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Re: European heraldry on Japanese garb

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  • rujoking99@mac.com
    ... The chest armour is called the Do. In a manner of speaking, it s closer to lorica. However, you should think of it as lorica, where the plates are
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 10 4:33 AM
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      >> and here are some ideas from the Kyoto costume museum:
      >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/37.htm
      > This armor looks promising... is it similaer to a brigandine or lorica
      > segmentata?? I'm guessing lorica.

      The chest armour is called the Do. In a manner of speaking, it's closer to
      lorica. However, you should think of it as lorica, where the plates are
      riveted and lacquered over to make one solid plate, but with the look of
      multiple plates. What looks like a fastening up the front is actually a
      medial ridge, borrowing the "pigeonbreasted" look from European renaissance
      cuirasses worn by the Portuguese. It probably opens on the side or the
      back; I can't think of any Japanese armours that open up the front. The
      thigh and shoulder plates are articulated, and are held together with
      lacings. The shin guards, called Suneate, are basically splints riveted to
      a backing, and tied on; I've seen several ways of working SCA-legal knee
      protection into these. The helmet, called a Kabuto, is fairly standard,
      made up of what looks to be around 30 triangular plates riveted and welded
      together. Then the who shebang is lacquered over, and sculpted to give the
      desired look. The face armour, called a Menpo, would be interesting to
      work into SCA armour, but if you're out to win bouts rather than look
      period, most people I've heard say you should go with a regular bar-grille.
      Effingham, did I miss anything here? Speaking of Effingham, he's got a
      wonderful site,
      http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/
      You should hit there to look at his Online Japanese Miscellany, as well as
      an incredible work about building Japanese armour. It should be illegal,
      since it's a felony to kick this much butt. <G>

      >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
      >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
      > I'm not big on the hats on these last two... my wife would never let me
      > wear
      > them regardless....

      As for the doofy hat, it's called an Eboshi, and it was the most common
      headwear for samurai in court. It does look a little odd, but for court
      wear, you can't really go wrong with it. There are other types that tend
      to look less doofy, including one that looks like you're wearing a black
      sock, wind-blown to the side of your head. Of course, though the eboshi
      was the most popular headwear, it still can't compete with a cool,
      comfortable bare head, especially at Pennsic.

      I hope I've gotten everything pretty much right.

      Kinoshita Yoshimori
    • jcruz@sd.synetics.com
      On 06/09/2002 08:03:43 AM Douglas the Indecisive wrote: ... a ... looking ... if ... Isn t this somewhat missing the thrust of the Laurel Kingdoms
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 10 9:16 AM
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        On 06/09/2002 08:03:43 AM Douglas the Indecisive wrote:


        <Snipped>

        >I definately would not want to use a european eraldic shield. To me, that
        >would just completely take away for the apearance of the garment. We have
        a
        >squire that basically dropped out of the SCA "because everyone began
        looking
        >like mundanes in bathrobes", I would FEEL like a "mundane in a bathrobe"
        if
        >I put heraldic shields on Japanese garb!

        Isn't this somewhat missing the thrust of the "Laurel Kingdoms" argument?
        I mean, the idea that we don't have to fully justify Japanese contact with
        Europe is because we're not *in* Europe, but rather the Laurel Kingdoms.
        Right? Well, I've been in the Laurel Kingdoms for about 16 years now . . .
        I'm guessing I could have picked up a European mannerism or two from all
        these Gaijin I'm always exposed to. I've been awarded arms (a few years
        back and I'm chagrinned to report I still haven't registered any, in part
        because of this exact kind of discussion), by a European King, and was told
        to get together with that King's herlad's to determine suitable arms. This
        points in the direction of using European conventions. If I can find a way
        to use Japanese style charges, that's to my plus, but unless the dominant
        paradigm has changed, it's still got to conform to European standards in
        the end. That's just the way it is in the Laurel Kingdoms. Neh?

        >I'm concerned that the european "imaginary creature" combinations were not
        >something the Japanese would have concidered in period.

        Now here, I tend to agree. Most of the charges that Europeans use would
        never appeal to the sensibilities and aesthetics of the Japanese. Most of
        the charges wouldn't have the elegance, flow or simplicity that inform much
        of Japanese aesthetics. Rather, they might be considered garrish or
        downright ugly. So it's still a good idea to find themes which would be
        reflected well in Japanese convention. Nature based themes, even with
        objects not previously seen in Japan, would probably be well received, as
        would basic divisions of space.

        Just my two cents.

        --Ishii

        <Snipped end for brevity.>
      • Douglas Shannon
        ... I m not looking to register it, just present it in a way that it would not look completely european... These are my Knight/Household s arms... I just want
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 10 2:33 PM
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          > From: Ii Saburou <logan@...>
          >Subject: Re: Re: European heraldry on Japanese garb
          >On Sun, 9 Jun 2002, Douglas Shannon wrote:
          > > The heraldry is a gold "winged bear" on a black field.
          >Hmmm... not sure that you would necessarily get away with that in Japanese
          >heraldry, but you could look and see.
          > > I'm concerned that the european "imaginary creature" combinations were
          >not
          > > something the Japanese would have concidered in period.
          >Well, they had plenty of imaginary creatures, but I don't know if this
          >fits into one. I would be leery of just making it up.

          I'm not looking to register it, just present it in a way that it would not
          look completely european...

          These are my Knight/Household's arms... I just want to still fly the colors
          while I'm in Japanese garb. But I'm begining to lean toward just working the
          color scheme and dropping the actual arms...

          > > Also, if this were to be "court garb" I would consider putting
          > > that much extra effort into the garment, but I'm looking mre for
          >something
          > > to fight in (garb,not armor;that's the next project).
          >Ahhh... that changes things. Fighting garb and court garb are different.
          >Depending on how far you want to go, you'd want a kosode, hitatare, and
          >hakama (specifically yoroi, or armour, hitatare and hakama). See the
          >'files' section and check out Hiraizumi-dono's page: www.sengokudaimyo.com

          I've managed to hit that site while at work, so I've printed and tagged alot
          of it.

          >On top of that you wear the armor, and then over it all you may want to
          >wear a jinbaori (a camp coat).
          >In that case, you only have to worry about the jinbaori having designs,
          >although if you make the hitatare and hakama with some kind of designs it
          >will look rather spiff.
          > > >If you make a jinbaori or doubuku then you could put a large mon on
          >back.

          Ok.. I think I have a clue as to what you are saying...

          > > >http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/pictures/iifuku.JPG
          > > This is pretty interesting.. If that were done in black with yellow
          >stripes, would a yellow kimonon be worn under it and get tucked into the
          >hakama??
          > > And could I still do the 5 little "mon" placement of my Knights heraldry
          >on it?
          >Well, I think you would only do 3--no sleeves after all. This is not
          >really what you want to wear on the battlefield, mind you.

          Ok... I think I'm following...

          One of the things I'm looking to do is come up with minimum armor that will
          fit under garb to do tourneys in... More of a samurai in a duel image rather
          than a full set of armor.

          I just have to come up with a very low profile helm. I had found a place in
          Jersey that colors stainless steel in a process similar to anodizing.. but I
          can't find the link now... I was thinking of coloring the bottom
          three-quarters of a helm black to give the image of a shaved pate and
          top-knot...

          > > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/37.htm
          > > This armor looks promising... is it similaer to a brigandine or lorica
          > > segmentata?? I'm guessing lorica.
          >
          >Actually, you are looking at a nanban-dou. See sengokudaimyo.com for a
          >great manual on armor construction. 'Nanban' means western-style, and it
          >is a solid breastplate, with the kusazuri hanging below (those little,
          >free hanging plates to protect the upper legs).
          >
          >The more traditional Japanese armours were similar to scale armours of
          >other mounted warriors, with elaborate lacing and other differences.
          >Later armours imitated this style with lames of solid metal. However,
          >just because it isn't always a solid piece, doesn't mean that it was
          >flexible.

          I'm currently fighting in a coat-of-plates that is hardly flexible at all.

          > > This looks like it's just hakama and hitatare (is that made for a kimono
          > > pattern?) in the same pattern (the sleaves apear to be lined), is there
          > > another (white) kimono under the outer garment? And what is the brown
          >tie at
          > > about mid-chest?
          >I would use the hakama-hitatare (the combination is often called
          >'kamishimo') pattern for this. The brown tie at the top nominally keeps
          >it closed although it seems, more realistically, that it is basically for
          >decoration by this time. Underneath would be worn a kosode--more like a
          >modern day kimono with sewn up sleeves (as opposed to the open sleeves you
          >see).

          This is something that has been confusing me for some time...

          Are the sleeve ends sown like a peapod sleeve?? Hpw much of the actual
          opening is closed? I'm ready some historical fiction right now and the
          author has everyone stuffing money and food in their sleeves and it just
          stays in there... I thought the sleave ends were open like an angel-wing
          dress/houpelande.....

          > > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
          > > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
          > > I'm not big on the hats on these last two... my wife would never let me
          >wear
          > > them regardless....
          >? Why not.

          She still has some modern tastes left in her...

          > > I was watching Ran last night, and the blue garment that Saburo was
          >wearing
          > > at the begining was very interesting... like a ski blue with a hexagon
          > > pattern across the front and black in a very light blue/silver...
          > > Was something like this period for the SCA time frame?
          > > Would it be acceptable to produce the hex pattern in satin ribbon?
          >Hmmm... I'm trying to remember exactly what that was--I don't recall that
          >specific garment (I remember the color, but not the pattern). My first
          >thought, though, would be to look at whether or not it had been dyed. Of
          >course, you are dealing with a movie so it may just have been cinematic as
          >well. Without a picture (couldn't find one easily on the 'net) I couldn't
          >really say.

          I tried to find a decent pic and came up with nothing as well.... it was a
          beautiful row of hexes across the front and back, straight across from
          sleave opening to sleave opening... I think it was only maybe 1.5 or 2 hexes
          wide like this:
          _ _ _ _
          / \_/ \_/ \_/ \_
          \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/
          / \_/ \_/ \_/ \_

          Douglas the Indecisive

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        • Douglas Shannon
          ... ... Been there, printed that... It s crazy how much info he has on that site... ... As previously stated... I doubt my wife would go for the
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 10 2:37 PM
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            > Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 07:33:55 -0400
            > From: rujoking99@...
            >Subject: Re: European heraldry on Japanese garb
            >
            > >> and here are some ideas from the Kyoto costume museum:
            > >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/37.htm
            > > This armor looks promising... is it similaer to a brigandine or lorica
            > > segmentata?? I'm guessing lorica.
            >
            >The chest armour is called the Do. In a manner of speaking, it's closer to
            >lorica. However, you should think of it as lorica, where the plates are
            >riveted and lacquered over to make one solid plate, but with the look of
            >multiple plates.

            <snippage>

            >desired look. The face armour, called a Menpo, would be interesting to
            >work into SCA armour, but if you're out to win bouts rather than look
            >period, most people I've heard say you should go with a regular bar-grille.
            >Effingham, did I miss anything here? Speaking of Effingham, he's got a
            >wonderful site,
            >http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/
            >You should hit there to look at his Online Japanese Miscellany, as well as
            >an incredible work about building Japanese armour. It should be illegal,
            >since it's a felony to kick this much butt. <G>

            Been there, printed that...

            It's crazy how much info he has on that site...

            > >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
            > >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
            > > I'm not big on the hats on these last two... my wife would never let me
            > > wear
            > > them regardless....
            >
            >As for the doofy hat, it's called an Eboshi, and it was the most common
            >headwear for samurai in court. It does look a little odd, but for court
            >wear, you can't really go wrong with it. There are other types that tend
            >to look less doofy, including one that looks like you're wearing a black
            >sock, wind-blown to the side of your head. Of course, though the eboshi
            >was the most popular headwear, it still can't compete with a cool,
            >comfortable bare head, especially at Pennsic.

            As previously stated... I doubt my wife would go for the hats...

            >I hope I've gotten everything pretty much right.

            Me too!

            Doulgas the Indeisive


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          • Ii Saburou
            ... That would probably be the easiest way to go. ... Jersey you say? Where are you at? New Jersey, PA, NY? ... Oddly enough, I ve found that the more rigid
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 10 4:40 PM
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              On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Douglas Shannon wrote:

              > These are my Knight/Household's arms... I just want to still fly the colors
              > while I'm in Japanese garb. But I'm begining to lean toward just working the
              > color scheme and dropping the actual arms...

              That would probably be the easiest way to go.

              > Ok... I think I'm following...
              >
              > One of the things I'm looking to do is come up with minimum armor that will
              > fit under garb to do tourneys in... More of a samurai in a duel image rather
              > than a full set of armor.
              >
              > I just have to come up with a very low profile helm. I had found a place in
              > Jersey that colors stainless steel in a process similar to anodizing.. but I
              > can't find the link now... I was thinking of coloring the bottom
              > three-quarters of a helm black to give the image of a shaved pate and
              > top-knot...

              Jersey you say? Where are you at? New Jersey, PA, NY?

              > >The more traditional Japanese armours were similar to scale armours of
              > >other mounted warriors, with elaborate lacing and other differences.
              > >Later armours imitated this style with lames of solid metal. However,
              > >just because it isn't always a solid piece, doesn't mean that it was
              > >flexible.
              >
              > I'm currently fighting in a coat-of-plates that is hardly flexible at all.

              Oddly enough, I've found that the more rigid armor actually seems to be
              easier to move it. Perhaps it is because you aren't moving all the weight
              around.. .but I guess that's a topic for another list. (Although.. I'd
              really love to see a good tatami-do [tatami != rice mat. It is plates
              held together by maille, as I've seen it. I believe it refers to the
              fact it can be rolled up])


              > This is something that has been confusing me for some time...
              >
              > Are the sleeve ends sown like a peapod sleeve?? Hpw much of the actual
              > opening is closed? I'm ready some historical fiction right now and the
              > author has everyone stuffing money and food in their sleeves and it just
              > stays in there... I thought the sleave ends were open like an angel-wing
              > dress/houpelande.....

              Good question. In early period, only the kosode were sewn in this manner,
              and they were the undermost garments. To be seen in kosode (lit. small
              sleeve, referring to the small opening) was to be caught in one's
              underpants, so to speak.

              Later, the fashion began to change and people started dressing down. You
              see similar trends in clothing around the world. Soon, the sleeves were
              peaking out from beneath your clothes, so you want them to look pretty,
              and if it is going to be pretty, you want to show more of it off (just
              guessing, not sure WHY it happened, precisely). Anyway, you see more
              garments with kosode like sleeves -- I believe the uchikakke has them, and
              many doubuku have them (this is a coat, worn outside the hakama and over a
              kosode, with a front cut similar to the hitatare in that it is open,
              rather than closed, in most cases). This used to be peasant and merchant
              wear, but you see it as the lounge and relaxation wear of the later
              periods.

              Jinbaori, however, do not have kosode (small sleeves) because they are
              made to go over armour, and small arm holes wouldn't make much sense.

              > I tried to find a decent pic and came up with nothing as well.... it was a
              > beautiful row of hexes across the front and back, straight across from
              > sleave opening to sleave opening... I think it was only maybe 1.5 or 2 hexes
              > wide like this:
              > _ _ _ _
              > / \_/ \_/ \_/ \_
              > \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/
              > / \_/ \_/ \_/ \_

              My guess is it was painted on. Find out where the neck of the garment
              will be and lay out your rectangular pieces, then apply paint in this
              pattern. I've been told to go with acrylics, but haven't yet had a chance
              to really test it out. I'm making a woodblock of my main character 'i',
              or well, and was going to block that over some cloth and turn it into
              something.

              -Ii
            • michael A
              well im working on 2 sets of tatami do right now. id be happy to show you,take pictures and/or tell you how it perfroms once im finished. --kiyohara ...
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 10 8:33 PM
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                well im working on 2 sets of tatami do right now. id
                be happy to show you,take pictures and/or tell you how
                it perfroms once im finished.
                --kiyohara
                --- Ii Saburou <logan@...> wrote:
                > Oddly enough, I've found that the more rigid armor
                > actually seems to be
                > easier to move it. Perhaps it is because you aren't
                > moving all the weight
                > around.. .but I guess that's a topic for another
                > list. (Although.. I'd
                > really love to see a good tatami-do [tatami != rice
                > mat. It is plates
                > held together by maille, as I've seen it. I believe
                > it refers to the
                > fact it can be rolled up])


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              • Ii Saburou
                ... I would love to know. I m especially curious as to how well it will hold up. I would guess that, protection wise, it is no worse off than some brig. that
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 11 3:16 AM
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                  On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, michael A wrote:

                  > well im working on 2 sets of tatami do right now. id
                  > be happy to show you,take pictures and/or tell you how
                  > it perfroms once im finished.
                  > --kiyohara

                  I would love to know. I'm especially curious as to how well it will hold
                  up. I would guess that, protection wise, it is no worse off than some
                  brig. that I've seen out there.

                  I need to build a new set of armor, but I'm thinking of doing a nanban do
                  next.

                  -Ii
                • michael A
                  i tested a 3x3 section of plates at a practice. it took the abuse no problem. i was using 16ga plates and doubled up rings of 16ga 1/4 id. i will probably go
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 11 9:04 AM
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                    i tested a 3x3 section of plates at a practice. it
                    took the abuse no problem. i was using 16ga plates and
                    doubled up rings of 16ga 1/4"id. i will probably go
                    down to 18ga plates on the next piece with the same
                    link construction.
                    --kiyohara
                    --- Ii Saburou <logan@...> wrote:
                    > On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, michael A wrote:
                    >
                    > > well im working on 2 sets of tatami do right now.
                    > id
                    > > be happy to show you,take pictures and/or tell you
                    > how
                    > > it perfroms once im finished.
                    > > --kiyohara
                    >
                    > I would love to know. I'm especially curious as to
                    > how well it will hold
                    > up. I would guess that, protection wise, it is no
                    > worse off than some
                    > brig. that I've seen out there.
                    >
                    > I need to build a new set of armor, but I'm thinking
                    > of doing a nanban do
                    > next.
                    >
                    > -Ii
                    >
                    >
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