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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: European heraldry on Japanese garb

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  • Ii Saburou
    ... Hmmm... not sure that you would necessarily get away with that in Japanese heraldry, but you could look and see. ... Well, they had plenty of imaginary
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 9, 2002
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      On Sun, 9 Jun 2002, Douglas Shannon wrote:

      > The heraldry is a gold "winged bear" on a black field.

      Hmmm... not sure that you would necessarily get away with that in Japanese
      heraldry, but you could look and see.

      > I'm concerned that the european "imaginary creature" combinations were not
      > something the Japanese would have concidered in period.

      Well, they had plenty of imaginary creatures, but I don't know if this
      fits into one. I would be leery of just making it up.

      > >You can even do combinations, although I would make sure there was a
      > >difference between the 'mon' and the patterns you create.
      >
      > See above. Also, if this were to be "court garb" I would consider putting
      > that much extra effort into the garment, but I'm looking mre for something
      > to fight in (garb,not armor;that's the next project).

      Ahhh... that changes things. Fighting garb and court garb are different.

      Depending on how far you want to go, you'd want a kosode, hitatare, and
      hakama (specifically yoroi, or armour, hitatare and hakama). See the
      'files' section and check out Hiraizumi-dono's page: www.sengokudaimyo.com

      On top of that you wear the armor, and then over it all you may want to
      wear a jinbaori (a camp coat).

      In that case, you only have to worry about the jinbaori having designs,
      although if you make the hitatare and hakama with some kind of designs it
      will look rather spiff.

      > >If you make a jinbaori or doubuku then you could put a large mon on back.
      >
      > ?? or ??, i'm still pretty Japanese illiterate and a heavy weapons
      > fighter... Pictures or patterns work best for me...

      Okay, I'll try to point them out in the illustrations I gave (if you go to
      the english versions of the pages below they should point out the names of
      the various garments, too)

      > >Here is a copy of a garment made for the character Ii Naosuke on "Aoi:
      > >Three Generations of Tokugawa", which is admittedly just after period (it
      > >starts with the battle at Sekigahara). While I wouldn't use it as a source
      > >for accuracy, I have seen similar garments (this was taken at the museum at
      > >Hikone castle, given to the Ii family post-period)
      > >
      > >http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/pictures/iifuku.JPG
      >
      > This is pretty interesting.. If that were done in black with yellow stripes,
      > would a yellow kimonon be worn under it and get tucked into the hakama??
      >
      > And could I still do the 5 little "mon" placement of my Knights heraldry on
      > it?

      Well, I think you would only do 3--no sleeves after all. This is not
      really what you want to wear on the battlefield, mind you.

      > >and here are some ideas from the Kyoto costume museum:
      > >
      > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/37.htm
      >
      > This armor looks promising... is it similaer to a brigandine or lorica
      > segmentata?? I'm guessing lorica.

      Actually, you are looking at a nanban-dou. See sengokudaimyo.com for a
      great manual on armor construction. 'Nanban' means western-style, and it
      is a solid breastplate, with the kusazuri hanging below (those little,
      free hanging plates to protect the upper legs).

      The more traditional Japanese armours were similar to scale armours of
      other mounted warriors, with elaborate lacing and other differences.
      Later armours imitated this style with lames of solid metal. However,
      just because it isn't always a solid piece, doesn't mean that it was
      flexible. Once again, see the website above for info, but essentially it
      was tied firmly together so that the plates should really be able to move
      on the breastplate.

      > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/17.htm
      >
      > This looks like it's just hakama and hitatare (is that made for a kimono
      > pattern?) in the same pattern (the sleaves apear to be lined), is there
      > another (white) kimono under the outer garment? And what is the brown tie at
      > about mid-chest?

      I would use the hakama-hitatare (the combination is often called
      'kamishimo') pattern for this. The brown tie at the top nominally keeps
      it closed although it seems, more realistically, that it is basically for
      decoration by this time. Underneath would be worn a kosode--more like a
      modern day kimono with sewn up sleeves (as opposed to the open sleeves you
      see).

      One thing to note is the koshi-ita. I'm not sure that the koshi-ita was
      actually being worn yet. At least, I've seen nothing in period that has
      led me to this conclusion.

      > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
      > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
      >
      > I'm not big on the hats on these last two... my wife would never let me wear
      > them regardless....

      ? Why not.

      > I've looked at the patterns on the Yahoo site, I just have no clue how to
      > combine them into proper period attire or period color combinations...

      That comes with finding sources, like this, too look at and eventually get
      a good 'feel'. Also jidai-geki (period) movies such as 'Ran', 'Throne of
      Blood', the various Taiga dramas--these are good to at least get a feel
      for what it would be like (I don't support their use as actual
      documentation, though).

      > >(If you change it to "www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/..." then it should
      > >give you the english page for each pict)
      > >
      > >I think that you can use some of these techniques to do something that
      > >looks right and uses the colors you want.
      >
      > I was watching Ran last night, and the blue garment that Saburo was wearing
      > at the begining was very interesting... like a ski blue with a hexagon
      > pattern across the front and black in a very light blue/silver...
      >
      > Was something like this period for the SCA time frame?
      > Would it be acceptable to produce the hex pattern in satin ribbon?

      Hmmm... I'm trying to remember exactly what that was--I don't recall that
      specific garment (I remember the color, but not the pattern). My first
      thought, though, would be to look at whether or not it had been dyed. Of
      course, you are dealing with a movie so it may just have been cinematic as
      well. Without a picture (couldn't find one easily on the 'net) I couldn't
      really say.

      -Ii
    • rujoking99@mac.com
      ... The chest armour is called the Do. In a manner of speaking, it s closer to lorica. However, you should think of it as lorica, where the plates are
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 10, 2002
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        >> and here are some ideas from the Kyoto costume museum:
        >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/37.htm
        > This armor looks promising... is it similaer to a brigandine or lorica
        > segmentata?? I'm guessing lorica.

        The chest armour is called the Do. In a manner of speaking, it's closer to
        lorica. However, you should think of it as lorica, where the plates are
        riveted and lacquered over to make one solid plate, but with the look of
        multiple plates. What looks like a fastening up the front is actually a
        medial ridge, borrowing the "pigeonbreasted" look from European renaissance
        cuirasses worn by the Portuguese. It probably opens on the side or the
        back; I can't think of any Japanese armours that open up the front. The
        thigh and shoulder plates are articulated, and are held together with
        lacings. The shin guards, called Suneate, are basically splints riveted to
        a backing, and tied on; I've seen several ways of working SCA-legal knee
        protection into these. The helmet, called a Kabuto, is fairly standard,
        made up of what looks to be around 30 triangular plates riveted and welded
        together. Then the who shebang is lacquered over, and sculpted to give the
        desired look. The face armour, called a Menpo, would be interesting to
        work into SCA armour, but if you're out to win bouts rather than look
        period, most people I've heard say you should go with a regular bar-grille.
        Effingham, did I miss anything here? Speaking of Effingham, he's got a
        wonderful site,
        http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/
        You should hit there to look at his Online Japanese Miscellany, as well as
        an incredible work about building Japanese armour. It should be illegal,
        since it's a felony to kick this much butt. <G>

        >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
        >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
        > I'm not big on the hats on these last two... my wife would never let me
        > wear
        > them regardless....

        As for the doofy hat, it's called an Eboshi, and it was the most common
        headwear for samurai in court. It does look a little odd, but for court
        wear, you can't really go wrong with it. There are other types that tend
        to look less doofy, including one that looks like you're wearing a black
        sock, wind-blown to the side of your head. Of course, though the eboshi
        was the most popular headwear, it still can't compete with a cool,
        comfortable bare head, especially at Pennsic.

        I hope I've gotten everything pretty much right.

        Kinoshita Yoshimori
      • jcruz@sd.synetics.com
        On 06/09/2002 08:03:43 AM Douglas the Indecisive wrote: ... a ... looking ... if ... Isn t this somewhat missing the thrust of the Laurel Kingdoms
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 10, 2002
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          On 06/09/2002 08:03:43 AM Douglas the Indecisive wrote:


          <Snipped>

          >I definately would not want to use a european eraldic shield. To me, that
          >would just completely take away for the apearance of the garment. We have
          a
          >squire that basically dropped out of the SCA "because everyone began
          looking
          >like mundanes in bathrobes", I would FEEL like a "mundane in a bathrobe"
          if
          >I put heraldic shields on Japanese garb!

          Isn't this somewhat missing the thrust of the "Laurel Kingdoms" argument?
          I mean, the idea that we don't have to fully justify Japanese contact with
          Europe is because we're not *in* Europe, but rather the Laurel Kingdoms.
          Right? Well, I've been in the Laurel Kingdoms for about 16 years now . . .
          I'm guessing I could have picked up a European mannerism or two from all
          these Gaijin I'm always exposed to. I've been awarded arms (a few years
          back and I'm chagrinned to report I still haven't registered any, in part
          because of this exact kind of discussion), by a European King, and was told
          to get together with that King's herlad's to determine suitable arms. This
          points in the direction of using European conventions. If I can find a way
          to use Japanese style charges, that's to my plus, but unless the dominant
          paradigm has changed, it's still got to conform to European standards in
          the end. That's just the way it is in the Laurel Kingdoms. Neh?

          >I'm concerned that the european "imaginary creature" combinations were not
          >something the Japanese would have concidered in period.

          Now here, I tend to agree. Most of the charges that Europeans use would
          never appeal to the sensibilities and aesthetics of the Japanese. Most of
          the charges wouldn't have the elegance, flow or simplicity that inform much
          of Japanese aesthetics. Rather, they might be considered garrish or
          downright ugly. So it's still a good idea to find themes which would be
          reflected well in Japanese convention. Nature based themes, even with
          objects not previously seen in Japan, would probably be well received, as
          would basic divisions of space.

          Just my two cents.

          --Ishii

          <Snipped end for brevity.>
        • Douglas Shannon
          ... I m not looking to register it, just present it in a way that it would not look completely european... These are my Knight/Household s arms... I just want
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 10, 2002
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            > From: Ii Saburou <logan@...>
            >Subject: Re: Re: European heraldry on Japanese garb
            >On Sun, 9 Jun 2002, Douglas Shannon wrote:
            > > The heraldry is a gold "winged bear" on a black field.
            >Hmmm... not sure that you would necessarily get away with that in Japanese
            >heraldry, but you could look and see.
            > > I'm concerned that the european "imaginary creature" combinations were
            >not
            > > something the Japanese would have concidered in period.
            >Well, they had plenty of imaginary creatures, but I don't know if this
            >fits into one. I would be leery of just making it up.

            I'm not looking to register it, just present it in a way that it would not
            look completely european...

            These are my Knight/Household's arms... I just want to still fly the colors
            while I'm in Japanese garb. But I'm begining to lean toward just working the
            color scheme and dropping the actual arms...

            > > Also, if this were to be "court garb" I would consider putting
            > > that much extra effort into the garment, but I'm looking mre for
            >something
            > > to fight in (garb,not armor;that's the next project).
            >Ahhh... that changes things. Fighting garb and court garb are different.
            >Depending on how far you want to go, you'd want a kosode, hitatare, and
            >hakama (specifically yoroi, or armour, hitatare and hakama). See the
            >'files' section and check out Hiraizumi-dono's page: www.sengokudaimyo.com

            I've managed to hit that site while at work, so I've printed and tagged alot
            of it.

            >On top of that you wear the armor, and then over it all you may want to
            >wear a jinbaori (a camp coat).
            >In that case, you only have to worry about the jinbaori having designs,
            >although if you make the hitatare and hakama with some kind of designs it
            >will look rather spiff.
            > > >If you make a jinbaori or doubuku then you could put a large mon on
            >back.

            Ok.. I think I have a clue as to what you are saying...

            > > >http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/pictures/iifuku.JPG
            > > This is pretty interesting.. If that were done in black with yellow
            >stripes, would a yellow kimonon be worn under it and get tucked into the
            >hakama??
            > > And could I still do the 5 little "mon" placement of my Knights heraldry
            >on it?
            >Well, I think you would only do 3--no sleeves after all. This is not
            >really what you want to wear on the battlefield, mind you.

            Ok... I think I'm following...

            One of the things I'm looking to do is come up with minimum armor that will
            fit under garb to do tourneys in... More of a samurai in a duel image rather
            than a full set of armor.

            I just have to come up with a very low profile helm. I had found a place in
            Jersey that colors stainless steel in a process similar to anodizing.. but I
            can't find the link now... I was thinking of coloring the bottom
            three-quarters of a helm black to give the image of a shaved pate and
            top-knot...

            > > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/37.htm
            > > This armor looks promising... is it similaer to a brigandine or lorica
            > > segmentata?? I'm guessing lorica.
            >
            >Actually, you are looking at a nanban-dou. See sengokudaimyo.com for a
            >great manual on armor construction. 'Nanban' means western-style, and it
            >is a solid breastplate, with the kusazuri hanging below (those little,
            >free hanging plates to protect the upper legs).
            >
            >The more traditional Japanese armours were similar to scale armours of
            >other mounted warriors, with elaborate lacing and other differences.
            >Later armours imitated this style with lames of solid metal. However,
            >just because it isn't always a solid piece, doesn't mean that it was
            >flexible.

            I'm currently fighting in a coat-of-plates that is hardly flexible at all.

            > > This looks like it's just hakama and hitatare (is that made for a kimono
            > > pattern?) in the same pattern (the sleaves apear to be lined), is there
            > > another (white) kimono under the outer garment? And what is the brown
            >tie at
            > > about mid-chest?
            >I would use the hakama-hitatare (the combination is often called
            >'kamishimo') pattern for this. The brown tie at the top nominally keeps
            >it closed although it seems, more realistically, that it is basically for
            >decoration by this time. Underneath would be worn a kosode--more like a
            >modern day kimono with sewn up sleeves (as opposed to the open sleeves you
            >see).

            This is something that has been confusing me for some time...

            Are the sleeve ends sown like a peapod sleeve?? Hpw much of the actual
            opening is closed? I'm ready some historical fiction right now and the
            author has everyone stuffing money and food in their sleeves and it just
            stays in there... I thought the sleave ends were open like an angel-wing
            dress/houpelande.....

            > > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
            > > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
            > > I'm not big on the hats on these last two... my wife would never let me
            >wear
            > > them regardless....
            >? Why not.

            She still has some modern tastes left in her...

            > > I was watching Ran last night, and the blue garment that Saburo was
            >wearing
            > > at the begining was very interesting... like a ski blue with a hexagon
            > > pattern across the front and black in a very light blue/silver...
            > > Was something like this period for the SCA time frame?
            > > Would it be acceptable to produce the hex pattern in satin ribbon?
            >Hmmm... I'm trying to remember exactly what that was--I don't recall that
            >specific garment (I remember the color, but not the pattern). My first
            >thought, though, would be to look at whether or not it had been dyed. Of
            >course, you are dealing with a movie so it may just have been cinematic as
            >well. Without a picture (couldn't find one easily on the 'net) I couldn't
            >really say.

            I tried to find a decent pic and came up with nothing as well.... it was a
            beautiful row of hexes across the front and back, straight across from
            sleave opening to sleave opening... I think it was only maybe 1.5 or 2 hexes
            wide like this:
            _ _ _ _
            / \_/ \_/ \_/ \_
            \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/
            / \_/ \_/ \_/ \_

            Douglas the Indecisive

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          • Douglas Shannon
            ... ... Been there, printed that... It s crazy how much info he has on that site... ... As previously stated... I doubt my wife would go for the
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 10, 2002
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              > Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 07:33:55 -0400
              > From: rujoking99@...
              >Subject: Re: European heraldry on Japanese garb
              >
              > >> and here are some ideas from the Kyoto costume museum:
              > >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/37.htm
              > > This armor looks promising... is it similaer to a brigandine or lorica
              > > segmentata?? I'm guessing lorica.
              >
              >The chest armour is called the Do. In a manner of speaking, it's closer to
              >lorica. However, you should think of it as lorica, where the plates are
              >riveted and lacquered over to make one solid plate, but with the look of
              >multiple plates.

              <snippage>

              >desired look. The face armour, called a Menpo, would be interesting to
              >work into SCA armour, but if you're out to win bouts rather than look
              >period, most people I've heard say you should go with a regular bar-grille.
              >Effingham, did I miss anything here? Speaking of Effingham, he's got a
              >wonderful site,
              >http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/
              >You should hit there to look at his Online Japanese Miscellany, as well as
              >an incredible work about building Japanese armour. It should be illegal,
              >since it's a felony to kick this much butt. <G>

              Been there, printed that...

              It's crazy how much info he has on that site...

              > >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
              > >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
              > > I'm not big on the hats on these last two... my wife would never let me
              > > wear
              > > them regardless....
              >
              >As for the doofy hat, it's called an Eboshi, and it was the most common
              >headwear for samurai in court. It does look a little odd, but for court
              >wear, you can't really go wrong with it. There are other types that tend
              >to look less doofy, including one that looks like you're wearing a black
              >sock, wind-blown to the side of your head. Of course, though the eboshi
              >was the most popular headwear, it still can't compete with a cool,
              >comfortable bare head, especially at Pennsic.

              As previously stated... I doubt my wife would go for the hats...

              >I hope I've gotten everything pretty much right.

              Me too!

              Doulgas the Indeisive


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            • Ii Saburou
              ... That would probably be the easiest way to go. ... Jersey you say? Where are you at? New Jersey, PA, NY? ... Oddly enough, I ve found that the more rigid
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 10, 2002
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                On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Douglas Shannon wrote:

                > These are my Knight/Household's arms... I just want to still fly the colors
                > while I'm in Japanese garb. But I'm begining to lean toward just working the
                > color scheme and dropping the actual arms...

                That would probably be the easiest way to go.

                > Ok... I think I'm following...
                >
                > One of the things I'm looking to do is come up with minimum armor that will
                > fit under garb to do tourneys in... More of a samurai in a duel image rather
                > than a full set of armor.
                >
                > I just have to come up with a very low profile helm. I had found a place in
                > Jersey that colors stainless steel in a process similar to anodizing.. but I
                > can't find the link now... I was thinking of coloring the bottom
                > three-quarters of a helm black to give the image of a shaved pate and
                > top-knot...

                Jersey you say? Where are you at? New Jersey, PA, NY?

                > >The more traditional Japanese armours were similar to scale armours of
                > >other mounted warriors, with elaborate lacing and other differences.
                > >Later armours imitated this style with lames of solid metal. However,
                > >just because it isn't always a solid piece, doesn't mean that it was
                > >flexible.
                >
                > I'm currently fighting in a coat-of-plates that is hardly flexible at all.

                Oddly enough, I've found that the more rigid armor actually seems to be
                easier to move it. Perhaps it is because you aren't moving all the weight
                around.. .but I guess that's a topic for another list. (Although.. I'd
                really love to see a good tatami-do [tatami != rice mat. It is plates
                held together by maille, as I've seen it. I believe it refers to the
                fact it can be rolled up])


                > This is something that has been confusing me for some time...
                >
                > Are the sleeve ends sown like a peapod sleeve?? Hpw much of the actual
                > opening is closed? I'm ready some historical fiction right now and the
                > author has everyone stuffing money and food in their sleeves and it just
                > stays in there... I thought the sleave ends were open like an angel-wing
                > dress/houpelande.....

                Good question. In early period, only the kosode were sewn in this manner,
                and they were the undermost garments. To be seen in kosode (lit. small
                sleeve, referring to the small opening) was to be caught in one's
                underpants, so to speak.

                Later, the fashion began to change and people started dressing down. You
                see similar trends in clothing around the world. Soon, the sleeves were
                peaking out from beneath your clothes, so you want them to look pretty,
                and if it is going to be pretty, you want to show more of it off (just
                guessing, not sure WHY it happened, precisely). Anyway, you see more
                garments with kosode like sleeves -- I believe the uchikakke has them, and
                many doubuku have them (this is a coat, worn outside the hakama and over a
                kosode, with a front cut similar to the hitatare in that it is open,
                rather than closed, in most cases). This used to be peasant and merchant
                wear, but you see it as the lounge and relaxation wear of the later
                periods.

                Jinbaori, however, do not have kosode (small sleeves) because they are
                made to go over armour, and small arm holes wouldn't make much sense.

                > I tried to find a decent pic and came up with nothing as well.... it was a
                > beautiful row of hexes across the front and back, straight across from
                > sleave opening to sleave opening... I think it was only maybe 1.5 or 2 hexes
                > wide like this:
                > _ _ _ _
                > / \_/ \_/ \_/ \_
                > \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/
                > / \_/ \_/ \_/ \_

                My guess is it was painted on. Find out where the neck of the garment
                will be and lay out your rectangular pieces, then apply paint in this
                pattern. I've been told to go with acrylics, but haven't yet had a chance
                to really test it out. I'm making a woodblock of my main character 'i',
                or well, and was going to block that over some cloth and turn it into
                something.

                -Ii
              • michael A
                well im working on 2 sets of tatami do right now. id be happy to show you,take pictures and/or tell you how it perfroms once im finished. --kiyohara ...
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 10, 2002
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                  well im working on 2 sets of tatami do right now. id
                  be happy to show you,take pictures and/or tell you how
                  it perfroms once im finished.
                  --kiyohara
                  --- Ii Saburou <logan@...> wrote:
                  > Oddly enough, I've found that the more rigid armor
                  > actually seems to be
                  > easier to move it. Perhaps it is because you aren't
                  > moving all the weight
                  > around.. .but I guess that's a topic for another
                  > list. (Although.. I'd
                  > really love to see a good tatami-do [tatami != rice
                  > mat. It is plates
                  > held together by maille, as I've seen it. I believe
                  > it refers to the
                  > fact it can be rolled up])


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                • Ii Saburou
                  ... I would love to know. I m especially curious as to how well it will hold up. I would guess that, protection wise, it is no worse off than some brig. that
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 11, 2002
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                    On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, michael A wrote:

                    > well im working on 2 sets of tatami do right now. id
                    > be happy to show you,take pictures and/or tell you how
                    > it perfroms once im finished.
                    > --kiyohara

                    I would love to know. I'm especially curious as to how well it will hold
                    up. I would guess that, protection wise, it is no worse off than some
                    brig. that I've seen out there.

                    I need to build a new set of armor, but I'm thinking of doing a nanban do
                    next.

                    -Ii
                  • michael A
                    i tested a 3x3 section of plates at a practice. it took the abuse no problem. i was using 16ga plates and doubled up rings of 16ga 1/4 id. i will probably go
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 11, 2002
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                      i tested a 3x3 section of plates at a practice. it
                      took the abuse no problem. i was using 16ga plates and
                      doubled up rings of 16ga 1/4"id. i will probably go
                      down to 18ga plates on the next piece with the same
                      link construction.
                      --kiyohara
                      --- Ii Saburou <logan@...> wrote:
                      > On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, michael A wrote:
                      >
                      > > well im working on 2 sets of tatami do right now.
                      > id
                      > > be happy to show you,take pictures and/or tell you
                      > how
                      > > it perfroms once im finished.
                      > > --kiyohara
                      >
                      > I would love to know. I'm especially curious as to
                      > how well it will hold
                      > up. I would guess that, protection wise, it is no
                      > worse off than some
                      > brig. that I've seen out there.
                      >
                      > I need to build a new set of armor, but I'm thinking
                      > of doing a nanban do
                      > next.
                      >
                      > -Ii
                      >
                      >
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