebecca hull
            > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 9:27 AM
            > Subject: [SCA-JML] Sushi
            >
            >
            >
            > I'm having some difficulty documenting sushi. Can
            > anyone help?
            >
            > Rebekah
            >




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Nate Ledbetter
            ... If you are in Philly, there is an awesome Japanese/Korean grocery store just across the NJ border in Mt Laurel, I think. Don t remember the name, but it s
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 19, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              --- Trella Ocelot <trellaocelot@...> wrote:
              > Onigiri (rice balls), *are* period. Hmm...need to
              > get some molds for that, make it easier...hopefully
              > I'm going to Philly later in the year...and there's
              > a Chinatown there...hmmmm...
              > Some food info for the Heian period can be found
              > at...http://www.taleofmurasaki.com/foodspage.htm
              > Purrs!
              >

              If you are in Philly, there is an awesome
              Japanese/Korean grocery store just across the NJ
              border in Mt Laurel, I think. Don't remember the name,
              but it's by far the best pure Asian grocery I've
              seen--beats the pants off of Yaohan/Mitsuwa and
              Uwajimaya in that area, but doesn't have the other
              stuff (travel agency, bookstore, liquor store, etc.).

              Shonaigawa


              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
              http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
            • Jamie Norwood
              ... We d be pretty interested in this, if it ended up being closer than Mitsuwa. We rather like Mitsuwa, but it s a pretty hefty drive for groceries. Anyone
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 19, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 12:38:20PM -0700, Nate Ledbetter wrote:
                >
                > --- Trella Ocelot <trellaocelot@...> wrote:
                > > Onigiri (rice balls), *are* period. Hmm...need to
                > > get some molds for that, make it easier...hopefully
                > > I'm going to Philly later in the year...and there's
                > > a Chinatown there...hmmmm...
                > > Some food info for the Heian period can be found
                > > at...http://www.taleofmurasaki.com/foodspage.htm
                > > Purrs!
                > >
                >
                > If you are in Philly, there is an awesome
                > Japanese/Korean grocery store just across the NJ
                > border in Mt Laurel, I think. Don't remember the name,
                > but it's by far the best pure Asian grocery I've
                > seen--beats the pants off of Yaohan/Mitsuwa and
                > Uwajimaya in that area, but doesn't have the other
                > stuff (travel agency, bookstore, liquor store, etc.).
                >
                > Shonaigawa

                We'd be pretty interested in this, if it ended up being closer
                than Mitsuwa. We rather like Mitsuwa, but it's a pretty hefty drive
                for groceries. Anyone have more details on this store?

                Jamie

                >
                >
                > __________________________________________________
                > Do You Yahoo!?
                > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
                > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
                >
                >
                > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
              • Ii Saburou
                I have not seen sushi documented to period. I have seen the use of vinegar to preserve the sushi documented to around the beginning of the Edo period, which
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 19, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  I have not seen sushi documented to period. I have seen the use of
                  vinegar to preserve the sushi documented to around the beginning of the
                  Edo period, which is just outside of period. "Ryori Monogatari" is
                  outside of period, but does include sushi as a method of eating certain
                  types of fish.

                  If they did have it, my guess is that you had to be pretty close to the
                  source in order to keep it fresh enough, but I am not sure.

                  -Ii

                  On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Rebecca hull wrote:

                  >
                  > I'm having some difficulty documenting sushi. Can
                  > anyone help?
                  >
                  > Rebekah
                  >
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________
                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
                  > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
                  >
                  >
                  > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • Ii Saburou
                  ... They make molds for onigiri? I always thought it was just done by hand. -Ii
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 19, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Trella Ocelot wrote:

                    > Onigiri (rice balls), *are* period. Hmm...need to get some molds for that, make it easier...hopefully I'm going to Philly later in the year...and there's a Chinatown there...hmmmm...

                    They make molds for onigiri? I always thought it was just done by hand.

                    -Ii
                  • Nate Ledbetter
                    ... Like I said, I believe it s in Mt Laurel, across the border from Philly. My wife s relatives live there, and took us when we went. I ll see if I can track
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 19, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > If you are in Philly, there is an awesome
                      > > Japanese/Korean grocery store just across the NJ
                      > > border in Mt Laurel, I think. Don't remember the
                      > name,
                      > > but it's by far the best pure Asian grocery I've
                      > > seen--beats the pants off of Yaohan/Mitsuwa and
                      > > Uwajimaya in that area, but doesn't have the other
                      > > stuff (travel agency, bookstore, liquor store,
                      > etc.).
                      > >
                      > > Shonaigawa
                      >
                      > We'd be pretty interested in this, if it ended up
                      > being closer
                      > than Mitsuwa. We rather like Mitsuwa, but it's a
                      > pretty hefty drive
                      > for groceries. Anyone have more details on this
                      > store?
                      >
                      > Jamie
                      >

                      Like I said, I believe it's in Mt Laurel, across the
                      border from Philly. My wife's relatives live there,
                      and took us when we went. I'll see if I can track down
                      the name. It's actually BEHIND a Korean restaurant
                      (darn good one too) and you can't really see it, since
                      it's also UNDER it--it's on a hill, and you go behind
                      the restaurant and down the hill, and there it is.

                      That was probably more confusing than necessary, but
                      like I said I'll try to track down the name and stuff.
                      Haven't been to any East-Coast Mitsuwa, just the one
                      that used to be a Yaohan in Chicago. Like I said, this
                      place didn't quite have the variety of other things,
                      but for groceries it certainly kicked oshiri!

                      Shonaigawa

                      __________________________________________________
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
                      http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
                    • Elaine Koogler
                      This is a great site....thanks so very much for sharing it with us. I ve bookmarked it and plan to pass it on to others. What you say seems to correspond
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 20, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        This is a great site....thanks so very much for sharing it with us. I've bookmarked it and plan to pass it on to others. What you say seems to correspond with what Ii-dono has found in the manuscript he's translating, though it comes from a much later period, 1643 or so. But this may even be helpful to him as he works on the translation.

                        Thanks again!!!

                        Kiri
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Not to beat the expiring horse, but I concur that sushi is not really what we might call period. As I understand it, originally, fish were placed in between layers of rice for the purpose of pickling. Once the fish was pickled, the rice was discarded. (I can't imagine the rice would have been very tasty after that, anyway.) Sometime in early Edo period, someone(s) had the bright idea of not tossing the rice, or of serving the rice flavored with the same pickling solution they used on the fish.
                        Hence, sushi.
                        Onigiri (rice balls), *are* period. Hmm...need to get some molds for that, make it easier...hopefully I'm going to Philly later in the year...and there's a Chinatown there...hmmmm...
                        Some food info for the Heian period can be found at...http://www.taleofmurasaki.com/foodspage.htm
                        Purrs!



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Elaine Koogler
                        Could be. It kind of fits the description of the pickled rice/fish combo pressed into a mold that I mentioned in my post. Kiri ... One possible type of sushi
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 20, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Could be. It kind of fits the description of the pickled rice/fish combo pressed into a mold that I mentioned in my post.

                          Kiri
                          ----- Original Message -----

                          One possible type of sushi which may have existed in late period,
                          battera-zushi, named after the portuguese word for ship (bateira), was the
                          same pickled fish (mackeral or funa, carp) which was pressed in a three part
                          mold with vinegared rice, removed and eaten. It was the tail, which was
                          still intact and sticking out of one end of the mold, which gave the
                          appearance of the image of a galleon. (circa 1569). This is a traditional
                          speculation and I can find no firm dates to justify this.

                          Bun'ami





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Trella Ocelot
                          Thanks for the tip! However, I expect I ll be pretty much limited to the downtown and historic Philly area, since I m going on a tour bus...beats driving all
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 23, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thanks for the tip! However, I expect I'll be pretty much limited to the downtown and historic Philly area, since I'm going on a tour bus...beats driving all on my own...
                            Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:
                            --- Trella Ocelot <trellaocelot@...> wrote:
                            > Onigiri (rice balls), *are* period. Hmm...need to
                            > get some molds for that, make it easier...hopefully
                            > I'm going to Philly later in the year...and there's
                            > a Chinatown there...hmmmm...
                            > Some food info for the Heian period can be found
                            > at...http://www.taleofmurasaki.com/foodspage.htm
                            > Purrs!
                            >

                            If you are in Philly, there is an awesome
                            Japanese/Korean grocery store just across the NJ
                            border in Mt Laurel, I think. Don't remember the name,
                            but it's by far the best pure Asian grocery I've
                            seen--beats the pants off of Yaohan/Mitsuwa and
                            Uwajimaya in that area, but doesn't have the other
                            stuff (travel agency, bookstore, liquor store, etc.).

                            Shonaigawa


                            __________________________________________________
                            Do You Yahoo!?
                            Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
                            http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

                            UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                            ---------------------------------
                            Do You Yahoo!?
                            Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Trella Ocelot
                            Thanks! It s got lots of useful info of the Heian era, and it s by Lisa Dalby, author of Geisha , Kimono , and...guess what... Tale of Murasaki , which *is*
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jun 23, 2002
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Thanks! It's got lots of useful info of the Heian era, and it's by Lisa Dalby, author of "Geisha", "Kimono", and...guess what..."Tale of Murasaki", which *is* a good book, and I recommend it to any interested in this particular time period. Now, if only she'd give the same treatment to my main babe...errr, gomen, *lady* of the period, Sei Shonagon...
                              Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...> wrote: This is a great site....thanks so very much for sharing it with us. I've bookmarked it and plan to pass it on to others. What you say seems to correspond with what Ii-dono has found in the manuscript he's translating, though it comes from a much later period, 1643 or so. But this may even be helpful to him as he works on the translation.

                              Thanks again!!!




                              ---------------------------------
                              Do You Yahoo!?
                              Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Fyg Adakar - but my friends call me...
                              In traditional sushi you don t often see American rolls as it s mainly nigiri sushi, sashimi, and hand rolls. I m not saying they don t do maki rolls, but
                              Message 14 of 15 , Feb 25, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                In traditional sushi you don't often see American "rolls" as it's mainly
                                nigiri sushi, sashimi, and hand rolls. I'm not saying they don't do maki
                                rolls, but the premise is often to use traditional ingredients in maki with
                                the inclusion of some local ingredients if they fall close enough to
                                traditional fare.

                                The traditional chefs that I've spent time with say that when you go for
                                tradtional sushi there is a specific understanding of traditional fare and
                                to ask for something otherwise (like a California or Boston roll) would mean
                                you either question the quality of the ingredients the chef uses or question
                                tradition - in both cases you would be asked to leave the establishment.

                                I think the 2 biggie modern day sushi where local ingredients were
                                incorporated are perilla-leaf and pickled-gourd sushi but in those cases it
                                was when the chefs took ingredients from existing Japanese cuisine and put
                                into sushi form.



                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Horatius at the Bridge" <horatius314@...>

                                > Would it be appropriate to modify traditional sushi to reflect local
                                > ingredients?
                                >
                                > I've seen the various incarnations of modern sushi available at the local
                                > deli and Japanese resturaunts. I've even seen 'sushi' (please note the
                                quote
                                > marks) variants such as the Arkansas roll, the Boston roll and the
                                > all-pervasive California roll. I've even seen and eaten the rather tasty
                                > North Dakota roll. I understand these are modern versions. But were there
                                > local interpretations of sushi that could be served in period?
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.